Performers fight King’s Square street café scheme

Escapologist Rob Roy Collins in action in King’s Square Escapologist Rob Roy Collins in action in King’s Square

STREET artists and performers in York say plans to put tables and chairs in King’s Square will bring an end to decades of tradition in the city centre.

York’s new attraction, Chocolate: York’s Sweet Story, is hoping to extend its café by allowing customers to eat and drink at seven or eight tables in the square outside, up to 8pm.

But street artists who have long used the area to perform say the café extension would leave them with no room for an audience.

Escape artist Rob Roy Collins, who is leading the Save King’s Square campaign, said: “If they get planning permission it means there just won’t be room for audiences so performing would be pointless. It’s just going to kill us because there won’t be anywhere to perform.”

He said: “Aside from local acts, many of the world’s best street performers pass through York and perform at King’s Square.”

A spokesman for Chocolate: York’s Sweet Story said: “We love King’s Square as much as anyone. That’s why we chose to invest £2 million in it. We chose it because it is lively, vibrant and entertaining. We want buskers in the Square as much as they want to busk. We are very disappointed that they don’t want to listen to that message.

“It is our intention to sit alongside other users ie the three traders and buskers (when they are there which is not all the time) sharing a newly tidied-up Square with the general public also.”

The attraction said it had sought pre-planning advice from City of York Council before the formal submission in order to “best accommodate other users”.

The spokesman said: “We then revised our submission accordingly. It is now with the City Council to make a decision and we will accept whatever decision they make.”

Comments(52)

meme says...
10:33am Wed 25 Jul 12

Interesting
The officious planners recently made a local cafe remove ONE table and chair from Low Petergate on the basis it was detrimental to the historic nature of the City..Complete twaddle of course; it was just jobsworths interfering yet i suspect this is a done deal!

3.8liter says...
10:35am Wed 25 Jul 12

Hopefully it will.
How many york citizens want this anyway?
While there at it, arn't we all just fed up of the constant racket produced by the numerous, so called musicians who use amplified equipment in Parliament
Street. There are always several groups and their sounds all overlap producing one large noise.

chunkyyorkie says...
10:39am Wed 25 Jul 12

Just walked past Kings Square and seen the circled area proposed by the Chocolate place. It’s location is completely unworkable – and it does not take a genius to realise this. Either the buskers and street entertainers stay and do what they have been doing for decades or else the new Sweet place ruins the area and character of the place by putting tables and chair right in the middle. How will it be possible to “sit alongside” the buskers when the area they want is exactly where the crowds all stand watching the entertainers?! No contest in my mind – we have plenty enough places to sit and enjoy a coffee in the city, but there is no other place with a natural ‘stage’ setting for the entertainers to perform. Let’s hope common sense prevails. Incidentally it has been commented on numerous occasions that only since the Chocolate place opened someone thinks it is ok to use Kings Square as a car park for their 4x4. Coincidence?

Zetkin says...
10:39am Wed 25 Jul 12

There have been street performers in King's Square for as long as I can remember - I hope they don't get pushed out by yet another pretentious "pavement cafe".

m dee says...
11:07am Wed 25 Jul 12

chunkyyorkie wrote:
Just walked past Kings Square and seen the circled area proposed by the Chocolate place. It’s location is completely unworkable – and it does not take a genius to realise this. Either the buskers and street entertainers stay and do what they have been doing for decades or else the new Sweet place ruins the area and character of the place by putting tables and chair right in the middle. How will it be possible to “sit alongside” the buskers when the area they want is exactly where the crowds all stand watching the entertainers?! No contest in my mind – we have plenty enough places to sit and enjoy a coffee in the city, but there is no other place with a natural ‘stage’ setting for the entertainers to perform. Let’s hope common sense prevails. Incidentally it has been commented on numerous occasions that only since the Chocolate place opened someone thinks it is ok to use Kings Square as a car park for their 4x4. Coincidence?
Spot on well said, these cafes/ect are pushing the boundaries just to double their seating area without cost putting claim to a well used public area,yet should a small local business put out a advertising board they are told to move it on health and safety of partially sighted and for various other reasons.

bolero says...
11:11am Wed 25 Jul 12

I didn't realise that the street performers had a monopoly over Kings Square. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about the outcome because the so-called musicians are one of the reasons that I prefer to keep out. The cacophony of amplified noise is enough to drive you crazy.

york_chap says...
11:18am Wed 25 Jul 12

This is terrible news. Those poor 'street performers' might have to go out and find...heaven forbid...an actual job. Scary stuff.

eboracum says...
11:25am Wed 25 Jul 12

May we know if these outdoor cafe extensions pay extra business rates for hogging our space?
And if not - Why not ?

bolero says...
11:37am Wed 25 Jul 12

eboracum wrote:
May we know if these outdoor cafe extensions pay extra business rates for hogging our space? And if not - Why not ?
Who is the `our` you refer to please? Or are you confirming what I said,that the Street entertainers think they have a monopoly?

Woody G Mellor says...
11:45am Wed 25 Jul 12

york_chap wrote:
This is terrible news. Those poor 'street performers' might have to go out and find...heaven forbid...an actual job. Scary stuff.
Please define a "proper job".

Isn't going out each day doing what you do best, earning honest money, good enough?

Whilst entertaining tourists at the same time.

again says...
11:49am Wed 25 Jul 12

Zetkin wrote:
There have been street performers in King's Square for as long as I can remember - I hope they don't get pushed out by yet another pretentious "pavement cafe".
Totally agree. Whilst I don't watch the buskers these days it always brightens my day to see how much pleasure they give to their spectators.

Dominic123 says...
11:54am Wed 25 Jul 12

There are hundreds of places where you can sit outside to eat and drink. There are very few places in the country, maybe half a dozen where you can watch a good quality street show. If these tables and chairs are allowed, York will lose a marvelous tourist attraction. Something which is a joy for locals and visitors alike. Please think carefully about this. Don't replace something wonderful for something mundane.

TheTruthHurts says...
11:54am Wed 25 Jul 12

I must admit that I never stop to watch the entertainers on Kings Square but can see the pleasure that they bring to others. I would definitely consider what they do to be a proper job for sure.
'
If they are bumped out for a few extra cafe tables York will be a poorer place for it.

Some old bloke says...
11:57am Wed 25 Jul 12

Overall I think I'd prefer the buskers to the coffee. To digress slightly, I do think the council need to address the problem of volume generally. Some acts, like the bloke with the electric violin and some of the bands, seem to think they need to entertain people half a mile away. The overlap of sound, especially around Parliament Street, can be quite unpleasant.

danno99uk says...
12:19pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Some of the people who perform there are highly talented: plus many are popular. Perhaps just a bit of sensible co-ordination is required (ie. to ensure musician don't try to compete with one another), rather than just letting Costa coffee take over the public spaces....

York_visitor says...
12:21pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Well York_Chap
Most street entertainers are professional, self-employed, highly skilled performers. They pay taxes and have public liability insurance.
I greatly enjoy their work in adding colour and live entertainment to York,without cost to the rate payers of York. Kings Square and York's tourism appeal will be diminished if the Chocolate Story is allowed, for commercial interest, to go ahead with their proposal. I think York is already well provided for with tables and chairs.

Stressed Out says...
12:30pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Premises who have an outside seating area on the street as well as having planning permission, also require a pavement cafe licence from the Council which I beleive cost in the region of £550 per year. Also will require publiv laiability insurance for £5m. All this info is on councils web site

meme says...
12:30pm Wed 25 Jul 12

To answer a question... CoYC do charge rent to cafes for occupying outdoor space which is council owned.
It is also right to say the bigger more publicity conscious but ultimately doomed to fail attractions such as this get better treatment as they are perceived to bring more visitors to the City. However its my view that it is the architecture and mix of restaurants/retailer
s/buskers etc that makes York attractive to all so the smaller retailers should be helped first as they are the keystone to differentiating York from everywhere else
Street performance , noisy or not, is a crucial part of York's atmosphere and to jeapordise this for the sake of a cafe, masquerading as a chocolate museum would be criminal

whitehorse says...
12:31pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Not entering the debate on either side- though I do like the street entertainers- but I did have one thought. Isn't the space created by the removal of splash palace a possibility for some of the street entertainers. Certainly with regard to Rob Roy- this could allow him a potentially bigger audience. I say this not knowing if there are other plans for the area yet.

GooseTrackLane says...
12:34pm Wed 25 Jul 12

2 sunny days and now York needs more outdoor seating?

Personally, I'd much rather see buskers getting soaked than lots of garden furniture all over the place.

Bigger issue is the use of the square as a blue-badge car park. Get rid of the cars and deny this application please.

Opinion1 says...
12:47pm Wed 25 Jul 12

I wouldnt sit out side in kings square if the coffee was free, have they not seen how many scavanger pigeons there are!!....Vermin practically snatch food from your hand, if you have ever had fish & chips from low petergate and sat in the square you know what i mean. Silly idea, let the buskers stay!!

Buzz Light-year says...
12:52pm Wed 25 Jul 12

I fully support the protest.
The people whinging about the noise of musicians in King's Square obviously don't know what they are talking about, there are hardly ever people playing music there. It is mostly the full show escape artist, juggler, comedy crowd banter types.
Also the performers take care to tell the crowd that what they do is their job. What's a proper job?

It's not just the buskers either, there's the morris men who come and there's the ice cream wagon

Disgusting that a new "attraction" can just muscle in and expect to disrupt ages old tradition.

Old_Man says...
12:57pm Wed 25 Jul 12

There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of street performers in York. the only exceptions being the miming Pan Pipers and that dreadful "band" The Glass Caves. The Caves are at least original though as it's pretty obvious they are doing cover versions of songs they've never heard!

YSTClinguist says...
1:12pm Wed 25 Jul 12

I'd like to see more benches and 'thin' street furniture put in Kings Square for residents and tourists alike to sit on. No outside (business) cafe seating, no buskers. Buskers can move to the old splash palace site, and then we can leave Kings Square as a relatively quiet and special area for people to sit and admire the location whilst resting, snacking, or whatever they choose.

Woody G Mellor says...
1:13pm Wed 25 Jul 12

By the way. I saw The Clash busking in Kings Square back in 1985. Well, Joe Strummer, Paul Simmonon and the other ones. ;0)

Eugene F says...
1:23pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Street Entertainment is a vital aspect of the identity of our towns & cities. It affords them to assert their unique identity. In the case of York, there is a great deal of cultural richness to be celebrated in the city. Yet few things contribute so much at a relatively low cost, the benefits to ALL local businesses is plain to see. I would urge that the council recognise the contribution that the entertainers make to the fabric of the city and decline this planning application.

chunkyyorkie says...
1:46pm Wed 25 Jul 12

The Chocolate Sweet place been there 5 minutes and is already showing an arrogant attitude to the city’s history, character and tradition. Shame on them.
The crowds this afternoon were gathered watching the entertainment and had totally covered the whole area where the Sweet place want to put their seating area. It is comical!
Clearly if they get permission approved then the next (obvious) step of their plan would surely be to say their customers are been disturbed and interrupted by the shouting crowds jostling to see the entertainment.
And for the record Kings Square performers do not have amplified sound like they do in Parliament Street.

eboracum says...
1:51pm Wed 25 Jul 12

bolero wrote:
eboracum wrote: May we know if these outdoor cafe extensions pay extra business rates for hogging our space? And if not - Why not ?
Who is the `our` you refer to please? Or are you confirming what I said,that the Street entertainers think they have a monopoly?
To clarify - "our" as in - belonging the citizens of this fair city.

powerwatt says...
2:33pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Pedestrianse the area and use the whole street then.

The cafe culture is popular and should be encourage.

If the council gave a more space for disabled parking in the car parks there would be no need to allow access on the so called pedestrianised streets.

We know they wont do this as they would lose the revenue from having disabled spaces in the car parks, but it would make the City Centre more people friendly.

Jiffy says...
2:37pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Woody G Mellor wrote:
By the way. I saw The Clash busking in Kings Square back in 1985. Well, Joe Strummer, Paul Simmonon and the other ones. ;0)
And superb they were!!

idlehousewife says...
3:47pm Wed 25 Jul 12

I wonder who owns the Chocolate Story?
King's Square is a very busy thoroughfare and public right of way.

Zetkin says...
4:02pm Wed 25 Jul 12

No pavement cafes in 1985 - the Clash went to Wimpy in Davygate for some over-priced tea in cardboard cups, paid for with 1p & 2p pieces from their busking income.

Buzz Light-year says...
4:06pm Wed 25 Jul 12

idlehousewife wrote:
I wonder who owns the Chocolate Story? King's Square is a very busy thoroughfare and public right of way.
It's the Continuum Group. They are based off Walmgate.
They run a couple of other "attractions" elsewhere in the country.

keepitshut says...
4:32pm Wed 25 Jul 12

powerwatt wrote:
Pedestrianse the area and use the whole street then.

The cafe culture is popular and should be encourage.

If the council gave a more space for disabled parking in the car parks there would be no need to allow access on the so called pedestrianised streets.

We know they wont do this as they would lose the revenue from having disabled spaces in the car parks, but it would make the City Centre more people friendly.
I always thought there was a very large area of Piccadilly Car Park just for the use of disabled drivers?

idlehousewife says...
4:50pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Thanks for the information - have just checked out their website.

Chip monk says...
5:00pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Is it not morally wrong to pay street performers in cash?

Evil Ena says...
5:05pm Wed 25 Jul 12

keepitshut wrote:
powerwatt wrote: Pedestrianse the area and use the whole street then. The cafe culture is popular and should be encourage. If the council gave a more space for disabled parking in the car parks there would be no need to allow access on the so called pedestrianised streets. We know they wont do this as they would lose the revenue from having disabled spaces in the car parks, but it would make the City Centre more people friendly.
I always thought there was a very large area of Piccadilly Car Park just for the use of disabled drivers?
I think it's important to note that most of the buskers (mainly circle show buskers) on King's square run successful and professional shows. There are also the ice cream and lemonade stalls that I know do good trade as well.
Seems a tad undemocratic for a bigger business (but maybe not a more successfull one in this area) to run ramshackle over, and then curtail, the businesses that presently exist.

York1900 says...
5:09pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Leave King’s Square as it is we do not need tables there

Some buskers draw big crowds there and it is hard enough to get past the crowd but with tables it will make it impossible to get past

It seem that these attractions come to York then try to take over wanting to do this that and the other

would they of got planning permision for the attraction if the table requirement was in the plans at the start

newbeginings says...
5:26pm Wed 25 Jul 12

I was under the impression that Chocolate Story was not such a big hit with the public - having made a number of staff redundant recently with visitor numbers being down. Personally I'm for the individual street performers and groups strutting their stuff and entertaining us all . Art is a personal opinion and if you don't like it you can always move on and stop watching and listening - just the same as you would if you didn't like a particular radio station or TV programme and choose to turn it off and change channel - this country allows you choice . Use it !

Evil Ena says...
5:40pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Hear Hear!

If things are not working out at the Chocolate Story then I don't see that turning it into another outdoor cafe is the way forward.

They should take a tip from an old busker! If the act isn't working then take some time to make it better.

Melissa Sanders says...
6:59pm Wed 25 Jul 12

If they wanted outdoor space why didn't they consider that before creating their pathetic 'attraction' in this area?! Their short sighted vision will get them closed, hopefully.

If you want to learn about chocolate without the disneyland attempt at storytelling, I suggest you visit York Cocoa House. Authentic, understated and fitting to the history of York.

Melissa Sanders says...
7:00pm Wed 25 Jul 12

And bravo Evil Ena! Well said!

pedalling paul says...
10:04pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Choclate story have had some pretty rough reviews on Trip Advisor, and might do well to put their internal house in order before contemplating any expansion.

Millies Cookies over the road had a simlar request turned down a few years ago.

NoMorePlease says...
10:36pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Chip monk wrote:
Is it not morally wrong to pay street performers in cash?
Oh very good indeed

yorkonafork says...
10:39pm Wed 25 Jul 12

Woody G Mellor wrote:
york_chap wrote:
This is terrible news. Those poor 'street performers' might have to go out and find...heaven forbid...an actual job. Scary stuff.
Please define a "proper job".

Isn't going out each day doing what you do best, earning honest money, good enough?

Whilst entertaining tourists at the same time.
I'd like to see this answered as well. What a tosspot comment by York_chap.

Magicman! says...
2:12am Thu 26 Jul 12

Why not just freshen up the whole square and make it look nice and new (a bit like library square) but with more benches and places to sit - as general seating and not specific to some commercial premises. The licensed buskers would benefit from more people watching as they can sit down.

m dee says...
10:05am Thu 26 Jul 12

powerwatt wrote:
Pedestrianse the area and use the whole street then.

The cafe culture is popular and should be encourage.

If the council gave a more space for disabled parking in the car parks there would be no need to allow access on the so called pedestrianised streets.

We know they wont do this as they would lose the revenue from having disabled spaces in the car parks, but it would make the City Centre more people friendly.
How could you use the whole street as access would be needed for emergency vehicles and deliveries ect ?

m dee says...
10:15am Thu 26 Jul 12

keepitshut wrote:
powerwatt wrote:
Pedestrianse the area and use the whole street then.

The cafe culture is popular and should be encourage.

If the council gave a more space for disabled parking in the car parks there would be no need to allow access on the so called pedestrianised streets.

We know they wont do this as they would lose the revenue from having disabled spaces in the car parks, but it would make the City Centre more people friendly.
I always thought there was a very large area of Piccadilly Car Park just for the use of disabled drivers?
keepitshut says.
I always thought there was a very large area of Piccadilly Car Park just for the use of disabled drivers?

Yes there is but why would they want to park at the top of there if wanted to shop in say Goodramgate for example ?.

steve_york says...
1:20pm Thu 26 Jul 12

you should have street performers, imagine not having any in York, would be pretty boring and tourists like it! otherwise we all get these so called proper jobs and hide away in offices, farms and building sites etc. some of these street performers have become big names and end up on CD's you probably listen to at home, you have to start somewhere to get your confidence, style etc...its a good thing, as long as your half decent at it!!

keepitshut says...
6:43pm Thu 26 Jul 12

Magicman! wrote:
Why not just freshen up the whole square and make it look nice and new (a bit like library square) but with more benches and places to sit - as general seating and not specific to some commercial premises. The licensed buskers would benefit from more people watching as they can sit down.
There were some benches.......but Sir Ron Cooke and his "de-cluttering" saw that they were removed.

Lerinda says...
3:09pm Fri 27 Jul 12

chunkyyorkie wrote:
Just walked past Kings Square and seen the circled area proposed by the Chocolate place. It’s location is completely unworkable – and it does not take a genius to realise this. Either the buskers and street entertainers stay and do what they have been doing for decades or else the new Sweet place ruins the area and character of the place by putting tables and chair right in the middle. How will it be possible to “sit alongside” the buskers when the area they want is exactly where the crowds all stand watching the entertainers?! No contest in my mind – we have plenty enough places to sit and enjoy a coffee in the city, but there is no other place with a natural ‘stage’ setting for the entertainers to perform. Let’s hope common sense prevails. Incidentally it has been commented on numerous occasions that only since the Chocolate place opened someone thinks it is ok to use Kings Square as a car park for their 4x4. Coincidence?
Perhaps the traffic wardens should be on the lookout for that 4 x 4.
It seems to me that if the Sweet Story owners were rather less greedy (£10 to walk through half a dozen rooms and taste a bit of chocolate!) they might have more customers for the attraction itself and not need to try to balance the books by cluttering up the square with tables.

Magicman! says...
2:38am Sat 28 Jul 12

keepitshut wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
Why not just freshen up the whole square and make it look nice and new (a bit like library square) but with more benches and places to sit - as general seating and not specific to some commercial premises. The licensed buskers would benefit from more people watching as they can sit down.
There were some benches.......but Sir Ron Cooke and his "de-cluttering" saw that they were removed.
Well that's typical isn't it... some old bloke who probably has slight OCD about things looking minimalist, and now people don't have somewhere sit!

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