City leaders move to axe York's ftr buses (From York Press)
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City leaders move to axe York's ftr buses
11:10am Monday 26th December 2011 in News
By Mark Stead, mark.stead@thepress.co.uk
TALKS are being held about how to replace York's controversial ftr buses, after the city's council leader confirmed they are to be axed.
The Labour group which controls City of York Council vowed, in the run-up to May's local elections, that if it won power it would end an agreement with First York to operate the distinctive purple bendy buses.
The party said it was now seeking alternatives to the ftr as part of a proposed wider package of public transport improvements, which will be discussed at a meeting next week.
The buses have been criticised in some quarters since their arrival more than five years ago, due to their size and claims that they cause problems for other motorists and damage the city's roads. Labour pledged in its election manifesto to work towards scrapping the services, describing them as "a costly disaster" which had absorbed £1.5 million of public money.
Cabinet member for city strategy Dave Merrett said: "In May, we decided not to renew the agreement between First and the council on the ftr.
"Discussions have been taking place about how to provide an acceptable replacement for users of the No. 4 services to the University of York and Acomb, and this is being discussed along with other possible public transport improvements."
Next week, Coun Dave Merrett, will also be asked to approve a study into ways of improving to the quality, reliability and punctuality of York's bus network.
Proposals include a city-wide survey to ask residents what they want from bus services, holding further surveys on buses and at key bus stops, consulting with parish councils, ward committees, residents' associations and the 11 companies which operate bus services around York, and involving organisations such as Visit York, York Youth Council and York Independent Living Network.
Coun Merrett said: "The council is committed to working with bus passengers, bus operators and key local stakeholders to develop and deliver a bus network which better meets the aspirations and needs of existing and potential new bus passengers,"
First York was unavailable for comment on the ftr issue.
Comments(60)
RingoStarr
says...
11:48am Mon 26 Dec 11
Tom6187 wrote:Good Riddance...but VERY good point!
Great news but, will the conductors be out of a job?
Buzz Light-year
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12:01pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Bye FTR, you won't be missed.
Deety
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12:13pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Von_Dutch
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12:40pm Mon 26 Dec 11
sheps lad
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12:47pm Mon 26 Dec 11
bolero
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12:50pm Mon 26 Dec 11
ndevr
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12:58pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Deety wrote:how come the number 1, coastliner and EYMS services are mainly run using double deckers without conductors?
At last someone is going to do what they promised and we are going to get rid of the bendy buses, regarding replacements , bring back double deckers and the conductors will be needed and not lose their jobs.
ouseswimmer
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1:29pm Mon 26 Dec 11
yawn..
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1:29pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Torycouncil2015
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2:03pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Woody Mellor
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2:11pm Mon 26 Dec 11
bolero wrote:Dont forget The Barbican Center and the swimming pool.
Yet another example of money squandered by the Lib Dems. How much have these useless people cost the City of York during the time that they were in power. There are too many instances like this one and Clifton Green junction to name but two. I am not a Labour supporter nor indeed a fanatical supporter of any particular party but I hope that the Lib Dems never ever get the chance to govern this City again. They are a time wasting, money wasting group of would-be politicians who do just not have a clue. They are intent only in persuing their own selfish ends purely for the sake of the party with no foresight whatsoever or intention to improve the lot of the people they purport to serve.
Glenyork
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2:25pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Geoffers
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2:55pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Torycouncil2015 wrote:It is up to the customer to set the service requirements and that should include the vehicles to be used.
Sorry as I understand it First are a private company. Surely they can use whatever buses they want to use. Only in communist countries do governments dictate what transportation will be used. That renders Coun Merret and all other posts on here irrelevant
Wouldn't want open topped buses would we?
CynicaloldGit
says...
3:02pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Torycouncil2015 wrote:That's the same kind of stupid argument the Tories used at the beginning of WW2, that the RAF couldn't bomb German industry as they were private property.
Sorry as I understand it First are a private company. Surely they can use whatever buses they want to use. Only in communist countries do governments dictate what transportation will be used. That renders Coun Merret and all other posts on here irrelevant
No Torycouncil, the proper council simply tells the operator to change their busses or look elsewhere for a contract......Oh, and your Boris has just done similar in London
jibber jabber
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3:41pm Mon 26 Dec 11
CynicaloldGit
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4:13pm Mon 26 Dec 11
jibber jabber wrote:Very true JJ but, it is simply more money wasted on these stupid things. I don't begrudge council tennants getting something out of this at the time (didn't home owners on the bus route get the same deal) however, who why and how did these stupid leviathans ever get the go ahead in York?
Council house tenants on the n°4 route should be grateful for the driveways installed during the introduction of ftr. At least they have something to show for the millions of pounds wasted on the fangled-dangled idea!
againstthecuts
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4:34pm Mon 26 Dec 11
TERRIER3
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5:16pm Mon 26 Dec 11
yorkie39
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5:40pm Mon 26 Dec 11
tommyinyork
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6:15pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Some conductors lives depend on the ftr, they have families to feed, bills to pay, homes to live in.
And as for the council they purely have no say in the matter at all !
I suggest people actually read into these things more rather than celebrate the fact conductors will lose their jobs.
tommyinyork
says...
6:16pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Some conductors lives depend on the ftr, they have families to feed, bills to pay, homes to live in.
And as for the council they purely have no say in the matter at all !
I suggest people actually read into these things more rather than celebrate the fact conductors will lose their jobs.
bloodaxe
says...
6:27pm Mon 26 Dec 11
ndevr wrote:The DD buses on the 1 route would be fine if they were modern. The current fleet is about ten or eleven years old and looks it. I've seen modern DDs run by First in Edinburgh and Leeds but York seems to be the dumping ground for the old ones. Couple that with the awful state of some bus stops -( how on earth can any city be proud of that ghastly shack on Haxby Road by the St John halls ?)- and there's little wonder that public transport in York is slipping from the good service which was once provided. I speak as a frequent bus rider.
Deety wrote:how come the number 1, coastliner and EYMS services are mainly run using double deckers without conductors?
At last someone is going to do what they promised and we are going to get rid of the bendy buses, regarding replacements , bring back double deckers and the conductors will be needed and not lose their jobs.
bloodaxe
says...
6:30pm Mon 26 Dec 11
againstthecuts wrote:AND CORRECT SPELLING !
BRING BACK DOUBLE DECKER BUSSES!!!
the butler
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6:37pm Mon 26 Dec 11
marvell
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6:45pm Mon 26 Dec 11
If scrapping them saves money then great - if it costs money then Labour should not go ahead and do it. I'm sick of this "it was in our manifesto" claptrap from Labour and their brain donor of a leader.
They should only go ahead with this if thier if proven cost savings by such a move.
pedalling paul
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6:53pm Mon 26 Dec 11
was york now rotherham
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7:04pm Mon 26 Dec 11
bloodaxe wrote:if you think york is a dumping ground for the old first fleet then i think you had better spend a day in south yorkshire looking at all the first buses around hear they are mostley on the old plates with singular letter in front off the numbers before the final 3 letters forinstace in stead of the plate been like ys 140 nny we have them like s 140 yyh now how old is that style.
ndevr wrote:The DD buses on the 1 route would be fine if they were modern. The current fleet is about ten or eleven years old and looks it. I've seen modern DDs run by First in Edinburgh and Leeds but York seems to be the dumping ground for the old ones. Couple that with the awful state of some bus stops -( how on earth can any city be proud of that ghastly shack on Haxby Road by the St John halls ?)- and there's little wonder that public transport in York is slipping from the good service which was once provided. I speak as a frequent bus rider.Deety wrote: At last someone is going to do what they promised and we are going to get rid of the bendy buses, regarding replacements , bring back double deckers and the conductors will be needed and not lose their jobs.how come the number 1, coastliner and EYMS services are mainly run using double deckers without conductors?
James Street Bare Knuckle Gypsy Fighter
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7:33pm Mon 26 Dec 11
James Street Bare Knuckle Gypsy Fighter
says...
7:34pm Mon 26 Dec 11
James Street Bare Knuckle Gypsy Fighter
says...
7:35pm Mon 26 Dec 11
tommyinyork wrote:It's doesn't matter if it's the FTR or a double decker - it's utterly disgraceful the way FIRST operate the bus services in this city. The VAST majority of staff are miserable clever and rude. The buses are constantly late and on many occasions they dont turn up. And if you ever make a complaint you end up talking to somebody in Bradford with no Knowledge of this city. York city council should step in here and regulate the buses for this city. From next year I will be travelling by car instead of bus, and if the FIRST doesnt have a major overhaul then many people will be doing the same.
Some very selfish people on here.
Some conductors lives depend on the ftr, they have families to feed, bills to pay, homes to live in.
And as for the council they purely have no say in the matter at all !
I suggest people actually read into these things more rather than celebrate the fact conductors will lose their jobs.
bolero
says...
7:37pm Mon 26 Dec 11
`marvel` is obviously either a Lib Dem Councillor, a hopeless hopeful or a misguided supporter of that sad party. As I pointed out in my previous posting I do not support any political party so, therefore, have no political axe to grind. I just feel it is an absolute disgrace the money that was wasted by this incompetent band of useless actors. I have no need to elaborate on the various money wasting schemes because they are gradually being brought to light on here. The decisions now being taken are not necessarily politically motivated, but because most of those schemes have proved to be not worth the paper they were written on, have proved unworkable or like ftr, the contract is drawing to a close and totally unsatisfactory and the opportunity can be taken to adopt something better. Unfortunately the money has already been spent and wasted by the aforesaid party.
James Street Bare Knuckle Gypsy Fighter
says...
7:44pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Sillybillies
says...
8:29pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Hardly an open market for bus companies to compete in was it? What we got was the poor service of what amounted to a monopoly, and "purple slugs" running around empty most of the day.
pedalling paul
says...
8:32pm Mon 26 Dec 11
CoYC have created a voluntary partnership with York's bus operators, and have powers (but not always the cash) to subsidise non-commercial services.
FTR is a dream for mobility restricted passengers and I doubt that a conventional bus can offer like flexibility.
magic cat
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8:40pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Sillybillies
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8:47pm Mon 26 Dec 11
CoYC have created a voluntary partnership with York's bus operators, and have powers (but not always the cash) to subsidise non-commercial services.
Not voted for by me, and the sooner it stops the better so as to courage real competition.
Sarah York
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9:13pm Mon 26 Dec 11
tommyinyork wrote:Alright, calm down Mugsy.
Some very selfish people on here. Some conductors lives depend on the ftr, they have families to feed, bills to pay, homes to live in. And as for the council they purely have no say in the matter at all ! I suggest people actually read into these things more rather than celebrate the fact conductors will lose their jobs.
Firstly, as pointed out above, the FTR's were never intended on having conductors so they were 'lucky' to get the job in the first place.
Secondly, you talk about being selfish yet a new service (which could still need said conductors working for them) which will benefit the people of York in a number of ways should not go ahead because of a few conductors. Applying a new breed of service is hardly a new concept, I don't see why they shouldn't try and make things better. People lose there jobs or get moved on all the time. That's life sadly.
I think some people are up their own arses about the number 4 'customer sevice' though to be fair. I use it a lot and a number, most indeed, are quite pleasant. Granted some of the drivers on other buses are knobs but that's a different story. These lot specifically are ok.
TERRIER3
says...
10:49pm Mon 26 Dec 11
the butler wrote:some more spelling checks needed....center is american, this is old york not new york, so please use the correct ENGLISH version...CENTRE
I think that the double Decker needed to be modernized, ie type of material used in its construction and seating quality improved, they were a great advantage in the city center!.
TERRIER3
says...
10:56pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Sillybillies wrote:First run most of their services commercially so you are not putting much of your cash into them, so if you really have a beef with tax payers money going to bus companys i suggest you turn your attentions to that french lot TRANSDEV and local company PULLMAN....
CoYC have created a voluntary partnership with York's bus operators, and have powers (but not always the cash) to subsidise non-commercial services.
Not voted for by me, and the sooner it stops the better so as to courage real competition.
gmc_1963
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10:56pm Mon 26 Dec 11
skipsea
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11:18pm Mon 26 Dec 11
Magicman!
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1:29am Tue 27 Dec 11
sheps lad wrote:37, 65 (wright eclipse gemini, as used by Coastliner), and 49 seated for the Mercedes Citaro bendys used on the P&R's. The smallest buses that Transdev York/Coastliner run (Optare Versa - the buses with the huge overhang and pointy nose at the front - that say tadcaster on the side but are used on the 24 and 26) seat 40 people. An FTR is over twice the size, probably twice and heavy, twice as polluting, yet seats less.
How many seats on a FTR, double decker or bendy bus? No44 use double deckers without a conductor.
If the will was there to keep jobs for the conductors and to keep services running quickly, double deckers could be purchased which were dual door, and passengers could board at either door like they do on a tram.
As for how to improve the experience of people using buses, there are good examples in PTE areas like Newcastle and Manchester as to what information to display at bus stops, how real-time information SHOULD work, and the waiting environment provided for passengers.
And if you want to see how good the inside of a double decker can look, then see Autocar's pictures of the Borismaster - http://www.autocar.c
o.uk/News/NewsArticl
e/AllCars/260508/
If you can get hold of the correct facts and figures, and not the distorted ones sent out by the council, you will find that bus useage on First routes went down over the last 2 years on pretty much every route - with one of the worst affected being the absolutely terrible number 5 service, easily the least reliable service in the city. And then we get jokes of services like the 13, that end at 5pm! If Stagecoach in Cumbria can run a 20 mile service from Keswick to Kendal after 5.30pm then why can't first york run a 2 mile route from monks cross into york?
All the FTR has been is a Fake Tram Route, a Poor Mans Tram, and a result of talks that Alistair Darling had with First just before schemes like the Leeds Metrotram was axed, because the tram would have run in direct competition with First's biggest moneyspinners. The FTRs were trialled in York (a) to keep the heat off Leeds who had just lost their tram idea, so people didn't realise the purple slugs were what they were getting instead of trams, (b) because york is a bit less significant in terms of passenger numbers compared to Leeds, so if something went wrong it'd be less of a disaster in York than it would have been in Leeds.
thefutureis
says...
9:02am Tue 27 Dec 11
CynicaloldGit wrote:oh dear oh dear you dont understand do you. There is no contract between the council and the operators. Operators set routes. the council can choose to subsidise in them in areas where the bus company do not want to go. Under this system you may be able to specify bus types but it would be horrendously expensive. Basically you are saying to First - we would like you to operate a loss making service. We will therefore provide you with financial compensation. Thats what happens now. You are now suggesting the council does the same and asks First to buy new buses to do it. Of course they'll oblige!!!!!! Please take time to understand the system befiore trying to insult me
Torycouncil2015 wrote:That's the same kind of stupid argument the Tories used at the beginning of WW2, that the RAF couldn't bomb German industry as they were private property.
Sorry as I understand it First are a private company. Surely they can use whatever buses they want to use. Only in communist countries do governments dictate what transportation will be used. That renders Coun Merret and all other posts on here irrelevant
No Torycouncil, the proper council simply tells the operator to change their busses or look elsewhere for a contract......Oh, and your Boris has just done similar in London
thefutureis
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9:06am Tue 27 Dec 11
thefutureis
says...
9:07am Tue 27 Dec 11
LibDem
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9:07am Tue 27 Dec 11
1. The £1 million expenditure undertaken in 2004 was spent on road repairs and the provision of off-street parking on the number 4 route. Some was spent on easing the radii at junctions to the benefit of all road users. None was spent on the ftr vehicles which were procured by First.
2. The agreement referred to in the article expired last June (2011). The agreement required First to continue to run the ftr for at least 5 years. After that First were free either to continue the service or change the way that the number 4 is provided. That was their choice and the Council cannot force them to change. They have chosen to continue the ftr service.
3. First could choose now to switch the ftr buses onto one of the new Park and Ride services and then backfill the number 4 route with new buses. Or they could cascade old buses into the City from elsewhere in the country.
4. Surveys of passengers that actually use the number 4 service have produced higher satisfaction levels than with comparable services elsewhere in York (and indeed the country).
5. Double deckers have a role to play. But they have negative points. These include lower capacity on short journeys (no standing upstairs), slower access, and limited facilities for people with disabilities. They cannot be used on routes where there are low bridges.
6. The new Routemaster style double deckers being provided in London cost 4 times more than an ftr. Extra costs would be passed on to passengers in the form of higher fares.
7. Far from implementing their manifesto promises on public transport, all Labour are now doing is stalling by staging yet another "public consultation". They promised a franchised system where the network, frequency and pricing of public transport would have been set by the Council and operators would have tendered to run all or part of it. Labour now realise that the Council Taxpayer cannot afford to subsidise such a system.
8. Labour are trying their old tactic of playing up a populist policy in the hope that it will divert attention away from the real issue (how to sustain an affordable and reliable bus service in the City)
thefutureis
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9:08am Tue 27 Dec 11
tommyinyork
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9:51am Tue 27 Dec 11
skipsea wrote:That is the most stupidest and dumbest comment i have ever heard.
It just means First will buy buses to replace them from Poland as they usually do.
WDYWAC
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6:19pm Tue 27 Dec 11
brummiebob
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6:52pm Tue 27 Dec 11
TERRIER3 wrote:York not york, New York not new york, American not american surely? Pedant.
the butler wrote:some more spelling checks needed....center is american, this is old york not new york, so please use the correct ENGLISH version...CENTRE
I think that the double Decker needed to be modernized, ie type of material used in its construction and seating quality improved, they were a great advantage in the city center!.
skipsea
says...
8:53pm Tue 27 Dec 11
tommyinyork wrote:Then tommyinyork you must be brain dead as most, if not all, of the non FTR buses operated by First in York are on Polish built Volvo chassis with Wright bodywork from NI.
skipsea wrote:That is the most stupidest and dumbest comment i have ever heard.
It just means First will buy buses to replace them from Poland as they usually do.
A great help to our economy considering Wright is showered with taxpayers money as the NI economy is considered in need of help for some reason the I want to forget about.
greenmonkey
says...
12:27am Wed 28 Dec 11
daveyboy25
says...
12:51am Wed 28 Dec 11
daveyboy25
says...
12:51am Wed 28 Dec 11
yorkandproud
says...
8:33am Wed 28 Dec 11
daveyboy25 wrote:FTR buses a tourist attraction. Please! daveyboy25 comes in with a late entry for the most stupid comment of the year.
york will also lose by removing ftrs as they have become a tourist attraction, also the hosts who make travelling by bus more enjoyable will be out of work so up goes unemployment. as for ftr drivers being miserable well they are not they are concentrating on 2 cameras that shows people getting on and off the bus
brummiebob
says...
5:55pm Wed 28 Dec 11
yorkandproud wrote:FTR buses are safe for cyclists! I think I win the 2011 title thanks.
daveyboy25 wrote:FTR buses a tourist attraction. Please! daveyboy25 comes in with a late entry for the most stupid comment of the year.
york will also lose by removing ftrs as they have become a tourist attraction, also the hosts who make travelling by bus more enjoyable will be out of work so up goes unemployment. as for ftr drivers being miserable well they are not they are concentrating on 2 cameras that shows people getting on and off the bus
Dennis.Dart
says...
10:28am Thu 29 Dec 11
Stevie D
says...
1:43pm Thu 29 Dec 11
CynicaloldGit wrote:
the proper council simply tells the operator to change their busses or look elsewhere for a contract
First run the FTRs commercially, they do not have a contract with the council, and if they choose to run them then they can run them. The only way the council could stop them would be to put restrictions on the roads themselves, but these would also apply to lorries and other vehicles.
bloodaxe wrote:
I've seen modern DDs run by First in Edinburgh and Leeds but York seems to be the dumping ground for the old ones.
What short memories some people have. About 11 years ago, First York bought a fleet of entirely brand new buses, including the double deckers still in use. Since then, they've bought loads more brand new buses. The usual lifespan for a bus is 12–15 years, so it isn't surprising that they haven't been replaced yet.
LibDem wrote:
Double deckers ... cannot be used on routes where there are low bridges
The only routes First York run that go under low bridges are the 2 and 5, double-deckers can be (and are) used quite happily on all other routes.
daveyboy25 wrote:
york will also lose by removing ftrs as they have become a tourist attraction
Huh? The FTRs are used from the university and Acomb/Foxwood. They don't attract tourists, apart from maybe a handful of bus-spotters who don't want to go to Leeds!
SuperChris
says...
8:06am Sat 31 Dec 11
Tom6187 says...
11:29am Mon 26 Dec 11