'It’s okay to shoplift' says York priest (From York Press)
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'It’s okay to shoplift' says Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda
9:30am Monday 21st December 2009 in News
By Gavin Aitchison, gavin.aitchison@thepress.co.uk
Father Tim Jones
WORSHIPPERS at one York church got a shock when their parish priest used the last Sunday before Christmas to advocate shoplifting.
Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda, broke off from the traditional Nativity story yesterday, and said stealing from large national chains was sometimes the best option many vulnerable people had.
He told the congregation: “My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither.
“I would ask that they do not steal from small, family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices. I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need.”
He said he offered the advice “with a heavy heart”, and wished society would recognise that bureaucratic ineptitude and systemic delay had created an “invitation and incentive to crime for people struggling to cope”.
Father Jones said society had failed many needy people, and said it was far better that they shoplift than turn to more degrading or violent options such as prostitution, mugging or burglary. He cited an example of an ex-prisoner who had received less than £100, including a crisis loan, in the six weeks since his release.
He said his advice did not contradict the Bible’s eighth commandment, not to steal, saying God’s love for the poor and despised outweighed the property rights of the rich.
He added: “Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift. The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are. “Rather, this is a call for our society no longer to treat its most vulnerable people with indifference and contempt.”
He said providing “inadequate or clumsy social support” was “monumental, catastrophic folly”.
Vale of York MP Anne McIntosh, who has campaigned in Parliament for stronger sentences for shoplifters, said there had been an “over-commercialisation” of Christmas, putting more pressure on people to spend, but said: “I cannot condone inciting anyone to commit a criminal offence.”
She said shoplifting was “a crime against the whole local community and society”.
A North Yorkshire Police spokesman said: “First and foremost, shoplifting is a criminal offence and to justify this course of action under any circumstances is highly irresponsible.
“Turning or returning to crime will only make matters worse, that is a guarantee.”
He said the force recognised that some people found themselves in difficult circumstances but said support was readily available and must be sought.
* Full transcript of the sermon given by Father Tim Jones>>
Clergyman caused a stir over logos
THIS isn’t the first time Father Tim Jones has courted controversy and caused a stir in the retail sector.
In May last year, he walked into Stationery Box in High Ousegate and started throwing items bearing the Playboy logo on to the floor.
He said he was protesting over the use of the porn empire’s logo on products aimed at children.
He said the shop displayed Playboy products alongside Mickey Mouse and Winnie The Pooh stationery. Father Jones encouraged shoppers in the store to sign a petition and staff removed the items from sale, while they reviewed their policy.
• Support is available to people in need, said City of York Council leader Andrew Waller.
“We do provide support, through our own services and also the Citizens’ Advice Bureau, the Credit Union and a whole host of agencies there to help the most vulnerable,” he said.
He said times were tough for many people but said the council was doing all it could to keep people on the right side of the law.
Comments(93)
nobodyknowswhoiam
says...
10:01am Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:could I ask you what you took?
If I found myself in a position of extreme poverty due to circumstances beyond my control and my health at risk then I would without a doubt steal from places such as Tesco. And I would advise others to do the same. I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!
Saywhat
says...
10:10am Mon 21 Dec 09
Upon arrest, the culprit will quote Tim's words and expect to get away with.
It's laughable. What is the world coming too.
moleculeman
says...
10:16am Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
10:25am Mon 21 Dec 09
nobodyknowswhoiam wrote:Nothing, honest! But I would if I had too.
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:could I ask you what you took?
If I found myself in a position of extreme poverty due to circumstances beyond my control and my health at risk then I would without a doubt steal from places such as Tesco. And I would advise others to do the same. I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
10:27am Mon 21 Dec 09
Soothsayer17
says...
10:32am Mon 21 Dec 09
.
Where will he stand if someone thieves some Playboy bedsheets from their local supermarket?
AngryandFrustrated
says...
10:37am Mon 21 Dec 09
It is comments like this from so called "leaders" of our community that give rise to the dumbing down of various offences. I have no problem helping out the needy. However, they also have to help themselves out to some degree. I used to work in this area and to be blunt, I do not see why the likes of me and you should pay more for our goods, due to shoplifting costs being passed on, because some addict wants to shoot smack into his or her arm.
There are some very needy people out there - however, a lot of needy people do not feel the urge to go out, break the law and make other people pay. Having worked with addicts, I know how needy they can be. However, a significant proportion of them do not want to get off drink or drugs - they only say they do because it looks good in court when you come up for sentencing.
Maybe someone should go and steal the collection box from this Priest's church. No doubt it will be stolen by a "needy" person who should be forgiven by the flock. However, methinks a large proportion of the flock will think theft is theft, whether or not it is from a national chain of shops or a charity box from a church.
gerry1962
says...
10:59am Mon 21 Dec 09
WA
says...
11:00am Mon 21 Dec 09
Vauxhall Viva
says...
11:03am Mon 21 Dec 09
yorkandproud
says...
11:04am Mon 21 Dec 09
AngryandFrustrated wrote:Firstly, this man is not a catholic priest, he is the vicar of St Laurences in Lawrence Street. Why he insists in calling himself Father Tim appears to come from years he spent in the USA.
This priest is a disgrace to the Catholic church and should be sacked. His comments should be rammed down his throat until he gags on them! It is comments like this from so called "leaders" of our community that give rise to the dumbing down of various offences. I have no problem helping out the needy. However, they also have to help themselves out to some degree. I used to work in this area and to be blunt, I do not see why the likes of me and you should pay more for our goods, due to shoplifting costs being passed on, because some addict wants to shoot smack into his or her arm. There are some very needy people out there - however, a lot of needy people do not feel the urge to go out, break the law and make other people pay. Having worked with addicts, I know how needy they can be. However, a significant proportion of them do not want to get off drink or drugs - they only say they do because it looks good in court when you come up for sentencing. Maybe someone should go and steal the collection box from this Priest's church. No doubt it will be stolen by a "needy" person who should be forgiven by the flock. However, methinks a large proportion of the flock will think theft is theft, whether or not it is from a national chain of shops or a charity box from a church.
He seems to be full of strange ideas, and is currently doing a fine job alienating himself from the older members of the congregation at St Laurences with his ideas. Examples of which are having the pews all removed from the church and having seats put in. Also allowing children to run around during certain services. He perhaps looks upon himself as "Modern", but several long standing parishioners are now attending other churches. The bishop needs to have a word with this loose cannon
yorkandproud
says...
11:04am Mon 21 Dec 09
AngryandFrustrated wrote:Firstly, this man is not a catholic priest, he is the vicar of St Laurences in Lawrence Street. Why he insists in calling himself Father Tim appears to come from years he spent in the USA.
This priest is a disgrace to the Catholic church and should be sacked. His comments should be rammed down his throat until he gags on them! It is comments like this from so called "leaders" of our community that give rise to the dumbing down of various offences. I have no problem helping out the needy. However, they also have to help themselves out to some degree. I used to work in this area and to be blunt, I do not see why the likes of me and you should pay more for our goods, due to shoplifting costs being passed on, because some addict wants to shoot smack into his or her arm. There are some very needy people out there - however, a lot of needy people do not feel the urge to go out, break the law and make other people pay. Having worked with addicts, I know how needy they can be. However, a significant proportion of them do not want to get off drink or drugs - they only say they do because it looks good in court when you come up for sentencing. Maybe someone should go and steal the collection box from this Priest's church. No doubt it will be stolen by a "needy" person who should be forgiven by the flock. However, methinks a large proportion of the flock will think theft is theft, whether or not it is from a national chain of shops or a charity box from a church.
He seems to be full of strange ideas, and is currently doing a fine job alienating himself from the older members of the congregation at St Laurences with his ideas. Examples of which are having the pews all removed from the church and having seats put in. Also allowing children to run around during certain services. He perhaps looks upon himself as "Modern", but several long standing parishioners are now attending other churches. The bishop needs to have a word with this loose cannon
Get-a-grip
says...
11:08am Mon 21 Dec 09
Soothsayer17
says...
11:21am Mon 21 Dec 09
.
That's quite witty when you think about it!
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
11:25am Mon 21 Dec 09
Soothsayer17 wrote:Yep, I got it.
YorkandProud wrote: "The bishop needs to have a word with this loose cannon."
.
That's quite witty when you think about it!
Freetrade
says...
11:25am Mon 21 Dec 09
Garrowby turnoffs mother in law
says...
11:25am Mon 21 Dec 09
Get-a-grip wrote:I think you should get a grip!
For inciting people to commit criminal offences, I now expect the Archbishop of York to remove Jones from his job and sack him.
Guy Fawkes
says...
11:26am Mon 21 Dec 09
'I would ask that they do not steal from small, family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to THE REST OF US in the form of higher prices.' (my emphasis)
This argument only holds water if you accept that 'the rest of us' are all a lot wealthier than the thieves.
By the same token, would he advocate hard-up motorists driving uninsured, on the grounds that 'the rest of us' can easily afford the extra £40 or so on our premiums to pay for the accidents they cause?
Yet another reason why organised religion has nothing whatsoever to say to anyone with a shred of intelligence. And it's not as if the church doesn't have form in this regard: my favourite example is Sentamu delivering a sermon in which he told people to cut down on unnecessary energy use to reduce global warming, from the pulpit of a building that was needlessly floodlit.
The Vicar
says...
11:32am Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:No wondered this country is on its knees....
nobodyknowswhoiam wrote:Nothing, honest! But I would if I had too.The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote: If I found myself in a position of extreme poverty due to circumstances beyond my control and my health at risk then I would without a doubt steal from places such as Tesco. And I would advise others to do the same. I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!could I ask you what you took?
Theft is theft, whether from Tesco’s or indeed smaller outlets
This joke of a Father needs sacking and locking up...
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
11:40am Mon 21 Dec 09
The Vicar wrote:Vicar, if your saying that you would not steal if you really had to, then your a downright liar.
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:No wondered this country is on its knees....
nobodyknowswhoiam wrote:Nothing, honest! But I would if I had too.The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote: If I found myself in a position of extreme poverty due to circumstances beyond my control and my health at risk then I would without a doubt steal from places such as Tesco. And I would advise others to do the same. I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!could I ask you what you took?
Theft is theft, whether from Tesco’s or indeed smaller outlets
This joke of a Father needs sacking and locking up...
AngryandFrustrated
says...
11:43am Mon 21 Dec 09
WA wrote:Many apologies - given the reference to "Priest" and "Father" I had assumed he was Catholic as these are all terms used widely to describe Catholic priests - C of E usually refer to themselves as "vicars" or "reverands".
Father Jones is not a priest of the Roman Catholic Church. I am against his apparent encouragement to shoplift in any store, large or small.
However, whichever denomination he is from, I stand my posting - theft is theft whoever you steal from!
localgirl
says...
11:52am Mon 21 Dec 09
anastasia
says...
11:55am Mon 21 Dec 09
Whistlejacket
says...
11:56am Mon 21 Dec 09
AngryandFrustrated
says...
12:41pm Mon 21 Dec 09
anastasia wrote:There are some very needy people out there who are needy through no fault of their own. However, there are a significant number of people (if not most of them) who are "needy" through their own fault and lifestyle choices - ie because of a drug dependancy, gambling addiction etc.
I really don't approve of stealing, especially as lots of big companies are on the verge of going under too. (eg Woolies!) But I also find it interesting that nobody has suggested a better way of supporting people with no cash whatsoever. Hello people??? Why aren't we saving some of our disgust for a system so bound in red tape that it can't give people money for food!
Those that are "truly" needy, generally get help from all the appropriate agencies. Altho' they may have to lead a frugal lifestyle, they cope and get thru' it. Those that are needy thru' lifestyle choices tend to get help but with strings attached that they don't like - eg with drugs - specified help is available but the people accessing the help need to show committment to coming off drugs etc. They don't turn up for their rehab appointments and they take the money they are due for food and other essentials and spend it on whatever their poison is.
Call me cynical, but there is "needy" and "needy". People will find the money for what they consider to be essential. It's a bit like all the floods that have devestated houses around the country and the amount of people that did not have any insurance and therefore "lost everything". People bleat on about how they couldn't afford contents insurance as they show the camera man around their devestated front room. The camera picks up sodden lcd television, latest dvd player, sky tv and an x-box for good measure and yet, despite having all these luxuries, they couldn't afford the insurance to look after them. It is the choice they chose to make - pay a subscription to Sky and yet don't pay your insurance.
People need to take responsibility for their actions and if people steal, for whatever reason, then they do so in the knowledge that it's illegal and they may be caught. People like this muppet do-gooder who feels it appropriate to encourage people to break the law should be prosecuted for inciting a crime.
Martha1
says...
1:03pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Stealing is wrong full stop.
jvh100
says...
1:06pm Mon 21 Dec 09
"Not the God who is born of Mary".
Well as a Catholic (not particulary practicing though), I would like to remind this man that God was NOT born of Mary - Jesus was born of Mary and Jesus is not a God! What kind of distorted religion is this man preaching?
I would like to remind this 'Priest' that God is old testament and made man in his image'. Jesus is New Testament, was the son of god, NOT a God born of Mary.
mockaroundtheclock
says...
1:07pm Mon 21 Dec 09
If you want some real whacked out nonsense, try transubstantiation, the virgin birth, the assumption and talking snakes!
Martha1
says...
1:13pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Zetkin
says...
1:35pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Stand at the election on a platform of "Take from the rich to give to the poor," and you'll get my vote.
Kiff
says...
1:37pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:I found it offensive and asked that it was removed,
I'm glad to see Paula-T's comments have been removed. Inconsiderate idiot!
zook
says...
1:37pm Mon 21 Dec 09
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/news/article-
1237470/Priest-outra
ges-police-telling-c
ongregation-My-advic
e-shoplift.html
Zetkin
says...
1:42pm Mon 21 Dec 09
`
I sincerely hope you never find yourselves facing that dilemma: steal or starve.
OLD - HEAD
says...
1:53pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Glen_Quagmire
says...
2:00pm Mon 21 Dec 09
A taxpayer
says...
2:08pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Pedro
says...
2:13pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
2:15pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Kiff wrote:Well done!
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:I found it offensive and asked that it was removed,
I'm glad to see Paula-T's comments have been removed. Inconsiderate idiot!
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
2:19pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Vicar
says...
2:39pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:Not a chance - I would never steal!
The Vicar wrote:Vicar, if your saying that you would not steal if you really had to, then your a downright liar.The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote:No wondered this country is on its knees.... Theft is theft, whether from Tesco’s or indeed smaller outlets This joke of a Father needs sacking and locking up...nobodyknowswhoiam wrote:Nothing, honest! But I would if I had too.The Cat Amongst The Pigeons wrote: If I found myself in a position of extreme poverty due to circumstances beyond my control and my health at risk then I would without a doubt steal from places such as Tesco. And I would advise others to do the same. I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!could I ask you what you took?
A potential prison sentence and a criminal record isn’t going to do anyone any favours when trying to rebuild their lives should the situation arise...
I can’t understand anyone condoning crime…. There are other ways to handle poverty and misfortune without advising criminal activity…
Next, you’ll be advising murder if it cured depression!
Henry Swanson
says...
2:43pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Oh another note, Im not sure I agree that prostitution is degrading... surely thats a personal choice made by the person involved?? It should be legal which would help clean it up quite a bit.
Soothsayer17
says...
2:53pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Henry Swanson wrote:Sadly it is often is anything but a "personal choice made by the person involved." Hence poorer nations like Moldova losing 20% of their female population to human trafficking.
How many of you, if in a tight spot, possibly with children to feed, wouldnt steel from Tesco if you needed to eat??? My money would be on relativeley few of you. The thing is that people do what they need to do to survive in times of genuine hardship.
Oh another note, Im not sure I agree that prostitution is degrading... surely thats a personal choice made by the person involved?? It should be legal which would help clean it up quite a bit.
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
2:54pm Mon 21 Dec 09
TooRad
says...
2:56pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Not sure about men of the cloth and the whole commandments thing though....
Hieronymous
says...
2:58pm Mon 21 Dec 09
To return to the main issue, though, Father Tim's remark was clearly intended to provoke discussion. Own goal or not, it's clearly worked, and has even triggered some relatively intelligent exchanges on this comments facility for once!
TheManWithTheFuManchuMoustache
says...
2:59pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Press Headline?
"'It’s okay to shoplift' says Father Tim Jones"
Pure genius.
Henry Swanson
says...
3:20pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Soothsayer17 wrote:Sorry, let me clarify, if someone choses to do that to make a living I dint see ti as being degrading.... infact its not really degrading if forced into it, more abuse than degredation......
Henry Swanson wrote: How many of you, if in a tight spot, possibly with children to feed, wouldnt steel from Tesco if you needed to eat??? My money would be on relativeley few of you. The thing is that people do what they need to do to survive in times of genuine hardship. Oh another note, Im not sure I agree that prostitution is degrading... surely thats a personal choice made by the person involved?? It should be legal which would help clean it up quite a bit.Sadly it is often is anything but a "personal choice made by the person involved." Hence poorer nations like Moldova losing 20% of their female population to human trafficking.
Hieronymous
says...
3:33pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Soothsayer17
says...
3:36pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Henry Swanson wrote:Still - hardly an arguement for legalisation, is it?!?
Soothsayer17 wrote:Sorry, let me clarify, if someone choses to do that to make a living I dint see ti as being degrading.... infact its not really degrading if forced into it, more abuse than degredation......
Henry Swanson wrote: How many of you, if in a tight spot, possibly with children to feed, wouldnt steel from Tesco if you needed to eat??? My money would be on relativeley few of you. The thing is that people do what they need to do to survive in times of genuine hardship. Oh another note, Im not sure I agree that prostitution is degrading... surely thats a personal choice made by the person involved?? It should be legal which would help clean it up quite a bit.Sadly it is often is anything but a "personal choice made by the person involved." Hence poorer nations like Moldova losing 20% of their female population to human trafficking.
mystic_genius
says...
3:37pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Get-a-grip wrote:But then he would become a "needy" person, and would steal from the rest of us.
For inciting people to commit criminal offences, I now expect the Archbishop of York to remove Jones from his job and sack him.
taking his comments one step further, I always thought (still do, in fact) that people who occupy council houses unnecessarily are stealing. After all. they don't need the house. they can afford elsewhere. they just prefer the fact that the rest of us like to pay for them to have a roof over their heads.
Just a thought, but society is already condoning this attitude.
And I far from agree with it, it's just another example of moronic churches. they are not required in modern society.
Henry Swanson
says...
4:15pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Hieronymous wrote:Abuse is to cause harm to someone, to degrade is merely to humiliate
What's the difference between abuse and degradation, Henry?
RexN
says...
4:22pm Mon 21 Dec 09
It seems that there are different levels of petty crime, some of which are acceptable, and some of which are unacceptable to our Members of Partliament. Personally, I think MPs' expenses are an example of "a crime against the whole local community and society".
Garrowby Turnoff
says...
4:57pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Is there a problem with this?
pedalling paul
says...
5:07pm Mon 21 Dec 09
But seriously Fr. Tim has chosen to start a debate, and has succeeded beyond perhaps, his own expectations. Why has our Society left some in a position where stealing from the rich is their only option for survival?
Yorkshire Volunteer
says...
5:48pm Mon 21 Dec 09
I can have some sympathy with his objection to the use of the Playboy logo on young girls items and clothes (there is too great a inadvertant sexualisation of very young girls in this way) but throwing items around a shop was not appropriate.
In the same way, this exhortation to steal is both wrong in itself and irresponsible. We all pay for the items that are stolen from chain stores and to encourage theft is hardly consistent with his Christian mission. His point however as to the poverty in our midst, the creaking way that the Benefits system is run (and the example of the ex-prisoner having that minimum crisis loan instead of having his/her benefits processed is not unusual) is a good one.
Perhaps his Bishop needs to take him aside and have a word with him - maybe there is some Public Relations course he could go on?
In the meantime he is both discrediting his Church and the causes that he espouses.
Whatever will he do next?
Bo Jolly
says...
5:53pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Is there a problem with this?"
--------
There is if you believe, like Proudhon, that all property is theft. Some xians are pretty close to anarchists in their thinking - perhaps this vicar is one of them?
-
Or perhaps he's just trying to attract attention to the church when so many people have stopped believing in the sky fairy...
the butler
says...
5:58pm Mon 21 Dec 09
A little of his diatribe is obvious, Yet I wonder what synod would allow such a man to represent them in the church?
topumpire1
says...
6:08pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
6:31pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Vauxhall Viva
says...
6:44pm Mon 21 Dec 09
TooRad
says...
6:51pm Mon 21 Dec 09
TheManWithTheFuManchOk, having taken the time to read the article, the sermon and the comments, that appears to be the most pertinent point on the page.
uMoustache wrote:
“Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift." says Father Tim Jones.
The Press Headline?
"'It’s okay to shoplift' says Father Tim Jones"
Pure genius.
.
The religion bloke might as well be talking swahili because as long as our society continues to be a bunch of follow the tabloid crappy knee-jerks, anyone with an ounce of understanding or depth has no chance of getting a message across to the legions of indignant halfwits queuing up to miss the point, generalise and sensationalise.
.
pedalling paul
says...
8:02pm Mon 21 Dec 09
topumpire1 wrote:...or STEAL even.......
The 10 commandments say" thou shall NOT steel" amongst others, if ANY clergy cannot agree to them, perhaps they should be in a different job, or his bosses should think seriously if he is right for the job, maybe he needs sacking!
Spelling 5/10
Mary-Jane
says...
8:15pm Mon 21 Dec 09
What I fail to see is anyone taking the trouble to go back to the text of the gospel on which Fr Lawrence was preaching: the Magnificat.
It is probably the most revoutionary text of the NTst - there is no meek and mild, let's all be kind to each other suggestion. The text is, in the first part a hymn of praise, however the second part is nothing less than a prophesy of revolutionary, table-turning socialism. This is no 21st century idea. In 1886 Hancock was preaching on this text pointing out that it is
"The Hymn of the Social Revolution" Hancock states: "the Magnificat has as its motive the scattering, ... by God's Son, of those classes in every nation which make wars, ... ... 'the proud', 'the mighty' and 'the rich'."
He goes on to declare Mary the mother of socialism and specifically recognises the importance of the Magnificat to "all sorts and conditions of men and women in the daily ordering of their lives." He relates the text to the "homeless, the workless and the hungry" of his time; he declares the church is at war with the mighty and rich on behalf of the social outcasts.
He could see this before the turn of the 20thC - Is Fr Lawrence's sermon really so outrageous now as we see before us the hungry, workless and homeless of our own time.
Before commenting further, please go back and look at those lines in Luke's gospel and think a bit more. Lawrence's call to turn the tables is him doing his job as a clerk in holy orders - preaching the gospel.
Yours etc
An Atheist
What's the fuss about the use of "Father" - high church anglicans have used this form of address for donkeys years.
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
8:16pm Mon 21 Dec 09
pedalling paul wrote:I notised that to, but decidid that it wood be far to anal to waste my tyme comenting on it
topumpire1 wrote:...or STEAL even.......
The 10 commandments say" thou shall NOT steel" amongst others, if ANY clergy cannot agree to them, perhaps they should be in a different job, or his bosses should think seriously if he is right for the job, maybe he needs sacking!
Spelling 5/10
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
says...
8:20pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Mary-Jane wrote:Well, I started to read the first two paragraphs then became extremely bored so gave up.
I read only two sensible comments on this article, Fu Manchu's and Too Rad's response to him.
What I fail to see is anyone taking the trouble to go back to the text of the gospel on which Fr Lawrence was preaching: the Magnificat.
It is probably the most revoutionary text of the NTst - there is no meek and mild, let's all be kind to each other suggestion. The text is, in the first part a hymn of praise, however the second part is nothing less than a prophesy of revolutionary, table-turning socialism. This is no 21st century idea. In 1886 Hancock was preaching on this text pointing out that it is
"The Hymn of the Social Revolution" Hancock states: "the Magnificat has as its motive the scattering, ... by God's Son, of those classes in every nation which make wars, ... ... 'the proud', 'the mighty' and 'the rich'."
He goes on to declare Mary the mother of socialism and specifically recognises the importance of the Magnificat to "all sorts and conditions of men and women in the daily ordering of their lives." He relates the text to the "homeless, the workless and the hungry" of his time; he declares the church is at war with the mighty and rich on behalf of the social outcasts.
He could see this before the turn of the 20thC - Is Fr Lawrence's sermon really so outrageous now as we see before us the hungry, workless and homeless of our own time.
Before commenting further, please go back and look at those lines in Luke's gospel and think a bit more. Lawrence's call to turn the tables is him doing his job as a clerk in holy orders - preaching the gospel.
Yours etc
An Atheist
What's the fuss about the use of "Father" - high church anglicans have used this form of address for donkeys years.
pip007
says...
8:22pm Mon 21 Dec 09
A taxpayer
says...
9:28pm Mon 21 Dec 09
moleculeman
says...
9:53pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Mary-Jane wrote:It could be that many of us don't give a flying one about xianity, and just enjoy pointing and laughing when they score an awesome footshot. If I wanted to hear or read sermons, I'd actually go to church.
I read only two sensible comments on this article, Fu Manchu's and Too Rad's response to him.
What I fail to see is anyone taking the trouble to go back to the text of the gospel on which Fr Lawrence was preaching: the Magnificat.
It is probably the most revoutionary text of the NTst - there is no meek and mild, let's all be kind to each other suggestion. The text is, in the first part a hymn of praise, however the second part is nothing less than a prophesy of revolutionary, table-turning socialism. This is no 21st century idea. In 1886 Hancock was preaching on this text pointing out that it is
"The Hymn of the Social Revolution" Hancock states: "the Magnificat has as its motive the scattering, ... by God's Son, of those classes in every nation which make wars, ... ... 'the proud', 'the mighty' and 'the rich'."
He goes on to declare Mary the mother of socialism and specifically recognises the importance of the Magnificat to "all sorts and conditions of men and women in the daily ordering of their lives." He relates the text to the "homeless, the workless and the hungry" of his time; he declares the church is at war with the mighty and rich on behalf of the social outcasts.
He could see this before the turn of the 20thC - Is Fr Lawrence's sermon really so outrageous now as we see before us the hungry, workless and homeless of our own time.
Before commenting further, please go back and look at those lines in Luke's gospel and think a bit more. Lawrence's call to turn the tables is him doing his job as a clerk in holy orders - preaching the gospel.
Yours etc
An Atheist
What's the fuss about the use of "Father" - high church anglicans have used this form of address for donkeys years.
Getagripulot
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10:01pm Mon 21 Dec 09
steveisright
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10:14pm Mon 21 Dec 09
markwb
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10:21pm Mon 21 Dec 09
Merry Christmas everyone.
Enjoy reading your posts.
steveisright
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10:29pm Mon 21 Dec 09
I think the church needs to clarify its stance in this matter!!!
Taken for a Mug
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10:51pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The moral arguments put forward are as obscene as the profits these companies make.
Get-a-grip
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11:11pm Mon 21 Dec 09
yorkshirecalling
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11:22pm Mon 21 Dec 09
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons
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11:34pm Mon 21 Dec 09
TooRad
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8:08am Tue 22 Dec 09
their tax?
What choice does anyone have but to be their customer?
Hah! Another one who thinks paying tax is a retail concept!
Poor deluded fools conditioned by consumer capitalism consider themselves customers!
No wonder we're in the state we're in.
hustler
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8:39am Tue 22 Dec 09
Glen_Quagmire
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8:43am Tue 22 Dec 09
evelyn_trent
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11:39am Tue 22 Dec 09
anastasia
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11:51am Tue 22 Dec 09
Bo Jolly
says...
3:11pm Tue 22 Dec 09
evelyn_trent wrote:Actually, were it not for all the superstition and Iron Age mythology this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that might convince me that the church had a useful role to play in the world instead of just defending the status quo.
Is it any surprise that people are abandoning the Church in droves when morons like this start spouting off? Show me a better example of the lunatics taking over the asylum...
the butler
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6:08pm Tue 22 Dec 09
His theme was ill prepared; His audience misconstrued his thoughts now here's a storm in a teacup..
GoodDoc
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8:11pm Tue 22 Dec 09
Ma Sands
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9:25pm Tue 22 Dec 09
Though his advice is SO sweetly worded, it still is starkly an urging to shoplift.
Too, I am made sad by the man's obvious lack of a knowledge of Jesus and His Way.......does not the man believe that Jesus can do? And that God can never contradict Himself? And that the power of the Holy Spirit is as available to us today as it was when Jesus went back to heaven so that we could have it?
Get-a-grip
says...
10:33pm Tue 22 Dec 09
I sincerely hope Father Tim takes the press to court over this ridiculous headline. Hows about that for libel? Where does he say word for word 'It's OK to shoplift'? In fact, he says very explicitly and clearly that it is NOT OK to shoplift and neither is calling on people to go out and nick stuff.
Read the words -
Instead, I would rather that they shoplift. My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift.
And where's the attention seeking Arch Comedian of York in all this? Does he advocate theft as well?
iflyjetzzz
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10:56pm Tue 22 Dec 09
I suggest that the desperate take Fr Tim's advice and steal everything of value from the Church of England. If you're going to break a commandment, you might as well go all the way and take from the church.
germinator
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1:05am Wed 23 Dec 09
I agree, the church is a large chain, yep steal from them, throw their money in the air and what God wants he can take and whatever hits the ground is yours.
Larry Jones
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6:23pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Smiling Carcass
says...
4:15pm Sun 27 Dec 09
“3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?”
Smiling Carcass
says...
4:33pm Sun 27 Dec 09
Matthew 6:
“3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?”
Ma Sands
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6:09pm Sun 27 Dec 09
Your quote is truly from the Bible sir, but, be cautious, here.....(your quotation is out of Matt. 12, btw.... :) .....that was a question of Jesus eating on the Sabbath day --a law which by His coming to earth, He had fulfilled & done away with.
Also, in that Bible, in the New Testament, is the adjurement to obey those that are over you. And, in the Old Testament, a Proverb states that one, when he is caught stealing bread for which he needed so as not to starve, nor his family, that he must repay it seven times.......
The Cat Amongst The Pigeons says...
9:43am Mon 21 Dec 09
I certainly would not go into a store and begin throwing the stock on the floor though!