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11:00am Thursday 9th October 2008 in News
By Haydn Lewis, haydn.lewis@thepress.co.uk
CHILDREN as young as 11 are having their fingerprints used to register at a York secondary school.
The scheme at All Saints’ RC School is the first in the city using thumbprint recognition technology to register pupils as they turn up for school in the morning and after lunch break.
Head teacher Bill Scriven, said the school, which has 1,200 pupils, including a sixth form, consulted parents before introducing the scheme and, although there were one or two who didn’t want their child to take part, the majority use the system.
Mr Scriven said they introduced the fingerprinting technology because the schools split site on Mill Mount and Nunnery Lane made registration difficult.
It can be used to monitor truancy levels, although Mr Scriven stressed the school has extremely few children skipping classes.
Mr Scriven said he has implemented a system which allows students to enter the school and put their thumb-print on a machine.
He said: “The finger-printing was brought in at the beginning of term to help improve our registration systems and it has been a huge success.
“The school doesn’t have a huge database of children’s thumb-prints. The way it works is that the machine takes a scan and makes mathematical calculations based on each child’s individual print.
“We asked the parents before implementing the scheme and one or two didn’t want to do it and those children type in a number to the machine instead of using their thumb-print.
“I am really pleased with the way it has been working. It was expensive to install, but it means that children can go straight into their lessons and don’t have to wait to be registered by a teacher.
“We have a very low truancy rate at the school, but this is a way you can keep an eye on students and make sure they are in class when they should be.
“The system is quick and simple and the children really love it.”
But a parent group based in York has urged that schools be cautious about using fingerprint technology.
The chairman of the York-based Campaign for Real Education, Nick Seaton, said he can see no reason why fingerprinting needs to take place in school.
He said: “I would be wary of any system which uses fingerprinting of children in schools.
“To me it is brain-washing youngsters into getting used to state invasion into private matters and it would seem completely unnecessary.”
And one parent who contacted The Press, and who wanted to remain anonymous, said: “Why was it necessary to introduce this system? It substitutes a machine for a teacher – which is strange in a school that rightly prides itself on treating children as individuals and developing them as people.
“My son finds the new system an irritation that distracts him from his studies, and I know other children share his concerns. “This is not the first time a school computer system has caused problems.
“I speak from personal experience of automatic phone calls chasing me to explain my child’s absence when I had already telephoned to report that he was too ill for school.”
A spokeswoman for City of York Council said: “The decision to introduce fingerprinting technology is delegated to individual schools, but any scheme must comply with guidelines from the Department for Children, Schools and Families.
“The council expects that any proposed scheme is subject to consultation with, and the general approval, of parents.”
Schools harness technology
SCHOOLS in York are increasingly using hi-tech equipment.
The Press reported earlier this year that York High School introduced a system to text parents if their children are absent from school and the same system has been used to contact parents after a massive fire at the school last week.
Similarly, Manor CE School was one of several city schools – including All Saints’ RC – which The Press revealed last year to be using library systems that rely upon thumb-print recognition.
The practice of fingerprinting schoolchildren to speed up the attendance register and to give them easier access to libraries and school meals came under strong cross party attack in the House Of Lords, The Press reported last year.
But junior education minister Lord Adonis defended the increasingly prevalent practice, insisting that it was done only with the consent of pupils or their parents.
Lord Adonis said that, under the Data Protection Act 1998, the children – or, normally, their parents – must be given “fair processing” notices about the data and its proposed use.
Comments(37)
SELBY :-)
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11:09am Thu 9 Oct 08
Mullarkian
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11:26am Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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11:33am Thu 9 Oct 08
redr
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12:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:I may have agreed but as the head teacher states, it's optional and the children can elect to type in a number instead.
Fingerprinting in schools is an unnecessary use of biometric technology that puts children at risk of having their identity stolen. Children will grow up to think that it is acceptable to hand over your personal data in order to gain access to services, conditioning them to accept an Orwellian Database State is not acceptable.
Mister Sheen
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12:21pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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12:49pm Thu 9 Oct 08
redr wrote:If children can type a number instead then it begs the question. What is the point of this system. We also have to ask ourselves are parents aware of the potential security risk that such a system poses, or have they only been told about it's potential benifets? Also is it an opt in our opt out system?
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote: Fingerprinting in schools is an unnecessary use of biometric technology that puts children at risk of having their identity stolen. Children will grow up to think that it is acceptable to hand over your personal data in order to gain access to services, conditioning them to accept an Orwellian Database State is not acceptable.I may have agreed but as the head teacher states, it's optional and the children can elect to type in a number instead.
Mister Sheen
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1:01pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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1:10pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Mister Sheen wrote:That is a problem, you can't force everyone to allow their children to be fingerprinted and if you don't force everyone there is a massive flaw in the system. A form tutor checking people in person is the best method.
If kids can elect to type in a number instead of be finger-printed, what's to stop them getting their mates to tap it in for them whilst they jig-off!
Yorkshire NO2ID
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1:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08
old_geezer
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1:23pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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1:57pm Thu 9 Oct 08
old_geezer wrote:Fingerprinting in schools is a civil liberties issue and one that NO2ID campaigns on.
There are indeed important issues with government-held data, but this isn't one of them. I'm as concerned as anyone about civil liberties, and have contributed to NO2ID. While there are good points posted about accustoming children, this is no more intrusive than the workplace pass I carry, with the advantage that kids don't often lose their fingers! Without getting into a technical wrangle, these are low-resolution systems that don't store print images and are useless for, and incompatible with, forensic purposes and systems.
old_geezer
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2:04pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Bemused
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2:28pm Thu 9 Oct 08
“To me it is brain-washing youngsters into getting used to state invasion into private matters and it would seem completely unnecessary.”
Yorkshire NO2ID
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2:30pm Thu 9 Oct 08
old_geezer wrote:Are you talking about an image printed onto a plastic card or biometric data stored electronically in retrieval system?
My workplace pass definitely contains biometric data that's easily reproducible and usable without any special equipment or knowledge. A photo. We'll just have to disgree at the margins of our shared concerns.
Elle
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2:56pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Elle
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2:56pm Thu 9 Oct 08
mztripps
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3:41pm Thu 9 Oct 08
ThisIsOli
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4:16pm Thu 9 Oct 08
suzy_fickle
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4:54pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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5:19pm Thu 9 Oct 08
suzy_fickle wrote:The problem is that many people are not aware of the risks that are present when you allow a digital image of your fingerprint to be stored online.
If you go to Universal Studios - the Hollywood one at least - they use thumbprints to lock the bag lockers that you use when you go on the rides.
fussaboutnowt
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5:42pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Bemused
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5:55pm Thu 9 Oct 08
A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work.
Welcome to the 21st century folks!
Yorkshire NO2ID
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6:08pm Thu 9 Oct 08
fussaboutnowt wrote:You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security.
For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!
Yorkshire NO2ID
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6:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08
fussaboutnowt
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6:30pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:Yep - there's definately naivety floating round this forum when it comes to understanding how this system works.
fussaboutnowt wrote:You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security.
For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!
Countless security experts have warned against such systems, the 21st Century is what we make it.
lilwebbo
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6:45pm Thu 9 Oct 08
York1900
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7:34pm Thu 9 Oct 08
Dunc
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12:04am Fri 10 Oct 08
choco
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9:28am Fri 10 Oct 08
Yorkshire NO2ID
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10:09am Fri 10 Oct 08
fussaboutnowt wrote:"If you want to find out who owns a fingerprint, just convert the fingerprint to a template and do a search for the template in one of these databases. Call the template a binary number if you want to. The point is that all you need to save in the database is the number. Later, when you come across a "fingerprint of interest", you just convert it to a number and search for it. Law enforcement can use this information - and so can criminals."
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:Yep - there's definately naivety floating round this forum when it comes to understanding how this system works. Scare - mongering at its worse.fussaboutnowt wrote: For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security. Countless security experts have warned against such systems, the 21st Century is what we make it.
Yorkshire NO2ID
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10:11am Fri 10 Oct 08
lilwebbo wrote:That's all well and good untill someone steals your print and uses it to steal your idenity in a future where biometric thumbprints become a standard means of idenitification.
i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century. i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.
Yorkshire NO2ID
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10:14am Fri 10 Oct 08
Dunc wrote:Dunc,
Firstly our school in York used it instead of library cards, so I would dispute the claim in the title. Secondly I don't see why it is a problem if people know what my fingerprint looks like. Anyone who has the technology to re-create my fingerprints and frame me for a crime can probably take them off one of the hundreds of things I touch a day anyway. I can't see a big market in the knowledge of 11 year olds finger prints.
Yorkshire NO2ID
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10:16am Fri 10 Oct 08
choco wrote:Choco that's scandelous that you were not even properley informed. If you contact concerned@LeaveThemK
My son is a pupil at this school and I can say not only was I not asked for permission for his thumbprint to be used but I was not consulted or informed on any level that this technology was coming to the school,contrary to what the headmaster says in your report.
Bemused
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1:46pm Fri 10 Oct 08
i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century.
i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.
i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century. i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.
choco
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3:22pm Fri 10 Oct 08
suzy_fickle
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8:56pm Fri 10 Oct 08
John29
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7:00am Mon 13 Oct 08
suzy_fickle wrote:Maybe because they have introduced the scanning a different times and everyone has to line up to do it after assembly?
"My son finds the new system an irritation that distracts him from his studies" - how on earth can having to swipe your thumb twice a day be a distraction for crying out loud?!
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