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First York school to use fingerprint recognition technology

The thumb-print recognition machine at All Saints’ RC School The thumb-print recognition machine at All Saints’ RC School

CHILDREN as young as 11 are having their fingerprints used to register at a York secondary school.

The scheme at All Saints’ RC School is the first in the city using thumbprint recognition technology to register pupils as they turn up for school in the morning and after lunch break.

Head teacher Bill Scriven, said the school, which has 1,200 pupils, including a sixth form, consulted parents before introducing the scheme and, although there were one or two who didn’t want their child to take part, the majority use the system.

Mr Scriven said they introduced the fingerprinting technology because the schools split site on Mill Mount and Nunnery Lane made registration difficult.

It can be used to monitor truancy levels, although Mr Scriven stressed the school has extremely few children skipping classes.

Mr Scriven said he has implemented a system which allows students to enter the school and put their thumb-print on a machine.

He said: “The finger-printing was brought in at the beginning of term to help improve our registration systems and it has been a huge success.

“The school doesn’t have a huge database of children’s thumb-prints. The way it works is that the machine takes a scan and makes mathematical calculations based on each child’s individual print.

“We asked the parents before implementing the scheme and one or two didn’t want to do it and those children type in a number to the machine instead of using their thumb-print.

“I am really pleased with the way it has been working. It was expensive to install, but it means that children can go straight into their lessons and don’t have to wait to be registered by a teacher.

“We have a very low truancy rate at the school, but this is a way you can keep an eye on students and make sure they are in class when they should be.

“The system is quick and simple and the children really love it.”

But a parent group based in York has urged that schools be cautious about using fingerprint technology.

The chairman of the York-based Campaign for Real Education, Nick Seaton, said he can see no reason why fingerprinting needs to take place in school.

He said: “I would be wary of any system which uses fingerprinting of children in schools.

“To me it is brain-washing youngsters into getting used to state invasion into private matters and it would seem completely unnecessary.”

And one parent who contacted The Press, and who wanted to remain anonymous, said: “Why was it necessary to introduce this system? It substitutes a machine for a teacher – which is strange in a school that rightly prides itself on treating children as individuals and developing them as people.

“My son finds the new system an irritation that distracts him from his studies, and I know other children share his concerns. “This is not the first time a school computer system has caused problems.

“I speak from personal experience of automatic phone calls chasing me to explain my child’s absence when I had already telephoned to report that he was too ill for school.”

A spokeswoman for City of York Council said: “The decision to introduce fingerprinting technology is delegated to individual schools, but any scheme must comply with guidelines from the Department for Children, Schools and Families.

“The council expects that any proposed scheme is subject to consultation with, and the general approval, of parents.”


Schools harness technology

SCHOOLS in York are increasingly using hi-tech equipment.

The Press reported earlier this year that York High School introduced a system to text parents if their children are absent from school and the same system has been used to contact parents after a massive fire at the school last week.

Similarly, Manor CE School was one of several city schools – including All Saints’ RC – which The Press revealed last year to be using library systems that rely upon thumb-print recognition.

The practice of fingerprinting schoolchildren to speed up the attendance register and to give them easier access to libraries and school meals came under strong cross party attack in the House Of Lords, The Press reported last year.

But junior education minister Lord Adonis defended the increasingly prevalent practice, insisting that it was done only with the consent of pupils or their parents.

Lord Adonis said that, under the Data Protection Act 1998, the children – or, normally, their parents – must be given “fair processing” notices about the data and its proposed use.

Comments(37)

SELBY :-) says...
11:09am Thu 9 Oct 08

My cousins who attend a high school in West Yorkshire have had this scheme for ages! Seems York are a wee bit behind.
A good idea though!!

Mullarkian says...
11:26am Thu 9 Oct 08

Lord Adonis ! - Is he good looking this chap? or has someone just told him he is.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
11:33am Thu 9 Oct 08

Fingerprinting in schools is an unnecessary use of biometric technology that puts children at risk of having their identity stolen. Children will grow up to think that it is acceptable to hand over your personal data in order to gain access to services, conditioning them to accept an Orwellian Database State is not acceptable.

redr says...
12:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:
Fingerprinting in schools is an unnecessary use of biometric technology that puts children at risk of having their identity stolen. Children will grow up to think that it is acceptable to hand over your personal data in order to gain access to services, conditioning them to accept an Orwellian Database State is not acceptable.
I may have agreed but as the head teacher states, it's optional and the children can elect to type in a number instead.

Mister Sheen says...
12:21pm Thu 9 Oct 08

So, if there's no need for registration twice a day, what contact do they have with a form tutor? Who would be there to pick up on any problems that pupils bring into school before they head off for lessons?

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
12:49pm Thu 9 Oct 08

redr wrote:
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote: Fingerprinting in schools is an unnecessary use of biometric technology that puts children at risk of having their identity stolen. Children will grow up to think that it is acceptable to hand over your personal data in order to gain access to services, conditioning them to accept an Orwellian Database State is not acceptable.
I may have agreed but as the head teacher states, it's optional and the children can elect to type in a number instead.
If children can type a number instead then it begs the question. What is the point of this system. We also have to ask ourselves are parents aware of the potential security risk that such a system poses, or have they only been told about it's potential benifets? Also is it an opt in our opt out system?

Mister Sheen says...
1:01pm Thu 9 Oct 08

If kids can elect to type in a number instead of be finger-printed, what's to stop them getting their mates to tap it in for them whilst they jig-off!

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
1:10pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Mister Sheen wrote:
If kids can elect to type in a number instead of be finger-printed, what's to stop them getting their mates to tap it in for them whilst they jig-off!
That is a problem, you can't force everyone to allow their children to be fingerprinted and if you don't force everyone there is a massive flaw in the system. A form tutor checking people in person is the best method.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
1:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Schools that introduce fingerprinting usually try to reassure parents by saying "the system does not store a fingerprint, just a number. It is not possible to reconstruct an image of a fingerprint from what is stored".

The short answer is that fingerprint templates are what is stored on these systems. These are the equivalent of fingerprints - rather like the difference between a drawing and a photo - otherwise the systems simply wouldn't work.

Police, the security services, and governments use fingerprint templates to identify criminals.

There are international standards to ensure that biometric templates from different manufacturers are compatible - so what's stored on one system can be read by any other, including government systems.

Where fingerprint templates are stored in an encrypted form, it is impossible for anyone to guarantee that this won't be broken during a person's entire lifetime. A PIN number can easily be changed. A fingerprint, and the template dervived from it, cannot ever be changed.

Moreover, the Government has the power to demand encryption keys from the system supplier, under the terms of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 Part III.

In the future, fingerprint templates will be used to authenticate passports, bank accounts, etc. Thus biometric templates are extremely valuable and need to be kept in a highly secure environment.

In addition, fingerprint templates can be used to rapidly link different databases and to build up a disturbingly accurate profile of an individual without their knowledge or consent.

The US government's official National Science & Technology Council says you CAN reconstruct a fingerprint image from a fingerprint template.

Government security experts have successfully hacked the fingerprint scanners used in schools.

Schools cannot possibly provide the level of security necessary to protect children's data.

A school might not even be aware that children's data had been compromised until it was far too late.

old_geezer says...
1:23pm Thu 9 Oct 08

There are indeed important issues with government-held data, but this isn't one of them. I'm as concerned as anyone about civil liberties, and have contributed to NO2ID.

While there are good points posted about accustoming children, this is no more intrusive than the workplace pass I carry, with the advantage that kids don't often lose their fingers!

Without getting into a technical wrangle, these are low-resolution systems that don't store print images and are useless for, and incompatible with, forensic purposes and systems.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
1:57pm Thu 9 Oct 08

old_geezer wrote:
There are indeed important issues with government-held data, but this isn't one of them. I'm as concerned as anyone about civil liberties, and have contributed to NO2ID. While there are good points posted about accustoming children, this is no more intrusive than the workplace pass I carry, with the advantage that kids don't often lose their fingers! Without getting into a technical wrangle, these are low-resolution systems that don't store print images and are useless for, and incompatible with, forensic purposes and systems.
Fingerprinting in schools is a civil liberties issue and one that NO2ID campaigns on.

A workplace card does not contain biometric information that could be used or missued for other purposes. Nor does sensitive personal information need to be stored in a system with a conventional pass card.

If the scanners are low-resolution as you suggest what is the data mismatch rate and what immplications does that have for accuratley knowing who is in the school? Also how do you know they are too low-resolution to be used elsewhere?

People who opt out are allowed to enter in their own pin number creating a huge security flaw in the system. As someone else has said anyone could enter in anyone elses pin number. That has direct health & safety implications in terms of evacuation in fire.

old_geezer says...
2:04pm Thu 9 Oct 08

My workplace pass definitely contains biometric data that's easily reproducible and usable without any special equipment or knowledge.

A photo.

We'll just have to disgree at the margins of our shared concerns.

Bemused says...
2:28pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Why not just identichip 'em at birth, or tattoo a bar code, and have done? That's what it's coming to, an acceptance of this system just brings it nearer.
“To me it is brain-washing youngsters into getting used to state invasion into private matters and it would seem completely unnecessary.”

We are sleepwalking ever closer to the future Orwell predicted in his book 1984.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
2:30pm Thu 9 Oct 08

old_geezer wrote:
My workplace pass definitely contains biometric data that's easily reproducible and usable without any special equipment or knowledge. A photo. We'll just have to disgree at the margins of our shared concerns.
Are you talking about an image printed onto a plastic card or biometric data stored electronically in retrieval system?

I don't think you can really compare the former to taking and storing digital templates of people's fingerprints.

Elle says...
2:56pm Thu 9 Oct 08

The point everyone is missing is that there is more teaching time for the pupils with this system, and less hanging around while a teacher reads through a list of names for children to just say 'yes'. A fanatastic idea, and hopefully all schools will use it very soon!

Elle says...
2:56pm Thu 9 Oct 08

The point everyone is missing is that there is more teaching time for the pupils with this system, and less hanging around while a teacher reads through a list of names for children to just say 'yes'. A fanatastic idea, and hopefully all schools will use it very soon!

mztripps says...
3:41pm Thu 9 Oct 08

I couldn't care less if it takes an hour to take the register each morning. The old system allows form tutors to spend some time with the class and make sure each child is actually there instead of hoping the computer system is correct. Taking children's fingerprints is disgusting and as others have said, is marching us towards a 1984 style scenario. What happens if the data get corrupted or stolen, are they planning to issue the kids with new fingers? Stealing fingerprints is the easiest thing in the world if you have an internet connection, Google, and little time & effort! If the 15yr olds at this school as ingenious as they were at mine, the head teacher will have stolen prints by the end of next week.

ThisIsOli says...
4:16pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Diabolical waste of money, not too conceerend about data privacy hare but how much did this system cost to install?


suzy_fickle says...
4:54pm Thu 9 Oct 08

If you go to Universal Studios - the Hollywood one at least - they use thumbprints to lock the bag lockers that you use when you go on the rides.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
5:19pm Thu 9 Oct 08

suzy_fickle wrote:
If you go to Universal Studios - the Hollywood one at least - they use thumbprints to lock the bag lockers that you use when you go on the rides.
The problem is that many people are not aware of the risks that are present when you allow a digital image of your fingerprint to be stored online.

I'm sure if more parents were better informed about these risks then they may not have allowed their children to have their prints taken. Did the school mention warnings by leading security experts on this issue I wonder?

This system has at great expense tried to fix something that wasn't even broken.

look at www.leavethemkidsalo
ne.com and read the facts.

fussaboutnowt says...
5:42pm Thu 9 Oct 08

For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work.
Welcome to the 21st century folks!

Bemused says...
5:55pm Thu 9 Oct 08

A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work.
Welcome to the 21st century folks!

How on earth did schools manage before such time saving, during the 1950s, 60s, & 70s for example, when they taught pupils to actually read, write, and spell properly, and pass real and not dumbed down GCEs and A-levels?

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
6:08pm Thu 9 Oct 08

fussaboutnowt wrote:
For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!
You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security.

Countless security experts have warned against such systems, the 21st Century is what we make it.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
6:11pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Aside from manufacturers' anecdotal claims in advertising material, can the school give us any details of any independent research proving benefits to children using this system?

Who, under existing legislation, including the Children Act and the government's stated commitment to widespread data sharing, may access these children's biometric template and associated data as stored on the system? The police? Social services? Civil servants?

Given that the encryption used by the system cannot possibly be guaranteed for the entire lifetime of my child, and that fingerprint templates from different manufacturers are compatible and interchangeable in accordance with INCITS 398 or NISTIR 6529, will the school accept full liability if children's biometric template stored on the system is compromised at some future point?

fussaboutnowt says...
6:30pm Thu 9 Oct 08

Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:
fussaboutnowt wrote:
For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!
You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security.

Countless security experts have warned against such systems, the 21st Century is what we make it.
Yep - there's definately naivety floating round this forum when it comes to understanding how this system works.
Scare - mongering at its worse.

lilwebbo says...
6:45pm Thu 9 Oct 08

i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century.
i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.

York1900 says...
7:34pm Thu 9 Oct 08

I can not see any problem with the system
the only people who will have a problem with it is those who think rules don't apply to them

Dunc says...
12:04am Fri 10 Oct 08

Firstly our school in York used it instead of library cards, so I would dispute the claim in the title.

Secondly I don't see why it is a problem if people know what my fingerprint looks like. Anyone who has the technology to re-create my fingerprints and frame me for a crime can probably take them off one of the hundreds of things I touch a day anyway. I can't see a big market in the knowledge of 11 year olds finger prints.

choco says...
9:28am Fri 10 Oct 08

My son is a pupil at this school and I can say not only was I not asked for permission for his thumbprint to be used but I was not consulted or informed on any level that this technology was coming to the school,contrary to what the headmaster says in your report.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
10:09am Fri 10 Oct 08

fussaboutnowt wrote:
Yorkshire NO2ID wrote:
fussaboutnowt wrote: For those desperately concerned regarding form time spent with pupils - you will be relieved to know this system has allowed form tutors to have longer registration time in the mornings with pupils. The registration time has been extended to 20 minutes & means form tutors now have more time to spend with pupils giving out information & collecting in reply slips etc. The thumb printing takes place in the presence of form tutors in the classroom - except during assembly. Thumb printing then takes place in the school hall under the supervision of several form tutors & senior staff.A vast improvement on the paper system which lead to many errors & extra administration work. Welcome to the 21st century folks!
You are risking compromising the identity of all the children in the school for the sake of a few minutes saved in taking a register as opposed to having kids line up to scan their fingerprints. Whoever thought this system was a good idea shows a naivety when it comes to IT security. Countless security experts have warned against such systems, the 21st Century is what we make it.
Yep - there's definately naivety floating round this forum when it comes to understanding how this system works. Scare - mongering at its worse.
"If you want to find out who owns a fingerprint, just convert the fingerprint to a template and do a search for the template in one of these databases. Call the template a binary number if you want to. The point is that all you need to save in the database is the number. Later, when you come across a "fingerprint of interest", you just convert it to a number and search for it. Law enforcement can use this information - and so can criminals."
Kim Cameron, architect of identity and access in Microsoft's connected systems division, 09 May 2007

So Kim Cameron is another niave security expert, whereas the school that has not counsulted parents and is acting on manufactures claims knows best.

I think people will be able to make up their own minds as to who is niave.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
10:11am Fri 10 Oct 08

lilwebbo wrote:
i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century. i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.
That's all well and good untill someone steals your print and uses it to steal your idenity in a future where biometric thumbprints become a standard means of idenitification.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
10:14am Fri 10 Oct 08

Dunc wrote:
Firstly our school in York used it instead of library cards, so I would dispute the claim in the title. Secondly I don't see why it is a problem if people know what my fingerprint looks like. Anyone who has the technology to re-create my fingerprints and frame me for a crime can probably take them off one of the hundreds of things I touch a day anyway. I can't see a big market in the knowledge of 11 year olds finger prints.
Dunc,

It's a economoy of scale. It is possible to lift an indivdual fingerprint but it requires time and effort. If you can hack into a database system or steal a hardrive that has hundreads of records then you have a much larger return for your criminal investment.

Chunks of data exchanges hands on the black market, as any security expert will tell you. School's are an easy target for data theft and young people are particulary good targets for creating fake IDs with as they won't have any previous records.

Yorkshire NO2ID says...
10:16am Fri 10 Oct 08

choco wrote:
My son is a pupil at this school and I can say not only was I not asked for permission for his thumbprint to be used but I was not consulted or informed on any level that this technology was coming to the school,contrary to what the headmaster says in your report.
Choco that's scandelous that you were not even properley informed. If you contact concerned@LeaveThemK
idsAlone.com then there are people that can help ensure your son's idenity is kept secure for the future.

Bemused says...
1:46pm Fri 10 Oct 08

i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century.
i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.
i am a member of all saints sixth form i have been a pupil at this school 5 years and i am now in my sixth. I have first hand experience of the thumb printing and it beats shouting "yes miss" after my name. I couldnt wait for thumb printing to be introduced and it is brilliant. it stops pupil truanting and the school is up to date with the 21st century. i am one of hundres of pupils who are grateful for this technology. assume away about thumb printing but the new registering system is a success.

Brainwashed, maybe that's what's caused the illiteracy problem?

choco says...
3:22pm Fri 10 Oct 08

Thankyou NO2ID for your information,it is truly informed.The loophole that has happened to us is that the school did ask parents permission but it was as long as three years ago.My son has been there for two.Therewill be alot of pupils in his boat.This also brings to the fore the question of "once the technology is already in place will new parents applying to the school be informed that this technology will be used on their child,or will each new pupil be expected to just go along with it as it is a matter of school policy and routine,as my son has.In this case the school has failed to assert pupil and parents individual choices.Which is odd,because on the other hand they are putting great store in technology that emphasises individuality.Also in reply to some other comments,Elle,from york,"saving time".How much time can be saved when say 32 kids have to say "yes" in turn or stand in a line and put their thumb up to a machine.No time is not the issue here.Administration.
Now thats another concern.And frankly I am concerned if a teachersays this is a vast improvement in the paper system which led to many errors and extra admin work.Alluding to this let me quote my son,who has said "It is completely unecessary,how difficult can it be to shout yes miss,and the teacher to mark it down".To say that this technology is justified because of errors is just not justiafiable.What administration error has caused serious problems in schools ever.And to say that that it is justiafiable because it cuts admin work,is just an admission of laziness and plain silly in an institution that is all about bits of paper.My son has to manage bits of paper given to him in every lesson.I dont see them bringing in technology to help with that.No,we have to ask ourselves the wider question of "Why are they using fingerprints".....

suzy_fickle says...
8:56pm Fri 10 Oct 08

"My son finds the new system an irritation that distracts him from his studies" - how on earth can having to swipe your thumb twice a day be a distraction for crying out loud?!

John29 says...
7:00am Mon 13 Oct 08

suzy_fickle wrote:
"My son finds the new system an irritation that distracts him from his studies" - how on earth can having to swipe your thumb twice a day be a distraction for crying out loud?!
Maybe because they have introduced the scanning a different times and everyone has to line up to do it after assembly?

I think this is a bad idea, it's expensive and some people have a major issue with it. Surley the school should listen to the concerns that some parents have about this and stick with a system that doesn't get people's backs up.

I don't think it paints a very good image of the school.

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