Fresh row over York council's 'spy van' - only 21 of 658 fines were issued at schools

Fresh row over York council's 'spy van'

Fresh row over York council's 'spy van'

First published in News
Last updated

FEWER than one in 30 of the motorists fined by York's controversial "spy van" was parked near a school, new figures have revealed.

The CCTV safety van, which has been operating in York since March, was introduced following calls from head teachers who were concerned about illegally and potentially dangerous parking in and around schools.

But now City of York Council has revealed that by July 12, only 21 enforcement notices had been issued at school locations, while 637 had been issued at "locations other then school locations" - about 97 per cent of the total.

Osbaldwick Independent councillor Mark Warters, who obtained the statistics, said they confirmed what he had suspected, that the spy car was just the latest move by 'anti-car, non-car driving zealots' to harass drivers in the city.

He said he had particular concerns about the use of the van to target traders, customers and delivery vehicles in Murton Lane, Osbaldwick, but said that even in the vicinity of schools, it just moved the problem of parents parking into nearby streets.

The Press has previously revealed that some of the streets targeted by the van included Garden Place off Stonebow, where 148 fines were issued, including 14 in a single day, and Clifford Street .

Andy Laslett, the authority's strategic services manager, said that like other local authorities, York was using the patrol car as a means of deterring illegal or dangerous parking.

"We're pleased that it seems to be effective not only outside schools but also by supplementing the work of traffic enforcement officers," he said.

"On www.york.gov.uk we list the car's route which includes areas with parking restrictions that do not require an observation, such as loading bans and clearways, so everyone can ensure they park legally and safely."

Andrea Hellam, head teacher of Badger Hill Primary School, one of those to request support from the patrol car, said parked cars had moved away from the school entrance, which had previously been a problem.

Comments (27)

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11:27am Mon 21 Jul 14

The Grim Reaper says...

I am no fan of York City Council, but we have the answer in our own hands. Park legally. Very simple concept, if we all park legally, the van will cease to have a useful purpose and will eventually become obsolete (like some of our current councillors????). If you believe that you have been ticketed in error, then contest the ticket, that is your right.
I am no fan of York City Council, but we have the answer in our own hands. Park legally. Very simple concept, if we all park legally, the van will cease to have a useful purpose and will eventually become obsolete (like some of our current councillors????). If you believe that you have been ticketed in error, then contest the ticket, that is your right. The Grim Reaper
  • Score: 40

11:27am Mon 21 Jul 14

eeoodares says...

Keep digging Labour, just dig your grave deeper.
Keep digging Labour, just dig your grave deeper. eeoodares
  • Score: 36

11:40am Mon 21 Jul 14

Thecynic says...

I'm not surprised there are so few enforcement notices at school locations.
Last thursday afternoon whilst sitting in the cross keys on tadcaster road, I saw the camera car turn down St Helen's road toward Acomb. The time was 2:55pm it returned at 3:05pm The driver was a female, I remember thinking at the time that there was no way she had time to check the schools in the area and get back to the junction by the cross keys in that time!
There are 3 schools to my knowledge in the area, Dringhouses primary school, York high school and Westfield primary school. I'm not too sure about Dringhouses school? but the other 2 certainly have suffered from serious congestion due to inconsiderate parking in the recent past.
It appeared to me as though the camera car was just driving around to put miles on the clock rather than to issue enforcement notices, as there is no way a car could travel around the 3 schools in that time span.
Even were it possible? why would it be back at the cross keys junction for 5 mins after 3pm? surely the kids would still be leaving the school buildings at that time? Never mind have had the time to be picked up by car.
Just another quango project in my opinion.
I'm not surprised there are so few enforcement notices at school locations. Last thursday afternoon whilst sitting in the cross keys on tadcaster road, I saw the camera car turn down St Helen's road toward Acomb. The time was 2:55pm it returned at 3:05pm The driver was a female, I remember thinking at the time that there was no way she had time to check the schools in the area and get back to the junction by the cross keys in that time! There are 3 schools to my knowledge in the area, Dringhouses primary school, York high school and Westfield primary school. I'm not too sure about Dringhouses school? but the other 2 certainly have suffered from serious congestion due to inconsiderate parking in the recent past. It appeared to me as though the camera car was just driving around to put miles on the clock rather than to issue enforcement notices, as there is no way a car could travel around the 3 schools in that time span. Even were it possible? why would it be back at the cross keys junction for 5 mins after 3pm? surely the kids would still be leaving the school buildings at that time? Never mind have had the time to be picked up by car. Just another quango project in my opinion. Thecynic
  • Score: 26

11:42am Mon 21 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

Certain i saw this car on the A63 . Couple o weeks ago at cliffe...what the hell wer it doing out there.??
Certain i saw this car on the A63 . Couple o weeks ago at cliffe...what the hell wer it doing out there.?? piaggio1
  • Score: 18

11:48am Mon 21 Jul 14

bolero says...

Pleased to see that its working; wherever.
Pleased to see that its working; wherever. bolero
  • Score: -10

11:49am Mon 21 Jul 14

JHardacre says...

How does the camera car know if there is a blue badge on the dashboard of illegally parked cars as they seem to park anywhere they like, yellow lines, opposite junctions, places marked as 'No Parking', on bends....
How does the camera car know if there is a blue badge on the dashboard of illegally parked cars as they seem to park anywhere they like, yellow lines, opposite junctions, places marked as 'No Parking', on bends.... JHardacre
  • Score: 18

12:09pm Mon 21 Jul 14

Bailed Out says...

Usual pathetic comment from the Kremlin.
Usual pathetic comment from the Kremlin. Bailed Out
  • Score: 3

12:34pm Mon 21 Jul 14

voiceofnormalpeople says...

just park permanently out side York high, there is always the same morons who think they are special and park where they like. shame the children are then forced to step out behind parked vehicles risking the safety of the pupils. Still they are special aren't they and the rules of the road don't apply to them.
I also say the teachers should be making them move as a safety concern to there pupils.
just park permanently out side York high, there is always the same morons who think they are special and park where they like. shame the children are then forced to step out behind parked vehicles risking the safety of the pupils. Still they are special aren't they and the rules of the road don't apply to them. I also say the teachers should be making them move as a safety concern to there pupils. voiceofnormalpeople
  • Score: -1

12:38pm Mon 21 Jul 14

Dave Ruddock says...

I know the council don't read these, Just one point if its doing Illegal parking and dropping off get this thing in town and check out the Private parcel vans, they stop on Double Yellows, at Junctions, In Front of Traffic lights, block roads, and not a beep out of the SNOOPY CAR, its to busy targeting soft targets.

USE IT properly or not at all.
I know the council don't read these, Just one point if its doing Illegal parking and dropping off get this thing in town and check out the Private parcel vans, they stop on Double Yellows, at Junctions, In Front of Traffic lights, block roads, and not a beep out of the SNOOPY CAR, its to busy targeting soft targets. USE IT properly or not at all. Dave Ruddock
  • Score: 15

1:05pm Mon 21 Jul 14

julia brica says...

If only everyone was as law abiding , courteous and considerate as our taxi drivers. If only !
If only everyone was as law abiding , courteous and considerate as our taxi drivers. If only ! julia brica
  • Score: -7

1:17pm Mon 21 Jul 14

carl19692 says...

Some people may do well to revisit the Highway code with regard to double yellow lines:

Along the edge of the carriageway
Waiting restrictions
Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You
may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while
passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs
that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions.

https://www.gov.uk/g
overnment/uploads/sy
stem/uploads/attachm
ent_data/file/312242
/the-highway-code-ro
ad-markings.pdf
Some people may do well to revisit the Highway code with regard to double yellow lines: Along the edge of the carriageway Waiting restrictions Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. https://www.gov.uk/g overnment/uploads/sy stem/uploads/attachm ent_data/file/312242 /the-highway-code-ro ad-markings.pdf carl19692
  • Score: -4

1:37pm Mon 21 Jul 14

the original Homer says...

The camera car doesn't capture enough evidence to enforce double yellow lines, so there would be no point in it being used in those areas.

I don't often defend CoYC but they did say at the start it would be used in no stopping / waiting areas, and they never said it would be used to police double yellow lines.

Outside schools, it is only really the zigzag areas it could cover, so it has to spend time elsewhere to make it pay for itself. I don;t think that point was made very well to start with (whether that was deliberate r accidental I don;t know).

The main areas where it can be effective are clearways, zigzags, and anywhere where there is a solid white line in the centre of the road.

That may not be what we were thought it was going to do, but it is still in our own hands to avoid being caught. In many ways, it is doing us all a favour, as stopping in those places is probably more dangerous than parking on double yellow lines.

That said, I think it should be outside schools during their start/end times, and should only go to the other places outside those times.

Two comments in response to earlier posts -

1 Murton Lane is a clearway so anyone who stops on the road should get a ticket.

2 No stopping / waiting areas apple exactly the same to blue badge holders, taxis, buses, lorries, council vehicles, cars etc. There are very few exceptions (such as an ambulance attending an emergency).
The camera car doesn't capture enough evidence to enforce double yellow lines, so there would be no point in it being used in those areas. I don't often defend CoYC but they did say at the start it would be used in no stopping / waiting areas, and they never said it would be used to police double yellow lines. Outside schools, it is only really the zigzag areas it could cover, so it has to spend time elsewhere to make it pay for itself. I don;t think that point was made very well to start with (whether that was deliberate r accidental I don;t know). The main areas where it can be effective are clearways, zigzags, and anywhere where there is a solid white line in the centre of the road. That may not be what we were thought it was going to do, but it is still in our own hands to avoid being caught. In many ways, it is doing us all a favour, as stopping in those places is probably more dangerous than parking on double yellow lines. That said, I think it should be outside schools during their start/end times, and should only go to the other places outside those times. Two comments in response to earlier posts - 1 Murton Lane is a clearway so anyone who stops on the road should get a ticket. 2 No stopping / waiting areas apple exactly the same to blue badge holders, taxis, buses, lorries, council vehicles, cars etc. There are very few exceptions (such as an ambulance attending an emergency). the original Homer
  • Score: 16

1:47pm Mon 21 Jul 14

the original Homer says...

carl19692 wrote:
Some people may do well to revisit the Highway code with regard to double yellow lines:

Along the edge of the carriageway
Waiting restrictions
Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You
may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while
passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs
that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions.

https://www.gov.uk/g

overnment/uploads/sy

stem/uploads/attachm

ent_data/file/312242

/the-highway-code-ro

ad-markings.pdf
Those exceptions are why a camera car isn't very good on double yellow lines.

For example, drivers could easily claim they were loading/unloading, or letting passengers board or alight. They could claim the camera car got the picture just before the door/boot was opened, or just after it was closed.

Clearways, zigzags and solid white lines don't have those exceptions.
[quote][p][bold]carl19692[/bold] wrote: Some people may do well to revisit the Highway code with regard to double yellow lines: Along the edge of the carriageway Waiting restrictions Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. https://www.gov.uk/g overnment/uploads/sy stem/uploads/attachm ent_data/file/312242 /the-highway-code-ro ad-markings.pdf[/p][/quote]Those exceptions are why a camera car isn't very good on double yellow lines. For example, drivers could easily claim they were loading/unloading, or letting passengers board or alight. They could claim the camera car got the picture just before the door/boot was opened, or just after it was closed. Clearways, zigzags and solid white lines don't have those exceptions. the original Homer
  • Score: 5

3:20pm Mon 21 Jul 14

m dee says...

Cannot blame them for enforcing parking wherever the way it was marketed speaks volumes you decide
http://www.yorkpress
.co.uk/news/11044570
.First_picture_of_co
uncil_school__spy_va
n_/
Cannot blame them for enforcing parking wherever the way it was marketed speaks volumes you decide http://www.yorkpress .co.uk/news/11044570 .First_picture_of_co uncil_school__spy_va n_/ m dee
  • Score: 7

3:23pm Mon 21 Jul 14

the-e-man says...

I am no lover of this Council of Clowns but illegal parking does need policing.
I recall not too long ago news items about a local Council who did away with all parking restrictions and Traffic Wardens but in no time at all had to reintroduce the parking restrictions and the Traffic Wardens as the town had become totally clogged up with parked vehicles.
It may be unpalatable to the already persecuted motorist but parking restrictions and enforement are necessary - mainly due to the selfish attitude and behaviour of the few.
I would actually like to see the police retake responsibility for enforement of parking restrictions as they at least did not treat it as revenue ( all fines went to central government). I also thought some of the old Traffic Wardens built up a good rapport with locals and actually did a good job not like the 'hit and run' tactics used by the council employed enforcers.
I am no lover of this Council of Clowns but illegal parking does need policing. I recall not too long ago news items about a local Council who did away with all parking restrictions and Traffic Wardens but in no time at all had to reintroduce the parking restrictions and the Traffic Wardens as the town had become totally clogged up with parked vehicles. It may be unpalatable to the already persecuted motorist but parking restrictions and enforement are necessary - mainly due to the selfish attitude and behaviour of the few. I would actually like to see the police retake responsibility for enforement of parking restrictions as they at least did not treat it as revenue ( all fines went to central government). I also thought some of the old Traffic Wardens built up a good rapport with locals and actually did a good job not like the 'hit and run' tactics used by the council employed enforcers. the-e-man
  • Score: 18

4:20pm Mon 21 Jul 14

courier46 says...

Don't park like a moron,so many do ,able bodied in disabled ,no children parking in parents and child and countless others who think they can block roads and drives as they want.
Don't park like a moron,so many do ,able bodied in disabled ,no children parking in parents and child and countless others who think they can block roads and drives as they want. courier46
  • Score: 12

7:00pm Mon 21 Jul 14

wallman says...

piaggio1 wrote:
Certain i saw this car on the A63 . Couple o weeks ago at cliffe...what the hell wer it doing out there.??
driver lives there?
[quote][p][bold]piaggio1[/bold] wrote: Certain i saw this car on the A63 . Couple o weeks ago at cliffe...what the hell wer it doing out there.??[/p][/quote]driver lives there? wallman
  • Score: 1

8:15pm Mon 21 Jul 14

councilwatch says...

Another money making project. Next, out with the free reduced parking ticket in with a £20 charge - helps to pay for the Lendal Bridge sham.
Another money making project. Next, out with the free reduced parking ticket in with a £20 charge - helps to pay for the Lendal Bridge sham. councilwatch
  • Score: 3

8:33pm Mon 21 Jul 14

Cheeky face says...

Original Homer is spot on again.

The council's contract is with a firm, whose driver resides near Barmby on the Marsh. That is not an issue.

What is a concern is if school starting/finishing times have the van elsewhere! On school holidays does the van driver have annual leave; or visit non-school areas all the time.

Could the van driver catch the other transgressions and report back to the council?

A series of warnings by the council at Murton could have happened.

Garden Place I think is like a clearway to let buses turn round.

Signs saying CCTV cameras or similar could help; even as a deterrent.

Many county councils pay to have strategically displayed "enforcement cameras in use" signs knowing they do not have funds for such equipment. A good percentage of those areas average speed is down, after the signs going up.

Just how many cars/vans are parked on the wrong side of the road at night, when they are not exempt from sodoing.

Read the council's web-site re the car van's routes, and actions by the van driver makes some sense. Having said that the council's web-site page re Coppergate prohibition of motor vehicles is a joke, and no one in the Council is tackling that- it certainly CANNOT be a bus lane/gate. They are not using the CCTV now at Coppergate and have not done so since the Lendal Br fine refund was offered to those (fined) who hear/read about that bizarre offer. How can the council say the fine money is an entitlement and then give it back, ( in reality), to locally based motorists.
Original Homer is spot on again. The council's contract is with a firm, whose driver resides near Barmby on the Marsh. That is not an issue. What is a concern is if school starting/finishing times have the van elsewhere! On school holidays does the van driver have annual leave; or visit non-school areas all the time. Could the van driver catch the other transgressions and report back to the council? A series of warnings by the council at Murton could have happened. Garden Place I think is like a clearway to let buses turn round. Signs saying CCTV cameras or similar could help; even as a deterrent. Many county councils pay to have strategically displayed "enforcement cameras in use" signs knowing they do not have funds for such equipment. A good percentage of those areas average speed is down, after the signs going up. Just how many cars/vans are parked on the wrong side of the road at night, when they are not exempt from sodoing. Read the council's web-site re the car van's routes, and actions by the van driver makes some sense. Having said that the council's web-site page re Coppergate prohibition of motor vehicles is a joke, and no one in the Council is tackling that- it certainly CANNOT be a bus lane/gate. They are not using the CCTV now at Coppergate and have not done so since the Lendal Br fine refund was offered to those (fined) who hear/read about that bizarre offer. How can the council say the fine money is an entitlement and then give it back, ( in reality), to locally based motorists. Cheeky face
  • Score: 0

8:48pm Mon 21 Jul 14

yawn.. says...

It really is an extraordinarily simple premiss to get to grips with... if you don't park like an inconsiderate, self obsessed, half witted bell end.... well then, you wont get ticketed.. simples. Keep up the good work COYC.! Perhaps they could also target the people who don't know how to use yellow box junctions also.
It really is an extraordinarily simple premiss to get to grips with... if you don't park like an inconsiderate, self obsessed, half witted bell end.... well then, you wont get ticketed.. simples. Keep up the good work COYC.! Perhaps they could also target the people who don't know how to use yellow box junctions also. yawn..
  • Score: 12

9:30pm Mon 21 Jul 14

AnotherPointofView says...

Well done Cllr Warters.

I supported the introduction of the spy van for areas outside schools but with only 3% of fines outside schools, talk about mission creep? It's just another way for this council to get back against the motorists following the debacle that was Lendal Bridge and Coppergate.

Since there was no apology last week from those councillors who introduced LB, then roll on next years elections! Anyone remember Cllr Merrit saying he would resign if the scheme was illegal? I guess he's forgotten.
Well done Cllr Warters. I supported the introduction of the spy van for areas outside schools but with only 3% of fines outside schools, talk about mission creep? It's just another way for this council to get back against the motorists following the debacle that was Lendal Bridge and Coppergate. Since there was no apology last week from those councillors who introduced LB, then roll on next years elections! Anyone remember Cllr Merrit saying he would resign if the scheme was illegal? I guess he's forgotten. AnotherPointofView
  • Score: 4

11:11pm Mon 21 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

Well he/she may live there.but i hope it ain.t my council tax thats payin the fuel..same as the other ycc employee who parks the ycc van at barmby in the massive (no its big) house ..so i.m sorry pal it IS important .
Well he/she may live there.but i hope it ain.t my council tax thats payin the fuel..same as the other ycc employee who parks the ycc van at barmby in the massive (no its big) house ..so i.m sorry pal it IS important . piaggio1
  • Score: 3

4:06am Tue 22 Jul 14

Magicman! says...

Send the 'spy car' up and down yearsley grove (huntington) this week at 3pm and 3.20pm, should be able to "balance the books" as it were...
Send the 'spy car' up and down yearsley grove (huntington) this week at 3pm and 3.20pm, should be able to "balance the books" as it were... Magicman!
  • Score: 2

9:25am Tue 22 Jul 14

the-e-man says...

I believe that what upsets the motorist so much is that they are treated like an easy touch. These camera vans and the similar vans used by the police do generate lot of income.
There is a hard core or people in York (indeed in every city and town in this country) who get up in the morning with every intention of committing crime - whether it be house burglary, shed burglary or shoplifting. Due to the cost of bringing these people to justice ( Court time, legal aid and Police time due to bureaucratic proceedures and form filling ) they continue with their illigal and anti social activities almost untouched.
If the same level of effort and methods of enforcement ( both in detection and punishment) were used to combat crime as it is used to persue the motorist then I am sure these camera vans would become much more acceptable.
I believe that what upsets the motorist so much is that they are treated like an easy touch. These camera vans and the similar vans used by the police do generate lot of income. There is a hard core or people in York (indeed in every city and town in this country) who get up in the morning with every intention of committing crime - whether it be house burglary, shed burglary or shoplifting. Due to the cost of bringing these people to justice ( Court time, legal aid and Police time due to bureaucratic proceedures and form filling ) they continue with their illigal and anti social activities almost untouched. If the same level of effort and methods of enforcement ( both in detection and punishment) were used to combat crime as it is used to persue the motorist then I am sure these camera vans would become much more acceptable. the-e-man
  • Score: 2

9:59am Tue 22 Jul 14

oracale1 says...

George Orwell would be proud.
Central government has told you to stop using them so do as your told.
Roll on May
George Orwell would be proud. Central government has told you to stop using them so do as your told. Roll on May oracale1
  • Score: 1

11:45am Tue 22 Jul 14

johnwill says...

The Government has made it clear that cameras, ( cars or static) should not be used as a way of raising revenue and although not banning their use, has set out guidelines where their use is acceptable , which in general terms is when a vehicle is causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, stopping on a double yellow for a couple of minutes to drop something off or pick up something is not (in the governments view) a proper use of these cameras.
Beware York City Council you could be re-paying more penalties that you have wrongly issued.
The Government has made it clear that cameras, ( cars or static) should not be used as a way of raising revenue and although not banning their use, has set out guidelines where their use is acceptable , which in general terms is when a vehicle is causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, stopping on a double yellow for a couple of minutes to drop something off or pick up something is not (in the governments view) a proper use of these cameras. Beware York City Council you could be re-paying more penalties that you have wrongly issued. johnwill
  • Score: 2

1:34pm Tue 22 Jul 14

the original Homer says...

johnwill wrote:
The Government has made it clear that cameras, ( cars or static) should not be used as a way of raising revenue and although not banning their use, has set out guidelines where their use is acceptable , which in general terms is when a vehicle is causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, stopping on a double yellow for a couple of minutes to drop something off or pick up something is not (in the governments view) a proper use of these cameras.
Beware York City Council you could be re-paying more penalties that you have wrongly issued.
I agree that any PCNs issued for simply stopping on double yellows should be refunded. From what I've read though, I don't think any of those have been issued.

A few example shave been published where people have claimed they were "just stopped on a double yellow" but I've looked up each location and it's been more than double yellows - usually a no stopping or waiting area, such as a clearway.

Stopping in those areas is classed as causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, so it looks like the cameras are already being used exactly as you want.

What does seem to be common though is for those caught not being aware of the difference between double yellows and clearways.

Maybe that is the real issue - drivers needing educating. I suspect most are just lack of knowledge so maybe some sort of publicity drive would have been better than a camera car. It seems many of those caught still don't know what they've done wrong, so not a lot has been gained by the camera car and PCNs.
[quote][p][bold]johnwill[/bold] wrote: The Government has made it clear that cameras, ( cars or static) should not be used as a way of raising revenue and although not banning their use, has set out guidelines where their use is acceptable , which in general terms is when a vehicle is causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, stopping on a double yellow for a couple of minutes to drop something off or pick up something is not (in the governments view) a proper use of these cameras. Beware York City Council you could be re-paying more penalties that you have wrongly issued.[/p][/quote]I agree that any PCNs issued for simply stopping on double yellows should be refunded. From what I've read though, I don't think any of those have been issued. A few example shave been published where people have claimed they were "just stopped on a double yellow" but I've looked up each location and it's been more than double yellows - usually a no stopping or waiting area, such as a clearway. Stopping in those areas is classed as causing a hazard, danger or obstruction, so it looks like the cameras are already being used exactly as you want. What does seem to be common though is for those caught not being aware of the difference between double yellows and clearways. Maybe that is the real issue - drivers needing educating. I suspect most are just lack of knowledge so maybe some sort of publicity drive would have been better than a camera car. It seems many of those caught still don't know what they've done wrong, so not a lot has been gained by the camera car and PCNs. the original Homer
  • Score: 2

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