More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

More than 200 march through York city centre in pay protest

First published in News
Last updated
York Press: Photograph of the Author by , Chief reporter

MORE than 200 trade unionists marched through York city centre in protest at pay, pensions and cuts in public services.

Members of unions including the National Union of Teachers (NUT), Unison, Unite, the GMB, and the The Fire Brigades Union (FBU) took part in yesterday’s march, which began by Clifford’s Tower and ended with a rally in St Sampson’s Square.

Shoppers and tourists looked on as marchers chanted: “What do we want? Fair Pay. When do we want it? Now!”

The march coincided with a one-day strike by public sector workers which affected schools and council services across York, North and East Yorkshire.

City of York Council said about ten per cent of its staff took part, with garden waste collections affected in Huntington and Haxby. Residents are being asked to present their waste again in two weeks. Communal recycling was also affected in Holgate Road/Acomb Road, as was kerbside recycling collections in a number of local streets.

Council facilities including Energise and Yearsley Pool and household waste and recycling centres were open as normal, while five primary schools were completely closed, and 12 primary and four secondary schools were partially closed.

Teacher and NUT member Steve Flintoff, who travelled fromScarborough to take part, said the action was not just about the one per cent cap in public sector pay but also about increasing workload and bureaucracy in schools which were resulting in teachers working a 60-hour week.

Emma Green, of Unison, who works for York’s youth offending team, said that as well as pay, she was concerned about the continuing loss of qualified staff which left fewer employees working longer and harder, with an impact on the service they delivered.

Edmund Billing, of the FBU, said that while members were on strike as part of a continuing dispute over pensions, the action was deliberately timed to coincide with strikes by other public sector workers. At the rally, NUT member and Knaresborough teacher Gary Kaye played his guitar to lead marchers in a protest song before Heather McKenzie, who represents Unison members at York council, said: “We are in a desperate position. We have to take a stand.”

Ian Craven, of the PCS, said: “This is a Government made up of the rich, for the rich... the message to the Government is this: end the pay cap or we will be back to strike again.”

The Prime Minister and other senior politicians have attacked the strikes, arguing they were based on ballots conducted some years ago, and the Conservatives are drawing up plans to change employment law so a threshold of those balloted would have to be reached before industrial action could be held.


Who was on strike and on the march yesterday

THE strikers included council staff and school support workers, in unions such as Unison, who had dismissed a one per cent pay offer but who were also protesting against cuts which they said had left too few staff doing too much work.

Civil servants in the PCS union were also involved, with about 150 at Imphal Barracks and another 40 at RAF Linton on Ouse said to be on strike.

Teachers from the NUT were on strike over pay, but were also protesting about rising workloads.

Firefighters from the FBU were taking part in their latest strike in a long-running dispute over pensions and retirement age.

Comments (79)

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1:35pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Oh my............ says...

Fabulous. I support you all and hope you get the pay you deserve. I worked in the public sector for many years until a recent change of fortune and a move back to York and so I appreciate why you have made the hard decision to strike. Yes it will cause some inconvenience but that illustrates how essential and important the public sector is; a jewel in our crown, lets not let it fade?
Fabulous. I support you all and hope you get the pay you deserve. I worked in the public sector for many years until a recent change of fortune and a move back to York and so I appreciate why you have made the hard decision to strike. Yes it will cause some inconvenience but that illustrates how essential and important the public sector is; a jewel in our crown, lets not let it fade? Oh my............
  • Score: 39

1:45pm Thu 10 Jul 14

RealMcoy says...

Maybe you should be happy you have a job, im sure many people out of work would be happy to work on your current terms. If your not happy look for a new job. If you do get your way for a pay rise how will it be paid for??? laying people off most likely then you'll strike cause of understaffing
Maybe you should be happy you have a job, im sure many people out of work would be happy to work on your current terms. If your not happy look for a new job. If you do get your way for a pay rise how will it be paid for??? laying people off most likely then you'll strike cause of understaffing RealMcoy
  • Score: -37

1:57pm Thu 10 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Complete and utter waste of time. It will not change a thing and only serve to irritate those people less fortunate than the moaners . They really do not appreciate just how lucky they really are. There are many less fortunate people suffering on account of this selfish action. However, if it makes you feel better, carry on.....but you are just the pawns and cannon fodder of the union dinos, hankering after a thankfully bygone age. All you earn from this is the disgust of the dignified majority.
Complete and utter waste of time. It will not change a thing and only serve to irritate those people less fortunate than the moaners . They really do not appreciate just how lucky they really are. There are many less fortunate people suffering on account of this selfish action. However, if it makes you feel better, carry on.....but you are just the pawns and cannon fodder of the union dinos, hankering after a thankfully bygone age. All you earn from this is the disgust of the dignified majority. nearlyman
  • Score: -17

2:25pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Binkys says...

Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived .


You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits.

And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet.


If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people;

31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ?  Binkys
  • Score: -18

2:39pm Thu 10 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

Same kind of pay increase as the private sector - dont see why these guys think they would get any different, pay increases are crap for us all at the moment!

Pay increases in the private sector would ultimatley come from the shareholders , where will it come from in the public sector??
Same kind of pay increase as the private sector - dont see why these guys think they would get any different, pay increases are crap for us all at the moment! Pay increases in the private sector would ultimatley come from the shareholders , where will it come from in the public sector?? sounds weird but
  • Score: -9

2:43pm Thu 10 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

Cant fault that comment....bit of home truths there me thinks....bet none of em nipped into heron foods for their tea ! More like marksies/waitrose...
...
Cant fault that comment....bit of home truths there me thinks....bet none of em nipped into heron foods for their tea ! More like marksies/waitrose... ... piaggio1
  • Score: -2

2:46pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Charles Longbottom says...

No pay rise for me in the last three years.
No pay rise for me in the last three years. Charles Longbottom
  • Score: 61

3:33pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Dazmond says...

Welcome to the real world, where the rest of us work every hour god sends and have bugger all to show for it
Welcome to the real world, where the rest of us work every hour god sends and have bugger all to show for it Dazmond
  • Score: -2

3:35pm Thu 10 Jul 14

York2000 says...

As you can see from the comments above - The right wing Press comments team aren't going to like this...
As you can see from the comments above - The right wing Press comments team aren't going to like this... York2000
  • Score: 21

3:42pm Thu 10 Jul 14

eeoodares says...

Sick of this lot striking, everyone has been suffering. Many people can only dream of your pay, holiday and pension package. Stop whining and go do your job!
Sick of this lot striking, everyone has been suffering. Many people can only dream of your pay, holiday and pension package. Stop whining and go do your job! eeoodares
  • Score: -5

3:45pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Dazmond says...

eeoodares wrote:
Sick of this lot striking, everyone has been suffering. Many people can only dream of your pay, holiday and pension package. Stop whining and go do your job!
Well do it for the next 24 hours anyway as you're on holiday for 6 weeks after that
[quote][p][bold]eeoodares[/bold] wrote: Sick of this lot striking, everyone has been suffering. Many people can only dream of your pay, holiday and pension package. Stop whining and go do your job![/p][/quote]Well do it for the next 24 hours anyway as you're on holiday for 6 weeks after that Dazmond
  • Score: -4

3:48pm Thu 10 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

York2000.????
Sorry cant afford to be a socialist.
And YOU know it .they are all middle class .
And whats with the right wing thing???
You dont know me...............tha
nk god....
York2000.???? Sorry cant afford to be a socialist. And YOU know it .they are all middle class . And whats with the right wing thing??? You dont know me...............tha nk god.... piaggio1
  • Score: -13

3:59pm Thu 10 Jul 14

OldManSpeaks says...

Those of us who are self employed or work in the private sector will be mildly amused. As long as I have worked, if I wanted more money, I went and got another job. If I did not like that job I went and got another one. If your good at your job, and are skilled and driven you will be employed, if not you can work in the public sector.
Fundamentally people in the public sector think it is their right to get a bigger share of the the private sector tax payers money. They do not have that right.
I can't believe they are complaining about added bureaucracy, without bureaucracy most of them would not have jobs, it is this bureaucracy that keeps them in their jobs and makes it impossible to streamline the hopelessly managed departments that private sector ultimately pays for.
Being self employed, there is no way I would of wasted a days earnings on a jolly round town, you want more money yet you clearly have no respect for it.
Its a shame it didn't rain on you.
Those of us who are self employed or work in the private sector will be mildly amused. As long as I have worked, if I wanted more money, I went and got another job. If I did not like that job I went and got another one. If your good at your job, and are skilled and driven you will be employed, if not you can work in the public sector. Fundamentally people in the public sector think it is their right to get a bigger share of the the private sector tax payers money. They do not have that right. I can't believe they are complaining about added bureaucracy, without bureaucracy most of them would not have jobs, it is this bureaucracy that keeps them in their jobs and makes it impossible to streamline the hopelessly managed departments that private sector ultimately pays for. Being self employed, there is no way I would of wasted a days earnings on a jolly round town, you want more money yet you clearly have no respect for it. Its a shame it didn't rain on you. OldManSpeaks
  • Score: -6

4:17pm Thu 10 Jul 14

bolero says...

OldManSpeaks wrote:
Those of us who are self employed or work in the private sector will be mildly amused. As long as I have worked, if I wanted more money, I went and got another job. If I did not like that job I went and got another one. If your good at your job, and are skilled and driven you will be employed, if not you can work in the public sector.
Fundamentally people in the public sector think it is their right to get a bigger share of the the private sector tax payers money. They do not have that right.
I can't believe they are complaining about added bureaucracy, without bureaucracy most of them would not have jobs, it is this bureaucracy that keeps them in their jobs and makes it impossible to streamline the hopelessly managed departments that private sector ultimately pays for.
Being self employed, there is no way I would of wasted a days earnings on a jolly round town, you want more money yet you clearly have no respect for it.
Its a shame it didn't rain on you.
Aren't they wet enough?
[quote][p][bold]OldManSpeaks[/bold] wrote: Those of us who are self employed or work in the private sector will be mildly amused. As long as I have worked, if I wanted more money, I went and got another job. If I did not like that job I went and got another one. If your good at your job, and are skilled and driven you will be employed, if not you can work in the public sector. Fundamentally people in the public sector think it is their right to get a bigger share of the the private sector tax payers money. They do not have that right. I can't believe they are complaining about added bureaucracy, without bureaucracy most of them would not have jobs, it is this bureaucracy that keeps them in their jobs and makes it impossible to streamline the hopelessly managed departments that private sector ultimately pays for. Being self employed, there is no way I would of wasted a days earnings on a jolly round town, you want more money yet you clearly have no respect for it. Its a shame it didn't rain on you.[/p][/quote]Aren't they wet enough? bolero
  • Score: -6

4:23pm Thu 10 Jul 14

yorkshirelad says...

Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie.

In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector.

I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at.

The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.
Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie. In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector. I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at. The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good. yorkshirelad
  • Score: 36

4:31pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then.

It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights.

Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.
Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then. It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights. Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: 24

4:45pm Thu 10 Jul 14

ak7274 says...

Here's a thing.............Wh
en was the last time any of the Unions mentioned above fought for better pay and pensions for employees in the private sector?
What about the increase in pension age for Manual workers? Miners, Steel workers, Construction workers, Lorry drivers et al. Their bodies are jiggered by 60 never mind 68 increasing to who knows what. The public sector tends not to be of that type of physical labour, yet often take retirement at 55. Go figure.
I am a union member and have been for 35 years+ ,but get increasingly frustrated that the unions seem only to back the public sector.
Here's a thing.............Wh en was the last time any of the Unions mentioned above fought for better pay and pensions for employees in the private sector? What about the increase in pension age for Manual workers? Miners, Steel workers, Construction workers, Lorry drivers et al. Their bodies are jiggered by 60 never mind 68 increasing to who knows what. The public sector tends not to be of that type of physical labour, yet often take retirement at 55. Go figure. I am a union member and have been for 35 years+ ,but get increasingly frustrated that the unions seem only to back the public sector. ak7274
  • Score: -7

4:51pm Thu 10 Jul 14

ak7274 says...

Oh and by the way Yorkmackem1 When I was at conference last year, I asked several of the Union hierarchy about pension and more protection for the private sector and received various answers. One of which was " It's not about the race to the bottom,but we will look at this when we have achieved our goals for the public sector" It's not about the race to the bottom. It's about Private sector protection because there are more of them in the movement. Call that the Union ideal?
Oh and by the way Yorkmackem1 When I was at conference last year, I asked several of the Union hierarchy about pension and more protection for the private sector and received various answers. One of which was " It's not about the race to the bottom,but we will look at this when we have achieved our goals for the public sector" It's not about the race to the bottom. It's about Private sector protection because there are more of them in the movement. Call that the Union ideal? ak7274
  • Score: -6

5:15pm Thu 10 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Yorkmackem1 wrote:
Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then.

It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights.

Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.
I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails.
[quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then. It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights. Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.[/p][/quote]I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails. nearlyman
  • Score: -11

5:15pm Thu 10 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Yorkmackem1 wrote:
Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then.

It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights.

Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.
I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails.
[quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then. It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights. Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.[/p][/quote]I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails. nearlyman
  • Score: -23

5:16pm Thu 10 Jul 14

MouseHouse says...

Binkys wrote:
Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived .


You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits.

And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet.


If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people;

31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that.

if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen.

I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
[quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language. MouseHouse
  • Score: 31

5:30pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Dave Taylor says...

It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut!

Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.
It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut! Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed. Dave Taylor
  • Score: 40

5:34pm Thu 10 Jul 14

DaveBruebeck says...

MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote:
Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived .


You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits.

And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet.


If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people;

31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that.

if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen.

I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Nothing wrong with Lidl.

They just shaft you less than Tesco, Asda, etc.
[quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Nothing wrong with Lidl. They just shaft you less than Tesco, Asda, etc. DaveBruebeck
  • Score: 22

5:37pm Thu 10 Jul 14

CaroleBaines says...

After many years in the private sector I switched to public and to be honest, the pay, conditions etc are far better in the public domain. Pensions in particular have been squeezed due to non-employer influence pressures such as longevity, annuity rates and poor investment returns. So really, am not sure in the current climate there is much justification for striking, sorry guys, but we really are all in it together.
After many years in the private sector I switched to public and to be honest, the pay, conditions etc are far better in the public domain. Pensions in particular have been squeezed due to non-employer influence pressures such as longevity, annuity rates and poor investment returns. So really, am not sure in the current climate there is much justification for striking, sorry guys, but we really are all in it together. CaroleBaines
  • Score: -10

5:40pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Yorkshine1 says...

York full of right wingers shocker.

First off, there were middle class people there but I also saw a fair share of minimum wage staff, homeless guys, and older people. I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively working class peoplpe at UKIP rallies either.

It's not a case of public vs private, that's what they want. It's a case of people (me, you and us) Vs the establishment, the government and the super rich that are taking us all for t*ssers.

People wear their ' i work 70 hours a week for nothing, 20 days holiday' etc as a badge of honour. It isn't. Organise yourselves and fight for better.
York full of right wingers shocker. First off, there were middle class people there but I also saw a fair share of minimum wage staff, homeless guys, and older people. I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively working class peoplpe at UKIP rallies either. It's not a case of public vs private, that's what they want. It's a case of people (me, you and us) Vs the establishment, the government and the super rich that are taking us all for t*ssers. People wear their ' i work 70 hours a week for nothing, 20 days holiday' etc as a badge of honour. It isn't. Organise yourselves and fight for better. Yorkshine1
  • Score: 40

5:41pm Thu 10 Jul 14

CaroleBaines says...

Dave Taylor wrote:
It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut!

Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.
A little naïve there, Dave. The reasons for poor pensions are longevity, poor annuity rates and poor investment returns in recent years (FTSE 100 still lower than it was in 1999). Its not about a race to the bottom, its about there being a much reduced pot, of which public sector workers must be realistic about, rather than demanding an unfair share. The days of golden handshakes, retiring at 55 and 60th schemes are over and this has nothing to do with government cuts.

And I say this as a Labour voter and a public sector employee.
[quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut! Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.[/p][/quote]A little naïve there, Dave. The reasons for poor pensions are longevity, poor annuity rates and poor investment returns in recent years (FTSE 100 still lower than it was in 1999). Its not about a race to the bottom, its about there being a much reduced pot, of which public sector workers must be realistic about, rather than demanding an unfair share. The days of golden handshakes, retiring at 55 and 60th schemes are over and this has nothing to do with government cuts. And I say this as a Labour voter and a public sector employee. CaroleBaines
  • Score: -8

5:45pm Thu 10 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen.

Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?
[quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.? sounds weird but
  • Score: -16

5:49pm Thu 10 Jul 14

courier46 says...

I`m afraid I also agree that they should be grateful they have a quite well paid job with a pension .
A lot of people work very hard for a lot less pay than these people ,sometimes just be happy with your lot!
I`m afraid I also agree that they should be grateful they have a quite well paid job with a pension . A lot of people work very hard for a lot less pay than these people ,sometimes just be happy with your lot! courier46
  • Score: -14

5:51pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Phil__ says...

Dazmond wrote:
Welcome to the real world, where the rest of us work every hour god sends and have bugger all to show for it
I see 'every hour God sends' does not include 3pm on a Thursday afternoon when you are on the internet writing letters to the York Press.
[quote][p][bold]Dazmond[/bold] wrote: Welcome to the real world, where the rest of us work every hour god sends and have bugger all to show for it[/p][/quote]I see 'every hour God sends' does not include 3pm on a Thursday afternoon when you are on the internet writing letters to the York Press. Phil__
  • Score: 30

6:33pm Thu 10 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Dave Taylor wrote:
It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut!

Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.
Utter poppycock. No one said anything of the sort. They just pointed out that there are other people who are taking a battering, but with dignity. You can call as much as you like to throw money at public services, but the money is not there. A green govt. Would clearly bankrupt the country , but then again it wont happen so you can keep calling for unrealistic spending commitments without having to suffer the reality of having to deliver on them in your Disneyland utopia. Look what happened to the lib dems when they started to live in the real world.
[quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut! Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.[/p][/quote]Utter poppycock. No one said anything of the sort. They just pointed out that there are other people who are taking a battering, but with dignity. You can call as much as you like to throw money at public services, but the money is not there. A green govt. Would clearly bankrupt the country , but then again it wont happen so you can keep calling for unrealistic spending commitments without having to suffer the reality of having to deliver on them in your Disneyland utopia. Look what happened to the lib dems when they started to live in the real world. nearlyman
  • Score: -9

6:54pm Thu 10 Jul 14

andyjon12 says...

Binkys wrote:
Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived .


You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits.

And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet.


If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people;

31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I endorse your comments entirely - keep up the good work. These mollycoddled, middle class public sector shirkers are devoid of empathy - shame on these minions.
[quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I endorse your comments entirely - keep up the good work. These mollycoddled, middle class public sector shirkers are devoid of empathy - shame on these minions. andyjon12
  • Score: -18

7:04pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Mookie2 says...

yorkshirelad wrote:
Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie.

In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector.

I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at.

The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.
My public sector pension is IMMENSE in my opinion. I only pay a relatively small amount for an amazing pension! I hope this continues but sadly it can't, I think the politicians knew this years ago but are only changing things slowly to avoid too many strikes. This is purely my personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of anyone else or any Government department.
[quote][p][bold]yorkshirelad[/bold] wrote: Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie. In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector. I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at. The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.[/p][/quote]My public sector pension is IMMENSE in my opinion. I only pay a relatively small amount for an amazing pension! I hope this continues but sadly it can't, I think the politicians knew this years ago but are only changing things slowly to avoid too many strikes. This is purely my personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of anyone else or any Government department. Mookie2
  • Score: -11

7:11pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Mookie2 says...

CaroleBaines wrote:
After many years in the private sector I switched to public and to be honest, the pay, conditions etc are far better in the public domain. Pensions in particular have been squeezed due to non-employer influence pressures such as longevity, annuity rates and poor investment returns. So really, am not sure in the current climate there is much justification for striking, sorry guys, but we really are all in it together.
Agreed, I moved from the Private Sector to the Public Sector a few years ago. I will NEVER go back. The benefits, pay, pension and working conditions are amazing compared to the private sector. I just hope no one notices and changes things.
[quote][p][bold]CaroleBaines[/bold] wrote: After many years in the private sector I switched to public and to be honest, the pay, conditions etc are far better in the public domain. Pensions in particular have been squeezed due to non-employer influence pressures such as longevity, annuity rates and poor investment returns. So really, am not sure in the current climate there is much justification for striking, sorry guys, but we really are all in it together.[/p][/quote]Agreed, I moved from the Private Sector to the Public Sector a few years ago. I will NEVER go back. The benefits, pay, pension and working conditions are amazing compared to the private sector. I just hope no one notices and changes things. Mookie2
  • Score: -7

7:54pm Thu 10 Jul 14

MouseHouse says...

DaveBruebeck wrote:
MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote:
Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived .


You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits.

And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet.


If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people;

31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that.

if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen.

I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Nothing wrong with Lidl.

They just shaft you less than Tesco, Asda, etc.
spot on - and it's quicker!
[quote][p][bold]DaveBruebeck[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Nothing wrong with Lidl. They just shaft you less than Tesco, Asda, etc.[/p][/quote]spot on - and it's quicker! MouseHouse
  • Score: 7

8:07pm Thu 10 Jul 14

the commentator says...

these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me.
these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me. the commentator
  • Score: -21

8:16pm Thu 10 Jul 14

the commentator says...

yorkshirelad wrote:
Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie.

In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector.

I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at.

The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.
they pay a fraction of the cost to provide them with the pension that they receive at retirement, A FRACTION! It is us the tax payer that fund the huge employer contribution required.
[quote][p][bold]yorkshirelad[/bold] wrote: Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie. In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector. I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at. The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.[/p][/quote]they pay a fraction of the cost to provide them with the pension that they receive at retirement, A FRACTION! It is us the tax payer that fund the huge employer contribution required. the commentator
  • Score: -16

8:19pm Thu 10 Jul 14

nottoooldtocare says...

I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it.
In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax.

It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.
I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it. In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax. It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on. nottoooldtocare
  • Score: -1

8:24pm Thu 10 Jul 14

againstthecuts says...

200 people on a march is hardly a lot of people. The amount of people cancelling their membership with unison because they are unhappy with their level of service they are getting they must be losing a lot of money
200 people on a march is hardly a lot of people. The amount of people cancelling their membership with unison because they are unhappy with their level of service they are getting they must be losing a lot of money againstthecuts
  • Score: -9

9:03pm Thu 10 Jul 14

yorkie39 says...

If your all so jealous of public sector pay and conditions why don't you apply to work for the public sector after all you all have the right to do so just like every other person who is now a public servant , I suspect your attitudes might change once you started working in it , that's if your good enough of course .
If your all so jealous of public sector pay and conditions why don't you apply to work for the public sector after all you all have the right to do so just like every other person who is now a public servant , I suspect your attitudes might change once you started working in it , that's if your good enough of course . yorkie39
  • Score: 18

9:14pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Proudyorkshireman says...

the commentator wrote:
these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me.
If you are so unhappy with your job, why don't YOU leave instead......?! I'm pretty sure public sector jobs are there for all of the PUBLIC to apply......
[quote][p][bold]the commentator[/bold] wrote: these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me.[/p][/quote]If you are so unhappy with your job, why don't YOU leave instead......?! I'm pretty sure public sector jobs are there for all of the PUBLIC to apply...... Proudyorkshireman
  • Score: 25

9:33pm Thu 10 Jul 14

bolero says...

Considering things are so bad in the Public Sector I'm surprised anybody works there.
Considering things are so bad in the Public Sector I'm surprised anybody works there. bolero
  • Score: -5

9:58pm Thu 10 Jul 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Dave Taylor wrote:
It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut!

Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.
Well said Dave. Lets face it it was the Government who decided to deflect attention away from the real perpetrators of our problems by blaming the former Government and making out that public sector workers were a major cause of all this countries problems because they were overpaid and had gold plated pensions. One nil to Cameron there then. And whilst many seem to be knocking lumps out of public sector workers, just what the government wanted, they seem to have missed the small fact that those who created our issues through greed and some would say deception go on there merry way making even more money now in a year than most could expect to earn in a life time.

A letter praising Mr Cameron was I recall roundly criticised a short time ago but you have to hand it too him, he and his Government have got into most peoples heads on this one and formed a huge public movement which is against public sector employees and has forgotten how we got into this mess in the first place. Job done DC.

On the subject of pensions I would urge people to have a really good look at their own and their options. I have looked at them and came to the realisation that you would have to live a very long time to even start getting your money back and, if you were lucky enough to live that long, by the time you did you would be fortunate if you were able to stop dribbling for long enough to enjoy it. Having looked at both public and private pensions I could not see much difference. I would place a bet on one thing. Whoever is looking after all that money you are sacrificing for now will be making a small fortune from it and no doubt getting a healthy bonus from doing so.
[quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut! Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.[/p][/quote]Well said Dave. Lets face it it was the Government who decided to deflect attention away from the real perpetrators of our problems by blaming the former Government and making out that public sector workers were a major cause of all this countries problems because they were overpaid and had gold plated pensions. One nil to Cameron there then. And whilst many seem to be knocking lumps out of public sector workers, just what the government wanted, they seem to have missed the small fact that those who created our issues through greed and some would say deception go on there merry way making even more money now in a year than most could expect to earn in a life time. A letter praising Mr Cameron was I recall roundly criticised a short time ago but you have to hand it too him, he and his Government have got into most peoples heads on this one and formed a huge public movement which is against public sector employees and has forgotten how we got into this mess in the first place. Job done DC. On the subject of pensions I would urge people to have a really good look at their own and their options. I have looked at them and came to the realisation that you would have to live a very long time to even start getting your money back and, if you were lucky enough to live that long, by the time you did you would be fortunate if you were able to stop dribbling for long enough to enjoy it. Having looked at both public and private pensions I could not see much difference. I would place a bet on one thing. Whoever is looking after all that money you are sacrificing for now will be making a small fortune from it and no doubt getting a healthy bonus from doing so. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 20

10:13pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Chris HM says...

sounds weird but wrote:
MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen.

Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?
Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.
[quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?[/p][/quote]Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already. Chris HM
  • Score: 14

10:16pm Thu 10 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

They dare not leave .mainly cos they would have to do real work.they have become a bit of a laughing stock really.prob all go in the golden ball puttin the world to rights after 2 pints of some man an a dog brew.an as for your union leaders?all on £100.000+.they could not give 2monkeys bout members.years ago yes worth their while .even i was a member gmb.union officials ...great guys .but sadly let down by the top.
They dare not leave .mainly cos they would have to do real work.they have become a bit of a laughing stock really.prob all go in the golden ball puttin the world to rights after 2 pints of some man an a dog brew.an as for your union leaders?all on £100.000+.they could not give 2monkeys bout members.years ago yes worth their while .even i was a member gmb.union officials ...great guys .but sadly let down by the top. piaggio1
  • Score: -16

10:17pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Emperor Palpatine says...

the commentator wrote:
these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me.
Why not stop being so "glad", stop pulling your forelock, join a union and fight for better conditions? Your "race to the bottom" attitude is what's sickening.
[quote][p][bold]the commentator[/bold] wrote: these effin public workers are so detached from the real world it makes me sick. No pay rise here for 5 years but **** glad to have a job. No final salary pension here, but **** glad to have a job. If you dont like it that much LEAVE! You sicken me.[/p][/quote]Why not stop being so "glad", stop pulling your forelock, join a union and fight for better conditions? Your "race to the bottom" attitude is what's sickening. Emperor Palpatine
  • Score: 20

10:42pm Thu 10 Jul 14

LindaNess says...

Will we get reimbursed for the non collection of our green wheelie bins in Huntington, including the residents who have paid for a second bin? Outside all houses in the area are full bins and the council have blithely said on their website for us to present them again for collection in a fortnight. No room for garden waste until then!
Will we get reimbursed for the non collection of our green wheelie bins in Huntington, including the residents who have paid for a second bin? Outside all houses in the area are full bins and the council have blithely said on their website for us to present them again for collection in a fortnight. No room for garden waste until then! LindaNess
  • Score: -9

11:01pm Thu 10 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

Its not a race to the so called bottom.for christs sake we are skint.its just the sector workers ???? Have never understood that they are nowt differant to any other employee.get real .......and yes hang the bankers .all of em....
Its not a race to the so called bottom.for christs sake we are skint.its just the sector workers ???? Have never understood that they are nowt differant to any other employee.get real .......and yes hang the bankers .all of em.... piaggio1
  • Score: -8

11:09pm Thu 10 Jul 14

dweezil says...

Thank you to UNISON for leaving disabled people without access to Shopmobility to hire scooters because nobody thought to inform staff of Piccadilly car park closure. Your cause is greatly enhanced.
Thank you to UNISON for leaving disabled people without access to Shopmobility to hire scooters because nobody thought to inform staff of Piccadilly car park closure. Your cause is greatly enhanced. dweezil
  • Score: -5

11:38pm Thu 10 Jul 14

jay, york says...

The people who do good and honest work in the public sector have not had pay rises for years Now all of a sudden the private sector are out on strike because they dont feel they get what they deserve.. Pathetic. Why dont they step into the real world and see wht life is really about
The people who do good and honest work in the public sector have not had pay rises for years Now all of a sudden the private sector are out on strike because they dont feel they get what they deserve.. Pathetic. Why dont they step into the real world and see wht life is really about jay, york
  • Score: -5

11:42pm Thu 10 Jul 14

jay, york says...

piaggio1 wrote:
They dare not leave .mainly cos they would have to do real work.they have become a bit of a laughing stock really.prob all go in the golden ball puttin the world to rights after 2 pints of some man an a dog brew.an as for your union leaders?all on £100.000+.they could not give 2monkeys bout members.years ago yes worth their while .even i was a member gmb.union officials ...great guys .but sadly let down by the top.
very well said piaggio1 - you've obvously touched a nerve there!
[quote][p][bold]piaggio1[/bold] wrote: They dare not leave .mainly cos they would have to do real work.they have become a bit of a laughing stock really.prob all go in the golden ball puttin the world to rights after 2 pints of some man an a dog brew.an as for your union leaders?all on £100.000+.they could not give 2monkeys bout members.years ago yes worth their while .even i was a member gmb.union officials ...great guys .but sadly let down by the top.[/p][/quote]very well said piaggio1 - you've obvously touched a nerve there! jay, york
  • Score: -7

12:38am Fri 11 Jul 14

Emperor Palpatine says...

piaggio1 wrote:
Its not a race to the so called bottom.for christs sake we are skint.its just the sector workers ???? Have never understood that they are nowt differant to any other employee.get real .......and yes hang the bankers .all of em....
It a race to the bottom when people have the attitude of " I work 80 hours a week for minimum wage and minimum holiday entitlement but I'm grateful to have a job, any job and so should you be". Yes I'm exaggerating to make the point but you get the idea. Rather than have the mentality of a serf, something the Tories would dearly love the working class to have, go out and join a Trade Union, check out what your employment rights are and learn to say "no" when somebody tries to exploit you. You are right, the public sector workers are no different to private sector workers, it's the Tories who want to divide and rule. Rather than a public versus private battle it should be the "have nots" versus the "have more than we could ever needs". Actually come to think of it there is one difference, the public sector workers have the muscle and the willingness to use it. What was the MP's pay rise again? Oh yeah, that was it, 11%!!!!
[quote][p][bold]piaggio1[/bold] wrote: Its not a race to the so called bottom.for christs sake we are skint.its just the sector workers ???? Have never understood that they are nowt differant to any other employee.get real .......and yes hang the bankers .all of em....[/p][/quote]It a race to the bottom when people have the attitude of " I work 80 hours a week for minimum wage and minimum holiday entitlement but I'm grateful to have a job, any job and so should you be". Yes I'm exaggerating to make the point but you get the idea. Rather than have the mentality of a serf, something the Tories would dearly love the working class to have, go out and join a Trade Union, check out what your employment rights are and learn to say "no" when somebody tries to exploit you. You are right, the public sector workers are no different to private sector workers, it's the Tories who want to divide and rule. Rather than a public versus private battle it should be the "have nots" versus the "have more than we could ever needs". Actually come to think of it there is one difference, the public sector workers have the muscle and the willingness to use it. What was the MP's pay rise again? Oh yeah, that was it, 11%!!!! Emperor Palpatine
  • Score: 21

6:50am Fri 11 Jul 14

yawn.. says...

I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.
I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie. yawn..
  • Score: -4

7:15am Fri 11 Jul 14

Thecynic says...

With the numerous dealings I've had over the years with public sector workers, almost all with unsatisfactory service. I'd vote for a PAY CUT for them to be honest, I've yet to meet just one with an ounce of common sense when dealing with anyone.
With the numerous dealings I've had over the years with public sector workers, almost all with unsatisfactory service. I'd vote for a PAY CUT for them to be honest, I've yet to meet just one with an ounce of common sense when dealing with anyone. Thecynic
  • Score: -2

8:05am Fri 11 Jul 14

George Smiley says...

Strike, what is it 1974. Try paying for your own pension like most of us have to and stop expecting to be breast fed by the state.
Strike, what is it 1974. Try paying for your own pension like most of us have to and stop expecting to be breast fed by the state. George Smiley
  • Score: -4

8:17am Fri 11 Jul 14

CaroleBaines says...

nottoooldtocare wrote:
I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it.
In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax.

It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.
Applauds. Very well said - couldn't agree more.
[quote][p][bold]nottoooldtocare[/bold] wrote: I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it. In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax. It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.[/p][/quote]Applauds. Very well said - couldn't agree more. CaroleBaines
  • Score: -7

9:07am Fri 11 Jul 14

MrsHoney says...

I work in the public sector and yes I'm in the pension scheme. However, some people seem to think ALL public sector pensions are paid for out of their pockets. Ours is a private pension scheme that is paid for by the members, just as in the private sector. Saying that, I don't agree with the strikers. I think we're still in a time of austerity and should think ourselves lucky to have a job. I would feel awful knowing some people had been made redundant just so everyone could get a pay rise and lets face it, 1% on most people's salaries doesn't make much difference, an extra £40 a month, isn't worth much these days. We'll always be made out to be the villains though. For some reason people seem to think because our salaries are paid for by the public we should be earning a pittance with a bare skeleton of extras (ie holidays, pension etc). And if you don't like it work somewhere else. Yeah, you're really going to get a good workforce with that kind of attitude!
I work in the public sector and yes I'm in the pension scheme. However, some people seem to think ALL public sector pensions are paid for out of their pockets. Ours is a private pension scheme that is paid for by the members, just as in the private sector. Saying that, I don't agree with the strikers. I think we're still in a time of austerity and should think ourselves lucky to have a job. I would feel awful knowing some people had been made redundant just so everyone could get a pay rise and lets face it, 1% on most people's salaries doesn't make much difference, an extra £40 a month, isn't worth much these days. We'll always be made out to be the villains though. For some reason people seem to think because our salaries are paid for by the public we should be earning a pittance with a bare skeleton of extras (ie holidays, pension etc). And if you don't like it work somewhere else. Yeah, you're really going to get a good workforce with that kind of attitude! MrsHoney
  • Score: 7

10:04am Fri 11 Jul 14

The Junkyard Angel says...

nottoooldtocare wrote:
I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it.
In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax.

It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.
I agree. I worked for 20 years within the public sector and the number of sickie days pulled ( 6months full pay and 6 months half was abused on a regular basis) . A number of people were suspended for 'theft' of public money and reinstated as nobody as accountable, managers or anyone else. one colleague had allegedly stole thousands of pounds and it was all pushed under the carpet. Shame as the vast majority of staff are hard working ...
[quote][p][bold]nottoooldtocare[/bold] wrote: I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it. In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax. It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.[/p][/quote]I agree. I worked for 20 years within the public sector and the number of sickie days pulled ( 6months full pay and 6 months half was abused on a regular basis) . A number of people were suspended for 'theft' of public money and reinstated as nobody as accountable, managers or anyone else. one colleague had allegedly stole thousands of pounds and it was all pushed under the carpet. Shame as the vast majority of staff are hard working ... The Junkyard Angel
  • Score: -6

10:11am Fri 11 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

nearlyman wrote:
Yorkmackem1 wrote:
Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then.

It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights.

Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.
I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails.
The only people I see "whinging and moaning" on here are those in the private sector casting envious glances at those in the public sector who aren't being shafted by their employers.
[quote][p][bold]nearlyman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: Typical Press comments full of right wing anti-union prejudice, bile and envy, whilst competing for a race to the bottom and falling for the Divide and Rule trap so effectively. Don't like your private sector pay and conditions ? Join a union then. It was the unions that secured your holiday entitlement / sick pay / maternity pay and numerous other employment rights. Get off your knees and wake up to the real problem here.[/p][/quote]I don't think anyone is envious of your friends. Its far nicer to mingle with people who do not spend their lives whinging and moaning about their lot whilst fighting a non existent class war. Real people just get on with it or get on their bikes.....and then they actually enjoy their lives. Hardly surprising the use of anti depressants us rocketing, you are chasing your tails.[/p][/quote]The only people I see "whinging and moaning" on here are those in the private sector casting envious glances at those in the public sector who aren't being shafted by their employers. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: 11

10:17am Fri 11 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

CaroleBaines wrote:
Dave Taylor wrote:
It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut!

Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.
A little naïve there, Dave. The reasons for poor pensions are longevity, poor annuity rates and poor investment returns in recent years (FTSE 100 still lower than it was in 1999). Its not about a race to the bottom, its about there being a much reduced pot, of which public sector workers must be realistic about, rather than demanding an unfair share. The days of golden handshakes, retiring at 55 and 60th schemes are over and this has nothing to do with government cuts.

And I say this as a Labour voter and a public sector employee.
Why can it be possibly "fair" that public sector workers have to effectively fund the cost of the banking crisis, which was no fault of their own ?

And I don't accept this "no money" argument, it didn't seem to crop up when the Tories were carousing around their flooded shire heartlands saying "money is no object, we are a rich country".

And what happened to Osborne's pre-election pledge that "we will not consider a cut in the 50p tax rate whilst at the same time asking the public sector workers to accept a pay freeze", which he called at the time "grossly unfair". What happened there then ?

Fact is that these pay restrictions have NOTHING to do with economics and purely ideological.
[quote][p][bold]CaroleBaines[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: It's divisive and childish for some commentators to say, "Oh, I have a lousy pension," and infer that therefore EVERYONE should have a lousy pension. Tut! Congratulations to everyone who took the time to march today, and protest about cuts to public services, pensions and pay. These cuts are harming everyone except the super-rich and yet the less-well-off trade insults with the worst-off, failing to see that they are both being screwed.[/p][/quote]A little naïve there, Dave. The reasons for poor pensions are longevity, poor annuity rates and poor investment returns in recent years (FTSE 100 still lower than it was in 1999). Its not about a race to the bottom, its about there being a much reduced pot, of which public sector workers must be realistic about, rather than demanding an unfair share. The days of golden handshakes, retiring at 55 and 60th schemes are over and this has nothing to do with government cuts. And I say this as a Labour voter and a public sector employee.[/p][/quote]Why can it be possibly "fair" that public sector workers have to effectively fund the cost of the banking crisis, which was no fault of their own ? And I don't accept this "no money" argument, it didn't seem to crop up when the Tories were carousing around their flooded shire heartlands saying "money is no object, we are a rich country". And what happened to Osborne's pre-election pledge that "we will not consider a cut in the 50p tax rate whilst at the same time asking the public sector workers to accept a pay freeze", which he called at the time "grossly unfair". What happened there then ? Fact is that these pay restrictions have NOTHING to do with economics and purely ideological. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: 9

10:20am Fri 11 Jul 14

bolero says...

Ah well they'll all get a nice rest today seeing as they are back to work(?).
Ah well they'll all get a nice rest today seeing as they are back to work(?). bolero
  • Score: -8

10:32am Fri 11 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

yawn.. wrote:
I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.
Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most.

It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.
[quote][p][bold]yawn..[/bold] wrote: I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.[/p][/quote]Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most. It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: 10

10:36am Fri 11 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Yorkmackem1 wrote:
yawn.. wrote:
I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.
Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most.

It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.
Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of.
[quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]yawn..[/bold] wrote: I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.[/p][/quote]Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most. It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.[/p][/quote]Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of. nearlyman
  • Score: -8

10:37am Fri 11 Jul 14

tommytman says...

After reading all the comments on this page i feel sad to say that i.am part of the working class that pulls each other to pieces regarding terms and conditions of work places be it the private or public sector this goverment will not be happy untill we are back in victorian standards. they must be rubbing their hands to see the working class arguing with each other whilst they bleed the country dry saying were all in it together.the only way you will get any decent terms and conditions is to fight for them not to fight each other
After reading all the comments on this page i feel sad to say that i.am part of the working class that pulls each other to pieces regarding terms and conditions of work places be it the private or public sector this goverment will not be happy untill we are back in victorian standards. they must be rubbing their hands to see the working class arguing with each other whilst they bleed the country dry saying were all in it together.the only way you will get any decent terms and conditions is to fight for them not to fight each other tommytman
  • Score: 15

10:56am Fri 11 Jul 14

only human says...

The real problem is that people have no concept of how bad thing were when children were sent up the chimneys or under unguarded moving machinery in factories and mills across the country.The creation of the trades unions was to give the "working class " a voice against their paymasters.
Wages were set according to skill and not against the level of profit made by employers.
Todays "working class" covers a broader spectrum of occupations than in years gone by and the boundaries between "classes" are grey.
I personally believe all people are equal and i dont have pre conceptions about "class" based on occupation.
My concern is that people have become used to being treated like dispensible commodities in the jobs market and actually believe they are only worth what the market dictates per hour.
Employers are posting massive profits year on year without considering investing in their employees and securing their loyalty through annual wage increases.
The government has though the tax cedits system created a second tier of dependency by setting a minimum wage which many employers then take as an acceptable norm to pay in wages.
The tax credit bill must be massive whilst Mr superstore continues to expand off the back of massive profits whist paying paltry wages.This is a dangerous system which will all end up in yet another recession.
The unions are much weaker than in times gone by but a lot of that has to do with the fact that many people dont have the option to join one and some cant even afford to justify the monthly cost.
The majority of people in todays unions have been in them for many years and have secure well paid jobs which they are fighting to protect.
Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay.
Would we still have a "class" system if every working person was taking home the same pay.
Of course we would because people choose to spend their income differently and have different levels of education,occupation and friends and family.
The real problem is that people have no concept of how bad thing were when children were sent up the chimneys or under unguarded moving machinery in factories and mills across the country.The creation of the trades unions was to give the "working class " a voice against their paymasters. Wages were set according to skill and not against the level of profit made by employers. Todays "working class" covers a broader spectrum of occupations than in years gone by and the boundaries between "classes" are grey. I personally believe all people are equal and i dont have pre conceptions about "class" based on occupation. My concern is that people have become used to being treated like dispensible commodities in the jobs market and actually believe they are only worth what the market dictates per hour. Employers are posting massive profits year on year without considering investing in their employees and securing their loyalty through annual wage increases. The government has though the tax cedits system created a second tier of dependency by setting a minimum wage which many employers then take as an acceptable norm to pay in wages. The tax credit bill must be massive whilst Mr superstore continues to expand off the back of massive profits whist paying paltry wages.This is a dangerous system which will all end up in yet another recession. The unions are much weaker than in times gone by but a lot of that has to do with the fact that many people dont have the option to join one and some cant even afford to justify the monthly cost. The majority of people in todays unions have been in them for many years and have secure well paid jobs which they are fighting to protect. Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay. Would we still have a "class" system if every working person was taking home the same pay. Of course we would because people choose to spend their income differently and have different levels of education,occupation and friends and family. only human
  • Score: 7

11:06am Fri 11 Jul 14

the-e-man says...

nottoooldtocare wrote:
I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it.
In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax.

It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.
Under the 13 years of Labour Government Public spending went out of contr land the public sector expanded to unsustainable levels. A perfect example was the employment of the Police Community Support Wardens, This happened under Blunkets reign and the extra money needed to fund it was just added onto the budget which of course has to be met by the taxpayer. Brown not only raided the pension funds to pay for it all he also foolishly sold our gold reserves off when the price of gold was at its lowest.
All that is now happening is that the present Government is trying to get the cost of of the public sector down to a level that is affordable. There are no simple solutions. It is either a pay freeze or mass redundancies to reduce the Public Sector down to pre Blair/Brown levels. Public Sector Pensions are also unsustainable . They are far better than any equivilant worker can get in the Private Sector. If the present level of Public Sector Pensions are to be maintained who is to fund them? Can anyone please provide the answer.
I appreciate that to some ( those that have their heads in the sand) this is unacceptable and it will be reflected in the number of negative votes this posts receives but facts are facts and eventually will have to be met.
Home Secretary May did to the Police two years ago what is now being proposed to do to others in the Public Sector but of course the Police cannot strike so they merely had to accept it.
[quote][p][bold]nottoooldtocare[/bold] wrote: I too work in the public sector and have done for many years. There are some real grafters work with me, but also some that somehow get into the organisation but it is a devil of a job to get them out. In the private sector, if you don't perform you are out one way or another. Public sector is completely different, you really have to get caught with both hands in the till, and often. As per other comments, there are pro's and cons with both. I get a salary, but that's it, no matter how many hours I work, but it goes with the job in my opinion. The biggest change I would bring into the public sector is that you don't get paid sickness for the first three days you are off unless you have a sick note. It would be interesting to see the attendance figures after a year if that one was brought in. We all know those who play the system, but can't do a thing about it. In addition to the cuts being made by this government, we are also living with a legacy of previous governments, who have bought votes with jobs. I recall reading that public sector posts increased in excess of 500,000 under Gordon Brown's leadership. The same man is also responsible for the plundering of pension funds under some form of tax. It is time that we all took a step back and assessed what the really important things in life are, because they aren't 48" televisions, ipads/pod/phones and the like. Getting married and setting up home doesn't mean you have the right to the latest "brand new everything appliances". Do what generations before us did. Work hard, try to save up for things, recycle or buy second hand, save items for "bottom drawers". Learn the value of friends and family, as they are far more important than the latest technology, and have some self respect. Take pride in what you do, wherever you do it. Good managers/employers recognise loyalty and who the workers are, regardless of being public or private, and where possible they generally will try to reward it. The easy life and coasting are gone, accept it and move on.[/p][/quote]Under the 13 years of Labour Government Public spending went out of contr land the public sector expanded to unsustainable levels. A perfect example was the employment of the Police Community Support Wardens, This happened under Blunkets reign and the extra money needed to fund it was just added onto the budget which of course has to be met by the taxpayer. Brown not only raided the pension funds to pay for it all he also foolishly sold our gold reserves off when the price of gold was at its lowest. All that is now happening is that the present Government is trying to get the cost of of the public sector down to a level that is affordable. There are no simple solutions. It is either a pay freeze or mass redundancies to reduce the Public Sector down to pre Blair/Brown levels. Public Sector Pensions are also unsustainable . They are far better than any equivilant worker can get in the Private Sector. If the present level of Public Sector Pensions are to be maintained who is to fund them? Can anyone please provide the answer. I appreciate that to some ( those that have their heads in the sand) this is unacceptable and it will be reflected in the number of negative votes this posts receives but facts are facts and eventually will have to be met. Home Secretary May did to the Police two years ago what is now being proposed to do to others in the Public Sector but of course the Police cannot strike so they merely had to accept it. the-e-man
  • Score: -4

11:12am Fri 11 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

nearlyman wrote:
Yorkmackem1 wrote:
yawn.. wrote:
I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.
Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most.

It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.
Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of.
Disappointing that people like you feel the need to resort to personal abuse, rather than actually making a point.
[quote][p][bold]nearlyman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]yawn..[/bold] wrote: I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.[/p][/quote]Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most. It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.[/p][/quote]Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of.[/p][/quote]Disappointing that people like you feel the need to resort to personal abuse, rather than actually making a point. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: 9

12:13pm Fri 11 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

Chris HM wrote:
sounds weird but wrote:
MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?
Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.
Use your collective imagintion.
Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it.

A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach
[quote][p][bold]Chris HM[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?[/p][/quote]Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.[/p][/quote]Use your collective imagintion. Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it. A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach sounds weird but
  • Score: -6

12:29pm Fri 11 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

only human wrote:

"The majority of people in todays unions have been in them for many years and have secure well paid jobs which they are fighting to protect. Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay. Would we still have a "class" system if every working person was taking home the same pay."

This is old school, you need to get with it. Not like that any more whetheryou agree or not.

and as for 'Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay...' that is just way with the fairies!
only human wrote: "The majority of people in todays unions have been in them for many years and have secure well paid jobs which they are fighting to protect. Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay. Would we still have a "class" system if every working person was taking home the same pay." This is old school, you need to get with it. Not like that any more whetheryou agree or not. and as for 'Imagine the whole country on the same level of pay...' that is just way with the fairies! sounds weird but
  • Score: -4

1:28pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Minguel says...

My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on;

Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car.
Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can.

My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way…

I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now.
My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on; Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car. Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can. My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way… I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now. Minguel
  • Score: 6

2:30pm Fri 11 Jul 14

OldManSpeaks says...

Two farms in valley. My Farm, Farm A is privately owned and funded by profits, and initial capital loans from banks. We are doing OK, this years crop will be ace!

Farm A pays tax, Farm A's employees pay tax, and the profit from Farm A is used to pay down the debt, to keep the interest payments under control, pay the employees and of course invest in machinery and product for the farm. Farm A also offers a pension scheme, which is quite nice. Farm A is a happy happy place, its run by capitalist pigs but we are good capitalist pigs. Oink!

Farm B has employees and crops also. Its a very different Farm. It's paid for ultimately via Government debt and of course Farm A taxes. This is OK, the people working on Farm A appreciate that the work on Farm B is necessary.

Farm B's employees also pay taxes as will Farm B. However Farm B doesn't make any profit, in fact all its money has gone on the employees wages and some new offices. OK, no problem Farm B's employees will pay some tax after all its only right. Only hold on, Farm B employees are paid from Farm A employee Taxes and debt (thats money that is not really available) so this is funny money. The money paid in taxes by Farm B and the employees actually just reduces the cost of Farm B 's operation to the government, and as Farm B has made no profit the net financial contribution of Farm B is very-negative, this year, and every year.

Farm B made a loss, made no financial contribution to the country or the government financing it, and yet hold on, what this %&^^*, the employees and Managers on Farm B want more money.

The sun shines down on Farm A, everyday, Farm B struggles with discontent, it can never be Farm A, why, because its funded by fiat money. Long story short Farm B employees eventually get some sunshine and a rise (someone prints some more money). Then inflation kicks in, this is how government debt is reduced, once again people on Farm B are unhappy, "we have more more money, but it does not go as far as it used to", only now they have also F^&%d Farm A's employees over.

Thanks, Farm B you had it great.....look at us ALL now. The pigs in Farm A are very unhappy with cows in Farm B. The only question is will it be steak or bangers on the BBQ? :)
Two farms in valley. My Farm, Farm A is privately owned and funded by profits, and initial capital loans from banks. We are doing OK, this years crop will be ace! Farm A pays tax, Farm A's employees pay tax, and the profit from Farm A is used to pay down the debt, to keep the interest payments under control, pay the employees and of course invest in machinery and product for the farm. Farm A also offers a pension scheme, which is quite nice. Farm A is a happy happy place, its run by capitalist pigs but we are good capitalist pigs. Oink! Farm B has employees and crops also. Its a very different Farm. It's paid for ultimately via Government debt and of course Farm A taxes. This is OK, the people working on Farm A appreciate that the work on Farm B is necessary. Farm B's employees also pay taxes as will Farm B. However Farm B doesn't make any profit, in fact all its money has gone on the employees wages and some new offices. OK, no problem Farm B's employees will pay some tax after all its only right. Only hold on, Farm B employees are paid from Farm A employee Taxes and debt (thats money that is not really available) so this is funny money. The money paid in taxes by Farm B and the employees actually just reduces the cost of Farm B 's operation to the government, and as Farm B has made no profit the net financial contribution of Farm B is very-negative, this year, and every year. Farm B made a loss, made no financial contribution to the country or the government financing it, and yet hold on, what this %&^^*, the employees and Managers on Farm B want more money. The sun shines down on Farm A, everyday, Farm B struggles with discontent, it can never be Farm A, why, because its funded by fiat money. Long story short Farm B employees eventually get some sunshine and a rise (someone prints some more money). Then inflation kicks in, this is how government debt is reduced, once again people on Farm B are unhappy, "we have more more money, but it does not go as far as it used to", only now they have also F^&%d Farm A's employees over. Thanks, Farm B you had it great.....look at us ALL now. The pigs in Farm A are very unhappy with cows in Farm B. The only question is will it be steak or bangers on the BBQ? :) OldManSpeaks
  • Score: -8

2:39pm Fri 11 Jul 14

holyroller says...

OldManSpeaks wrote:
Two farms in valley. My Farm, Farm A is privately owned and funded by profits, and initial capital loans from banks. We are doing OK, this years crop will be ace!

Farm A pays tax, Farm A's employees pay tax, and the profit from Farm A is used to pay down the debt, to keep the interest payments under control, pay the employees and of course invest in machinery and product for the farm. Farm A also offers a pension scheme, which is quite nice. Farm A is a happy happy place, its run by capitalist pigs but we are good capitalist pigs. Oink!

Farm B has employees and crops also. Its a very different Farm. It's paid for ultimately via Government debt and of course Farm A taxes. This is OK, the people working on Farm A appreciate that the work on Farm B is necessary.

Farm B's employees also pay taxes as will Farm B. However Farm B doesn't make any profit, in fact all its money has gone on the employees wages and some new offices. OK, no problem Farm B's employees will pay some tax after all its only right. Only hold on, Farm B employees are paid from Farm A employee Taxes and debt (thats money that is not really available) so this is funny money. The money paid in taxes by Farm B and the employees actually just reduces the cost of Farm B 's operation to the government, and as Farm B has made no profit the net financial contribution of Farm B is very-negative, this year, and every year.

Farm B made a loss, made no financial contribution to the country or the government financing it, and yet hold on, what this %&^^*, the employees and Managers on Farm B want more money.

The sun shines down on Farm A, everyday, Farm B struggles with discontent, it can never be Farm A, why, because its funded by fiat money. Long story short Farm B employees eventually get some sunshine and a rise (someone prints some more money). Then inflation kicks in, this is how government debt is reduced, once again people on Farm B are unhappy, "we have more more money, but it does not go as far as it used to", only now they have also F^&%d Farm A's employees over.

Thanks, Farm B you had it great.....look at us ALL now. The pigs in Farm A are very unhappy with cows in Farm B. The only question is will it be steak or bangers on the BBQ? :)
@oldmanspeaks
Farm B isnt actually a farm, it's a hospital, library, sickness benefit or whatever other public service you slate until you need it.

Divide and rule is as successful as ever going by these comments.
[quote][p][bold]OldManSpeaks[/bold] wrote: Two farms in valley. My Farm, Farm A is privately owned and funded by profits, and initial capital loans from banks. We are doing OK, this years crop will be ace! Farm A pays tax, Farm A's employees pay tax, and the profit from Farm A is used to pay down the debt, to keep the interest payments under control, pay the employees and of course invest in machinery and product for the farm. Farm A also offers a pension scheme, which is quite nice. Farm A is a happy happy place, its run by capitalist pigs but we are good capitalist pigs. Oink! Farm B has employees and crops also. Its a very different Farm. It's paid for ultimately via Government debt and of course Farm A taxes. This is OK, the people working on Farm A appreciate that the work on Farm B is necessary. Farm B's employees also pay taxes as will Farm B. However Farm B doesn't make any profit, in fact all its money has gone on the employees wages and some new offices. OK, no problem Farm B's employees will pay some tax after all its only right. Only hold on, Farm B employees are paid from Farm A employee Taxes and debt (thats money that is not really available) so this is funny money. The money paid in taxes by Farm B and the employees actually just reduces the cost of Farm B 's operation to the government, and as Farm B has made no profit the net financial contribution of Farm B is very-negative, this year, and every year. Farm B made a loss, made no financial contribution to the country or the government financing it, and yet hold on, what this %&^^*, the employees and Managers on Farm B want more money. The sun shines down on Farm A, everyday, Farm B struggles with discontent, it can never be Farm A, why, because its funded by fiat money. Long story short Farm B employees eventually get some sunshine and a rise (someone prints some more money). Then inflation kicks in, this is how government debt is reduced, once again people on Farm B are unhappy, "we have more more money, but it does not go as far as it used to", only now they have also F^&%d Farm A's employees over. Thanks, Farm B you had it great.....look at us ALL now. The pigs in Farm A are very unhappy with cows in Farm B. The only question is will it be steak or bangers on the BBQ? :)[/p][/quote]@oldmanspeaks Farm B isnt actually a farm, it's a hospital, library, sickness benefit or whatever other public service you slate until you need it. Divide and rule is as successful as ever going by these comments. holyroller
  • Score: 13

5:40pm Fri 11 Jul 14

oi oi savaloy says...

200 march whilst lots play golf, go shopping, the great Yorkshire was more than busy AND best of all some council workers were working for cash in hand jobbing!! FACT!
200 march whilst lots play golf, go shopping, the great Yorkshire was more than busy AND best of all some council workers were working for cash in hand jobbing!! FACT! oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -4

5:55pm Fri 11 Jul 14

nearlyman says...

Yorkmackem1 wrote:
nearlyman wrote:
Yorkmackem1 wrote:
yawn.. wrote:
I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.
Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most.

It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.
Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of.
Disappointing that people like you feel the need to resort to personal abuse, rather than actually making a point.
I have made several, however, you will ,no dobt, live out your life looking backwards rather than forwards. You will always be the class warrior, us an them pub bore that people find so tedious , but they will bite their tongues for fear of you going off on another rant ,when all they want to do is chill out and enjoy the good things in life that no amount of money, position or wealth can buy. The trouble is you are so wrapped up in your futile crusadeyou will never fll upon those wonderful things.
[quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]nearlyman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkmackem1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]yawn..[/bold] wrote: I'd like a pay rise too.. I'd like a decent pension too.. but realistically it simply isn't gonna happen while ever people justify other people earning £700 a day and beyond. To the VAST majority of us this kind money represents wages beyond the dreams of avarice. There's only so much money to go around, and the stark reality of it is that it stays in the hands of the chosen few. Never mind the little nobodies, the low life globules of sputum floating in the toilet bowl of life, THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING who make society bearable for the rest of us, WE, are simply the people who make life so nicey nice for the people who's lives smell of leather and Dulux. Stamp your feet all you want, but it aint just you that's hurting right now, everyone's had to pull there belt in.. for years now.. other than a few stinking rich people who are quite content to carry on eating all the pie.[/p][/quote]Which is exactly why a strike is needed. Withdrawal of labour is where it hurts the rich paymasters the most. It baffles me how many people in the private sector are willing to just sit back and accept their lot, whilst their bosses continue to aware themselves massive pay rises on the back of their employees. These people are taking the shirt from your back - do something about it.[/p][/quote]Probably because they have a wealth of common sense which you appear to be utterly devoid of.[/p][/quote]Disappointing that people like you feel the need to resort to personal abuse, rather than actually making a point.[/p][/quote]I have made several, however, you will ,no dobt, live out your life looking backwards rather than forwards. You will always be the class warrior, us an them pub bore that people find so tedious , but they will bite their tongues for fear of you going off on another rant ,when all they want to do is chill out and enjoy the good things in life that no amount of money, position or wealth can buy. The trouble is you are so wrapped up in your futile crusadeyou will never fll upon those wonderful things. nearlyman
  • Score: -4

10:28pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Minguel says...

Minguel wrote:
My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on;

Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car.
Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can.

My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way…

I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now.
Why has nobody given an opposing view to my post????? I'm by no means an expert but I have on my side the same as most of you, common sense! I just want to hear an opposing opinion.
[quote][p][bold]Minguel[/bold] wrote: My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on; Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car. Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can. My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way… I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now.[/p][/quote]Why has nobody given an opposing view to my post????? I'm by no means an expert but I have on my side the same as most of you, common sense! I just want to hear an opposing opinion. Minguel
  • Score: 0

5:23pm Sat 12 Jul 14

Chris HM says...

sounds weird but wrote:
Chris HM wrote:
sounds weird but wrote:
MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?
Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.
Use your collective imagintion.
Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it.

A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach
Do you actually think people who have taken strike action are not educated - some are highly educated. Strike action is usually the end of the road, when all the things that you suggest have been exhausted, you view is naïve. I wonder how you will feel when you need a vital service yourself and discover that the likes of Cameron and Osbourne have dismantled it, ( NB of course vital services will always be available for those who can pay for it privately)
[quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris HM[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?[/p][/quote]Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.[/p][/quote]Use your collective imagintion. Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it. A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach[/p][/quote]Do you actually think people who have taken strike action are not educated - some are highly educated. Strike action is usually the end of the road, when all the things that you suggest have been exhausted, you view is naïve. I wonder how you will feel when you need a vital service yourself and discover that the likes of Cameron and Osbourne have dismantled it, ( NB of course vital services will always be available for those who can pay for it privately) Chris HM
  • Score: 3

2:53pm Mon 14 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

Chris HM wrote:
sounds weird but wrote:
Chris HM wrote:
sounds weird but wrote:
MouseHouse wrote:
Binkys wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? 
I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.
Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?
Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.
Use your collective imagintion. Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it. A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach
Do you actually think people who have taken strike action are not educated - some are highly educated. Strike action is usually the end of the road, when all the things that you suggest have been exhausted, you view is naïve. I wonder how you will feel when you need a vital service yourself and discover that the likes of Cameron and Osbourne have dismantled it, ( NB of course vital services will always be available for those who can pay for it privately)
typical 'tried that and it didnt work' comment. This is classic of a reluctance to change.

I dont agree you have tried a strategic approach to this, if so you have not infiltarted the system suffienctly to make an impact. Try again. I say again, parading aroundi the streets is an outated approach whether you like it or not.

I have used essential services in the past year and my father is a nurse so I get the trustration. This does not support any argument of how this issue is eventually tackled
[quote][p][bold]Chris HM[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chris HM[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]sounds weird but[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MouseHouse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Binkys[/bold] wrote: Was walking past the strikers this afternoon , when I observed this . Hardly a working-class person in sight , instead I was confronted with an eye watering colorful display of , 'ditsy-print' tops' , bootcut jeans ,flowery shirts, Birkenstocks and £200 Berghaus jackets casually draped over portable folding chairs . Yes the Middle- classes had arrived . You know the ones , the ones who buy buy organic food and Fairtrade coffee, recycle Evian bottles,and think listening  to Bob Marley on there IPod is avant-garde . The ones who flock to farmers' markets like moths to a flame, you will see then nodding at their fellow middle-classes while pushing carts buying things like flaxseed oil, vintage wine, tofu versions of meat and exotic organic vegetables and fruits. And of course looking around this crowd of ' strikers' they all had an Apple product to tell the world they are creative and unique ,  only to be used by every other single college student, designer, writer, English/Music teacher and hipster on the planet. If you fit into the above category and can afford most of these material possessions you are not I guarantee on minimum wage . So why are you striking GREED? To line your pocket ? Please don't say to support your fellow working man when and I quote " One in four workers in the UK are paid minimum wage and 23 per cent of the UK population was in poverty – 13.5 million people; 31 per cent of children were in families in poverty – 4 million children"; joseph rowntree foundation . Are you striking for these people ? [/p][/quote]I was on the march and I can tell you right now I don't shop at Waitrose, I can no longer afford Tesco. It's Lidl for me, and if they don't have it in stock then we go without. My shoes are split, but my children need new ones so that's me doing without. Simple as that. if you want a race to the bottom where nobody has a decent pension but everybody is working 70 plus hours per week, you just carry on. If you think otherwise be there is September when the next strike is held, unless of course Mr. Cameron starts to talk and listen. I should also say I strongly disapproved of the swear used by the poet at the demo - loved the heart, loved the medium, didn't it need the foul and abusive language.[/p][/quote]Yes but this is the reality of it. You said it yourself 'unless Mr Cameron starts to talk and listen..' wll strikng is not going to make that happen. Why dont you direct your collective disatisfaction towards the govt in a more modern intelligent way instead of stopping provision of importantant services to an already stressed Joe Bloggs who is also suffering like you.?[/p][/quote]Can you think of a more modern intelligent way that might be listened to ?? think that's been tried already.[/p][/quote]Use your collective imagintion. Not always a case of 'them' listening. Get clued up/educated, enter the system and influence it and lay the game with a view to changing it. A strategy is required, not just stopping work, that is an outdaed approach[/p][/quote]Do you actually think people who have taken strike action are not educated - some are highly educated. Strike action is usually the end of the road, when all the things that you suggest have been exhausted, you view is naïve. I wonder how you will feel when you need a vital service yourself and discover that the likes of Cameron and Osbourne have dismantled it, ( NB of course vital services will always be available for those who can pay for it privately)[/p][/quote]typical 'tried that and it didnt work' comment. This is classic of a reluctance to change. I dont agree you have tried a strategic approach to this, if so you have not infiltarted the system suffienctly to make an impact. Try again. I say again, parading aroundi the streets is an outated approach whether you like it or not. I have used essential services in the past year and my father is a nurse so I get the trustration. This does not support any argument of how this issue is eventually tackled sounds weird but
  • Score: -2

3:02pm Mon 14 Jul 14

sounds weird but says...

Minguel wrote:
Minguel wrote: My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on; Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car. Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can. My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way… I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now.
Why has nobody given an opposing view to my post????? I'm by no means an expert but I have on my side the same as most of you, common sense! I just want to hear an opposing opinion.
ok.

' I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary' where is the money coming from? Sounds good but is this practical to apply and fund, especially with a small organisation?

I'd ay a more workable solution is to adjust minimum wage or try and keep inflation down in the bigger scheme of things
[quote][p][bold]Minguel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Minguel[/bold] wrote: My issue is this; blanket pay increases only really serve to benefit the higher earners, and here is why. Person A earns £100k a year in a council managerial role. Person B earns £20k a year delivering a frontline service. If they both receive a 2% rise the difference between the two salaries changes from £80,000 to £81,600, and in the following year £83,232 etc etc. This may be all very well and good as person B still earns 20% of his ‘superior’ regardless, but the basic living costs remain blind to how much a person earns. A loaf of bread costs the same to a millionaire as it does to somebody on a minimum wage, as does a litre of fuel. It therefore follows that while person B has remained in same situation, tracking the basic cost of living (for arguments sake – I realise that 2% still represents essentially a pay cut in real terms), person A has now covered that increase and also gained an additional £1,600 disposable income, money that could be used to straight-line the raise across the sector. The argument for and against this will always depend on what step you’re standing on; Person A: I need a bigger pay increase because my big car costs a lot to run. You don’t need to run a car. Person B: I don’t need to run a car because I can’t afford one. I need a pay-rise so I can. My personal opinion on this is that anything above the basic living cost increase is down to personal choice. I heard a lady complaining to her friend at lunch that the uniforms for the private school her offspring were attending had got so expensive. I don’t think that needs adding to in any way… I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary. It would allow autonomy from the private sector in terms of it essentially being the same as raising the minimum tax free earnings threshold, and also prevent money from being absorbed by the much higher earners at a disproportionate rate. Reason why not? Well, it would mean that the influential decision making higher earners would not be earning the same percentage multiple of frontline workers as they were before and we can’t have that! They’ll be wanting to own the house that they live in next! I can’t help but think of the song ‘How ya gonna keep’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree’ as appropriate right now.[/p][/quote]Why has nobody given an opposing view to my post????? I'm by no means an expert but I have on my side the same as most of you, common sense! I just want to hear an opposing opinion.[/p][/quote]ok. ' I would submit that a workable solution to this is to give a percentage increase on, say, the first £10k of a salary' where is the money coming from? Sounds good but is this practical to apply and fund, especially with a small organisation? I'd ay a more workable solution is to adjust minimum wage or try and keep inflation down in the bigger scheme of things sounds weird but
  • Score: 0

3:31pm Mon 14 Jul 14

DJS83 says...

the commentator wrote:
yorkshirelad wrote:
Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie.

In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector.

I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at.

The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.
they pay a fraction of the cost to provide them with the pension that they receive at retirement, A FRACTION! It is us the tax payer that fund the huge employer contribution required.
Do the public sector workers pay taxes? I think so.
[quote][p][bold]the commentator[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]yorkshirelad[/bold] wrote: Do people realise that pensions are simply part of a package? And that public sector emplyers pay very hefty amounts into their pensions? The employers bit of the pension is known as an 'on-cost' and simply factored into the pay. Amazing how many people think of pensions as some sort of freebie. In the private sector, if the employers don't offer and support some sort of pension scheme, you should be fighting for that....not whinging at properly set up schemes in the public sector. I reckon there are pro's and con's between the private and public sector, so you cannot generalise but amazing that so many people fall for the Daily Mail extreme line on the public sector. They're just jobs...a lot of them low paid jobs and the overall package is what you need to look at. The unions are perfectly entitled to seek to improve their pay and conditions. This government has looked after it's own in the South East of England and generally looked after the wealthy...the only way it's got away with hammering the public sector has been peddling (via it's chums in the Daily Mail etc) this bizarre myth that somehow the public sector has it good.[/p][/quote]they pay a fraction of the cost to provide them with the pension that they receive at retirement, A FRACTION! It is us the tax payer that fund the huge employer contribution required.[/p][/quote]Do the public sector workers pay taxes? I think so. DJS83
  • Score: 2

5:00pm Mon 14 Jul 14

workingclassman says...

if they want a pay rise why dont they cut it from somewhere else in the budget. my ex worked for the council and on her first day she was told by her manager that she would be required to take a number of sick days each year, because if they wern't used they would be cut from next years budget. maybe they should stop this and it would free up some money.
if they want a pay rise why dont they cut it from somewhere else in the budget. my ex worked for the council and on her first day she was told by her manager that she would be required to take a number of sick days each year, because if they wern't used they would be cut from next years budget. maybe they should stop this and it would free up some money. workingclassman
  • Score: 1

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