Man "denied" help after collapsing at hospital doors

York Hospital

York Hospital

Updated in News

AN off-duty police officer who went to help an elderly man after he collapsed a metre from the doors of York Hospital said he was told to call for an ambulance.

Scott Moore, 37, who lives near Easingwold, said he was near the hospital entrance when a man who looked to be in his nineties fell over and appeared to be having chest problems.

But when Mr Moore and a nurse who was starting her shift called into the hospital for help, he said they were told the crash team would not go outside the building and they should call for an ambulance.

Mr Moore, a detective with West Yorkshire Police, said: “He was frothing at the mouth. He was banging at his chest saying ‘vascular, vascular’. I presumed it was to do with his heart.

“The guy on reception said ‘the crash team won’t come outside the hospital, you need to ring 999, you need to get an ambulance’.”

The nurse ran in to get a wheelchair and Mr Moore said they wheeled the man through the doors and he slipped from the chair as he had become unconscious.

Mr Moore said: “Then doctors and nurses came running through from all directions. There was eight to ten of them.”

However, he said he still had to wheel the man to A&E.

“The whole scenario was unbelievable.

You can’t imagine how his family would have felt if they had been there,” Mr Moore said.

A spokeswoman for York Hospital said they had a record of a man fainting and going home later that day in February.

She said: “Where a cardiac or respiratory arrest is suspected, action is taken to start basic resuscitation and summon help. A cardiac arrest team or a first responder is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, via an emergency bleep system. A crash call would be placed for an incident on the hospital site including the grounds.

The Trust policy with regard to resuscitation off the main hospital site is that staff should dial 999 and ask for an ambulance stating the exact location and the condition of the patient.

“If there was an incident in the close proximity of the entrance to A&E, a common-sense approach would be taken by staff in the emergency department.”

Mr Moore recently spoke to The Press as he felt attention should be drawn to the matter.

Comments (30)

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11:32am Fri 2 May 14

Platform9 says...

"The Trust policy with regard to resuscitation off the main hospital site is that staff should dial 999 and ask for an ambulance stating the exact location and the condition of the patient."

Too many Managers and not enough front-line staff making these policy rules.
"The Trust policy with regard to resuscitation off the main hospital site is that staff should dial 999 and ask for an ambulance stating the exact location and the condition of the patient." Too many Managers and not enough front-line staff making these policy rules. Platform9
  • Score: 89

11:44am Fri 2 May 14

X5019c says...

An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help.
An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help. X5019c
  • Score: 80

12:24pm Fri 2 May 14

Zetkin says...

A few years ago, some friends and I came across a man in a state of collapse just inside the hospital gates.

My friends administered such first aid as they could, whilst I ran to A&E for help. From the vantage point of her desk, the receptionist diagnosed the man as drunk and called security. Two security guards were sent to "deal" with the situation.

This included threatening my friends and me with a beating if we didn't leave the premises.

By this time, the man began to recover consciousness, and assured us he would be OK. I hope he was.

In retrospect, we wished we'd dragged the man off the premises and called an ambulance; that way at least he would have been seen by medical professionals rather than a pair of jumped-up night club bouncers.

With fewer nurses and doctors, but more managers, I suspect the situation has got worse over the intervening years.

I know from personal experience that York Hospital and its dedicated staff give fantastic care in the huge majority of cases, but I fear that underfunding and over-managing are leading us into a situation where clinical need is not the deciding factor in whether or not people get treatment.
A few years ago, some friends and I came across a man in a state of collapse just inside the hospital gates. My friends administered such first aid as they could, whilst I ran to A&E for help. From the vantage point of her desk, the receptionist diagnosed the man as drunk and called security. Two security guards were sent to "deal" with the situation. This included threatening my friends and me with a beating if we didn't leave the premises. By this time, the man began to recover consciousness, and assured us he would be OK. I hope he was. In retrospect, we wished we'd dragged the man off the premises and called an ambulance; that way at least he would have been seen by medical professionals rather than a pair of jumped-up night club bouncers. With fewer nurses and doctors, but more managers, I suspect the situation has got worse over the intervening years. I know from personal experience that York Hospital and its dedicated staff give fantastic care in the huge majority of cases, but I fear that underfunding and over-managing are leading us into a situation where clinical need is not the deciding factor in whether or not people get treatment. Zetkin
  • Score: 58

12:25pm Fri 2 May 14

againstthecuts says...

Absolutely appalling I hope they have contacted the care quality commission to report this. There are far to many managers and not enough frontline staff. They should make some of these managers redundant and pay for more nurses.
Absolutely appalling I hope they have contacted the care quality commission to report this. There are far to many managers and not enough frontline staff. They should make some of these managers redundant and pay for more nurses. againstthecuts
  • Score: 66

1:47pm Fri 2 May 14

You're_all_idiots says...

X5019c wrote:
An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help.
roll
[quote][p][bold]X5019c[/bold] wrote: An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help.[/p][/quote]roll You're_all_idiots
  • Score: 2

3:12pm Fri 2 May 14

X5019c says...

You're_all_idiots wrote:
X5019c wrote:
An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help.
roll
Too right, I was furious when I typed the above and did not spell check.
[quote][p][bold]You're_all_idiots[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]X5019c[/bold] wrote: An absolute disgrace. Heads should role over this, Whoever dreamed up this policy needs naming and sacking as do those that refused to help.[/p][/quote]roll[/p][/quote]Too right, I was furious when I typed the above and did not spell check. X5019c
  • Score: 29

4:16pm Fri 2 May 14

Digeorge says...

It is really bad when you are on Hospital premises or rather a metre from it and have to call 999 for an ambulance, meanwhile they are probably stacked up at A&E.

Time the hospital polices were rewritten. Surely a metre from the hospital is within the 'grounds of the hospital'?
It is really bad when you are on Hospital premises or rather a metre from it and have to call 999 for an ambulance, meanwhile they are probably stacked up at A&E. Time the hospital polices were rewritten. Surely a metre from the hospital is within the 'grounds of the hospital'? Digeorge
  • Score: 28

5:20pm Fri 2 May 14

muckybutt says...

York **** Hospital - the hospital that sends OAP's home with DVT's

In other words "we dont give a s**te ! cos it's costing us money"
York **** Hospital - the hospital that sends OAP's home with DVT's In other words "we dont give a s**te ! cos it's costing us money" muckybutt
  • Score: 22

5:40pm Fri 2 May 14

franthom says...

Surely the best place for emergency care is at A&E and the quickest way to get to it (even from the main entrance) is via ambulance. What is the problem here?
Surely the best place for emergency care is at A&E and the quickest way to get to it (even from the main entrance) is via ambulance. What is the problem here? franthom
  • Score: -25

6:04pm Fri 2 May 14

againstthecuts says...

franthom wrote:
Surely the best place for emergency care is at A&E and the quickest way to get to it (even from the main entrance) is via ambulance. What is the problem here?
no the quickest way would be through main entrance then through x ray to a and e. It would take less time to wheel him through in a wheel chair.
[quote][p][bold]franthom[/bold] wrote: Surely the best place for emergency care is at A&E and the quickest way to get to it (even from the main entrance) is via ambulance. What is the problem here?[/p][/quote]no the quickest way would be through main entrance then through x ray to a and e. It would take less time to wheel him through in a wheel chair. againstthecuts
  • Score: 24

7:35pm Fri 2 May 14

StarB74 says...

Buffoonery!! Pure Buffoonery.
Buffoonery!! Pure Buffoonery. StarB74
  • Score: 11

9:18pm Fri 2 May 14

Digeorge says...

York **** Hospital - the hospital that sends OAP's home with DVT's

In other words "we dont give a s**te ! cos it's costing us money"

Actually I think the A&E need a lesson in what is a and is not a DVT like really was my 'hot water bottle' rash a hot watter bottle rash, no it frigging well wasn't!!! I only have a Factor II Prothrombin Gene mutuation and looking at the rash and asking me a question - what medication are you on and looking at the side effects of the soding drug I was on at the time would have given you a clue, even intestinal cystitis, oh Factor VIII VON Willebrands, should have been admitted.

Least the A&E have now got it but some of those consultants are frigging thick as well.

Thanks I have a decent one now, but do understand the frustrations about DVT's as at risk of one!!
York **** Hospital - the hospital that sends OAP's home with DVT's In other words "we dont give a s**te ! cos it's costing us money" Actually I think the A&E need a lesson in what is a and is not a DVT like really was my 'hot water bottle' rash a hot watter bottle rash, no it frigging well wasn't!!! I only have a Factor II Prothrombin Gene mutuation and looking at the rash and asking me a question - what medication are you on and looking at the side effects of the soding drug I was on at the time would have given you a clue, even intestinal cystitis, oh Factor VIII VON Willebrands, should have been admitted. Least the A&E have now got it but some of those consultants are frigging thick as well. Thanks I have a decent one now, but do understand the frustrations about DVT's as at risk of one!! Digeorge
  • Score: 6

11:17pm Fri 2 May 14

stopatred says...

What's happened to common sense these days ? Has it been outlawed ? Have to agree with a lot of post's here too many chiefs and not enough workers
What's happened to common sense these days ? Has it been outlawed ? Have to agree with a lot of post's here too many chiefs and not enough workers stopatred
  • Score: 19

12:02am Sat 3 May 14

daveyboy25 says...

General publics to blame, had we not had the claim blame brigade, too many people sueing for stupid reasons. Any job these days has to be done by the rule, so dont complain when joe publics to blame
General publics to blame, had we not had the claim blame brigade, too many people sueing for stupid reasons. Any job these days has to be done by the rule, so dont complain when joe publics to blame daveyboy25
  • Score: -1

3:53am Sat 3 May 14

Magicman! says...

beaucracy at its finest.

And just think, if Cameron wins the next election, the people concerned will have had to pay for the 'privelege' of being served in this way.
beaucracy at its finest. And just think, if Cameron wins the next election, the people concerned will have had to pay for the 'privelege' of being served in this way. Magicman!
  • Score: 10

10:10am Sat 3 May 14

will_chellam says...

I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK.

The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory?

Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment.

If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?
I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital? will_chellam
  • Score: 1

1:05pm Sat 3 May 14

againstthecuts says...

will_chellam wrote:
I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?
Surely the staff can respond to the emergencies within the hospital you would have thought common sense would prevail.
[quote][p][bold]will_chellam[/bold] wrote: I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?[/p][/quote]Surely the staff can respond to the emergencies within the hospital you would have thought common sense would prevail. againstthecuts
  • Score: 17

3:13pm Sat 3 May 14

petesmuk says...

I had a similar incident at the Luton and dunstable hospital on the day of the hurricane in 1987. My 81 year old next door neighbour collapsed and all the local phones were out (no mobiles then) so I drove to the hospital ambulance depot to get an ambulance for her. When I got there I was told to use the payphone in the lobby to disl 999 for an ambulance. Fortunately, the ambulance overtook me as I was on my way back home.
I had a similar incident at the Luton and dunstable hospital on the day of the hurricane in 1987. My 81 year old next door neighbour collapsed and all the local phones were out (no mobiles then) so I drove to the hospital ambulance depot to get an ambulance for her. When I got there I was told to use the payphone in the lobby to disl 999 for an ambulance. Fortunately, the ambulance overtook me as I was on my way back home. petesmuk
  • Score: 8

1:02pm Sun 4 May 14

CHEEZY PUFFS says...

Platform9 wrote:
"The Trust policy with regard to resuscitation off the main hospital site is that staff should dial 999 and ask for an ambulance stating the exact location and the condition of the patient." Too many Managers and not enough front-line staff making these policy rules.
Too many Managers...couldn't agree more.

In addition...the article highlights a clear contradiction in who does what and where.

1. Receptionist says a call to 999 is required.

2. Spokesperson for the Trust says a Crash Team would respond to this type of emergency anywhere in the Hospital or in the Hospital grounds.

The latter tends to contradict the former.

Who is telling the truth?
[quote][p][bold]Platform9[/bold] wrote: "The Trust policy with regard to resuscitation off the main hospital site is that staff should dial 999 and ask for an ambulance stating the exact location and the condition of the patient." Too many Managers and not enough front-line staff making these policy rules.[/p][/quote]Too many Managers...couldn't agree more. In addition...the article highlights a clear contradiction in who does what and where. 1. Receptionist says a call to 999 is required. 2. Spokesperson for the Trust says a Crash Team would respond to this type of emergency anywhere in the Hospital or in the Hospital grounds. The latter tends to contradict the former. Who is telling the truth? CHEEZY PUFFS
  • Score: 6

1:09pm Sun 4 May 14

CHEEZY PUFFS says...

will_chellam wrote:
I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?
I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital.

Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson for the Trust correct?

You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right!
[quote][p][bold]will_chellam[/bold] wrote: I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?[/p][/quote]I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital. Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson [i.e. Senior Manager] for the Trust correct? You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right! CHEEZY PUFFS
  • Score: 9

2:06pm Sun 4 May 14

will_chellam says...

CHEEZY PUFFS wrote:
will_chellam wrote:
I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?
I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital.

Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson for the Trust correct?

You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right!
The can both be right, the difference is that a crash team can be summoned when a cardio-repsiratory arrest is suspected (which wasn't the case here from what I can tell) or an ambulance if otherwise.

I'm not sure in York as I'm not a member of the arrest teams, but in other hospitals I have worked, the crash teams do not carry defibrillators, drugs etc since the equipment is all on a crash trolley on each ward. Paramedics will carry this gear as standard though.

The nearest crash trolley is probably a good distance from the main entrance, although I believe there are some AEDs dotted about in public areas of the hospital.
[quote][p][bold]CHEEZY PUFFS[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]will_chellam[/bold] wrote: I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?[/p][/quote]I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital. Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson [i.e. Senior Manager] for the Trust correct? You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right![/p][/quote]The can both be right, the difference is that a crash team can be summoned when a cardio-repsiratory arrest is suspected (which wasn't the case here from what I can tell) or an ambulance if otherwise. I'm not sure in York as I'm not a member of the arrest teams, but in other hospitals I have worked, the crash teams do not carry defibrillators, drugs etc since the equipment is all on a crash trolley on each ward. Paramedics will carry this gear as standard though. The nearest crash trolley is probably a good distance from the main entrance, although I believe there are some AEDs dotted about in public areas of the hospital. will_chellam
  • Score: 0

3:14pm Sun 4 May 14

CHEEZY PUFFS says...

will_chellam wrote:
CHEEZY PUFFS wrote:
will_chellam wrote: I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?
I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital. Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson for the Trust correct? You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right!
The can both be right, the difference is that a crash team can be summoned when a cardio-repsiratory arrest is suspected (which wasn't the case here from what I can tell) or an ambulance if otherwise. I'm not sure in York as I'm not a member of the arrest teams, but in other hospitals I have worked, the crash teams do not carry defibrillators, drugs etc since the equipment is all on a crash trolley on each ward. Paramedics will carry this gear as standard though. The nearest crash trolley is probably a good distance from the main entrance, although I believe there are some AEDs dotted about in public areas of the hospital.
The Receptionist says the crash team will not attend outside the Hospital

The Manager says the crash team will attend anywhere within the grounds.

They can't both be right.
[quote][p][bold]will_chellam[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CHEEZY PUFFS[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]will_chellam[/bold] wrote: I'm a doctor at currently working at York hospital, I assure you, this policy is no different from any one of the 10-15 other hospitals I've worked at across the UK. The reason is this - where do you draw the line? the edge of the pavement, the entrance to the car park? How about just over the road? Why not extent it to cover the chocolate factory? Hospital staff are trained in resuscitation techniques with the equipment and facilities available IN the hospital, paramedic teams are trained to deal with the same emergencies with their portable equipment. If the crash-team leaves the hospital, who looks after thepatients inside the hospital?[/p][/quote]I'm sure you are a very good doctor but you are conveniently ignoring the issue here...The problem is nobody seems to know what the policy is in York Hospital. Was the Receptionist correct or was the Spokesperson [i.e. Senior Manager] for the Trust correct? You have two very different versions of what should happen...they can't both be right![/p][/quote]The can both be right, the difference is that a crash team can be summoned when a cardio-repsiratory arrest is suspected (which wasn't the case here from what I can tell) or an ambulance if otherwise. I'm not sure in York as I'm not a member of the arrest teams, but in other hospitals I have worked, the crash teams do not carry defibrillators, drugs etc since the equipment is all on a crash trolley on each ward. Paramedics will carry this gear as standard though. The nearest crash trolley is probably a good distance from the main entrance, although I believe there are some AEDs dotted about in public areas of the hospital.[/p][/quote]The Receptionist says the crash team will not attend outside the Hospital [that's outside the actual building.] The Manager says the crash team will attend anywhere within the grounds. They can't both be right. CHEEZY PUFFS
  • Score: 6

4:37pm Sun 4 May 14

Digeorge says...

Who would you trust a manager stating what the policy was or a receptionist?

'anywhere within the grounds'.

So you go to hospital 'with the intention of' visiting for whatever reason whether it be a patient or whatever'.

The grounds includes the boundary and the car park controlled by the hospital? Doesn't it?
Who would you trust a manager stating what the policy was or a receptionist? 'anywhere within the grounds'. So you go to hospital 'with the intention of' visiting for whatever reason whether it be a patient or whatever'. The grounds includes the boundary and the car park controlled by the hospital? Doesn't it? Digeorge
  • Score: 5

5:06pm Sun 4 May 14

CHEEZY PUFFS says...

Digeorge wrote:
Who would you trust a manager stating what the policy was or a receptionist? 'anywhere within the grounds'. So you go to hospital 'with the intention of' visiting for whatever reason whether it be a patient or whatever'. The grounds includes the boundary and the car park controlled by the hospital? Doesn't it?
It's not a matter of trust, it's more a matter of life or death as far as this poor patient was concerned.
The Receptionists are briefed as to what to do in the case of an emergency. What they have been briefed is clearly at odds with the 'Management' take on the situation.
There is no getting away from the fact that this is clearly something that requires an internal investigation...and not something that is swept under the carpet.
[quote][p][bold]Digeorge[/bold] wrote: Who would you trust a manager stating what the policy was or a receptionist? 'anywhere within the grounds'. So you go to hospital 'with the intention of' visiting for whatever reason whether it be a patient or whatever'. The grounds includes the boundary and the car park controlled by the hospital? Doesn't it?[/p][/quote]It's not a matter of trust, it's more a matter of life or death as far as this poor patient was concerned. The Receptionists are briefed as to what to do in the case of an emergency. What they have been briefed is clearly at odds with the 'Management' take on the situation. There is no getting away from the fact that this is clearly something that requires an internal investigation...and not something that is swept under the carpet. CHEEZY PUFFS
  • Score: 6

5:38pm Sun 4 May 14

swh1963 says...

It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not.
It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not. swh1963
  • Score: -2

6:06pm Sun 4 May 14

CHEEZY PUFFS says...

swh1963 wrote:
It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not.
The trouble is 'poor management' often equates with 'too many managers.'
That's a truism in industry as much as it is in the Private Sector.

It's a neat equation.

I have spent a career in the NHS, I am a Manager and believe me but there are really too many managers.

and sadly it's often nepotism run riot!
[quote][p][bold]swh1963[/bold] wrote: It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not.[/p][/quote]The trouble is 'poor management' often equates with 'too many managers.' That's a truism in industry as much as it is in the Private Sector. It's a neat equation. I have spent a career in the NHS, I am a Manager and believe me [if you like, it's entirely up to you] but there are really too many managers. and sadly it's often nepotism run riot! CHEEZY PUFFS
  • Score: 6

7:04pm Sun 4 May 14

Digeorge says...

"There is no getting away from the fact that this is clearly something that requires an internal investigation...and not something that is swept under the carpet"

i agree with you entirely, given that I know what goes on in these 'internal investigations' nobody seems ever to learn from it congestive heart failure in my son's case comes to mind discharged home 3 days before he died despite knowing that he had complex heart problems and heart failure a real probability (it wasn't rocket science). Never did get a proper apology and they never learnt from it either or from my own case. It was an A&E bodge job.

As the case will be here!! Cos they like lying and they like covering up and never learning from it even when it is your former colleagues (whom you thought might actually be a little more sympathetic)

Alas I have had an apology many years later from the other hospital involved.
"There is no getting away from the fact that this is clearly something that requires an internal investigation...and not something that is swept under the carpet" i agree with you entirely, given that I know what goes on in these 'internal investigations' nobody seems ever to learn from it congestive heart failure in my son's case comes to mind discharged home 3 days before he died despite knowing that he had complex heart problems and heart failure a real probability (it wasn't rocket science). Never did get a proper apology and they never learnt from it either or from my own case. It was an A&E bodge job. As the case will be here!! Cos they like lying and they like covering up and never learning from it even when it is your former colleagues (whom you thought might actually be a little more sympathetic) Alas I have had an apology many years later from the other hospital involved. Digeorge
  • Score: 4

9:05am Mon 5 May 14

againstthecuts says...

it would be interesting to actually find out how managers actually work at York hospital and their salaries. maybe a freedom of information request,
it would be interesting to actually find out how managers actually work at York hospital and their salaries. maybe a freedom of information request, againstthecuts
  • Score: 6

9:12am Mon 5 May 14

againstthecuts says...

CHEEZY PUFFS wrote:
swh1963 wrote:
It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not.
The trouble is 'poor management' often equates with 'too many managers.'
That's a truism in industry as much as it is in the Private Sector.

It's a neat equation.

I have spent a career in the NHS, I am a Manager and believe me but there are really too many managers.

and sadly it's often nepotism run riot!
it would be interesting to actually find out how managers actually work at York hospital and their salaries. maybe a freedom of information request
[quote][p][bold]CHEEZY PUFFS[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]swh1963[/bold] wrote: It does look as though common sense was not applied here but to those who say 'too many managers' I say 'what's the right number?' and 'do you know how many there are now?' If there's a problem in Sainsburys no-one says 'too many managers' but as soon as it's a public service problem (and whenever the council slips up its the same) a load of people presume to have some amazing insight that there are 'too many managers' without a shred of evidence whether is or not. 'Poor management' is a defensible position to take on this occasion; 'too many managers' is not.[/p][/quote]The trouble is 'poor management' often equates with 'too many managers.' That's a truism in industry as much as it is in the Private Sector. It's a neat equation. I have spent a career in the NHS, I am a Manager and believe me [if you like, it's entirely up to you] but there are really too many managers. and sadly it's often nepotism run riot![/p][/quote]it would be interesting to actually find out how managers actually work at York hospital and their salaries. maybe a freedom of information request againstthecuts
  • Score: 1

2:59pm Mon 5 May 14

Strayer says...

Off the main site is elsewhere like the Clifton clinic, Archways for 999.
There is a defib inside the main doors in a box.
Teams do go outside the doors to deal with collapses in the immediate grounds.
Off the main site is elsewhere like the Clifton clinic, Archways for 999. There is a defib inside the main doors in a box. Teams do go outside the doors to deal with collapses in the immediate grounds. Strayer
  • Score: 3

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