York Feminist Network launches campaign against lap-dancing club's licence renewal

York Press: Feminists’ lap dancing anger Feminists’ lap dancing anger

A FEMINIST group has launched a campaign against an application by York’s last remaining lap-dancing club to renew its licence.

The York Feminist Network claims the club, Upstairs, situated above the Mansion nightclub in Micklegate, is too close to several organisations working with vulnerable groups, such as a domestic abuse service, women’s counselling service and an organisaiton supporting survivors of rape and sexual abuse.

The network also claims the club contributes to making Micklegate feel a no-go area for women.

She said: “Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.”

They also claim the club serves to “normalise the sexual objectification of women” and also damages York’s family-friendly reputation, and said more than 140 people had signed a petition of objection, adding: “Lap- dancing clubs have no place in this community.”

But Andrew Whitney, the club’s owner, claimed its closure would result in up to 40 dancers losing jobs which paid considerably more than the Living Wage, and it could threaten the whole nightclub’s viability, endangering another 30 full- and part-time staff.

He said he had invited the campaigners to visit the club and talk to the dancers, but had not had a reply.

He also claimed it was “absolutely not true” that the club made Micklegate feel a no-go area for women, and the lap dancing club itself had many female customers who came with their partners or with other women.

Mr Whitney added that the lap dancing was promoted in such a discreet way that many people in the nightclub below did not even realise it was there.

Council licensing manager Lesley Cooke confirmed Upstairs had applied for a renewal of its 12-month licence and was the only place in York to have made such an application.

She said objections could be made in writing and, if relevant ones were received, it could be determined by the Gambling, Licensing and Regulatory Committee.

She said: “The committee could then either grant the licence in the terms applied for, or grant it with modified or additional conditions or reject the application.”

Comments (41)

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10:00am Fri 6 Dec 13

TheTruthHurts says...

“Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.”


Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection.

Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into.
[quote] “Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.” [/quote] Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection. Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into. TheTruthHurts

10:22am Fri 6 Dec 13

chelk says...

140 people signed the petition sounds like a very low number I think what they are saying is a load of **** I for one have never been in a Lap Dancing club but it is a free country and if people choose top frequent the club it is their choice
140 people signed the petition sounds like a very low number I think what they are saying is a load of **** I for one have never been in a Lap Dancing club but it is a free country and if people choose top frequent the club it is their choice chelk

10:37am Fri 6 Dec 13

BL2 says...

The network also claims the club contributes to making Micklegate feel a no-go area for women.

Not for anyone I know it doesn't?
[quote]The network also claims the club contributes to making Micklegate feel a no-go area for women. [/quote] Not for anyone I know it doesn't? BL2

10:39am Fri 6 Dec 13

Funnyian says...

I have never heard so much rubbish, Mr Whitney runs a well behaved club although I have never been myself I understand that it is a tasteful venue and as to being too close to vulnerable groups they could say that for any location in York.

From the outside there is very little evidence that this is a lap dancing club, I could understand if there was risky posters flashing lights and scantily clad ladies on the street
No come on, let’s support Mr Whitney.
I have never heard so much rubbish, Mr Whitney runs a well behaved club although I have never been myself I understand that it is a tasteful venue and as to being too close to vulnerable groups they could say that for any location in York. From the outside there is very little evidence that this is a lap dancing club, I could understand if there was risky posters flashing lights and scantily clad ladies on the street No come on, let’s support Mr Whitney. Funnyian

10:47am Fri 6 Dec 13

LoveMyPuppy says...

As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that?

Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something!
As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that? Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something! LoveMyPuppy

10:50am Fri 6 Dec 13

Older Sometimes Wiser says...

I suspect that this is the first time that citizens of York knew that there was a lap dancing club in the city.I didn't until about a year ago when I asked a security man what he was protecting!
I understand that usually this a an expensive non-contact experience for those with more money than sense.
The feminist network have probably created welcome publicity for the club!
I suspect that this is the first time that citizens of York knew that there was a lap dancing club in the city.I didn't until about a year ago when I asked a security man what he was protecting! I understand that usually this a an expensive non-contact experience for those with more money than sense. The feminist network have probably created welcome publicity for the club! Older Sometimes Wiser

11:29am Fri 6 Dec 13

JHardacre says...

Live and let live you people with such little brain.
Live and let live you people with such little brain. JHardacre

11:53am Fri 6 Dec 13

taddylady says...

Whilst this is not somewhere I would want to visit, I really can not see what the objection is here, the article states this is the only club of it's type in York and it is above a nightclub so not on obvious view to families or more sensitive types.
The sexual objectification of women in the wide spread media is a far bigger problem than a well run venue giving women that choose to do so somewhere safe with laid down rules to earn a decent wage
Whilst this is not somewhere I would want to visit, I really can not see what the objection is here, the article states this is the only club of it's type in York and it is above a nightclub so not on obvious view to families or more sensitive types. The sexual objectification of women in the wide spread media is a far bigger problem than a well run venue giving women that choose to do so somewhere safe with laid down rules to earn a decent wage taddylady

12:37pm Fri 6 Dec 13

The Grim Reaper says...

I didn't know it was there. Thanks for the publicity - will definitely pay a visit.

The York Feminist Network can make their mouths say anything. "They also claim the club serves to “normalise the sexual objectification of women” and also damages York’s family-friendly reputation," What a load of clap-trap.

How about they go along and talk to these so called poor unfortunate girls who are forced into lap dancing because of ......I bet there's not one that isn't doing it because they want to.

I believe that your next meeting in Fawcett Road will make any red blooded man feel "threatened and uncomfortable". For gods sake, this is the 21st century, get a grip ladies....
I didn't know it was there. Thanks for the publicity - will definitely pay a visit. The York Feminist Network can make their mouths say anything. "They also claim the club serves to “normalise the sexual objectification of women” and also damages York’s family-friendly reputation," What a load of clap-trap. How about they go along and talk to these so called poor unfortunate girls who are forced into lap dancing because of ......I bet there's not one that isn't doing it because they want to. I believe that your next meeting in Fawcett Road will make any red blooded man feel "threatened and uncomfortable". For gods sake, this is the 21st century, get a grip ladies.... The Grim Reaper

2:04pm Fri 6 Dec 13

sensibleyorkresident says...

Bloody feminists.

I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same.

Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not.

Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look.

I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like.

It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York.

I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them.

Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable.
Bloody feminists. I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same. Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not. Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look. I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like. It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York. I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them. Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable. sensibleyorkresident

2:33pm Fri 6 Dec 13

The Grim Reaper says...

sensibleyorkresident wrote:
Bloody feminists. I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same. Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not. Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look. I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like. It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York. I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them. Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable.
Very well said.
[quote][p][bold]sensibleyorkresident[/bold] wrote: Bloody feminists. I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same. Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not. Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look. I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like. It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York. I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them. Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable.[/p][/quote]Very well said. The Grim Reaper

2:35pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Can't all be wrong says...

TheTruthHurts wrote:
“Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.”


Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection.

Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into.
Couldn't agree more. I never knew of the clubs exsistance, so can't be so much of a blight on the area. As for making women feel uncomfortable, have you seen the outfits that young women now wear on an evening out! I think ladies these days are not quite as sensitive as some feminist movements would have us believe.
[quote][p][bold]TheTruthHurts[/bold] wrote: [quote] “Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.” [/quote] Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection. Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into.[/p][/quote]Couldn't agree more. I never knew of the clubs exsistance, so can't be so much of a blight on the area. As for making women feel uncomfortable, have you seen the outfits that young women now wear on an evening out! I think ladies these days are not quite as sensitive as some feminist movements would have us believe. Can't all be wrong

2:55pm Fri 6 Dec 13

sheps lad says...

Can't all be wrong wrote:
TheTruthHurts wrote:
“Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.”


Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection.

Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into.
Couldn't agree more. I never knew of the clubs exsistance, so can't be so much of a blight on the area. As for making women feel uncomfortable, have you seen the outfits that young women now wear on an evening out! I think ladies these days are not quite as sensitive as some feminist movements would have us believe.
These ladies advance the causes for women in York pretty much the same as PP does for cyclists!
[quote][p][bold]Can't all be wrong[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TheTruthHurts[/bold] wrote: [quote] “Evidence shows that in certain locations, lap dancing and exotic dancing clubs make women feel threatened or uncomfortable.” [/quote] Really? What/where is the evidence? I can understand in some cities worldwide where strip clubs and the like are pretty obvious with flashing lights girls outside etc. but this one is pretty discreet and its always been a nightclub so it has always had a bit of leery-ness about it (at certain times). Ive never been to any strip club in York but i really cant see the objection. Off on a tangent but i feel that this is a minor problem compared to all the young girls who look up to the likes of rhianna and miley cyrus and think that the way they present themselves is acceptable. Thats the sort of thing the York feminist network should be getting their teeth into.[/p][/quote]Couldn't agree more. I never knew of the clubs exsistance, so can't be so much of a blight on the area. As for making women feel uncomfortable, have you seen the outfits that young women now wear on an evening out! I think ladies these days are not quite as sensitive as some feminist movements would have us believe.[/p][/quote]These ladies advance the causes for women in York pretty much the same as PP does for cyclists! sheps lad

3:14pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Loollah says...

I was under the impression that feminism was about female empowerment and their right to choice ........ isn't lap dancing a choice? Correct me if I'm wrong but the women who work in lap dancing clubs are doing it of their own free will and not because they are being forced!
The only reason there aren't as many lap dancing clubs full of male dancers is because most of us women just don't want to pay for a man to wave his tackle at us more than once, on a hen night, whilst we're drunk!

As for Micklegate being a no go area for women, I've never felt that way and I've frequented Micklegate for years! Personally I find the area around the Rougier Street bars and take aways to be a much less inviting area to be at night because of all the drunken chavs!
No one kicked up a fuss when Bohemia was operating as a lap dancing club (yes there was actually another lap dancing club on Micklegate!). As for Mansion, until the other day when I walked past and saw the sign above the door, I wasn't even sure they were still operating a lap dancing club. Proves how discreet they've been really!
I was under the impression that feminism was about female empowerment and their right to choice ........ isn't lap dancing a choice? Correct me if I'm wrong but the women who work in lap dancing clubs are doing it of their own free will and not because they are being forced! The only reason there aren't as many lap dancing clubs full of male dancers is because most of us women just don't want to pay for a man to wave his tackle at us more than once, on a hen night, whilst we're drunk! As for Micklegate being a no go area for women, I've never felt that way and I've frequented Micklegate for years! Personally I find the area around the Rougier Street bars and take aways to be a much less inviting area to be at night because of all the drunken chavs! No one kicked up a fuss when Bohemia was operating as a lap dancing club (yes there was actually another lap dancing club on Micklegate!). As for Mansion, until the other day when I walked past and saw the sign above the door, I wasn't even sure they were still operating a lap dancing club. Proves how discreet they've been really! Loollah

3:45pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Woody G Mellor says...

Feminists. Ugly women who can't get a (decent) bloke.
Feminists. Ugly women who can't get a (decent) bloke. Woody G Mellor

4:01pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Micklegate says...

Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling.

Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity!
Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling. Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity! Micklegate

5:00pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Devils_advocate says...

sensibleyorkresident wrote:
Bloody feminists.

I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same.

Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not.

Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look.

I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like.

It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York.

I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them.

Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable.
One of the best and most reasonably argued posts I've seen.
[quote][p][bold]sensibleyorkresident[/bold] wrote: Bloody feminists. I can't stand the stance these feminists take. I agree with all of the previous comments and I just cannot understand why they think that anyone should take any notice of what they think that women should and shouldn't be doing. I was angered that they were given press coverage of their objections to "lads mags" a few months ago and this is exactly the same. Lap dancing clubs-"normalise the sexual objectification of women"- as do all women who dress to impress when they go for a night out; as do wives and girlfriends when they dress to impress in the bedroom; miss universe in a skimpy bikini showered in the jungle; most pop singers; sports stars posing for playboy; women’s fitness magazines; romantic novels; perfume adverts; shampoo adverts; pole dancing fitness classes. There are so many sources of the sexual objectification of women that it is insensible to vilify just one of them and many of them are perpetuated by women. I could completely understand and I would support this group’s objection if this was to do with sex trafficking and forcing women on stage naked but it is not. Its pretty simple, women are sexy to men (and women) and it doesn't require any external influence to continue that paradigm. I agree that you could make a case for objection when you consider the recent news article of "sexy Serbian lineswoman" available widely on the web, as this objectifies a woman as a sexual object in an entirely non-sexual environment and does nothing to encourage female linesman into football. But this is a lap dancing club that isn't exploiting women, its exploiting men’s natural sexual desire towards attractive, young, physically fit women who will pay men and women some friendly attention regardless of how you look. I find the implication in this article that attending a lap dancing club could have any link with domestic abuse, rape or harassment towards women absolutely disgusting and just goes to show how bigoted towards men this feminist group is. In addition, it is possible that this safe environment (rules, bouncers, cctv, boundaries) for the satisfaction of sexual desires in men and women could serve as an outlet for those desires which could prevent the objectification and harassment of women in otherwise inappropriate places such as pubs, nightclubs, streets, kebab shops and the like. It's been a tough month for the men of York, branded by the street angels as predatory towards young women if you are over 40 and having a pint in town during fresher’s week and now if you pop your head into a lap dancing club apparently you’re on a slippery slope to domestic violence and rape, not to mention degradation of society as we know it. Not withstanding the fact that many of the users will be stag parties coming in from out of York. I really think that this feminist group needs to get to grips with real issues like some of those mentioned in their comments in the article. why don't they volunteer down at reflect or support women who are victims of domestic violence because whatever the reasons for it, the availability of a lap dancing club in York is unlikely to be one of them. Sorry for the rant, but they are unbelievable.[/p][/quote]One of the best and most reasonably argued posts I've seen. Devils_advocate

5:59pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Prob says...

Interesting point - the York feminist society in York asked other cities feminist societies for support on this matter - but it was flatly rejected by most. Worth having a look on Facebook for it.
Interesting point - the York feminist society in York asked other cities feminist societies for support on this matter - but it was flatly rejected by most. Worth having a look on Facebook for it. Prob

6:02pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Prob says...

https://www.facebook
.com/notes/rachel-he
wson-thornton/respon
se-to-edinburgh-univ
ersity-feminist-soci
ety-york-feminist-ne
twork-we-rejec/10151
700333121813
https://www.facebook .com/notes/rachel-he wson-thornton/respon se-to-edinburgh-univ ersity-feminist-soci ety-york-feminist-ne twork-we-rejec/10151 700333121813 Prob

8:06pm Fri 6 Dec 13

RoseD says...

LoveMyPuppy wrote:
As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that?

Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something!
Actually 'lap dancing' is contact. The dancer is writhing actually on the man's lap. Eww. Erotic dancing, up on a stage, afar, no contact, is something else entirely. This is just dry humping.
[quote][p][bold]LoveMyPuppy[/bold] wrote: As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that? Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something![/p][/quote]Actually 'lap dancing' is contact. The dancer is writhing actually on the man's lap. Eww. Erotic dancing, up on a stage, afar, no contact, is something else entirely. This is just dry humping. RoseD

8:13pm Fri 6 Dec 13

RoseD says...

Micklegate wrote:
Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling.

Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity!
'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'.

Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe.

You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch.

You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on.

And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO.
[quote][p][bold]Micklegate[/bold] wrote: Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling. Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity![/p][/quote]'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'. Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe. You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch. You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on. And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO. RoseD

8:57pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Micklegate says...

RoseD wrote:
Micklegate wrote:
Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling.

Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity!
'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'.

Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe.

You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch.

You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on.

And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO.
They are well paid, if they don't like the job they can do another. How complicated is that to understand?
[quote][p][bold]RoseD[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Micklegate[/bold] wrote: Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling. Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity![/p][/quote]'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'. Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe. You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch. You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on. And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO.[/p][/quote]They are well paid, if they don't like the job they can do another. How complicated is that to understand? Micklegate

2:09am Sat 7 Dec 13

Magicman! says...

Mr Whitney added that the lap dancing was promoted in such a discreet way that many people in the nightclub below did not even realise it was there

I didn't know it was there, until it was shown on Ross Noble's TV show where he made up an 'absolute tatt roadshow'.

---

Once again the political correctness brigade has reared its head, this time in the form of feminism.
Most clubs of this type seem to operate whereby the women working there gyrate and men throw lots of their hard-earned money at the women to carry on. Not only does this sound like a pretty easy job with good pay, it also raises the question as to exactly WHO might possibly be getting 'exploited' - because I don't think it's the girls!
The girls are in a safe environment, and I am guessing there is a rule of "look but don't touch" for the clientele, so quite how the Feminists have made the link between this club and women outside getting harassed or raped is beyond me - it's more likely that women outside in the streets are trying to compete with men in drinking games in other establishments and ending up completely out of control at which point they get picked out by some pervert.

The club is not forcing itself onto the general public, it is tastefully tucked away behind a presentable doorway without any flashy posters or images... people can choose to go inside, or just walk past; unlike pop music videos by Rihanna or Miley 'tongue' Cyrus (featuring the foam finger) - 10 year old girls can switch on the TV to a music video channel, and see such images as early as breakfast time - that is going to do far more damage than the controlled environment of a strip club.
If I didn't know any better, I'd go so far as to say that the Feminist Movement has started this issue up because the girls working in the club are self-empowered and confident because they know they have the assets and how to work them, whereas the Feminists are likely a bunch of unconfident ugly mingers who can't get laid!!!
[quote]Mr Whitney added that the lap dancing was promoted in such a discreet way that many people in the nightclub below did not even realise it was there[/quote] I didn't know it was there, until it was shown on Ross Noble's TV show where he made up an 'absolute tatt roadshow'. --- Once again the political correctness brigade has reared its head, this time in the form of feminism. Most clubs of this type seem to operate whereby the women working there gyrate and men throw lots of their hard-earned money at the women to carry on. Not only does this sound like a pretty easy job with good pay, it also raises the question as to exactly WHO might possibly be getting 'exploited' - because I don't think it's the girls! The girls are in a safe environment, and I am guessing there is a rule of "look but don't touch" for the clientele, so quite how the Feminists have made the link between this club and women outside getting harassed or raped is beyond me - it's more likely that women outside in the streets are trying to compete with men in drinking games in other establishments and ending up completely out of control at which point they get picked out by some pervert. The club is not forcing itself onto the general public, it is tastefully tucked away behind a presentable doorway without any flashy posters or images... people can choose to go inside, or just walk past; unlike pop music videos by Rihanna or Miley 'tongue' Cyrus (featuring the foam finger) - 10 year old girls can switch on the TV to a music video channel, and see such images as early as breakfast time - that is going to do far more damage than the controlled environment of a strip club. If I didn't know any better, I'd go so far as to say that the Feminist Movement has started this issue up because the girls working in the club are self-empowered and confident because they know they have the assets and how to work them, whereas the Feminists are likely a bunch of unconfident ugly mingers who can't get laid!!! Magicman!

1:21pm Sat 7 Dec 13

eeoodares says...

I was at a conference in Birmingham with my old company. We were taken to a lap dancing bar, those girls were taking a great deal of cash off foolish men most of whom could ill afford the entrance fee and the expensive drinks let alone to pay for a dance, but they did anyway.

If you want to see strong young women completely in control and earning more money part time than they could working full time in an office, then visit one of these clubs.
I was at a conference in Birmingham with my old company. We were taken to a lap dancing bar, those girls were taking a great deal of cash off foolish men most of whom could ill afford the entrance fee and the expensive drinks let alone to pay for a dance, but they did anyway. If you want to see strong young women completely in control and earning more money part time than they could working full time in an office, then visit one of these clubs. eeoodares

2:41pm Sat 7 Dec 13

LoveMyPuppy says...

RoseD wrote:
LoveMyPuppy wrote:
As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that?

Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something!
Actually 'lap dancing' is contact. The dancer is writhing actually on the man's lap. Eww. Erotic dancing, up on a stage, afar, no contact, is something else entirely. This is just dry humping.
I fail to see the relevance of your comment to mine?
[quote][p][bold]RoseD[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LoveMyPuppy[/bold] wrote: As a female myself, I find the art of lap dancing empowering for women! No one is forcing you in to it, it is a decent wage and if I had the figure and the talent I would do it myself! How women dancing seductively can make other women feel unsafe is beyond me! Maybe they just feel insecure because the women inside the club are confident about themselves and the feminists don't like that? Feminists these days have no idea what the word actually means! They think that men should not tell women what to do, so instead they tell women what to do! Either way, women are being told what to do by a group of people so they are just as bad as men! Just let the girls get on with it and go and make your own soap or something![/p][/quote]Actually 'lap dancing' is contact. The dancer is writhing actually on the man's lap. Eww. Erotic dancing, up on a stage, afar, no contact, is something else entirely. This is just dry humping.[/p][/quote]I fail to see the relevance of your comment to mine? LoveMyPuppy

3:03pm Sat 7 Dec 13

wallman says...

have these so called feminists ever walked down Micklegate at night when hen parties are about, its us men that's in danger from them with the lists of things the bride to be has to do or get
have these so called feminists ever walked down Micklegate at night when hen parties are about, its us men that's in danger from them with the lists of things the bride to be has to do or get wallman

10:37pm Sat 7 Dec 13

BioLogic says...

From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold:

To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement.

We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that.

As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women.

The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities.

We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

With feminist regards,

Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network

Share
From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold: To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement. We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that. As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women. The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities. We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.” With feminist regards, Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network Share BioLogic

1:59am Sun 8 Dec 13

inthesticks says...

Laughing at all the men commenting - `I`ve never been to a lap dancing club/ never knew about the club / wouldn`t want to go there myself.`
Note to feminist group. The best thing women can do is to get on with life, be a strong person, stand up for yourself and be a good role model to your children and all those you meet in life. Feminist groups are just an embarrassment to normal women and do more harm than good.
Laughing at all the men commenting - `I`ve never been to a lap dancing club/ never knew about the club / wouldn`t want to go there myself.` Note to feminist group. The best thing women can do is to get on with life, be a strong person, stand up for yourself and be a good role model to your children and all those you meet in life. Feminist groups are just an embarrassment to normal women and do more harm than good. inthesticks

12:44pm Sun 8 Dec 13

CaroleBaines says...

Micklegate wrote:
Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling.

Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity!
I agree with Micklegate! I need to go and cleanse myself, but yes...spot on!
[quote][p][bold]Micklegate[/bold] wrote: Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling. Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity![/p][/quote]I agree with Micklegate! I need to go and cleanse myself, but yes...spot on! CaroleBaines

3:34pm Sun 8 Dec 13

eeoodares says...

eeoodares wrote:
I was at a conference in Birmingham with my old company. We were taken to a lap dancing bar, those girls were taking a great deal of cash off foolish men most of whom could ill afford the entrance fee and the expensive drinks let alone to pay for a dance, but they did anyway.

If you want to see strong young women completely in control and earning more money part time than they could working full time in an office, then visit one of these clubs.
At that conference, the celebrity speaker was Dame Ellen Macarthur and the after dinner comedian was Jo Brand. All strong women using their strength to earn a living and the respect of the men around them. Hard to imagine any men paying to spend any time in the company of York Feminist Network, they must feel empowered.
[quote][p][bold]eeoodares[/bold] wrote: I was at a conference in Birmingham with my old company. We were taken to a lap dancing bar, those girls were taking a great deal of cash off foolish men most of whom could ill afford the entrance fee and the expensive drinks let alone to pay for a dance, but they did anyway. If you want to see strong young women completely in control and earning more money part time than they could working full time in an office, then visit one of these clubs.[/p][/quote]At that conference, the celebrity speaker was Dame Ellen Macarthur and the after dinner comedian was Jo Brand. All strong women using their strength to earn a living and the respect of the men around them. Hard to imagine any men paying to spend any time in the company of York Feminist Network, they must feel empowered. eeoodares

6:27pm Sun 8 Dec 13

JHardacre says...

BioLogic wrote:
From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold:

To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement.

We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that.

As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women.

The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities.

We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

With feminist regards,

Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network

Share
You really do need to get a life.
[quote][p][bold]BioLogic[/bold] wrote: From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold: To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement. We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that. As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women. The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities. We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.” With feminist regards, Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network Share[/p][/quote]You really do need to get a life. JHardacre

8:33pm Sun 8 Dec 13

BobSoft says...

JHardacre wrote:
BioLogic wrote:
From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold:

To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement.

We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that.

As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women.

The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities.

We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

With feminist regards,

Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network

Share
You really do need to get a life.
With feminist regards, Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network Share


All three members.
[quote][p][bold]JHardacre[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BioLogic[/bold] wrote: From the York feminist network Facebook page. Comedy Gold: To begin with, we reject being called ‘whorephobic’. We are disappointed by the language the Edinburgh University Feminist Society uses in the letter objecting to our campaign against a lap dancing club in York. The choice of the term ‘whorephobia’ targeted at us is, at best, provocative but fails to grasp the key point of our petition and is therefore misplaced. We urge for any future exchanges between our feminist groups to be respectful and constructive debates that encourage us to develop as a diverse feminist movement. We see lap dancing clubs as part of the sex industry. We do not believe that lap dancing clubs change the masculine power structure that we regard as oppressive; rather, we believe they reinforce it. We do not see lap dancing clubs as a space for female empowerment, contrary to the recent debates regarding pole dancing. Some women certainly feel empowered, sexually, economically, or emotionally, through working in lap dancing clubs. We are not trying to devalue the positive impact this job might have on these particular individuals, nor do we wish to make life difficult for women. The women working there are not our target and we reject any negative statements made towards women working in lap dancing clubs. But we, in contrast to the opinions against our petition, focus on the broader gender power imbalances in our campaign, and the societal impact of lap dancing clubs encouraging the widespread idea that women’s bodies are available for male consumption. We are opposed to female sexuality being continuously defined by men and their desires, and strongly reject the idea that lap dancing clubs challenge that. As a feminist group our primary objective is a struggle against the continuing oppression of women within our patriarchal system; a system where women face systematic violence, are treated as sexual objects for the male gaze, and are valued according to a dehumanised vision of womanhood. All of the abovementioned are, in our minds, reinforced within the sex industry. The sex industry sends a message to wider society that women exist to please men, their body being their tool. We oppose such treatment of women. The majority of the critics talk of individual choices made by women who work in lap dancing clubs; they work there because they are poor, they explore their sexuality there, they simply like it. This is an individualised viewpoint, perhaps fitting well with a defence of a venue where consumerism of women’s bodies is taking place. And while we do not wish to cause any harm or injustice to individual women, this is about an objection towards the sex industry – not individual women. We do not look down on the women, but we do look down on the men who buy women’s bodies, who think they can, who think it is their right to do so. Equally, we could have hesitated in other matters such as the ‘Lose The Lads Mags’ campaign (because a woman working as a glamour model likes it) or anti-**** attitudes (because many **** stars enjoy experimenting with their sexuality) or prostitution (most of the women choose this). No. According to a study with women in prostitution, the majority of them wanted to exit, and more then 60% of the women reported violence from buyers (Eaves 2012). We do not believe lap dancing clubs are a feminist haven in contrast to this. You need only consider the working conditions so often in evidence – the fees paid by dancers, fines for absence or lateness and confusion around ‘club rules’. We do not accept violence against women and the industry where women's bodies are treated as commodities. We reject a position, often made by those benefiting from the objectification of women, that every choice a woman makes is a choice of empowerment; such rhetoric of choice only legitimises the oppression. Before we can start speaking of individual free choice, we need to focus on dismantling patriarchy. That is our feminism. Audre Lorde put it nicely: “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.” With feminist regards, Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network Share[/p][/quote]You really do need to get a life.[/p][/quote][quote][p]With feminist regards, Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network Share[/p][/quote] All three members. BobSoft

8:36pm Sun 8 Dec 13

BobSoft says...

"Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network"

All three members.
"Kasia, Rachel and Louise from York Feminist Network" All three members. BobSoft

8:47pm Sun 8 Dec 13

sensibleyorkresident says...

I've found the York Feminists Networks’ next target:-

Men, women and children paying* to see women in revealing outfits, dancing provocatively and wrapping their stocking clad legs around men, while other pervy old men judge them. This practice clearly perpetuates the "oppressive masculine power structure". The men even throw the women around the room, like a drunken York man abusing his wife after a night out during freshers week.

I think its disgusting and it should be banned-

http://www.kismetgir
ls.com/strictly_come
_dancing/strictly_co
me_dancing_pictures/
Strictly_sexy_outfit
s_Paul_Daniels_Ola_J
ordan_Come_Dancing.j
pg

http://i.telegraph.c
o.uk/multimedia/arch
ive/00686/strictly-j
udges_686499c.jpg

* license fees and tickets to tours
I've found the York Feminists Networks’ next target:- Men, women and children paying* to see women in revealing outfits, dancing provocatively and wrapping their stocking clad legs around men, while other pervy old men judge them. This practice clearly perpetuates the "oppressive masculine power structure". The men even throw the women around the room, like a drunken York man abusing his wife after a night out during freshers week. I think its disgusting and it should be banned- http://www.kismetgir ls.com/strictly_come _dancing/strictly_co me_dancing_pictures/ Strictly_sexy_outfit s_Paul_Daniels_Ola_J ordan_Come_Dancing.j pg http://i.telegraph.c o.uk/multimedia/arch ive/00686/strictly-j udges_686499c.jpg * license fees and tickets to tours sensibleyorkresident

8:50pm Sun 8 Dec 13

sensibleyorkresident says...

http://www.kismetgir
ls.com/strictly_come
_dancing/strictly_co
me_dancing_pictures/
Strictly_sexy_outfit
s_Paul_Daniels_Ola_J
ordan_Come_Dancing.j
pg

sorry, i don't know why it does this. just google paul daniels and ola jordan

:-)
http://www.kismetgir ls.com/strictly_come _dancing/strictly_co me_dancing_pictures/ Strictly_sexy_outfit s_Paul_Daniels_Ola_J ordan_Come_Dancing.j pg sorry, i don't know why it does this. just google paul daniels and ola jordan :-) sensibleyorkresident

8:54pm Sun 8 Dec 13

the_wasp says...

Feminists really do make me laugh. Too serious and their views seem outdated (which ironic in itself)! Bonkers people!

Ps - you can spot a feminist at 50 paces. I don't mean to stereotype people, but I'm sure people know what I mean!
Feminists really do make me laugh. Too serious and their views seem outdated (which ironic in itself)! Bonkers people! Ps - you can spot a feminist at 50 paces. I don't mean to stereotype people, but I'm sure people know what I mean! the_wasp

8:55pm Sun 8 Dec 13

the_wasp says...

Get them in the club doing some pole dancing ha ha
Get them in the club doing some pole dancing ha ha the_wasp

8:56pm Sun 8 Dec 13

the_wasp says...

With non feminist regards

The In This Century Normal People
With non feminist regards The In This Century Normal People the_wasp

8:01pm Mon 9 Dec 13

long distance depressive says...

Didn't even know there was a club in York...nor have I noticed any dirty mac types..maybe couldn't see there for all the scantily clad Hen Parties etc! Live and let live has to be the motto , unless the dancers are being coerced or dragged screaming into the club there surely can't be much of an issue. C'mon 'ladies' don't try and throw your sisters out of work, take a chill pill and stop using out- moded language, it's not the 1970's!
Didn't even know there was a club in York...nor have I noticed any dirty mac types..maybe couldn't see there for all the scantily clad Hen Parties etc! Live and let live has to be the motto , unless the dancers are being coerced or dragged screaming into the club there surely can't be much of an issue. C'mon 'ladies' don't try and throw your sisters out of work, take a chill pill and stop using out- moded language, it's not the 1970's! long distance depressive

11:52am Thu 12 Dec 13

garethjv says...

RoseD wrote:
Micklegate wrote:
Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling.

Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity!
'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'.

Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe.

You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch.

You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on.

And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO.
There are still many injustices to women in the UK, this isn't one of them. You'd do your cause much more benefit if you stuck to the real issues like wage discrimination and underhand interviewing prejudice against young women rather than imagined problems like this. BTW I hope you lot always turn up to vote at elections, after all women died in the past to make sure you have that 'privilege' today.
[quote][p][bold]RoseD[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Micklegate[/bold] wrote: Men paying vast money to women and the women in total control of what can happen - I really fail to see how the women are being controlled! The fact Mr Whitney has said anyone can meet the dancers but had no response is very telling. Still presumably the club couldn't have wished for any better free publicity![/p][/quote]'Complete control' would be earning an equal wage for jobs of equal effort, and having equal opportunities to train for and get these jobs. But, taken in this context, 'complete' control as a stripper would be NOT to have to sit on some guy's hard on. Rubbing suggestively against it. Standing or sauntering like meat on a stage until some perv waves enough cash to attract a lap 'dance'. Old-school erotic dancing requires a lot more effort, you cant just hop onto some bulging trousers and writhe. You want to 'empower' the dancers? Let them DANCE without any contact whatsoever. None. Look but DO not expect them to 'choose' to sit on your crotch. You want to REALLY improve the city? Make sure younger women have access to jobs that pay enough to live on. And btw the club mgr is not being truthful, he didn't ask anyone. If he did, I'd be HAPPY TO GO.[/p][/quote]There are still many injustices to women in the UK, this isn't one of them. You'd do your cause much more benefit if you stuck to the real issues like wage discrimination and underhand interviewing prejudice against young women rather than imagined problems like this. BTW I hope you lot always turn up to vote at elections, after all women died in the past to make sure you have that 'privilege' today. garethjv

12:45am Fri 13 Dec 13

browbeaten says...

What is this woman on ? Micklegate on a night has been like the wild west for years and years. Only the fool hardy / suicidal would choose to go their on a night time. Get off your femmenist high horse and have a march to reclaim the night or something.
What is this woman on ? Micklegate on a night has been like the wild west for years and years. Only the fool hardy / suicidal would choose to go their on a night time. Get off your femmenist high horse and have a march to reclaim the night or something. browbeaten

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