Pulling out all the stops on buses

York Press: One of the new electric buses at the new Askham Bar Park&Ride site One of the new electric buses at the new Askham Bar Park&Ride site

YOUR correspondence about the absence of stopping points on the new Park&Ride route highlights the poor publicity about exactly where these services will pick up or set down passengers.

The itravelyork information gives frequency and city centre stops, but nothing about which services do pick up en route. A P Cox (Letters, June 26) highlights how Park&Ride services exist alongside a poor bus service in some areas, for those not able to use park and ride.

While City of York Council contracts the Park&Ride services, it has far less influence on the remainder of the routes.

Residents in my ward of Fishergate benefit from having frequent daytime Arriva buses from Selby as well as a stopping Park&Ride service from designer outlet.

If the council controlled local bus services, we could insist that Arriva served the rail station to provide integration with rail services.

As things are, I will continue to defend the current stopping arrangement as the No 7 is the only frequent bus to and from the station for many residents living along Fulford Rd.

Cllr Andy D’Agorne, Green Party, Fishergate ward, Broadway West, York.

Comments (7)

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1:48am Sun 29 Jun 14

Magicman! says...

One or two points to bring up...

Firstly, has nobody actually thought of *getting a timetable* for the 59 service, by dropping into the information centre on Museum Street/Blake Street corner (or at the rail station)? There is a map in there with the stopping points clearly marked.

As for Arriva serving the rail station... currently, as I recall, the roster for the 415 uses 4 vehicles. The timetable currently does not have sufficient slack to allow the serice to extend to the rail station; or should I say it can't be extended until something is done about the amount of noncompulsory traffic in the city centre. For a while, buses were benefiting from less waiting time along Coppergate, as it was only authorised vehicles using the road - but then some guy drove along there, got a fine, and then drove along there again on purpose to get another fine and then brought up a legal case to get rid of the enforcement... and anybody who knows human behaviour will tell you that people will do something wrong if they know there is no way they'll get recompense for it. Long and short, the enforcement cameras are now gone, and every mand and his dog drive down Coppergate now, leading to longer waiting times for buses (as they don't often get out of the road at either end without waiting for a few minutes now). Plus there is now more traffic going over Ouse Bridge... and quite frankly ever since Lendal bridge was reopened, the sheer volume of traffic past the rail station is unbelieveable. What's more, it's not as if this is traffic that is no longer using the 'other side' of the Inner Ring Road, no, as Skeldergate Bridge and Nunnery lane are still just as chokkablock as they were whilst Lendal Bridge was closed - instead, all the traffc going past the station is traffic that had previously been on Water End or the A1237...

... Even though the 415 is only every 20 minutes, extending it to the rail station would require at least one extra vehicle plus driver onto the roster (and that's assuming the bus heading to Selby goes from Piccadilly to the station, then along Nunnery lane and Skeldergate Bridge to leave York... if it were required to serve the rail station and then turn around to go back into Piccadilly, you'd need 2 extra buses) - and then you'd have an economical case that would have to be made to show the extra bus(es) could be funded.
One or two points to bring up... Firstly, has nobody actually thought of *getting a timetable* for the 59 service, by dropping into the information centre on Museum Street/Blake Street corner (or at the rail station)? There is a map in there with the stopping points clearly marked. As for Arriva serving the rail station... currently, as I recall, the roster for the 415 uses 4 vehicles. The timetable currently does not have sufficient slack to allow the serice to extend to the rail station; or should I say it can't be extended until something is done about the amount of noncompulsory traffic in the city centre. For a while, buses were benefiting from less waiting time along Coppergate, as it was only authorised vehicles using the road - but then some guy drove along there, got a fine, and then drove along there again on purpose to get another fine and then brought up a legal case to get rid of the enforcement... and anybody who knows human behaviour will tell you that people will do something wrong if they know there is no way they'll get recompense for it. Long and short, the enforcement cameras are now gone, and every mand and his dog drive down Coppergate now, leading to longer waiting times for buses (as they don't often get out of the road at either end without waiting for a few minutes now). Plus there is now more traffic going over Ouse Bridge... and quite frankly ever since Lendal bridge was reopened, the sheer volume of traffic past the rail station is unbelieveable. What's more, it's not as if this is traffic that is no longer using the 'other side' of the Inner Ring Road, no, as Skeldergate Bridge and Nunnery lane are still just as chokkablock as they were whilst Lendal Bridge was closed - instead, all the traffc going past the station is traffic that had previously been on Water End or the A1237... ... Even though the 415 is only every 20 minutes, extending it to the rail station would require at least one extra vehicle plus driver onto the roster (and that's assuming the bus heading to Selby goes from Piccadilly to the station, then along Nunnery lane and Skeldergate Bridge to leave York... if it were required to serve the rail station and then turn around to go back into Piccadilly, you'd need 2 extra buses) - and then you'd have an economical case that would have to be made to show the extra bus(es) could be funded. Magicman!
  • Score: 4

5:18pm Sun 29 Jun 14

greenmonkey says...

Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.
Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic. greenmonkey
  • Score: -1

10:41pm Sun 29 Jun 14

PKH says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.
One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site.
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.[/p][/quote]One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site. PKH
  • Score: -1

8:18am Mon 30 Jun 14

Art Baker says...

PKH wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.
One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site.
Good to see you have identified a solution.

As you point out, a key issue is that it is cheaper to park in the City for a couple of hours. Increase the parking charges or introduce a congestion charge and the balance shift to the bus becoming the sensible option.

I congratulate you on your foresight.
[quote][p][bold]PKH[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.[/p][/quote]One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site.[/p][/quote]Good to see you have identified a solution. As you point out, a key issue is that it is cheaper to park in the City for a couple of hours. Increase the parking charges or introduce a congestion charge and the balance shift to the bus becoming the sensible option. I congratulate you on your foresight. Art Baker
  • Score: 2

2:25pm Mon 30 Jun 14

greenmonkey says...

"The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car" -exactly! Bus fares apart from park and ride are determined by the private operators and have gone up more steeply than city centre parking charges since 2006. Operators will blame the congestion for added fuel and staff costs. Cheaper bus fares brought in at the same time as the Lendal Bridge trial had a sound logic. Perhaps now we need to trial traffic free Sundays, with free wheelchair accessible city centre bus service as a model to show what can be achieved? It works in some high profile cities around the world.
"The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car" -exactly! Bus fares apart from park and ride are determined by the private operators and have gone up more steeply than city centre parking charges since 2006. Operators will blame the congestion for added fuel and staff costs. Cheaper bus fares brought in at the same time as the Lendal Bridge trial had a sound logic. Perhaps now we need to trial traffic free Sundays, with free wheelchair accessible city centre bus service as a model to show what can be achieved? It works in some high profile cities around the world. greenmonkey
  • Score: -3

6:34pm Mon 30 Jun 14

PKH says...

Art Baker wrote:
PKH wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.
One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site.
Good to see you have identified a solution.

As you point out, a key issue is that it is cheaper to park in the City for a couple of hours. Increase the parking charges or introduce a congestion charge and the balance shift to the bus becoming the sensible option.

I congratulate you on your foresight.
Bus prices need to come down not parking prices increased otherwise the city will be full of empty shops, going into economic decline.
[quote][p][bold]Art Baker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]PKH[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.[/p][/quote]One of the best ways of getting more private motor vehicles out of the city would be to have quicker viable routes, closing the inner ring road (Lendal Bridge) when the corresponding section of outer ring road could be likened to 'a car park' at times is not the answer'. The bus service is expensive and unreliable, if my wife and I wish to come into the city for a couple of hours it is far cheaper to use the car, the bus service is so bad at times that my neighbour who being a pensioner get free travel has given up waiting for a bus come home and got the car. Before you suggest park and ride, I would have to drive just about as far as the city centre to the nearest site.[/p][/quote]Good to see you have identified a solution. As you point out, a key issue is that it is cheaper to park in the City for a couple of hours. Increase the parking charges or introduce a congestion charge and the balance shift to the bus becoming the sensible option. I congratulate you on your foresight.[/p][/quote]Bus prices need to come down not parking prices increased otherwise the city will be full of empty shops, going into economic decline. PKH
  • Score: 5

4:17am Wed 2 Jul 14

Magicman! says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.
Indeed... the city centre should really only be for traffic that has a physical *need* to be there - this mainy being works vehicles, deliveries, and those with disabled persons onboard. Using the city centre as a shortcut should not be an option... but rather than using the 'stick first' approach, extra capacity has to be found elsewhere first; such as getting the A1237 fully dualled with flyovers at the junctions, improving junction capacity at Walmgate Bar and Piccadilly and Tower Street, align Water End ane Water Lane to be opposite each other so they both share the green light without the current situation of the A19 being on a red light for way too long, and consider adding a central 'smart lane' to Fulford Road between CDemetary Road and the A64 junction which would be allocated as a 2nd traffic lane for whichever flow is the heaviest (ie two inbound lanes of traffic in the Am peak, lane 2 being for traffic about to head along Cemetary Road and the inner ring road in that direction).

There should also be a Free City Bus using an electric vehicle... possibly even going along Blake Street and Parliament Street so that disabled passengers can get as close to the shops as possible (and with a professional driver at the wheel of the bus, it wouldn't be half as risky for pedestrians as a lot of the drivers that do go through there during pedestrian hours). Currently during Sundays, Transdev has a fully electric minibus sitting around idle in the depot - perhaps a trial could be started just for Sundays using that bus (even though the colours of the bus do make it look like an explosion in a sweet factory!)
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Thanks Magicman for explaining the impact congestion has on viability of bus services in general and integrated transport options in particular. Mistakes were made in implementing the Lendal Bridge trial but the concept itself made sense in terms of promoting public transport over private motor traffic. We do need to look dispassionately at how best to achieve access for essential services and deliveries but removing private through traffic from central York. I don't know if the proposed Congestion commission will be able to rise above party political point scoring, but somehow its a job that needs doing if York is to have any chance of being a thriving sustainable and historic city rather than clogged with stationary traffic.[/p][/quote]Indeed... the city centre should really only be for traffic that has a physical *need* to be there - this mainy being works vehicles, deliveries, and those with disabled persons onboard. Using the city centre as a shortcut should not be an option... but rather than using the 'stick first' approach, extra capacity has to be found elsewhere first; such as getting the A1237 fully dualled with flyovers at the junctions, improving junction capacity at Walmgate Bar and Piccadilly and Tower Street, align Water End ane Water Lane to be opposite each other so they both share the green light without the current situation of the A19 being on a red light for way too long, and consider adding a central 'smart lane' to Fulford Road between CDemetary Road and the A64 junction which would be allocated as a 2nd traffic lane for whichever flow is the heaviest (ie two inbound lanes of traffic in the Am peak, lane 2 being for traffic about to head along Cemetary Road and the inner ring road in that direction). There should also be a Free City Bus using an electric vehicle... possibly even going along Blake Street and Parliament Street so that disabled passengers can get as close to the shops as possible (and with a professional driver at the wheel of the bus, it wouldn't be half as risky for pedestrians as a lot of the drivers that do go through there during pedestrian hours). Currently during Sundays, Transdev has a fully electric minibus sitting around idle in the depot - perhaps a trial could be started just for Sundays using that bus (even though the colours of the bus do make it look like an explosion in a sweet factory!) Magicman!
  • Score: 0
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