Burka decision

Burka decision

Burka decision

First published in Letters by

FOR those struggling to ban women from wearing the burka in their countries, Mustafa Kamal – or “Attaturk”, the founder of modern Turkey – resolved the problem in a wise way.

He issued the following decree: “With immediate effect all Turkish women are privileged to wear whatever they choose. However, all prostitutes must wear a burka.”

The next day no woman in Turkey was seen in a burka.

C Henson, Ullswater, York.

Comments (23)

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11:55am Thu 26 Jun 14

bravo whisky says...

That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places.
That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places. bravo whisky
  • Score: 17

12:12pm Thu 26 Jun 14

CHISSY1 says...

bravo whisky wrote:
That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places.
I agree 100%.I know a person who has a shop with a Post Office.If someone comes in wearing a crash helmet,they have to remove it,or he can call the police and refuse to serve them.If someone walks in wearing a burka,looking like a black post box and he refuses to serve them,he is classed as racist and can be prosecuted.So,yes ban them,our country,our rules.
[quote][p][bold]bravo whisky[/bold] wrote: That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places.[/p][/quote]I agree 100%.I know a person who has a shop with a Post Office.If someone comes in wearing a crash helmet,they have to remove it,or he can call the police and refuse to serve them.If someone walks in wearing a burka,looking like a black post box and he refuses to serve them,he is classed as racist and can be prosecuted.So,yes ban them,our country,our rules. CHISSY1
  • Score: 18

12:47pm Thu 26 Jun 14

/kev/null says...

"So,yes ban them,our country,our rules."

This statement makes the erroneous assumption that we all agree with you. I'm quite happy to let people wear what they want to wear because it's just not a big deal. The post office will probably be closed sooner or later anyway so the person you know will have nothing to worry about.
"So,yes ban them,our country,our rules." This statement makes the erroneous assumption that we all agree with you. I'm quite happy to let people wear what they want to wear because it's just not a big deal. The post office will probably be closed sooner or later anyway so the person you know will have nothing to worry about. /kev/null
  • Score: -15

1:07pm Thu 26 Jun 14

CHISSY1 says...

/kev/null wrote:
"So,yes ban them,our country,our rules."

This statement makes the erroneous assumption that we all agree with you. I'm quite happy to let people wear what they want to wear because it's just not a big deal. The post office will probably be closed sooner or later anyway so the person you know will have nothing to worry about.
Sensible people will agree.How would you feel if you or your family were mugged by someone wearing a burka.If someone walks down the street wearing a ski mask they would get stopped by the police.If the same thing happened to someone wearing a burka the old racist card would be played.
[quote][p][bold]/kev/null[/bold] wrote: "So,yes ban them,our country,our rules." This statement makes the erroneous assumption that we all agree with you. I'm quite happy to let people wear what they want to wear because it's just not a big deal. The post office will probably be closed sooner or later anyway so the person you know will have nothing to worry about.[/p][/quote]Sensible people will agree.How would you feel if you or your family were mugged by someone wearing a burka.If someone walks down the street wearing a ski mask they would get stopped by the police.If the same thing happened to someone wearing a burka the old racist card would be played. CHISSY1
  • Score: 9

2:21pm Thu 26 Jun 14

SpinningJenny says...

Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers. SpinningJenny
  • Score: -12

2:43pm Thu 26 Jun 14

PKH says...

SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
It may be the choice for many Muslim women, however men have been known to wear them to either commit crimes or evade capture when wanted, also if I chose to walk around all day in a balaclava with my face hidden it would not be long before I a white male were stopped and question by the police, surely that is racist!!!
[quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]It may be the choice for many Muslim women, however men have been known to wear them to either commit crimes or evade capture when wanted, also if I chose to walk around all day in a balaclava with my face hidden it would not be long before I a white male were stopped and question by the police, surely that is racist!!! PKH
  • Score: 15

6:53pm Thu 26 Jun 14

Buzzz Light-year says...

Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered.
Some cultural boundaries need breaking.
Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered. Some cultural boundaries need breaking. Buzzz Light-year
  • Score: -6

6:58pm Thu 26 Jun 14

CHISSY1 says...

Buzzz Light-year wrote:
Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered.
Some cultural boundaries need breaking.
You do come out with some rubbish.
[quote][p][bold]Buzzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered. Some cultural boundaries need breaking.[/p][/quote]You do come out with some rubbish. CHISSY1
  • Score: 4

8:18pm Thu 26 Jun 14

last of the mandms says...

This letter has been lifted word for word from a comment posted in 2000 on a web site called "Snopes". If the writer is so lazy he can't be bothered to rewrite one single word you have to worry about the accuracy of his research. How would you feel CHISSY if your family was plagerised by someone disguised by a GOOGLE.
This letter has been lifted word for word from a comment posted in 2000 on a web site called "Snopes". If the writer is so lazy he can't be bothered to rewrite one single word you have to worry about the accuracy of his research. How would you feel CHISSY if your family was plagerised by someone disguised by a GOOGLE. last of the mandms
  • Score: 1

9:06pm Thu 26 Jun 14

Pinza-C55 says...

SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder -
“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,”
In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,”
A link to the rest http://freethoughtna
tion.com/what-does-t
he-koran-say-about-w
omen/
I await your reply with interest.
[quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder - “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,” In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men. “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,” A link to the rest http://freethoughtna tion.com/what-does-t he-koran-say-about-w omen/ I await your reply with interest. Pinza-C55
  • Score: 10

10:03pm Thu 26 Jun 14

SpinningJenny says...

Pinza-C55 wrote:
SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder -
“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,”
In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,”
A link to the rest http://freethoughtna

tion.com/what-does-t

he-koran-say-about-w

omen/
I await your reply with interest.
Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?!

Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all!

Oh wait...
[quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder - “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,” In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men. “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,” A link to the rest http://freethoughtna tion.com/what-does-t he-koran-say-about-w omen/ I await your reply with interest.[/p][/quote]Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?! Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all! Oh wait... SpinningJenny
  • Score: -4

10:05pm Thu 26 Jun 14

SpinningJenny says...

PKH wrote:
SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
It may be the choice for many Muslim women, however men have been known to wear them to either commit crimes or evade capture when wanted, also if I chose to walk around all day in a balaclava with my face hidden it would not be long before I a white male were stopped and question by the police, surely that is racist!!!
Can you provide any information from a non-biased source to suggest that the number of crimes committed by people wearing burkas to avoid identification is statistically significant?

Surely it would be more pertinent to argue that more crimes are committed by people not wearing burkas therefore everyone should actually be forced to wear them because it is evidently a clear case of causation & correlation?
[quote][p][bold]PKH[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]It may be the choice for many Muslim women, however men have been known to wear them to either commit crimes or evade capture when wanted, also if I chose to walk around all day in a balaclava with my face hidden it would not be long before I a white male were stopped and question by the police, surely that is racist!!![/p][/quote]Can you provide any information from a non-biased source to suggest that the number of crimes committed by people wearing burkas to avoid identification is statistically significant? Surely it would be more pertinent to argue that more crimes are committed by people not wearing burkas therefore everyone should actually be forced to wear them because it is evidently a clear case of causation & correlation? SpinningJenny
  • Score: -4

11:09pm Thu 26 Jun 14

Pinza-C55 says...

SpinningJenny wrote:
Pinza-C55 wrote:
SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder -
“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,”
In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,”
A link to the rest http://freethoughtna


tion.com/what-does-t


he-koran-say-about-w


omen/
I await your reply with interest.
Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?!

Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all!

Oh wait...
"Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! "
Thanks, I like to help where I can.
No Jenny. The burka is a symptom of the sexism inherent in Islam and indeed all religions are sexist to a greater or lesser extent.
At some level you know that the burka is a symbol of repression but you feel you must defend it because to do otherwise might mean you were racist, even though islam is a religion not a race.
You may like to watch this
https://www.youtube.
com/watch?v=WWrGkdzG
INY
[quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder - “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,” In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men. “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,” A link to the rest http://freethoughtna tion.com/what-does-t he-koran-say-about-w omen/ I await your reply with interest.[/p][/quote]Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?! Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all! Oh wait...[/p][/quote]"Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! " Thanks, I like to help where I can. No Jenny. The burka is a symptom of the sexism inherent in Islam and indeed all religions are sexist to a greater or lesser extent. At some level you know that the burka is a symbol of repression but you feel you must defend it because to do otherwise might mean you were racist, even though islam is a religion not a race. You may like to watch this https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=WWrGkdzG INY Pinza-C55
  • Score: 1

11:31pm Thu 26 Jun 14

Jonothon says...

It is utterly futile to attempt to make a case out any religious text dating from the early middle ages. You may as well try to assemble a sane argument around the Biblical text that says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

As for the nonsense printed above about walking around in a balaclava, well every day of the week you will see men walking around York, just as invisible with a full set of facial hair and sunglasses.
I am opposed to the Burka, and even the similar garment worn by christian nuns with a veil, because it is rooted in a belief common to all religions including Judaism and Christianity, that women are "sinful" and must be hidden. The same belief is at the core of the Catholic refusal to recognise women priests. However I am extremely sceptical about the motivation of people with the most appallingly backward and reactionary views on every issue under the sun, who suddenly get all concerned about the rights of Muslim women.
Nowt to do with Islamophobia I suppose.
It is utterly futile to attempt to make a case out any religious text dating from the early middle ages. You may as well try to assemble a sane argument around the Biblical text that says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" As for the nonsense printed above about walking around in a balaclava, well every day of the week you will see men walking around York, just as invisible with a full set of facial hair and sunglasses. I am opposed to the Burka, and even the similar garment worn by christian nuns with a veil, because it is rooted in a belief common to all religions including Judaism and Christianity, that women are "sinful" and must be hidden. The same belief is at the core of the Catholic refusal to recognise women priests. However I am extremely sceptical about the motivation of people with the most appallingly backward and reactionary views on every issue under the sun, who suddenly get all concerned about the rights of Muslim women. Nowt to do with Islamophobia I suppose. Jonothon
  • Score: -1

2:10am Fri 27 Jun 14

ColdAsChristmas says...

On the other hand, take our naked cyclists, they don't have much to hide.

But how can you have integration with people who's faces you can't even see? About time British culture came first and that is not spicy food and wrapped up women!
On the other hand, take our naked cyclists, they don't have much to hide. But how can you have integration with people who's faces you can't even see? About time British culture came first and that is not spicy food and wrapped up women! ColdAsChristmas
  • Score: 5

5:49am Fri 27 Jun 14

last of the mandms says...

ColdAsChristmas wrote:
On the other hand, take our naked cyclists, they don't have much to hide.

But how can you have integration with people who's faces you can't even see? About time British culture came first and that is not spicy food and wrapped up women!
Bit confused here, naked cyclists, British culture or not ? See the problem here CAC ? There are little bits of everything that don't suit everyone. I am pretty sure if you asked fundemantallists of all religious persuasions their opinion on nudity in public it would be very much in line with yours. From a personal point of view I don't much care for compulsion and that's the major failing in the argument, you do not like the clothing some women wear voluntarily so you would force them to dress the way you prefer by compulsion.
[quote][p][bold]ColdAsChristmas[/bold] wrote: On the other hand, take our naked cyclists, they don't have much to hide. But how can you have integration with people who's faces you can't even see? About time British culture came first and that is not spicy food and wrapped up women![/p][/quote]Bit confused here, naked cyclists, British culture or not ? See the problem here CAC ? There are little bits of everything that don't suit everyone. I am pretty sure if you asked fundemantallists of all religious persuasions their opinion on nudity in public it would be very much in line with yours. From a personal point of view I don't much care for compulsion and that's the major failing in the argument, you do not like the clothing some women wear voluntarily so you would force them to dress the way you prefer by compulsion. last of the mandms
  • Score: 5

7:50am Fri 27 Jun 14

Thecynic says...

As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women.
Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view.

With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups.

I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them.
Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka?

Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that!

So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.
As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women. Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view. With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups. I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them. Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka? Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that! So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view. Thecynic
  • Score: 7

8:06am Fri 27 Jun 14

Buzzz Light-year says...

CHISSY1 wrote:
Buzzz Light-year wrote:
Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered.
Some cultural boundaries need breaking.
You do come out with some rubbish.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that you don't understand.
You're not a lost cause though, there is hope.
[quote][p][bold]CHISSY1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Buzzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: Too much worrying about what clothes people choose to wear and what trappings, hidden meanings or threats may or may not be included with them is a sign that not enough psychedelic drugs are being administered. Some cultural boundaries need breaking.[/p][/quote]You do come out with some rubbish.[/p][/quote]It doesn't surprise me in the least that you don't understand. You're not a lost cause though, there is hope. Buzzz Light-year
  • Score: -4

10:44am Fri 27 Jun 14

Jonothon says...

Thecynic wrote:
As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women.
Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view.

With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups.

I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them.
Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka?

Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that!

So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.
I answered a whole swathe of this in my 11.31 posting yesterday and you have ignored it all and raised many of the same points again.

The conflation of Burkas and Nazi uniform, uninformed assumptions that the burka is to cover physical abuse are merely speculation, "sunworshippers of the Amazon" etc. All codswallop. Speculation not grounded in fact has no evidential value and should be disregarded.

What is fact is that ALL fundamentalism invariably denigrates women. Women are denied equal status in all religions. Orthodox Judaism demands head shaving and the wearing of wigs, monthly cleansing baths, separate worship. The wearing of Jewish Burkas is increasingly common in areas of Jerusalem, (google Jewish Burkas it, it's a fact)
The catholic church refuses equal rights to women, and has a long tradition of tolerating, even enabling child abuse by priests. Most evangelicals claim rights to control female fertility and birth control, not just for their members, but for all of us.

There is an informed debate to be had. Uninformed prejudice leads into dangerous areas. People who want to discuss abuse of women in Islam but not in other faiths should examine their motivation

Last week a student wearing religious dress was stabbed to death.
[quote][p][bold]Thecynic[/bold] wrote: As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women. Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view. With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups. I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them. Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka? Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that! So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.[/p][/quote]I answered a whole swathe of this in my 11.31 posting yesterday and you have ignored it all and raised many of the same points again. The conflation of Burkas and Nazi uniform, uninformed assumptions that the burka is to cover physical abuse are merely speculation, "sunworshippers of the Amazon" etc. All codswallop. Speculation not grounded in fact has no evidential value and should be disregarded. What is fact is that ALL fundamentalism invariably denigrates women. Women are denied equal status in all religions. Orthodox Judaism demands head shaving and the wearing of wigs, monthly cleansing baths, separate worship. The wearing of Jewish Burkas is increasingly common in areas of Jerusalem, (google Jewish Burkas it, it's a fact) The catholic church refuses equal rights to women, and has a long tradition of tolerating, even enabling child abuse by priests. Most evangelicals claim rights to control female fertility and birth control, not just for their members, but for all of us. There is an informed debate to be had. Uninformed prejudice leads into dangerous areas. People who want to discuss abuse of women in Islam but not in other faiths should examine their motivation Last week a student wearing religious dress was stabbed to death. Jonothon
  • Score: -5

10:44am Fri 27 Jun 14

Dr Robert says...

bravo whisky wrote:
That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places.
Excellent comment from the above, 'FGM' female genital mutilation, and forced/arranged marriages , which goes on under the so-called muslim faith, needs the full weight of British law bringing down on the perpetrators.
[quote][p][bold]bravo whisky[/bold] wrote: That's the way to do it, I personally find it a insult that muslim women are allowed to walk around Britain , and now increasingly York, in this ridiculous garb. We have had soldiers dying in Afghan for years supposedly to liberate women from such suppression by muslim men. It is nothing to do with their religion according to the Muslim Council of Great Britain, and is certainly not conducive with integration into British Society. For a woman to walk around in one hundred degrees of heat covered from head to toe in black is not doing it through choice and is not healthy. Britain needs to follow France and Belgium and ban the burka in public places.[/p][/quote]Excellent comment from the above, 'FGM' female genital mutilation, and forced/arranged marriages , which goes on under the so-called muslim faith, needs the full weight of British law bringing down on the perpetrators. Dr Robert
  • Score: 4

10:49am Fri 27 Jun 14

SpinningJenny says...

Thecynic wrote:
As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women.
Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view.

With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups.

I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them.
Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka?

Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that!

So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.
Are you Muslim? Or a woman? Or a Muslim woman?

Unless so I don't think you have a right to claim what their culture means or claim to have knowledge about the inner workings of Muslim women's minds and how terribly oppressed they all are. This is exactly the kind of 'white saviour' attitude that many people in this country adopt when it comes to burkas - pretending to be concerned about the rights of women from other cultures without actually bothering to listen to what those women have to say.

And comparing Islam to Nazism? Really? There is no way you can deny that is racism. Not to mention that Middle Eastern cultures are hardly unique in 'men beating their women' - that happens on a daily basis here in the UK and in every country across the world.
[quote][p][bold]Thecynic[/bold] wrote: As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women. Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view. With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups. I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them. Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka? Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that! So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.[/p][/quote]Are you Muslim? Or a woman? Or a Muslim woman? Unless so I don't think you have a right to claim what their culture means or claim to have knowledge about the inner workings of Muslim women's minds and how terribly oppressed they all are. This is exactly the kind of 'white saviour' attitude that many people in this country adopt when it comes to burkas - pretending to be concerned about the rights of women from other cultures without actually bothering to listen to what those women have to say. And comparing Islam to Nazism? Really? There is no way you can deny that is racism. Not to mention that Middle Eastern cultures are hardly unique in 'men beating their women' - that happens on a daily basis here in the UK and in every country across the world. SpinningJenny
  • Score: 0

10:55am Fri 27 Jun 14

SpinningJenny says...

Pinza-C55 wrote:
SpinningJenny wrote:
Pinza-C55 wrote:
SpinningJenny wrote:
Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims.

The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world.

__

And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.
Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder -
“Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,”
In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,”
A link to the rest http://freethoughtna



tion.com/what-does-t



he-koran-say-about-w



omen/
I await your reply with interest.
Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?!

Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all!

Oh wait...
"Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! "
Thanks, I like to help where I can.
No Jenny. The burka is a symptom of the sexism inherent in Islam and indeed all religions are sexist to a greater or lesser extent.
At some level you know that the burka is a symbol of repression but you feel you must defend it because to do otherwise might mean you were racist, even though islam is a religion not a race.
You may like to watch this
https://www.youtube.

com/watch?v=WWrGkdzG

INY
The burka *can* be a symptom of established misogyny but that doesn't mean it always is. As a white woman I recognise that I shouldn't speak over the voices of Muslim women and attempt to enforce my own beliefs onto them. If they do not believe that they are oppressed then it is not our job to 'save' them and if they do believe that they are oppressed, our role should be to amplify their voices and give a platform to their arguments, not make decisions for them based on what we think is best based on our arbitrary moral judgments and a complete lack of first-hand experience.

Islam is indeed a religion, not a race, but one could claim the same about Judaism. Islam is generally tied to certain cultures and to deny that there is a link to race is being deliberately obtuse.
[quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: Except for the vast majority of Muslim women in this country it is a choice they make freely. People who wear burkas may even view Western women's clothing choices as a sign of oppression. Security issues are dealt with through the law where burka-wearing women are required to provide adequate identification for those situations when it is required - if they have fulfilled these requirements then it is not their duty to alter their lifestyles just to please your whims. The idea that the war in the Middle East has been for us 'superior' Westerners to 'liberate' the poor Muslims is offensive - it denies the people (particularly the women) in those countries their own agency and control in the situation. They are making progress towards equality on a daily basis but are not being recognised in the Western media for it, meanwhile we present ourselves as moral saviours for the uncivilised world. __ And finally, while the letter itself may have been intended as a joke, it was in very bad taste - including prejudice against Muslim women/islamophobia in general, and shaming of sex workers.[/p][/quote]Assuming that you are a woman Jenny, it's wonderful that you are so liberal. Here are a couple of choice quotes from the quran which you may like to ponder - “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223, “The Cow,” In other words, women exist solely for the sexual gratification of men. “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34, “Women,” A link to the rest http://freethoughtna tion.com/what-does-t he-koran-say-about-w omen/ I await your reply with interest.[/p][/quote]Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! Who knew?! Surely this is just unique to Islam and is not a part of every mainstream religion across the world (including Britain's 'native' Christianity) and the controversy over burkas is not a product of casual islamophobia at all! Oh wait...[/p][/quote]"Wow, you've completely opening my eyes to the idea that religion could be sexist! " Thanks, I like to help where I can. No Jenny. The burka is a symptom of the sexism inherent in Islam and indeed all religions are sexist to a greater or lesser extent. At some level you know that the burka is a symbol of repression but you feel you must defend it because to do otherwise might mean you were racist, even though islam is a religion not a race. You may like to watch this https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=WWrGkdzG INY[/p][/quote]The burka *can* be a symptom of established misogyny but that doesn't mean it always is. As a white woman I recognise that I shouldn't speak over the voices of Muslim women and attempt to enforce my own beliefs onto them. If they do not believe that they are oppressed then it is not our job to 'save' them and if they do believe that they are oppressed, our role should be to amplify their voices and give a platform to their arguments, not make decisions for them based on what we think is best based on our arbitrary moral judgments and a complete lack of first-hand experience. Islam is indeed a religion, not a race, but one could claim the same about Judaism. Islam is generally tied to certain cultures and to deny that there is a link to race is being deliberately obtuse. SpinningJenny
  • Score: -4

2:41pm Fri 27 Jun 14

Thecynic says...

SpinningJenny wrote:
Thecynic wrote:
As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women.
Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view.

With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups.

I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them.
Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka?

Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that!

So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.
Are you Muslim? Or a woman? Or a Muslim woman?

Unless so I don't think you have a right to claim what their culture means or claim to have knowledge about the inner workings of Muslim women's minds and how terribly oppressed they all are. This is exactly the kind of 'white saviour' attitude that many people in this country adopt when it comes to burkas - pretending to be concerned about the rights of women from other cultures without actually bothering to listen to what those women have to say.

And comparing Islam to Nazism? Really? There is no way you can deny that is racism. Not to mention that Middle Eastern cultures are hardly unique in 'men beating their women' - that happens on a daily basis here in the UK and in every country across the world.
I am not sure which letter you have been reading here? Certainly not mine by the response you give.
Firstly, I am neither a Muslim, female, or a Muslim female, (what that's got to do with anything I don't know?) I have many friends, both male and female from Middle East Countries, I visit their homes have meals with them and we share great friendship. My comments come from 'the horses mouth', it is not speculation or something from the internet. I probably have more experience, understanding and knowledge of the situations that some Muslim women have had to endure, than you ever will! So I believe I am well qualified, and do have the right to add my piece to the discussion.
As to your comments about having 'white saviour attitude', again you have totally missed the meaning, there is no 'saviour attitude', merely a wish to see everyone treat equally, whether male or female, not 'pretending to care' as you seem to claim, but actually to care.
Now about comparing Islam to Nazism? where exactly? It must be in invisible ink? I stated that the outward appearence, ie the Nazi uniform and the Burka were both symbols of oppression, not the fact that Islam was similar to Nazism. Please try to read a post thoroughly BEFORE engaging fingers to type!
Next, where did I state that physical abuse against women from men was unique to the middle east? I actually said that it was a well known fact, and the fact is that it is more socially acceptable in some middle eastern countries, and on occasion sometimes encouraged by their own families to beat their women. You can hardly stand there and claim that it is a comparable situation to here in the UK.
It seems you either haven't enough time to spend actually reading, digesting and understanding what is being said? or you are so intent on trying to defend the ideals that you don't wish to understand the arguments against Burka wearing.
[quote][p][bold]SpinningJenny[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Thecynic[/bold] wrote: As has previously been said many times before. The Burka is NOT part of the Muslim beliefs. However it IS used as a sort of cultural opression card in their native Countries against women. Many Muslim women do not dare to oppose the views of their fellow countrymen (specifically men) and will defend it in public to anyone who questions them. However the private thoughts and opinions of many Muslim women take a very different view. With this in mind, allowing the wearing of the Burka is tantamount to condoning the opression of women. Just over 75 years ago WWII was fought against a state that condoned just such views. Namely the Nazi's who opressed the Jewish people, homosexuals, disabled people and many other minority groups. I'm sure that if you walk around in public view anywhere in England wearing a Nazi uniform? It won't be too long before you are stopped by the police, maybe even arrested. So what's the difference between that and the wearing of a Burka? The latter of course, while displaying a supportive attitude of the cultural opression of Muslim women, has the added distinction of making that person incognito to the vast majority of people who come into contact with them. Of course it is widely known that in some cultures men beat their women, usually for the most trivial of things. What better way for a 'man' to hide his crime than to force his woman to wear a Burka? Oh, and about the religious issue? as has been said it is Not a requirement of Islam, but even if it were? What stance would the Government take if say a tribe of Sun Worshippers from the Amazon were to take up residence, where their Religion specified they had to walk around without clothes and had to copulate at certain times of the day whether they were in public or not? I'm sure that 'Religious exemption' would soon be stopped for that! So YES, ban it from the moral, safety, (the womens safety in not being able to so easily cover up any bruises from beatings) and security, (to allow the authorities to utilise their facial recognition camera technology in our streets to identify known terrorists) points of view.[/p][/quote]Are you Muslim? Or a woman? Or a Muslim woman? Unless so I don't think you have a right to claim what their culture means or claim to have knowledge about the inner workings of Muslim women's minds and how terribly oppressed they all are. This is exactly the kind of 'white saviour' attitude that many people in this country adopt when it comes to burkas - pretending to be concerned about the rights of women from other cultures without actually bothering to listen to what those women have to say. And comparing Islam to Nazism? Really? There is no way you can deny that is racism. Not to mention that Middle Eastern cultures are hardly unique in 'men beating their women' - that happens on a daily basis here in the UK and in every country across the world.[/p][/quote]I am not sure which letter you have been reading here? Certainly not mine by the response you give. Firstly, I am neither a Muslim, female, or a Muslim female, (what that's got to do with anything I don't know?) I have many friends, both male and female from Middle East Countries, I visit their homes have meals with them and we share great friendship. My comments come from 'the horses mouth', it is not speculation or something from the internet. I probably have more experience, understanding and knowledge of the situations that some Muslim women have had to endure, than you ever will! So I believe I am well qualified, and do have the right to add my piece to the discussion. As to your comments about having 'white saviour attitude', again you have totally missed the meaning, there is no 'saviour attitude', merely a wish to see everyone treat equally, whether male or female, not 'pretending to care' as you seem to claim, but actually to care. Now about comparing Islam to Nazism? where exactly? It must be in invisible ink? I stated that the outward appearence, ie the Nazi uniform and the Burka were both symbols of oppression, not the fact that Islam was similar to Nazism. Please try to read a post thoroughly BEFORE engaging fingers to type! Next, where did I state that physical abuse against women from men was unique to the middle east? I actually said that it was a well known fact, and the fact is that it is more socially acceptable in some middle eastern countries, and on occasion sometimes encouraged by their own families to beat their women. You can hardly stand there and claim that it is a comparable situation to here in the UK. It seems you either haven't enough time to spend actually reading, digesting and understanding what is being said? or you are so intent on trying to defend the ideals that you don't wish to understand the arguments against Burka wearing. Thecynic
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