York firm aims to run tilting trains on East Coast Mainline

York firm aims to run tilting trains on East Coast Mainline

York firm aims to run tilting trains on East Coast Mainline

First published in News
Last updated
York Press: Photograph of the Author by , Chief reporter

TILTING trains are set to be launched by a York rail firm on the East Coast Mainline from Edinburgh to London - but they won’t stop to pick up passengers from York station.

Alliance Rail Holdings, which is based in The Mount, plans to run up to 12 Pendolinos between Edinburgh, Newcastle and London by 2016 under the brand name Great North Eastern Railways (GNER).

Chris Hanks, the company's head of development, said journey times would initially be slashed from an average of 4 hours 20 minutes to 3 hours 43 minutes between London and Edinburgh, and to 2 hours 29 minutes between London and Newcastle.

But because the Pendolinos would be capable of running at 140 mph, there was the potential for GNER eventually to offer a journey between Edinburgh and London in under 3½ hours, once Network Rail had modernised signalling.

The first phase of such work should be completed at the end of 2018.

Mr Hanks said the tilting trains, which could travel at higher speeds on curved track, would be updated versions of the Pendolinos which had been successful in reducing long distance journey times on the West Coast Main Line.

He said that by reducing journey times, and focussing on the Newcastle and Edinburgh markets, GNER would encourage many travellers to switch from air to rail.

The trains would not stop in York because it had been calculated that this would add an extra four minutes to the journey time, and York is already served by both East Coast and Grand Central, however there is potential it could impact on future applications to use additional capacity on any part of the route.

The new service will require permission from the Office of Rail Regulation before it can be launched.

Alliance is headed by Ian Yeowart, former boss of York-based Grand Central, which - like Alliance - has Arriva as its parent company.

Mr Yeowart said the new service would be the most significant change on the East Coast Main Line since the introduction of High Speed Trains.

The future of the line's main operator, East Coast, is yet to be decided. The Government has said it wants to re-privatise the franchise but there have been calls for it to remain in public ownership.

Comments (21)

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3:28pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Garrowby Turnoff says...

Can the tilting train overtake? Or else won't it just be held up by slow tractors - like the A1079...
Can the tilting train overtake? Or else won't it just be held up by slow tractors - like the A1079... Garrowby Turnoff
  • Score: 20

3:34pm Tue 18 Mar 14

CaroleBaines says...

Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.
Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter. CaroleBaines
  • Score: 3

3:48pm Tue 18 Mar 14

sonorbloke says...

CaroleBaines wrote:
Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.
The trains he's proposing are electric, not diesel. They are very similar to the ones which operate on the West Coast Main Line for Virgin.
[quote][p][bold]CaroleBaines[/bold] wrote: Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.[/p][/quote]The trains he's proposing are electric, not diesel. They are very similar to the ones which operate on the West Coast Main Line for Virgin. sonorbloke
  • Score: 20

4:30pm Tue 18 Mar 14

ilikechocolate says...

to Garrowby Turnoff, trains can overtake if there is a 4 track railway but East Coast Main Line has a lot of 2 track railway. I cannot see there will be capacity for these trains to run at 140mph as even on the Fast lines it will be held up by other services running at 125 and 90 mph never minding the Freight trains at 60 mph where there are no Slow lines.
to Garrowby Turnoff, trains can overtake if there is a 4 track railway but East Coast Main Line has a lot of 2 track railway. I cannot see there will be capacity for these trains to run at 140mph as even on the Fast lines it will be held up by other services running at 125 and 90 mph never minding the Freight trains at 60 mph where there are no Slow lines. ilikechocolate
  • Score: 17

5:44pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Ignatius Lumpopo says...

If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?
If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph? Ignatius Lumpopo
  • Score: 20

5:58pm Tue 18 Mar 14

CaroleBaines says...

sonorbloke wrote:
CaroleBaines wrote:
Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.
The trains he's proposing are electric, not diesel. They are very similar to the ones which operate on the West Coast Main Line for Virgin.
Thanks - did not appreciate that. :-)
[quote][p][bold]sonorbloke[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CaroleBaines[/bold] wrote: Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.[/p][/quote]The trains he's proposing are electric, not diesel. They are very similar to the ones which operate on the West Coast Main Line for Virgin.[/p][/quote]Thanks - did not appreciate that. :-) CaroleBaines
  • Score: 5

5:59pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Blimp says...

We can't wait to hear a voice coming from the buffet car:

"Have you seen my sausage roll?"

(We wish we could take the credit for this, but it was a Private Eye cover years ago.)

All further childish jokes on this topic will be very welcome.

Brilliant, love it! More please.
We can't wait to hear a voice coming from the buffet car: "Have you seen my sausage roll?" (We wish we could take the credit for this, but it was a Private Eye cover years ago.) All further childish jokes on this topic will be very welcome. Brilliant, love it! More please. Blimp
  • Score: 1

7:47pm Tue 18 Mar 14

piaggio1 says...

Are these things made in britain????
Allways thought they were italian.
Are these things made in britain???? Allways thought they were italian. piaggio1
  • Score: 5

8:19pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Seadog says...

So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway!
So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway! Seadog
  • Score: 13

9:02pm Tue 18 Mar 14

CaroleBaines says...

Seadog wrote:
So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway!
Exactly.
[quote][p][bold]Seadog[/bold] wrote: So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway![/p][/quote]Exactly. CaroleBaines
  • Score: 6

10:03pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Tug job says...

Seadog wrote:
So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway!
No, it's stopping the train at York that would add 4 minutes to the journey time. Are you unable to comprehend what you read?
[quote][p][bold]Seadog[/bold] wrote: So not stopping at York will add 4 minutes to the journey time? I'd have thought the kind of people who'd be worried about four wasted minutes in York would be flying anyway![/p][/quote]No, it's stopping the train at York that would add 4 minutes to the journey time. Are you unable to comprehend what you read? Tug job
  • Score: -3

4:06am Wed 19 Mar 14

Magicman! says...

ilikechocolate wrote:
to Garrowby Turnoff, trains can overtake if there is a 4 track railway but East Coast Main Line has a lot of 2 track railway. I cannot see there will be capacity for these trains to run at 140mph as even on the Fast lines it will be held up by other services running at 125 and 90 mph never minding the Freight trains at 60 mph where there are no Slow lines.
Well by 2018 the current Intercity 125 (HST's) and Intercity 225 trains will start to be replaced by a rolling programme that introduces the new Hitachi InterCity Express train to the route - and these will be running at 140mph too. The Transpennine trains which currently go along the ECML at 100mph will be replaced by 2018 after the York-Manchester line has been electrified.


It's also worth noting that a Pendolio has already been on the full length of the East Coast Main Line - it undertook night tests in both directions for 2 nights a while back.
[quote][p][bold]ilikechocolate[/bold] wrote: to Garrowby Turnoff, trains can overtake if there is a 4 track railway but East Coast Main Line has a lot of 2 track railway. I cannot see there will be capacity for these trains to run at 140mph as even on the Fast lines it will be held up by other services running at 125 and 90 mph never minding the Freight trains at 60 mph where there are no Slow lines.[/p][/quote]Well by 2018 the current Intercity 125 (HST's) and Intercity 225 trains will start to be replaced by a rolling programme that introduces the new Hitachi InterCity Express train to the route - and these will be running at 140mph too. The Transpennine trains which currently go along the ECML at 100mph will be replaced by 2018 after the York-Manchester line has been electrified. It's also worth noting that a Pendolio has already been on the full length of the East Coast Main Line - it undertook night tests in both directions for 2 nights a while back. Magicman!
  • Score: 2

4:16am Wed 19 Mar 14

Magicman! says...

piaggio1 wrote:
Are these things made in britain????
Allways thought they were italian.
They are Italian yes, but using what was originally British technology.... brief history is in the 1980's British Rail started to test what was called the Advanced Passenger Train (APT) on the west coast main line - it was a pioneering design that tilted on the bends and allowed much faster journeys. Because this was the cutting edge of what was possible, there were some teething issues (some carriages not tilting for example) combined with poor design choices (having a power car containing the engine right in the middle of the train, passengers not being allowed to go through it), and also sometimes it wasn't reliable (again, because it was brand new and there was nothing to compare it to)... the day the press came along to ride the train, they took full advantage of a free bar the night before - then, nursing hangovers, got on to the high speed tilting train: with quite obvious results. This was also done on a day with bad snow storms which either closed the line or badly effected the electric motors on the train and the service terminated short at Crewe instead of London.... so the train got a load of bad press for it.

Now because it was so new, it took a lot of developing - but the engineers were just about getting there when the funding was cut. And then, with a system almost ready for a full public launch, the Tory government of the time which ran BR decided to axe the project and sell the technology and patents, for a quick profit, to a small company in Italy. And now that company exports tilting trains around the world, using British technology sold to them cheaply by self-serving Tories looking to make a quick buck for their back pockets.

-----

side note, the reason these trains won't be calling at York is due to fare abstraction issues. Many people might remember how much of a tantrum the original GNER made when Grand Central started operating services in competition to them - this issue would be repeated, if not worse, should another company then operate in competition too.
[quote][p][bold]piaggio1[/bold] wrote: Are these things made in britain???? Allways thought they were italian.[/p][/quote]They are Italian yes, but using what was originally British technology.... brief history is in the 1980's British Rail started to test what was called the Advanced Passenger Train (APT) on the west coast main line - it was a pioneering design that tilted on the bends and allowed much faster journeys. Because this was the cutting edge of what was possible, there were some teething issues (some carriages not tilting for example) combined with poor design choices (having a power car containing the engine right in the middle of the train, passengers not being allowed to go through it), and also sometimes it wasn't reliable (again, because it was brand new and there was nothing to compare it to)... the day the press came along to ride the train, they took full advantage of a free bar the night before - then, nursing hangovers, got on to the high speed tilting train: with quite obvious results. This was also done on a day with bad snow storms which either closed the line or badly effected the electric motors on the train and the service terminated short at Crewe instead of London.... so the train got a load of bad press for it. Now because it was so new, it took a lot of developing - but the engineers were just about getting there when the funding was cut. And then, with a system almost ready for a full public launch, the Tory government of the time which ran BR decided to axe the project and sell the technology and patents, for a quick profit, to a small company in Italy. And now that company exports tilting trains around the world, using British technology sold to them cheaply by self-serving Tories looking to make a quick buck for their back pockets. ----- side note, the reason these trains won't be calling at York is due to fare abstraction issues. Many people might remember how much of a tantrum the original GNER made when Grand Central started operating services in competition to them - this issue would be repeated, if not worse, should another company then operate in competition too. Magicman!
  • Score: 10

4:54am Wed 19 Mar 14

Plebyork says...

It is well known that the best use of line capacity is achieved by running trains close together at the same speed. We need more 4-track sections to keep slower trains separate.
There is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for York to have a Transport Interchange a the back of the current station with access for 'buses and taxis via a bridge if Network Rail could be persuaded to move the current freight lines nearer to the station.
This would then open the way for HS.2 to use the present Leeds lines from north of Church Fenton and call at York.
It is well known that the best use of line capacity is achieved by running trains close together at the same speed. We need more 4-track sections to keep slower trains separate. There is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for York to have a Transport Interchange a the back of the current station with access for 'buses and taxis via a bridge if Network Rail could be persuaded to move the current freight lines nearer to the station. This would then open the way for HS.2 to use the present Leeds lines from north of Church Fenton and call at York. Plebyork
  • Score: 6

2:49pm Wed 19 Mar 14

mmarshal says...

Am I correct in thinking that HS2 at its nearest point will stop near Church Fenton and the Pendolinos won't stop near York at all.
Perhaps 'somebody' is trying to tell us something. Come on Visit York, start earning your keep.
Am I correct in thinking that HS2 at its nearest point will stop near Church Fenton and the Pendolinos won't stop near York at all. Perhaps 'somebody' is trying to tell us something. Come on Visit York, start earning your keep. mmarshal
  • Score: 1

9:22pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Pinza-C55 says...

CaroleBaines wrote:
Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.
Trains with engines under each carriage - Diesel Multiple Units or DMU's for short - have been the mainstay of what used to be our railway network since 1958.
This isn't Thomas The Tank Engine Carole.
[quote][p][bold]CaroleBaines[/bold] wrote: Dislike trains with engines under each carriage. Can we not have the units at either end? So much quieter.[/p][/quote]Trains with engines under each carriage - Diesel Multiple Units or DMU's for short - have been the mainstay of what used to be our railway network since 1958. This isn't Thomas The Tank Engine Carole. Pinza-C55
  • Score: 1

9:31pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Pinza-C55 says...

Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?
They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required.
[quote][p][bold]Ignatius Lumpopo[/bold] wrote: If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?[/p][/quote]They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required. Pinza-C55
  • Score: 1

2:25am Thu 20 Mar 14

Magicman! says...

Pinza-C55 wrote:
Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?
They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required.
I thought the 'Flying Scotsman' southbound morning train used that avoiding line (it goes from Scotland to London calling only at Newcastle).... Seems a bit of a waste electrifying those lines and now they're not being used by electric trains.
[quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ignatius Lumpopo[/bold] wrote: If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?[/p][/quote]They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required.[/p][/quote]I thought the 'Flying Scotsman' southbound morning train used that avoiding line (it goes from Scotland to London calling only at Newcastle).... Seems a bit of a waste electrifying those lines and now they're not being used by electric trains. Magicman!
  • Score: 0

2:27am Thu 20 Mar 14

Magicman! says...

mmarshal wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that HS2 at its nearest point will stop near Church Fenton and the Pendolinos won't stop near York at all.
Perhaps 'somebody' is trying to tell us something. Come on Visit York, start earning your keep.
As I understand it, whilst the High Speed HS2 line technically will stop at Church Fenton, the trains will not stop there... the HS2 specification was that the guage be the same as the standard UK rail network specifically so the trains could run on normal lines - and so the HS2 trains will come off the Highspeed line at CHF and then carry on to York and beyond as a normal train.
[quote][p][bold]mmarshal[/bold] wrote: Am I correct in thinking that HS2 at its nearest point will stop near Church Fenton and the Pendolinos won't stop near York at all. Perhaps 'somebody' is trying to tell us something. Come on Visit York, start earning your keep.[/p][/quote]As I understand it, whilst the High Speed HS2 line technically will stop at Church Fenton, the trains will not stop there... the HS2 specification was that the guage be the same as the standard UK rail network specifically so the trains could run on normal lines - and so the HS2 trains will come off the Highspeed line at CHF and then carry on to York and beyond as a normal train. Magicman!
  • Score: 1

12:09pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Pinza-C55 says...

Magicman! wrote:
Pinza-C55 wrote:
Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?
They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required.
I thought the 'Flying Scotsman' southbound morning train used that avoiding line (it goes from Scotland to London calling only at Newcastle).... Seems a bit of a waste electrifying those lines and now they're not being used by electric trains.
If it uses the avoiding line then it isn't a freight line. It requires a statutory procedure to upgrade a freight line to passenger use and other measures such as improved signalling.
That's why some lines such as Stalybridge - Stockport have just one passenger train a week, because it avoids the expensive closure procedure to passenger use.
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pinza-C55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ignatius Lumpopo[/bold] wrote: If they aren't going to stop at York, I look forward to them tilting to the max as they take the Holgate freight curve at - what - 120mph?[/p][/quote]They won't be using the freight lines because they are - freight lines. Current train crews don't have "Route Knowledge" of the lines thus they are not allowed to work trains over them unless they are accompanied by a Driver and Conductor with Route Knowledge. Since the demise of British Rail this rarely happens since the private rail companies do not wish to pay for the additional staff required.[/p][/quote]I thought the 'Flying Scotsman' southbound morning train used that avoiding line (it goes from Scotland to London calling only at Newcastle).... Seems a bit of a waste electrifying those lines and now they're not being used by electric trains.[/p][/quote]If it uses the avoiding line then it isn't a freight line. It requires a statutory procedure to upgrade a freight line to passenger use and other measures such as improved signalling. That's why some lines such as Stalybridge - Stockport have just one passenger train a week, because it avoids the expensive closure procedure to passenger use. Pinza-C55
  • Score: 1

2:10pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Kevin Turvey says...

‘Magicman! says...
piaggio1 wrote:
Are these things made in britain????
Allways thought they were italian.
They are Italian yes, but using what was originally British technology.... brief history is in the 1980's British Rail started to test what was called the Advanced Passenger Train (APT) on the west coast main line - it was a pioneering design that tilted on the bends and allowed much faster journeys. Because this was the cutting edge of what was possible, there were some teething issues (some carriages not tilting for example) combined with poor design choices (having a power car containing the engine right in the middle of the train, passengers not being allowed to go through it), and also sometimes it wasn't reliable (again, because it was brand new and there was nothing to compare it to)... the day the press came along to ride the train, they took full advantage of a free bar the night before - then, nursing hangovers, got on to the high speed tilting train: with quite obvious results. This was also done on a day with bad snow storms which either closed the line or badly effected the electric motors on the train and the service terminated short at Crewe instead of London.... so the train got a load of bad press for it.

Now because it was so new, it took a lot of developing - but the engineers were just about getting there when the funding was cut. And then, with a system almost ready for a full public launch, the Tory government of the time which ran BR decided to axe the project and sell the technology and patents, for a quick profit, to a small company in Italy. And now that company exports tilting trains around the world, using British technology sold to them cheaply by self-serving Tories looking to make a quick buck for their back pockets.

-----

side note, the reason these trains won't be calling at York is due to fare abstraction issues. Many people might remember how much of a tantrum the original GNER made when Grand Central started operating services in competition to them - this issue would be repeated, if not worse, should another company then operate in competition too.’


A straight Yes or no would have been more than adequate, with possibly a small mention that they were Italian to really push the boat out.

Train buffs do have tendency to go on a bit don’t they!

Are you a member of the IRSE (Institution of Really Sad Engineers)?
‘Magicman! says... piaggio1 wrote: Are these things made in britain???? Allways thought they were italian. They are Italian yes, but using what was originally British technology.... brief history is in the 1980's British Rail started to test what was called the Advanced Passenger Train (APT) on the west coast main line - it was a pioneering design that tilted on the bends and allowed much faster journeys. Because this was the cutting edge of what was possible, there were some teething issues (some carriages not tilting for example) combined with poor design choices (having a power car containing the engine right in the middle of the train, passengers not being allowed to go through it), and also sometimes it wasn't reliable (again, because it was brand new and there was nothing to compare it to)... the day the press came along to ride the train, they took full advantage of a free bar the night before - then, nursing hangovers, got on to the high speed tilting train: with quite obvious results. This was also done on a day with bad snow storms which either closed the line or badly effected the electric motors on the train and the service terminated short at Crewe instead of London.... so the train got a load of bad press for it. Now because it was so new, it took a lot of developing - but the engineers were just about getting there when the funding was cut. And then, with a system almost ready for a full public launch, the Tory government of the time which ran BR decided to axe the project and sell the technology and patents, for a quick profit, to a small company in Italy. And now that company exports tilting trains around the world, using British technology sold to them cheaply by self-serving Tories looking to make a quick buck for their back pockets. ----- side note, the reason these trains won't be calling at York is due to fare abstraction issues. Many people might remember how much of a tantrum the original GNER made when Grand Central started operating services in competition to them - this issue would be repeated, if not worse, should another company then operate in competition too.’ A straight Yes or no would have been more than adequate, with possibly a small mention that they were Italian to really push the boat out. Train buffs do have tendency to go on a bit don’t they! Are you a member of the IRSE (Institution of Really Sad Engineers)? Kevin Turvey
  • Score: 0

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