CHRIS Brass and Lee Nogan may still be finding their feet in football management but together the duo have experience galore when it comes to the LDV Vans Trophy.

City have fallen at the first hurdle in each of their last six attempts in the competition but Brass too has particularly painful memories of the tournament under one of its many previous guises.

While at Burnley, the Clarets were denied a trip to Wembley when they were beaten by Grimsby Town in the Northern Area final of the Auto Windscreens Shield.

His assistant, Lee Nogan, scored one of the goals which knocked Burnley and Brass out as the Mariners went on to beat Bournemouth in the 1998 final.

A few months later and Grimsby and Nogan were back at Wembley to win promotion via the play-off finals.

But it says much for tonight's competition that it was winning the cup rather than promotion that Nogan reckons Mariners fans remember with more affection.

"We won it on golden goal against Bournemouth," said City's assistant boss.

"It was a tremendous day and a tremendous occasion.

"We had more fans at the cup final than we had at the promotion final. That says a lot."

Remembers Brass: "I was fortunate to have played at Wembley. Some of the older Burnley players though had never played there and knew once we got beat they would never get there again.

"That's why this competition is important. Chances to play in cup-finals at somewhere like the Millennium Stadium do not come along that often."

Updated: 11:09 Tuesday, October 14, 2003