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Pub defends toilet cameras as a means of tackling drug use
11:10am Tuesday 8th April 2008
IT IS believed to be the first pub in York to introduce CCTV inside its toilet cubicles to combat drug use, but the decision has provoked privacy concerns.
The Rose & Crown, in Lawrence Street, installed cameras inside the cubicles in the ladies' toilets about a month ago following problems with women - and men - using surfaces in the stalls to prepare lines of cocaine to snort.
Because of the small number of female staff in the pub working busy Friday and Saturday nights, the management found it difficult to patrol the area.
Some people had even entered the pub through its backdoor, going straight into the ladies' toilets to take drugs, without drinking at the bar.
After consulting with licensing officers at the police and City of York Council, landlord and landlady Peter and Jill Green installed a camera in each cubicle, directed at the surfaces above and behind the toilet itself.
The Greens are currently out of the country, but manager Sarah Coates defended the pub's decision.
She assured customers they could not be viewed while on the toilet. She said: "We have the cameras in the cubicles, but they only look up from a certain height. When people are sitting down, you can't see anything at all. We have signs up too, which the police have seen."
She said the cameras were motion-sensitive and only switched on when they detected motion in the area above and behind the toilets.
"I've had customers come in with concerns," said Sarah, who lives on the premises. "I say to them that I don't mind them coming up into my living room to see the recording."
The Press has seen the video procedure, which does not capture the toilet itself in the field of vision.
Sarah said CCTV had not been installed in the gent's because they had not had the same problems with drugs in there, due to slanted surfaces over the cistern and a more open entrance to the toilets from the bar.
"The men were going into the women's and in fact were selling drugs in there," she said.
"We tried everything. We had toilet monitors, but I'm the only woman working on Friday and Saturday nights, and you can't send men into the women's toilets.
"I feel safer going in there now. When we used to empty the sanitary bins in there, they'd be full of empty drugs plastic bags and there'd be drugs residue on the surface.
"I've seen none since we brought in the CCTV. I'm quite proud that we've managed to crack down on it."
But Simon Davies, director of Privacy International, said he was stunned at the move. "This is an intrusion into a private space," he said. "If the pub has a problem with drugs, they have to act within the law to combat it, and the law is very clear that there are very limited circumstances where such intrusion can take place.
"I can't understand why people would go to a pub where people are videoing them on the toilet. This is a gross invasion of people's privacy."
He said he had serious concerns about the CCTV falling foul of data protection legislation: "I would have thought anyone complaining to the Information Commissioner would receive a positive response."
But police licensing officer Mick Wilkinson said Mrs Green had assured him she was operating within the guidelines set down by the Information Commissioner.
"She's a very responsible licensee and I'm fully supportive of any such crime prevention methods," he said.
Women felt uncomfortable'
VICTORIA Frame, 34, of Rawcliffe, and Deborah Styles, 36, of Lawrence Street, visited the Rose & Crown on Saturday with their boyfriends to watch the Grand National.
They were shocked to see the CCTV system in the ladies' toilets. "It made me feel uncomfortable," Deborah said. "I think it's absolutely bang out of order - I definitely wouldn't go back."
Victoria said: "I couldn't believe it when I saw them. I was a bit shocked by it. My boyfriend asked them why they don't just take the shelf out or put a slope on it."
Have your say
Do you think the pub is right to install cameras in its toilets?
Your Say YourPress
DAM528, Malton says...
11:49pm Wed 9 Apr 08
like to add a little more to this debate.
I notice that there are two cameras on the ceiling yet we only see one camera angle, so
where is the other one pointing.
Also why is your camera in your living room
but not behind the bar.
Has your husband been veted as a school teacher
might or anyone else in authority to check that
he isn't some sort of pervert.
How can you guarentee that there aren't other
cameras installed pointing at different angles.
Did you know by inviting people to look at what
the camera is showing is against the law.
Also haven't you realised your video simply
makes you look irresponsible and unable to manage what can only be described as a poxy run down back street pub.
DAM528, Malton says...
2:56pm Wed 9 Apr 08
Sari wrote:No but once again you dont see it do you.
Brian wrote: A much better solution would be to employ security to get the druggies out,otherwise sarah you will find they will be your only customers ,listen to the feedback your customers dont want this.As far as I can tell the majority of these people commenting and sharing their opinion on this issue aren't even customers of The Rose & Crown. If people actually came and spoke to the actual customers of the pub you'd find a very different opinion. To all the people that have supported the move - Thank you on behalf of the Rose & Crown and ALL it's customers.
I dont live anywhere near the Rose and Crown but I would ,and so would many people I know be unhappy if this were to happen at my local.
Obviously you aren't interested what the majority on here have to say but were just after cheap publicty through the media.
I would love to hear you explain why you seem to be the only pub that has to resort to such measures.
Speaks volumes really.
Sari, York says...
1:44pm Wed 9 Apr 08
Brian wrote:As far as I can tell the majority of these people commenting and sharing their opinion on this issue aren't even customers of The Rose & Crown. If people actually came and spoke to the actual customers of the pub you'd find a very different opinion.
A much better solution would be to employ security to get the druggies out,otherwise sarah you will find they will be your only customers ,listen to the feedback your customers dont want this.
To all the people that have supported the move - Thank you on behalf of the Rose & Crown and ALL it's customers.
akuma, everywhere says...
9:47am Wed 9 Apr 08
Try and run your own pub and see how difficult it is dealing with intimidation by drug dealers
I always feel sorry for the next poor sap that takes over the lease at the Fossway.
They always put REAL effort into turning it around, but in the end it ends up being the same chavs and drug dealers that take it over.
Its a real shame.
KarenWhite1978, Heslington says...
8:32am Wed 9 Apr 08
<<Deborah said. "I think it's absolutely bang out of order - I definitely wouldn't go back.">>
UncleFester, York says...
2:45am Wed 9 Apr 08
mivvi, near York says...
2:03am Wed 9 Apr 08
franky, york says...
1:41am Wed 9 Apr 08
If you want to do drugs, do it at home before you go out, instead of in a public toilet inconveniencing others.
Dave McBridge, York says...
10:34pm Tue 8 Apr 08
There's a legal minefield here - i think the situation needs to be assessed by a law firm before anyone jumps to any conclusions about it's legality - obviously the pub owner says the cameras are staying but i expect there will have to be a few changes in order to comply with privacy laws.
If they stay, there are many blurred lines regarding privacy, voyeurism, and the relationship between a business and it's customers.
my opinion, york says...
9:56pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Gardener, York says...
9:27pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Brian, york says...
7:16pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Old Spice, York says...
6:38pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Katherine Mondavi, Nether Poppleton says...
5:52pm Tue 8 Apr 08
We only have their word for it that the camera cannot see the person using the toilet.
rodneysdog, york says...
5:29pm Tue 8 Apr 08
rodneysdog, york says...
5:28pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Captain Jack Sparrow, Strensall says...
4:48pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Alex wrote:What a great name that is, 'Glory hole'!
In cubicles on Hampstead Heath, they don't just peer over the sides, there's usually a "glory hole".... which might be the answer.
Where's that on a golf course then? :-)
It would be a good name for a theme bar in York.
Alex, York says...
4:41pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Alex, York says...
4:38pm Tue 8 Apr 08
platform 9, york says...
4:13pm Tue 8 Apr 08
pacman wrote:Yeah right!, like they keep an eye on the streets around Aldwark and the area around the taxi rank opposite The Terrace (no implication to the taxi-drivers or the pub meant there btw). It's been rife around that area for years and the police know about it!
So no footage of people crimping one out then? Seriously, if there is a drug problem in the R & C, then the boys in blue should be watching the place. I bet they will be now.
RodneyRowe, York says...
4:06pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Or maybe just hang around outside the R&C toilets for a while instead.
Angry and Frustrated, York says...
3:51pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Sari wrote:I know it's difficult because you apparently work there, but the video is irrelevant. I couldn't care that all the video will show is the top of a toilet cistern or whatever it shows - it's the PRINCIPLE.
Have any of you actually watched the video for the article? Have you actually seen the "issue" you're discussing? I'm sure if you all took a look and actually saw what the cameras do and don't show, you'd be pleasantly surprised. Oh, I did have a giggle at "crack down", that was pretty funny. Good catch.
Toilets = private places = camera no go area.
Once one pub does it, other pubs will join in using your pub as the example. There will be pervs who will eventually alter camera angles etc for their own gratification.
The R & C use drugs as their excuse. How long before Dorothy Perkins or Burtons use shop lifting as an excuse? Where does it end?
What also horrifies me is the shocking deriliction of duty shown by the R & C staff and management. Instead of throwing these people out on the basis that they are breaking the law and showing anti-social behaviour, all they are doing is trying to stop them from actively taking drugs on the premises. If you attract the sort of people that feel the urge to snort a line off the back of a toilet, it's not a good advert for the pub.
Captain Jack Sparrow, Strensall says...
3:43pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Apparently in cubicles in the public toilets on Hampstead Heath, you often get men peering over the sides looking in.
trotsky77, York says...
3:38pm Tue 8 Apr 08
very petty
pacman, In the Privy says...
3:30pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Seriously, if there is a drug problem in the R & C, then the boys in blue should be watching the place. I bet they will be now.
DAM528, Malton says...
3:25pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Sari wrote:That is not the point though IMO, and I'm still not convinced this is the right way to to tackle the problem...I think if this was allowed to happen in every pub then the system is open to abuse. Who for instance is going to monitor and check that every single camera
Have any of you actually watched the video for the article? Have you actually seen the "issue" you're discussing? I'm sure if you all took a look and actually saw what the cameras do and don't show, you'd be pleasantly surprised. Oh, I did have a giggle at "crack down", that was pretty funny. Good catch.
in every pub is actualy pointing where they say
it is. And how can every landlord be trusted to use them apropriately..I still say this is an invasion of privacy.
Sambo, York says...
3:18pm Tue 8 Apr 08
....So if they purchased a drink would it be ok then??
I don't think any bars in town have fitted cameras in toilets and obviously there would be a bigger drug problem there. Hairspray over the toilet seats gives any would be snorter a nose bleed - you then throw them out and they'd soon get the message!!
Sari, York says...
3:03pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Oh, I did have a giggle at "crack down", that was pretty funny. Good catch.
Alex, York says...
2:49pm Tue 8 Apr 08
akuma, everywhere says...
2:49pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Angry and Frustrated wrote:What really are the finest boys in blue going to do about it though.
RodneyRowe wrote: Massive drug problem in the R&C, Its well known for it. Its basically become the dive of Lawrence Street since the aussies left. R&C does not mean the Rose & Crown anymore everyone is calling it the Roc* and Cocain*.If that's the case, then the management of this illustrious establishment should be calling in the police and not invading the privacy of the general public.
I used to defend the poilce, I know they do a hard job. My mate is a copper.
But over the last 6 months, who ever makes NYP policy is living in dream world.
Your right in one aspect, they never should have let the hardcore 20 back in. It was doomed the day they let the stripy jumped smack rats back in the place.
Surely the Aussies must have given the new owners a heads up of the trouble makers before they left???
Paul G, york says...
2:49pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Alex, York says...
2:48pm Tue 8 Apr 08
tina, york, uk says...
2:43pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Jo, York says...
2:39pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Not only can private companies bar you from using their premises without giving a reason but they can also spy on you when you're taking a cr@p, it seems.
Angry and Frustrated, York says...
2:32pm Tue 8 Apr 08
RodneyRowe wrote:If that's the case, then the management of this illustrious establishment should be calling in the police and not invading the privacy of the general public.
Massive drug problem in the R&C, Its well known for it. Its basically become the dive of Lawrence Street since the aussies left. R&C does not mean the Rose & Crown anymore everyone is calling it the Roc* and Cocain*.
RodneyRowe, York says...
2:28pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Sari, York says...
1:49pm Tue 8 Apr 08
.co.uk/audiovideo/vi
deo/index.var.25162.
0.0.php - check it out.
catty, york says...
1:42pm Tue 8 Apr 08
DAM528, Malton says...
1:37pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Angry and Frustrated wrote:Yes I couldn't agree
I despair! When will intrusion into people's every day activities cease? We are already the most monitored nation in the western world due to the incredibly high number of CCTV cameras everywhere - and now in the toilets?? When will it end? The fact that you may or not be able to see someone on the loo is irrelevant - there was a day when a toilet was a private place. Camera positions can be manipulated so any perv that may work there in the future can have a good eyeful - and don't think it won't happen, because sooner or later it will, if not to this pub, another that follows it lead. To me, this just shows the short comings of the management of this pub - I have worked in and out of the pub industry for many years and lets make no mistake here - the staff will know who the druggies are so it is pure laziness that the managment do nothing about it. If undesirables come in the back door - KEEP IT LOCKED!!! It is easy to have a bell that the locals can use to be "buzzed" in. What next? Cameras in changing rooms?
more with you. I think
this is an intrusion
of privacy two.
I note the Landlord is
reffered to as a
responsible lincencee.
But if this sortof thing s allowed by law
then how long before
these camera end up
in pubs where the staff aren't so responsible.
Ovbiousley if they
cant control the situation without resorting to these sort of measures I suggest that they look another career.
I woner how long these
cameras will stay intact, now that so much attention has been brought to them
misskittie, York says...
1:33pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Failing that, wipe the seat and snort off that, the cameras can't see you down there apparently....
Plaggy Terry, Classic Cnuts says...
1:31pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Philip Taylor, Leeds says...
1:26pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Priceless! No pun intended I am sure.
Isn't that what people might be concerned about?
Giles, York says...
1:18pm Tue 8 Apr 08
They also need those cameras in other places. On a few occasions I have seen people openly taking drugs in York when i go to the toilets. (specifically when I visited Voddy Rev and Orgasmic) - especially race days and weekends.
franky, york says...
12:50pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Being a regular in the R&C it has defo gone down hill since the Aussies left.
They never had this problem before, I recon the problem is when the Aussies were there all the trouble causers and idiots from Tang Hall were barred.
it used to be a great place with superb pub grub when the aussie had it...gone down hill since.
Yep, it was a good place back then. Sounds like it's not worth a visit now, unless these cameras force the undesirables back out.
Sari, York says...
12:50pm Tue 8 Apr 08
my opinion wrote:Yes, I work at the pub and drink in the pub.
whats your interest in the place are you a worker?
Chumpy69, York says...
12:48pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Angry and Frustrated wrote:very well put!
I despair! When will intrusion into people's every day activities cease? We are already the most monitored nation in the western world due to the incredibly high number of CCTV cameras everywhere - and now in the toilets?? When will it end? The fact that you may or not be able to see someone on the loo is irrelevant - there was a day when a toilet was a private place. Camera positions can be manipulated so any perv that may work there in the future can have a good eyeful - and don't think it won't happen, because sooner or later it will, if not to this pub, another that follows it lead. To me, this just shows the short comings of the management of this pub - I have worked in and out of the pub industry for many years and lets make no mistake here - the staff will know who the druggies are so it is pure laziness that the managment do nothing about it. If undesirables come in the back door - KEEP IT LOCKED!!! It is easy to have a bell that the locals can use to be "buzzed" in. What next? Cameras in changing rooms?
i await sari's responce.
my opinion, york says...
12:47pm Tue 8 Apr 08
lock the door put a sign up saying the key is available at the bar
possibly give a key to the regulars, if there are any?
my opinion, york says...
12:42pm Tue 8 Apr 08
TooRad, york says...
12:41pm Tue 8 Apr 08
I can't believe people are saying they feel safer being perved by cctv in the toilet than having the odd numpty snorting rubbish up their nose.
Is there no depth they won't sink to in order to perpetuate the fake "war on drugs"?
Angry and Frustrated, York says...
12:33pm Tue 8 Apr 08
To me, this just shows the short comings of the management of this pub - I have worked in and out of the pub industry for many years and lets make no mistake here - the staff will know who the druggies are so it is pure laziness that the managment do nothing about it. If undesirables come in the back door - KEEP IT LOCKED!!! It is easy to have a bell that the locals can use to be "buzzed" in.
What next? Cameras in changing rooms?
tricky ricky, malton says...
12:30pm Tue 8 Apr 08
akuma wrote:ooh wait, do you have a really nice car or something? Strange you never mentioned that before.
Being a regular in the R&C it has defo gone down hill since the Aussies left. They never had this problem before, I recon the problem is when the Aussies were there all the trouble causers and idiots from Tang Hall were barred. I noticed the day the lease changed hands they were all back in and surprise, surprise now they have a drug issue... All they need to do is ban a hardocre 20 of them and things will sort themselves out just like it was when the Aussies were there. Also the jealous tang hallers might stopp boxing my car in with there crappy chavilers as well.
my opinion, york says...
12:30pm Tue 8 Apr 08
my opinion wrote:that was to sari
whats your interest in the place are you a worker?
my opinion, york says...
12:29pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Dave McBridge, York says...
12:27pm Tue 8 Apr 08
There are some serious privacy issues here - who is watching the cctv? How do people know the cameras aren't filming them on the toilet? (presuming not every visitor reads the press!) Why can't the cistern be enclosed with a slanted top?
Westminster have CCTV in toilet areas to combat drug abuse but they have monitors which show the public that their privacy is not being invaded, and only the sink area is being watched. There are monitors outside the entrance to the toilets in certain areas to deter drug users from entering the premises.
If there's not enough staff to patrol the toilets then how can there be enough to watch CCTV footage??
And surely most women would be uncomfortable if a male member of staff could see inside the ladies toilets on camera?
Maybe some of these issues have been addressed already and i take them back if they have, but surveillance is going too far in this country and the system is open to too much abuse.
Chumpy69, York says...
12:27pm Tue 8 Apr 08
it used to be a great place with superb pub grub when the aussie had it...gone down hill since.
dont care if you cannot be seen, this is way out of order and a step too far!
Sari, York says...
12:20pm Tue 8 Apr 08
The Crack Fox, Coming at you, like a razor says...
12:18pm Tue 8 Apr 08
AdmiralN, York Centre says...
12:07pm Tue 8 Apr 08
There is no "shelf" in the toilets, it's the cistern of the toilet itself and that can't be removed nor altered.
Not strictly true! it can be moved, or altered.
my opinion, york says...
12:05pm Tue 8 Apr 08
Sari wrote:I dont care ,its going too far
You can't actually see the toilets on the camera and the people that comment on here have yet to actually see footage, nor been in the toilets in the Rose & Crown. Unless you're over 7ft tall your privacy is not affected. I for one feel safer using a toilet where no drugs are used and no men come into the toilets. In the month that the Rose & Crown has had the cameras, there has been no issue with bad behaviour in the toilets. Maybe people should go and check it out before making a decision. There is no "shelf" in the toilets, it's the cistern of the toilet itself and that can't be removed nor altered. I am proud of the Zero Tolerance in the Rose and Crown.
of course it could be altered ,why didnt they just get some wall hung toilets installed (the cistern is hidden then), not cheap but better than cameras
Sari, York says...
12:03pm Tue 8 Apr 08
drs1706 wrote:That's a really good idea.
Why dont they put up a little monitor in the toilets showing the users exactly what is being recorded?
Fi, Fulford says...
11:59am Tue 8 Apr 08
akuma, everywhere says...
11:55am Tue 8 Apr 08
They never had this problem before, I recon the problem is when the Aussies were there all the trouble causers and idiots from Tang Hall were barred.
I noticed the day the lease changed hands they were all back in and surprise, surprise now they have a drug issue...
All they need to do is ban a hardocre 20 of them and things will sort themselves out just like it was when the Aussies were there.
Also the jealous tang hallers might stopp boxing my car in with there crappy chavilers as well.
Tom, York says...
11:54am Tue 8 Apr 08
drs1706, York says...
11:52am Tue 8 Apr 08
Sari, York says...
11:45am Tue 8 Apr 08
franky, york says...
11:42am Tue 8 Apr 08
Dave McBridge, York says...
10:45am Tue 15 Apr 08