Big bus changes in York (From York Press)

Are they going to introduce yet more buses on Park & Ride routes to ensure even less passengers per bus during working hours?

How the **** do yo increase frequency and punctuality by removing one of the 2 buses per hour on the 12/13 route. As usual, cater for the tourists and pensioners. Sod the workers who need to be in 9-5. Which genius came up with this **** blinder.

This article only communicates the negative aspects. There are some positive changes too. Statement from First below

You may be aware that First is planning to
carry out a number of changes to many of its
bus services in York this weekend.
We are making these changes to ensure that
we can deliver a more sustainable, reliable bus
service in York. The changes will improve
punctuality and provide a better network for
the majority of our customers in York.
We have added extra buses to our York fleet
to allow us to deal with congestion and
run more reliably across the city.
We have increased the frequency on some key
routes, including 4, and have added a new
service 14 that will run from Acomb Green
Lane to York, via Poppleton Road, to the new York Sport Village.
We have listened to our customers’ feedback
and worked with City of York Council to
introduce a new Service 15 serving South Bank.
We are committed to working with our local
communities and to continually improve our
service across York. We
pledge to consult with our customers to further
improve services.
We have also recently introduced some new
fares in York, including weekend and group
tickets and we are currently exploring other
opportunities to improve value for money.
For full details on the service changes please
visit our website at www.firstgroup.com/y
ork,
call 01904 551400
or visit the new bus information desk at York railway station.
We want to hear your views on our service,
so please contact us at
www.firstgroup.com or call us on
0845 604 5460.

'We are committed to working with our local
communities and to continually improve our
service across York'

Obviously this doesn't include Copmanthorpe, where services have been cut to one an hour. Yet Acomb, where Energise is situated, gets a bus service to the new sports centre.

Disgusting - How can you just "drop" the 13a service to Copmanthorpe. Oh. I know, no members of the council live there !! unlike Poppleton !!!

Or if they do they have not represented their local villagers.

Bout time YC dumped First.

Come on Simon Bus tell us Copmanthorpe residents what "improvements" we have to our service !!!

livewithit wrote:
Come on Simon Bus tell us Copmanthorpe residents what "improvements" we have to our service !!!

Granted, the changes have been introduced to better serve those places where demand is highest. Copmanthorpe is one of the few places to have a reduced service from First but overall in York the number of services have increased.

my daughter lives in leicester and my son used to live in manchester and my daughter in law comes from sheffield so we have had first hand experience of several other public transport networks and York in comparison has a woefully inadequate slow and fragmented bus service.
it would take my daughter over an hour on the bus to get from Huntington to York college,and one simple delay along the route would make her late as the only bus she can get locally leaves at 0755 and gets to York college just around 9am,
A similar route length etc in sheffiled would be cheaper and take just 35 mins whilst in leicester and manchester their metro networks do a similar 5-10 min service at peak times and take just 20-25 mins for a similar route.
I have little option but to take my daughter to and from college myself along the a64 from huntington to askham bar takes just 10 mins.
And now we are condensing bus routes and cutting some services altogether which seems to be a way of using less buses but more standing room.
So much for deregulation,its the same with the trains,

only human wrote:
my daughter lives in leicester and my son used to live in manchester and my daughter in law comes from sheffield so we have had first hand experience of several other public transport networks and York in comparison has a woefully inadequate slow and fragmented bus service.
it would take my daughter over an hour on the bus to get from Huntington to York college,and one simple delay along the route would make her late as the only bus she can get locally leaves at 0755 and gets to York college just around 9am,
A similar route length etc in sheffiled would be cheaper and take just 35 mins whilst in leicester and manchester their metro networks do a similar 5-10 min service at peak times and take just 20-25 mins for a similar route.
I have little option but to take my daughter to and from college myself along the a64 from huntington to askham bar takes just 10 mins.
And now we are condensing bus routes and cutting some services altogether which seems to be a way of using less buses but more standing room.
So much for deregulation,its the same with the trains,

First run buses in each of Leicester, Manchester and Sheffield none of which are medieval cities with the associated road infrastructure. Tackling city centre congestion and improving bus priority measures is the key to improving the speed of public transport in York. If average speeds increase buses would be redeployed to offer better frequencies across the network.

As they are taking off one bus in every hour I will have to go back to using my car. I thought they wanted to encourage us to use public transport. It certainly is NOT an improvement for us Copmanthorpe residents.

Well where to start with this...the bus 'service' which is provided by first on the number 11 bus has been an absolute farce for a long time. People like myself rely on this bus being vaguely on time to get to and from work. Buses get cut out without notice, sometimes turn up 45 minutes late, and there are supposed to be 2 an hour but the timing of them means you cannot get anywhere in town unless you leave at least an hour to get there. Someone I work with commutes to York from Leeds and it takes her less time to get to work than it takes me on th number 11 from Bishopthorpe. Ridiculous

emishka wrote:
Well where to start with this...the bus 'service' which is provided by first on the number 11 bus has been an absolute farce for a long time. People like myself rely on this bus being vaguely on time to get to and from work. Buses get cut out without notice, sometimes turn up 45 minutes late, and there are supposed to be 2 an hour but the timing of them means you cannot get anywhere in town unless you leave at least an hour to get there. Someone I work with commutes to York from Leeds and it takes her less time to get to work than it takes me on th number 11 from Bishopthorpe. Ridiculous

The revised number 11 bus will no longer go through South Bank so will see a significant improvement in its punctuality as it now has more time to adhere to its route. You're right that performance has not been good enough on that service, caused primarily by congestion in the city centre and First has to take action to remedy that.

Residents in South Bank will be served by a new 15 service that will run every half hour to York City Centre. Number 11 should be a big beneficiary of the changes, although some gas works are unfortunately starting next week on Bishopthorpe Road.

Customers with smart phones can access real time running information at the link below by entering a postcode or stop number.

http://wypte.acisliv
e.com/

SimonBus wrote:

livewithit wrote:
Come on Simon Bus tell us Copmanthorpe residents what "improvements" we have to our service !!!

Granted, the changes have been introduced to better serve those places where demand is highest. Copmanthorpe is one of the few places to have a reduced service from First but overall in York the number of services have increased.

Just shy of 1900 properties in Copmanthorpe. They was always a demand, but the service was not run very well, buses that rattled themselves to bits, stupidly late or on occasions just removed altogether. Then we get a bus an hour.
Us tax and council taxpayers are constantly told to help save the environment and use public transport and cycle. I have never heard so much rot in my life; this is a joke like the so-called transport policy for York.
I hope next year for a reduction in my council tax because obviously, because of where I live, I cannot get a reliable, frequent bus into York. Long live the car, as this is the only reliable mode of transport for multiple occupancy .

3 buses per hour on the number 11 would make sense both for all the residents in Bishopthorpe, and for first buses too, as people would actually use the service instead of driving. And if you look at the number of complaints regarding the service, you will see how poor it is, then multiply by 100 for all the complaints people didn't bother reporting because the service from the complaints phone line is also just one big fobbing off pantomime.

Copmanthorpe does have a reduced frequency from First but it is served regularly by other operators as well through the main road and the new All York ticket allows more flexibility.

Commercial bus services are not subsidised by the taxpayer so need to remain viable.

emishka wrote:
3 buses per hour on the number 11 would make sense both for all the residents in Bishopthorpe, and for first buses too, as people would actually use the service instead of driving. And if you look at the number of complaints regarding the service, you will see how poor it is, then multiply by 100 for all the complaints people didn't bother reporting because the service from the complaints phone line is also just one big fobbing off pantomime.

It would be great to run 3 buses per hour, but to put that in perspective it would require at least half as many passengers again. Let's get the service running reliably, attract some growth and go from there.

First is also looking at how it improves its complaint handling process

SimonBus wrote:
Copmanthorpe does have a reduced frequency from First but it is served regularly by other operators as well through the main road and the new All York ticket allows more flexibility.

Commercial bus services are not subsidised by the taxpayer so need to remain viable.

Correct, Yorkshire Coastliner, and they to have reduced there service to the village, an example is by passing the village altogether from Tadcaster Road to Tadcaster. You should already know this, so without falling out, stop playing silly games to try and justify First’s actions. What is the last bus from York centre to Copmanthorpe on a night? Pathetic excuses of a pathetic service.

@simonbus, as much as I respect your words of reassurance and positive views on the subject, I have lived in this village since 2002, and if anything the bus service has got worse over this period. I don't drive, and can't get home after finishing work at half past five every day during the week to pick my kids up on time at 6 pm from childcare because the bus service won't allow for that. When it affects people daily, and interferes with their lives on a daily basis, I think you would understand the people on here leaving negative comments. Come and stand with me every morning at 8 waiting for the bus, then at 5.30 after a day at work, just wanting to get back and pick up the kids and go home, and see the delays and disruptions then you can defend the service all you like.

emishka wrote:
@simonbus, as much as I respect your words of reassurance and positive views on the subject, I have lived in this village since 2002, and if anything the bus service has got worse over this period. I don't drive, and can't get home after finishing work at half past five every day during the week to pick my kids up on time at 6 pm from childcare because the bus service won't allow for that. When it affects people daily, and interferes with their lives on a daily basis, I think you would understand the people on here leaving negative comments. Come and stand with me every morning at 8 waiting for the bus, then at 5.30 after a day at work, just wanting to get back and pick up the kids and go home, and see the delays and disruptions then you can defend the service all you like.

I am being positive but in previous comments here have admitted that the service isn't reliable enough at the moment and fully understand the negative comments. That's why it's been changed and the difficult decision has been taken to remove the South Bank loop. It will improve and if it doesn't improve enough it will get reviewed again until it does.

'Copmanthorpe is one of the few places to have a reduced service from First but overall in York the number of services have increased.”'
Is that supposed to make Copmanthorpe residents feel better?!!! Telling us that you're increasing services in well served areas like Acomb (which are in reasonable walking distance of town for the average person), just makes it worse!

i dont think that i ve ever encountered such a badly run and organised bus service as that in york.we are put to shame by greatly superior services both in the uk and abroad.considering the financial problems they are encountering the spaniards manage to run an exceptional public transport system which makes ours look decidedly amateurish.

I can't believe First are changing their services yet again! They seem to amend their services every year! It's not fair on people who rely on the bus to get to work to amend routes. One question I do have, why has First changed the route numbers of the 12 that did go to Haxby to the 13. This is only going to confuse people and add to delays and passenger frustration. York is relatively a small city so why so many changes?! This goes to show that we (York) need more bus companies in the city as First is the dominant supplier which is causing more disruption than good.

MrStrensall wrote:
I can't believe First are changing their services yet again! They seem to amend their services every year! It's not fair on people who rely on the bus to get to work to amend routes. One question I do have, why has First changed the route numbers of the 12 that did go to Haxby to the 13. This is only going to confuse people and add to delays and passenger frustration. York is relatively a small city so why so many changes?! This goes to show that we (York) need more bus companies in the city as First is the dominant supplier which is causing more disruption than good.

The existing service to both Copmanthorpe (13) and West Nooks (12) has been reduced from hourly to half hourly. Both are cross city services with the other side of each remaining at half hourly. It's therefore necessary to link together the two places with a half hourly service, which requires a number change for West Nooks and Haxby

Simonbus, if First have a point to make or wish to defend their very poor service, why don't they actually do it rather than pretending to be a commenter. You are nothing more than an annoying corporate shill. Please just stop commenting.

I think itll keep all the taxi drivers happy.

So anyone who works at the University during the holidays and relies on the bus is basically s#####ed.

The lousy service to Monks Cross gets even worse.

In ten years, we'll have a single bus going round in circles, waiting for passengers who aren't there, and the council's transport plan will be trying to manage the 10 mile traffic jam of cars that's locked up the city centre.

first dont care about passengers

Bad magic wrote:
Simonbus, if First have a point to make or wish to defend their very poor service, why don't they actually do it rather than pretending to be a commenter. You are nothing more than an annoying corporate shill. Please just stop commenting.

Apologies, I'm not pretending to be a commenter. I work for First and added our statement to this thread to provide balance to an article that focussed primarily on the negative aspects of the changes.

And I've commented where appropriate when other issues have been raised.

SimonBus wrote:

Bad magic wrote:
Simonbus, if First have a point to make or wish to defend their very poor service, why don't they actually do it rather than pretending to be a commenter. You are nothing more than an annoying corporate shill. Please just stop commenting.

Apologies, I'm not pretending to be a commenter. I work for First and added our statement to this thread to provide balance to an article that focussed primarily on the negative aspects of the changes.

And I've commented where appropriate when other issues have been raised.

So you'll be picking up that no-one likes First....

Another company that seems to have the the price of everything, the value of nothing as its working practice.

York might have smaller streets in the town centre, but there are plenty of bus lanes and the council happily remodels roads for you to get those monsterous bendy things around!

If you charged a decent fare and ran a decent service, we'd actually use your buses! It costs more to buy a family ticket for a bus into town than it does to park for several hours. Go figure....

SimonBus states;12.03

"The existing service to both Copmanthorpe (13) and West Nooks (12) has been "reduced from hourly to half hourly". Both are cross city services with the other side of each remaining at half hourly. It's therefore necessary to link together the two places with a half hourly service, which requires a number change for West Nooks and Haxby."

Total gobbledygook from someone who represents First Bus !

SimonBus wrote:

MrStrensall wrote:
I can't believe First are changing their services yet again! They seem to amend their services every year! It's not fair on people who rely on the bus to get to work to amend routes. One question I do have, why has First changed the route numbers of the 12 that did go to Haxby to the 13. This is only going to confuse people and add to delays and passenger frustration. York is relatively a small city so why so many changes?! This goes to show that we (York) need more bus companies in the city as First is the dominant supplier which is causing more disruption than good.

The existing service to both Copmanthorpe (13) and West Nooks (12) has been reduced from hourly to half hourly. Both are cross city services with the other side of each remaining at half hourly. It's therefore necessary to link together the two places with a half hourly service, which requires a number change for West Nooks and Haxby

i live in new earswick and the no 12 is the only bus that used to turn up on time (until the last changes) now we are loosing it and will have to rely on a reduced service 13 or the no1 service which may or may not turn up (yes i work nights and many times they have missed busses out ) oh well back to the car or pushbike

missing hamster wrote:
'We are committed to working with our local
communities and to continually improve our
service across York'

Obviously this doesn't include Copmanthorpe, where services have been cut to one an hour. Yet Acomb, where Energise is situated, gets a bus service to the new sports centre.

you have a 15 minute service by transdev ( coastliner ) in copmanthorpe

only human wrote:
my daughter lives in leicester and my son used to live in manchester and my daughter in law comes from sheffield so we have had first hand experience of several other public transport networks and York in comparison has a woefully inadequate slow and fragmented bus service.
it would take my daughter over an hour on the bus to get from Huntington to York college,and one simple delay along the route would make her late as the only bus she can get locally leaves at 0755 and gets to York college just around 9am,
A similar route length etc in sheffiled would be cheaper and take just 35 mins whilst in leicester and manchester their metro networks do a similar 5-10 min service at peak times and take just 20-25 mins for a similar route.
I have little option but to take my daughter to and from college myself along the a64 from huntington to askham bar takes just 10 mins.
And now we are condensing bus routes and cutting some services altogether which seems to be a way of using less buses but more standing room.
So much for deregulation,its the same with the trains,

funny that, because FIRST operate services in leicester, sheffield and manchester, also do you think it could be because unlike medieval york those citys are bigger with bigger roads and so have bus lanes on all roads leading into the city centre?

emishka wrote:
Well where to start with this...the bus 'service' which is provided by first on the number 11 bus has been an absolute farce for a long time. People like myself rely on this bus being vaguely on time to get to and from work. Buses get cut out without notice, sometimes turn up 45 minutes late, and there are supposed to be 2 an hour but the timing of them means you cannot get anywhere in town unless you leave at least an hour to get there. Someone I work with commutes to York from Leeds and it takes her less time to get to work than it takes me on th number 11 from Bishopthorpe. Ridiculous

read the report, does it not say changes are being made to improve reliabilty? and it takes well over an hour from leeds city bus station to york city centre ive never been on an 11 thats taken that long, oh i did once actually when it snowed and traffic was backed up to law college?

yorkborn66 wrote:

SimonBus wrote:

livewithit wrote:
Come on Simon Bus tell us Copmanthorpe residents what "improvements" we have to our service !!!

Granted, the changes have been introduced to better serve those places where demand is highest. Copmanthorpe is one of the few places to have a reduced service from First but overall in York the number of services have increased.

Just shy of 1900 properties in Copmanthorpe. They was always a demand, but the service was not run very well, buses that rattled themselves to bits, stupidly late or on occasions just removed altogether. Then we get a bus an hour.
Us tax and council taxpayers are constantly told to help save the environment and use public transport and cycle. I have never heard so much rot in my life; this is a joke like the so-called transport policy for York.
I hope next year for a reduction in my council tax because obviously, because of where I live, I cannot get a reliable, frequent bus into York. Long live the car, as this is the only reliable mode of transport for multiple occupancy .

TRANSDEV, although i do acknowlege you will have to WALK to main road, walk a bit eh? perish the thought

roskoboskovic wrote:
i dont think that i ve ever encountered such a badly run and organised bus service as that in york.we are put to shame by greatly superior services both in the uk and abroad.considering the financial problems they are encountering the spaniards manage to run an exceptional public transport system which makes ours look decidedly amateurish.

i lived in spain a number of years, and spain like most europeans subsidise public transport heavily, hence low fares and plenty of buses, this government as seen fit to reduce subsidies to all bus companys in the country, and lower the amount paid to them for oap passes, in other words the government dont give a toss about mere mortals like you and me who rely on buses, so you know which way to vote next time

MrStrensall wrote:
I can't believe First are changing their services yet again! They seem to amend their services every year! It's not fair on people who rely on the bus to get to work to amend routes. One question I do have, why has First changed the route numbers of the 12 that did go to Haxby to the 13. This is only going to confuse people and add to delays and passenger frustration. York is relatively a small city so why so many changes?! This goes to show that we (York) need more bus companies in the city as First is the dominant supplier which is causing more disruption than good.

other bus companys are not interested in coming to york, there are not enough people living here to make it worthwhile, even pullman gave up because it wasnt worth it

TERRIER3 wrote:

yorkborn66 wrote:

SimonBus wrote:

livewithit wrote:
Come on Simon Bus tell us Copmanthorpe residents what "improvements" we have to our service !!!

Granted, the changes have been introduced to better serve those places where demand is highest. Copmanthorpe is one of the few places to have a reduced service from First but overall in York the number of services have increased.

Just shy of 1900 properties in Copmanthorpe. They was always a demand, but the service was not run very well, buses that rattled themselves to bits, stupidly late or on occasions just removed altogether. Then we get a bus an hour.
Us tax and council taxpayers are constantly told to help save the environment and use public transport and cycle. I have never heard so much rot in my life; this is a joke like the so-called transport policy for York.
I hope next year for a reduction in my council tax because obviously, because of where I live, I cannot get a reliable, frequent bus into York. Long live the car, as this is the only reliable mode of transport for multiple occupancy .

TRANSDEV, although i do acknowlege you will have to WALK to main road, walk a bit eh? perish the thought

I think you will find that from 9.15am until 5.30pm it is half hourly

TERRIER3 wrote:

MrStrensall wrote:
I can't believe First are changing their services yet again! They seem to amend their services every year! It's not fair on people who rely on the bus to get to work to amend routes. One question I do have, why has First changed the route numbers of the 12 that did go to Haxby to the 13. This is only going to confuse people and add to delays and passenger frustration. York is relatively a small city so why so many changes?! This goes to show that we (York) need more bus companies in the city as First is the dominant supplier which is causing more disruption than good.

other bus companys are not interested in coming to york, there are not enough people living here to make it worthwhile, even pullman gave up because it wasnt worth it

Funny I thought Pullman SOLD OUT to Transdev!!

livewithit wrote:
Disgusting - How can you just "drop" the 13a service to Copmanthorpe. Oh. I know, no members of the council live there !! unlike Poppleton !!! Or if they do they have not represented their local villagers. Bout time YC dumped First.

Do yoiu really think that Conservative Councillor Ian Gillies has any influence on transport policies ?

Merrett will do all he can to deprive York residents, if it needles tories, just like he uses housing policy to score points by stopping housing from being built, so he can blame the government.

Merrett puts the labour party before the interests of York and it's people. He is an utter disgrace.

I never cease to be amazed by those people who comment on here and who think that the City Council runs the buses in York. They haven't done that since 1934 - they might have had a theoretical stake until 1986 but the bus company made the decisions. Well done to Simonbus (Simon Pearson?) for at least trying to answer some of the comments, but don't expect any thanks. Something is bound to go wrong (for goodness' sake, make sure that any double deckers on route 4 don't go on to service 5), but at least you're doing something. One more word of advice - learn from history. Long, complicated routes end up being unreliable. The 2001 changes worked well for a long time. Good luck - you'll need it.

To truly make a reliable service in and out of york then cars need to stop entering the city full stop. That's what is causing delays and tailbacks. The only way to make this happen is to make york like London and introduce congestion charges.Lets be honest none of us want that, in my eyes id rather wait a couple extra mins than end up paying to enter the city.

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

livewithit wrote: Disgusting - How can you just "drop" the 13a service to Copmanthorpe. Oh. I know, no members of the council live there !! unlike Poppleton !!! Or if they do they have not represented their local villagers. Bout time YC dumped First.

Do yoiu really think that Conservative Councillor Ian Gillies has any influence on transport policies ? Merrett will do all he can to deprive York residents, if it needles tories, just like he uses housing policy to score points by stopping housing from being built, so he can blame the government. Merrett puts the labour party before the interests of York and it's people. He is an utter disgrace.

Irrelevant, off-topic thread-hijack.

Yorkborn66 wrote:
Correct, Yorkshire Coastliner, and they to have reduced there service to the village, an example is by passing the village altogether from Tadcaster Road to Tadcaster. You should already know this, so without falling out, stop playing silly games to try and justify First’s actions. What is the last bus from York centre to Copmanthorpe on a night? Pathetic excuses of a pathetic service.”

I'm not quite sure what your gripe is here. Coastliner run a half-hourly service to Copmanthorpe during the day, and more frequently at peak times. There are more Coastliner buses from York to Companthorpe than there used to be, barring a brief period after they started the 844, but that was only a short-term anomaly. The last bus leaves York station at 2318, which is in line with other York routes (some are a few minutes later but others finish earlier), and later than buses to other towns nearby like Selby and Pocklington.

For anyone who wants to use it, the Transdev bus service to Copmanthorpe is absolutely fine. I suspect First have realised they can't compete with it, and most passengers who can walk up to the main road for the Coastliner are already doing so.

oldgoat wrote:
So anyone who works at the University during the holidays and relies on the bus is basically s#####ed.

Why? Transdev run a 10-minute frequency on the Unibus 44 all year round, and a half-hourly service on Coastliner 844 from Leeds and Copmanthorpe, not to mention that the First 4 will still be running every 15 minutes to the university during the holidays ... I would be delighted to have such a variety and choice of buses to work!

Dear SimonBus:-

1 bus an hour is a rubbish service = fact
running on the same minute as coastliner service is just bad planning - and has been raised with both services for over 1 year now = fact
Running your last buses back to yoirk as "not in service" when passengers could travel from Copmanthorpe to Blosson st is also rubbish service = fact

Respond to those in terms of as improved !!!

Stevie D

It is obvious that you have not tried to use the coastliner service from Copmanthorpe !!!

Too many free passes is costing us our services, every bus after 9am is full of freebies, these passes are totally abused. fact busses run late because after 9am the passengers can barely put 1 foot in front of the other, even mums with children and perfectly normal teenagers seem to have them, please make it half fare before we lose all our bus services

SimonBus wrote:

only human wrote: my daughter lives in leicester and my son used to live in manchester and my daughter in law comes from sheffield so we have had first hand experience of several other public transport networks and York in comparison has a woefully inadequate slow and fragmented bus service. it would take my daughter over an hour on the bus to get from Huntington to York college,and one simple delay along the route would make her late as the only bus she can get locally leaves at 0755 and gets to York college just around 9am, A similar route length etc in sheffiled would be cheaper and take just 35 mins whilst in leicester and manchester their metro networks do a similar 5-10 min service at peak times and take just 20-25 mins for a similar route. I have little option but to take my daughter to and from college myself along the a64 from huntington to askham bar takes just 10 mins. And now we are condensing bus routes and cutting some services altogether which seems to be a way of using less buses but more standing room. So much for deregulation,its the same with the trains,

First run buses in each of Leicester, Manchester and Sheffield none of which are medieval cities with the associated road infrastructure. Tackling city centre congestion and improving bus priority measures is the key to improving the speed of public transport in York. If average speeds increase buses would be redeployed to offer better frequencies across the network.

In fact, Leicester is a medieval city. So is Nottingham, where I lived, and made regular use of the bus service, for a good few years. I've also lived in Sheffield. The reality is that the roads used by buses in the centre of these (much bigger) cities are pretty similar to the ones in York along which buses actually run, and the volume of traffic is certainly no smaller. Yet I can assure you from personal experience that both of them had a far superior bus service to the one in York, where I can actually walk the three miles to work in the same amount of time it takes to do the journey by bus - and that has nothing to do with congestion, I'm talking about an early morning journey when there is little traffic on the roads. As Only Human says, it's because the service is fragmented. As someone else pointed out,it's also in large measure geared towards visitors and pensioners, not those residents who want to use it to get to work.

I live on the route of the 12 (as from today the 13) and use the bus frequently. I have just got hold of the timetable for the 13 and cannot believe the following can really be happening:
1) No bus between 8am and 9am. Great help for workers, and of course only one an hour overall.
2) Sixteen buses a day Mon-Fri from Haxby, but with 9 different start times ranging from on the hour to 37 minutes past the hour! How in pity's name is anybody supposed to know when a bus is due unless they permanently carry a timetable!
No doubt this makes perfect sense to First's computer wonks, but I dont know who I pity the most - the passengers or the drivers!

'TRANSDEV, although i do acknowlege you will have to WALK to main road, walk a bit eh? perish the thought”'

The streets round here were perilous last winter. There are lots of pensioners with mobility problems and young families who will also find it harder now. South Bank residents aren't expected to walk into town(which lets face it, isn't far), no doubt for these reasons and are being given a bus service subsidised by council tax payers.

Stevie D wrote:

oldgoat wrote:
So anyone who works at the University during the holidays and relies on the bus is basically s#####ed.

Why? Transdev run a 10-minute frequency on the Unibus 44 all year round, and a half-hourly service on Coastliner 844 from Leeds and Copmanthorpe, not to mention that the First 4 will still be running every 15 minutes to the university during the holidays ... I would be delighted to have such a variety and choice of buses to work!

I stand corrected.

"On Monday-Saturday daytime during University holidays, there will continue to be a bus every 7-8 between Foxwood Lane & York - Clifford Street, with every other journey extending to the University."

I'd mis-read that.

Have to admit I didn't know there was any alternative buses to the Uni. I've seen the 44, but didn't know where and when it goes.

I live in Bishopthorpe and am pleased that First now realise that the Number 11 is a nightmare, but surely there are other options rather than cutting out the loop. What about reducing the number of bus stops on the South Bank loop? There are too many too close together! Another suggestion is to have the old style smaller hopper buses that York used to have. These are perfect for areas like South Bank where the roads are narrow. The number 11 could then run more often ie 3 an hour and accomodate Bishopthorpe and South Bank. Also they must be more fuel economical. York is not made for big buses and the residents of York I am sure would rather have a more reliable, frequent service with smaller cheaper to run buses than the larger new fleet First seem to want to impose on us.

The First no.13 is becoming is becoming increasingly irrelevant to Copmanthorpe, and halving the frequency to hourly is just about the last straw. Coastliner may be more frequent and cheaper, but the problem is one of reliability, being an operator of long-distance services which are prone to delays caused by congestion on the A64. And Transdev have nibbled away at the service - yes, there is an evening service, but there is now a 90 minute gap in buses from York to Cop.

To SimonBus - appreciate you trying to bring some balance to the discussion, but people who use the 13 probably won't agree!

Ultimately, it all comes down to the huge flaws in bus deregulation. Seen any other sensible country going down the same road?

To SImonBus –
When you say you work for First: –
Are you their official spokesperson?
Do you have authority from them to post on this forum in a manner that purports to represent them?

I suspect you are off the reservation, most contracts of employment have a clause whether explicit or implied that forbids any press contact speaking for your employer – I know mine has!
Did you change your second name to ‘Bus’ by deed poll?
I suggest that everybody ignores his postings, I know I have!

First are a very poor joke they provide a poor expensive service and yet still receive a subsidy.
In the case of the number 1 service from Wigginton the bus sometimes shortcuts the route in order to go past the aerial at Haxby level crossing bus stop on time in order to keep within the schedule thereby keeping the punctuality bonus!
Never mind all the passengers awaiting the bus that has taken the short cut as they have a monopoly on this route and they just pick them up later on with a later bus, First can’t go wrong they still get the passengers and the subsidy!

How is that for outstanding customer service?

This is the result of cut backs. Cut backs imposed from Yes! you got it.. Central Government.

Reading today's news about the Tories next plans to re scoop the Billions paid to their banking friends in the City. Bus service depletion is nothing compared to the disabled, elderly and poor facing severe cuts to fund the bankers.

Just another two years to go and we can vote for a new government

EVERYBODY BUY A BIKE.IT WILL WORK OUT CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN..

‘Hoofarted says... 9:45am Mon 8 Oct 12
Just another two years to go and we can vote for a new government’

You are quite correct and you and your deluded party will not be in power either!

I am not a tory, but at least they are actually doing something about the deficit no matter how unpopular rather than stick their heads in the sand and ignore/hope to go away like the rest of them, including your party.

Kevin Turvey wrote:
‘Hoofarted says... 9:45am Mon 8 Oct 12
Just another two years to go and we can vote for a new government’

You are quite correct and you and your deluded party will not be in power either!

I am not a tory, but at least they are actually doing something about the deficit no matter how unpopular rather than stick their heads in the sand and ignore/hope to go away like the rest of them, including your party.

Quite correct indeed i am. The deficit was created by incompetent tory bankers. Who should pay for this?

Cameron was not elected to hammer the welfare system if fact he wasn’t elected.
He is keeping this charade of deficit and times are tough as a ploy to feather the rich at the expense of the poor.
just today another back hander to the health companies of 20 BILLION POUNDS of our money to the old boy network this charade of a shop window needs to be smashed and behind it you will see the rich maggots crawling all over our tax money.
The Tories are greed orientated all ways have been they don’t give a flying fig about ordinary working people

Once you reduce bus services to a certain level, people simply have no choice but to make alternative arrangements. The remaining buses then get less used and off you go....you're in the cycle of decline.

The best system is a regulated bus service in which profits of the busy routes go into keeping the less profitable routes going.

Must admit I've largely stopped using the buses due to the cost of tickets for short hops and the difficulties in making a multi-bus journey.

I also think it's only when the large majority of residents support walking routes, cycle lanes and tracks and bus-priority measures that the roads will run freely enough to make bus transport a better experience. Opposing these is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

I notice Clifton Green seems as congested as ever but the cycle route is effectively blocked there now. Such a foolish and short sighted move which must have forced cyclists back into their cars.

Congratulations to first york on the introduction of a new and improved, more reliable bus service - first working day in action and the new number 13 (which took over from the perfectly reliable 12) was running 6 mins late first thing in the morning! Well done for making everybody even later for work than your timetable already makes them and probably getting people fired if it keeps up!
I salute you!

redbluelion wrote:
EVERYBODY BUY A BIKE.IT WILL WORK OUT CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN..

And for those of us who are disabled and have no other option than getting a bus to work?

kittyz12 wrote:

redbluelion wrote:
EVERYBODY BUY A BIKE.IT WILL WORK OUT CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN..

And for those of us who are disabled and have no other option than getting a bus to work?

Then it's a double downer I'm afraid. Along with facing benefit cuts, you will also face less chance of mobility.

2 years to go and we can vote for a new Government!

yorkshirelad wrote:
Once you reduce bus services to a certain level, people simply have no choice but to make alternative arrangements. The remaining buses then get less used and off you go....you're in the cycle of decline.

The best system is a regulated bus service in which profits of the busy routes go into keeping the less profitable routes going.

Must admit I've largely stopped using the buses due to the cost of tickets for short hops and the difficulties in making a multi-bus journey.

I also think it's only when the large majority of residents support walking routes, cycle lanes and tracks and bus-priority measures that the roads will run freely enough to make bus transport a better experience. Opposing these is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

I notice Clifton Green seems as congested as ever but the cycle route is effectively blocked there now. Such a foolish and short sighted move which must have forced cyclists back into their cars.

As somebody who uses the Clifton green junction daily on my bike
the traffic is less congested and I haven't failed to get through the lights so its hardly blocked !

Hoofarted wrote:

kittyz12 wrote:

redbluelion wrote:
EVERYBODY BUY A BIKE.IT WILL WORK OUT CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN..

And for those of us who are disabled and have no other option than getting a bus to work?

Then it's a double downer I'm afraid. Along with facing benefit cuts, you will also face less chance of mobility.

2 years to go and we can vote for a new Government!

2 years and 7 months and we can vote for a new Council as well !

I notice Clifton Green seems as congested as ever but the cycle route is effectively blocked there now. Such a foolish and short sighted move which must have forced cyclists back into their cars.

You obviously don't use it very much to come up with that quote.

I use this junction nearly everyday, and have not had to wait in a line of cars from the day the filter light was reintroduced.

If they're trying to save money, could someone please tell me why there are so many busses on my route that are out of service, or why we have a Staff bus going round at 6.30am with no body on it? Complete waste of time I say and money - First get your act together and save money where possible instead of cutting services and charging us more.

I'd accept an hourly bus service as long as I could rely on it turning up when scheduled to do so. Far too often I am left waiting for buses that don't arrive.

SimonBus, would it be possible to have a civilized discussion with First about the removal of the 4 from the Heslington East campus?

I have stopped using the bus altogether and have started driving instead because I would require two bus passes to get to work in a sensible time. While UniBus might provide competition on Route 44, it does not serve those of us that live in the rest of York very well.

As an Firstgroup annual pass customer (£580pa)I was livid when they reduced the 13/13a service even further last year, but these changes really take the biscuit. As I live on the far side of the bridge in Copmanthorpe, going towards Acaster Malbis, the reduced service just makes it hopeless for me to get to work. I start work at 8:15, so I either have to get up at a ridiculous hour to get the 6:59 bus or get the 8:10 bus and arrive probably half an hour late! Then when I finish at 5:30pm, I will have to wait half an hour to get a bus (if it turns up). Furthermore, if I do any small amount of overtime, there will be no bus for me!!

Luckily, my employer pay half the cost of my annual ticket, but this is irrelevant really. The service sucks, I should be able to buy one ticket and not have to then pay for a bus home because the service has been reduced. Some will say I should get a coastliner pass, but that is a far worse proposition, as it's not a lot cheaper and only covers the route into town, whereas at least the first pass allows me to use the park and ride when I need it (I dont have use of a car most days). Also, why should I have to walk almost 1mile to the bus stop because they can't be bothered to do the loop round the village???

I am really annoyed and can't see a sensible solution with the changes that have been made, I will have to try for a refund, and then who knows what I will do.

Somebody needs to do something about this joke of a service to Copmanthorpe and all the other affected areas.

Credit to SimonBus for posting, I'm sure it would be a lot less hassle not to post.

Good to see some communication

HPSauce wrote:
Credit to SimonBus for posting, I'm sure it would be a lot less hassle not to post.

Good to see some communication

Thanks

We are committed firstly to getting the service right and contrary to some of the comments here we have Invested more buses (and cost) into the York network. This is not a cost cutting exercise, although I appreciate that our customers in Copmanthorpe and West Nooks may have a different view.

The comments here are valuable and we will use these when we review the impact of this week's changes. We'll also be seeking views from our customers before making any further adjustments

Kevin Tennent wrote:
SimonBus, would it be possible to have a civilized discussion with First about the removal of the 4 from the Heslington East campus?

I have stopped using the bus altogether and have started driving instead because I would require two bus passes to get to work in a sensible time. While UniBus might provide competition on Route 44, it does not serve those of us that live in the rest of York very well.

Yes you can contact us at the details in the third post above or go via the travel office at the Uni

livewithit wrote:
Dear SimonBus:-

1 bus an hour is a rubbish service = fact
running on the same minute as coastliner service is just bad planning - and has been raised with both services for over 1 year now = fact
Running your last buses back to yoirk as "not in service" when passengers could travel from Copmanthorpe to Blosson st is also rubbish service = fact

Respond to those in terms of as improved !!!

I'll look into these issues

On reflection of day 1 i think first got it right not to go to heslington east as both my buses were on time, Can anyone else not see the 44 that was paid for was hardly used on the campus to campus route, but the 4s was always full yet got nothing well done first for being brave and trying. 11s and 13s are never really busy unless its gone 9am. Maybe first should desert ashleigh park just like transdev did they say its a terrible service see how they feel with no service. Ive never seen a number 1 ever take a short cut so someone on here is talking out of his ears

daveyboy25 wrote:
On reflection of day 1 i think first got it right not to go to heslington east as both my buses were on time, Can anyone else not see the 44 that was paid for was hardly used on the campus to campus route, but the 4s was always full yet got nothing well done first for being brave and trying. 11s and 13s are never really busy unless its gone 9am. Maybe first should desert ashleigh park just like transdev did they say its a terrible service see how they feel with no service. Ive never seen a number 1 ever take a short cut so someone on here is talking out of his ears

The University kept approaching FirstGroup to run the number 4 to Heslington East complete with free on-campus travel for students, but First kept refusing... so the University went to York Pullman, who accepted the offer and started running in competition with First - to which First then had a bit of a tantrum over it saying how it wasn't fair yaddayaddayadda... the deal was also done on a sliding scale so that as the route got more popular the subsidy would reduce and the 44 would become more of a commercial route, which is now what is starting to happen in addition to the 844 (fully commercial) operating that way too.

crocdungee wrote:
As an Firstgroup annual pass customer (£580pa)I was livid when they reduced the 13/13a service even further last year, but these changes really take the biscuit. As I live on the far side of the bridge in Copmanthorpe, going towards Acaster Malbis, the reduced service just makes it hopeless for me to get to work. I start work at 8:15, so I either have to get up at a ridiculous hour to get the 6:59 bus or get the 8:10 bus and arrive probably half an hour late! Then when I finish at 5:30pm, I will have to wait half an hour to get a bus (if it turns up). Furthermore, if I do any small amount of overtime, there will be no bus for me!!

Luckily, my employer pay half the cost of my annual ticket, but this is irrelevant really. The service sucks, I should be able to buy one ticket and not have to then pay for a bus home because the service has been reduced. Some will say I should get a coastliner pass, but that is a far worse proposition, as it's not a lot cheaper and only covers the route into town, whereas at least the first pass allows me to use the park and ride when I need it (I dont have use of a car most days). Also, why should I have to walk almost 1mile to the bus stop because they can't be bothered to do the loop round the village???

I am really annoyed and can't see a sensible solution with the changes that have been made, I will have to try for a refund, and then who knows what I will do.

Somebody needs to do something about this joke of a service to Copmanthorpe and all the other affected areas.

Ideally we'd have two bus services forming a figure of 8 as two orbital routes - to keep them memorable we'll call them the 111 and 222... both routes could run as a core between the city and askham bar, the 111 then going along chaloners road, gale lane, turod road, green lane, front street, chapelfields, beckfield lane (with an hourly loop around Knapton), Millfield Lane, Rawcliffe Bar, Clifton Moor, Wigginton, Haxby, Towthorpe, Strensall (loop using Ox Carr Lane in one direction and leaving the village using York Road), north Huntington up to North Lane, Monks Cross, Jockey Lane, New Lane, then a one-way system of Highthorn Road or Anthea Drive (full size single deckers can and do go down these streets either for the school or as staff buses), then the full length of Huntington Road to the city... the 222 from Askham Bar could go to Copmanthorpe, then acaster lane to Bishopthorpe, then Sim Balk Lane and A64 to the Designer Outlet, then Fulford, Heslington Lane, University, Green Dykes Lane, Melrosegate, 5th Avenue, Tang Hall Lane, Bad Bargain Lane, Ashley Park, Stockton on the Forest, then a loop at the end of Stockton and back to go onto Malton Road and to Monks Cross, then as the new service 12 to the city.... those routes would offer several new journey possibilities not currently offered without changing buses.

Stevie D wrote:

Yorkborn66 wrote:
Correct, Yorkshire Coastliner, and they to have reduced there service to the village, an example is by passing the village altogether from Tadcaster Road to Tadcaster. You should already know this, so without falling out, stop playing silly games to try and justify First’s actions. What is the last bus from York centre to Copmanthorpe on a night? Pathetic excuses of a pathetic service.”

I'm not quite sure what your gripe is here. Coastliner run a half-hourly service to Copmanthorpe during the day, and more frequently at peak times. There are more Coastliner buses from York to Companthorpe than there used to be, barring a brief period after they started the 844, but that was only a short-term anomaly. The last bus leaves York station at 2318, which is in line with other York routes (some are a few minutes later but others finish earlier), and later than buses to other towns nearby like Selby and Pocklington.

For anyone who wants to use it, the Transdev bus service to Copmanthorpe is absolutely fine. I suspect First have realised they can't compete with it, and most passengers who can walk up to the main road for the Coastliner are already doing so.

My gripe is with First not Coastliner. Walking up to the main road is no problem for me, but what about people that aren’t so good on their feet having to pass bus stops to reach the top road? I don’t consider this progress.

"You obviously don't use it very much to come up with that quote.

I use this junction nearly everyday, and have not had to wait in a line of cars from the day the filter light was reintroduced.”

You are exceptionally lucky and should buy a lottery ticket. This is off-topic, but my daily experience of the revised junction is that an average of three vehicles manage to get into the left filter lane on Water End as traffic stops for the red phase. That's how many vehicles manage to move off when the filter light turns green, and anything else wishing to turn left is forced to wait until the main phase turns green and the full traffic line is moving. So that's an average of three vehicles more than the previous junction configuration per phase, assuming the total length of green phase is the same as before. If the total length of green phase has been increased then why couldn't this have been done before at minimal expense? Or would that not have been politically expedient?

Back on topic. I will be interested to see whether the First service along Beckfield Lane begins to offer some competition to TransDev. The last time I was satisfied with the services offered by First, it was the number 16 service via Acomb Shops, Hamilton Drive and Holly Bank, and it was an effective and timely service (parked cars notwithstanding) that did not involve five-minute stands at Acomb Shops and Danebury Drive as did the last time I used a number 1. It was this time-wasting that provoked me to use the 26 TransDev; oh yes. and the fact that it was cheaper and although less frequent, more reliable. First can run a service powered by unicorns for all I care; I won't waste any more money on them.

Buses are for poor people. Face it folks, this is down to Bankers mess up austerity. Were all in this together eh

I'd really like to know how they are improving efficiency. The number 4 is the busiest in town but now only every other bus goes to Acomb which means i'll be waiting around even longer to get home every night. Absolute **** joke and it already was before this. One of the reasons i will be moving house after Christmas I'm so fed up of it.

skeifr says...

but my daily experience of the revised junction is that an average of three vehicles manage to get into the left filter lane on Water End as traffic stops for the red phase. That's how many vehicles manage to move off when the filter light turns green, and anything else wishing to turn left is forced to wait until the main phase turns green and the full traffic line is moving. So that's an average of three vehicles more than the previous junction configuration per phase, assuming the total length of green phase is the same as before. If the total length of green phase has been increased then why couldn't this have been done before at minimal expense? Or would that not have been politically expedient?

And this is EXACTLY what I said would happen when all those motorists started having a tantrum over water end only having one lane - the key problem is that it's a staggered crossroads and the council refuse to sort that out because Clifton Green's green is a 'village green', just like the one at Poppleton that they're building partially over for a park and ride....
As for the traffic lights, the sequencing has been altered to give Water End more time on green at the expense of giving the A19 less time on green, therefore the queues have shifted from Water End to Shipton Road. Nice one council... -_-

--

Something I have realised about these bus changes is that the 4 has had a downgrade in terms of vehicles. Every number 4 that goes through Foxwood and then changes to a number 5 HAS to be run by a single decker in order to get under the low bridges along Leeman Road on the route of the 5... therefore the seating capacity has been reduced by about 30 per journey (although it's still more seats than on the FTR!!)

‘Hoofarted says... 1:27pm Tue 9 Oct 12
Buses are for poor people. Face it folks, this is down to Bankers mess up austerity. Were all in this together eh’

Buses are for poor people indeed!
Is that why you need use them?

Nice grammar with the ‘Were’ it is at about the right level for a failed councillor who will not be going any further in that career!

So going back to the point and the massive deficit ran up by the previous government, what is your party actually going to do about it is real terms to reduce it with some form of cuts?
Nothing that’s what, ignore and hope it goes away, the usual British tactic.
It’s all very well baiting the Tories but if you have no practicable alternative you have no argument.

Kevin Scurvy, you keep this paranoid delusion going about me being a councillor and being someones partner who was elected in that role. Can you be sure this paranoia you type is correct? It's amusing reading but incorrect.

The deficit was created due to.. I will type this slowly... and in capitals... a GLOBAL Banking collapse.

Read it slowly ....

You mention "My Party!" Are you referring to Birthday or Christmas? You need to expand here a little.

You see, The G.L.O.B.A.L Banking collapse was a failure and the tax payer picked up the tab. If my business failed like the banks did, should the tax payer bail me out? I think not. So this protective, cannot fail no matter what bail out that was wrongly instigated by the labour government, has to be paid back. Hence the massive austerity cuts. Who bares the biggest brunt in this? This brings us back to topic.. The Poor do hence the Bus cuts.

I look forward to the spell checks :)

I too am happy to see SimonBus contributing to this debate, whether he is speaking on or off message for First. Many of the posts illustrate the near impossibility of making the "big-picture" needs and views of the service provider reflect the myriad of individual "micro" requirements and situations of their customers.For example, I am one of the (despised by some) "bus-pass-brigade", and my highly individual gripe with the changes to the 12/13 timetables is that the first number 13 from West Nooks on which I can use my pass (0907) will not get me into town in time to connect with the cluster of Coastliner services to the coast that have provided me with some brilliant days out this summer. First cannot possibly be expected to take that into consideration, but it will really hit me hard.I could I suppose get the 1 into town, but the equivalent time bus to my previous 12 is due at the stop closest to me at 08.58, and the driver would be perfectly entitled to refuse the use of my pass. Also, many people prefer not to sit on Gillygate for ages, watching their connection time slip away.
I personally think First do a fair job in a city full of constraints to operating bus services. I love living in York, but with two rivers, extensive city walls, more traffic lights than anywhere else I know, race meetings etc etc it is not surprising buses are often way off-time.
To make the point - my sister-in-law visited us at the weekend from Manchester. She fell about laughing as we sat in heavy traffic on Gillygate on Sunday afternoon when she saw the "Inner Ring-Road" signs - her inner rin-road is a motorway!

I too am a regular user of the number 12 service from the foxwood end or town that has been given the raw end of the stick due to this timetable change, for starters the early morning number 12 service, shifted five minutes up in the schedule, which now causes me to miss my connection onto a Coastliner bus, forcing me to be half an hour late for work and also querying why the 12 service now no longer runs from stonebow after 6is on an evening, again prompting anyone marches across town to catch late night buses back home from night out.

These changes have now lost first all my fares on a morning, five a week, I now walk rather than be late and will cause me to catch taxis out of york centre on evenings out rather than have to cut short evening in order to rush back to the station.

I recieved a typically hopeless reply from first basically telling 'oh well, can't please everyone all the time ' and 'we only changed it due to negative feedback from other users', clearly judging by comments here that doesn't seem to be the case.

I also put it to them that surely it was more economical to run smaller vehicles on the less populate routes, someone mentioned hopper busses back there, again, comments ignored by first.

I now await first telling us in 6 months time that the number 12 route is no longer viable due to falling numbers of users, well yes, bugger up your service for the users and force them to find alternative ways around and of course the numbers are going to fall!

The 12 service has been slashed and slashed again over the years, with the same old argument, 'falling numbers' are you suprised?

First's loss however will at least benefit other services, the taxi drivers will love it for one!

personally i think the number 1 should start earlier for us commuters. the 4s and 5s is a fantasticly run bus now as i never have to wait long. the 11 is better and theres a 15 doing the whingy loop.yes 13s are rubbish and 12s not so great either but reliability is ok. 6s are good as are 10s. first are trying to improve, someones loss is others gains as first said cant please everyone

When I first heard of the changes and that the Monks Cross residential service was going to be bolted-on to the popular Foxwood and Acomb Park service, I thought it would give a better service that run up until, hmmm, I don't know, when the shops shut at Monks Cross... How wrong I was.

The new timetable for the 12 to Monks Cross is even worse than the previous service 13... previously there were buses TO monks Cross until 6.30pm roughly - but now this has been cut back so the last bus arrives in Monks Cross at 5pm!! The next 3 services are cut short at Elmfield Avenue, then running empty to the depot. What this means is if you live on the route anywhere beyond Elmfield Avenue (including me... and I also know of a pensioner who makes almost daily journeys from New Lane to Poppleton Road by bus, who can hardly walk) now has no bus service after about 4.30pm. I refuse to count the Park and Ride as a service to Monks Cross itself because it serves no meaningful area of houses directly, it costs more than the 12 if going from the city to Monks Cross, and the last bus leaves Monks Cross shops sometime just after 7pm which is still before the shops shut.

Clifton Moor has a bus service going up until almost midnight, yet Monks Cross can't have one that even goes up to sunset! Perhaps First are trying to save money on headlight bulbs or something. Asda is open 24 hours a day, Sainsburys until 10 or 11pm, the other shops are open until 8pm or 9pm in the christmas season - anybody whi anything going on up top would know to provide a bus up until just after those closing times for at least the MX shops so that staff use the bus to go home.

In previous years when I used to live closer to town right on the route of the 13 (now the 12), the christmas season was quite busy for the buses, as they would be full and standing (especially on saturdays) as people did some christmas shopping in the city centre and then moved out to MX to carry on in the late afternoon... as soon as the last timetable came in which slashed off any services from Monks Cross after 5.30pm, the buses might as well have had a load of tumbleweeds on because nobody was using them... and suprise suprise the car parks at Monks Cross were busy and overflowing onto local roads as everybody was driving there because of no bus service. And this year it will be even worse.

First Group has a national reputation for services it deems to be underperforming: reduce the frequency and standard of vehicles used, cut back on morning and levening services, increase the fares, and then cut off the route entirely like a gangrenous leg as nobody is using it. Compare this to Stagecoach who, on an example of a service to Chesterfield, increased the frequency from every 2 hours to hourly and then half-hourly, improved the quality of buses used, kept fares the same, and most importantly advertised the big improvements - and now they've gone froma service that only had about 10 passengers per bus every 2 hours to requiring brand new double deck buses every 30 minutes whereby nearly every seat is occupied.

... And Firstgroup wonders why they have an £11 Million drop in profits so that they're having to sell off depots to reclaim the money.

Thanks for turning me front yard (in Foxwood Lane) into a bus depot First. I imagine the compensation is in the post for no longer being able to get our car off the drive!

Its ridiculous the way they have been changed, especially for those that work monday 9-5! Having to wait til around 6pm for the bus back to the haxby/west nooks side is stupid!! Before we know it, they'll be changing the times to every 2 hours!! No wonder most people walk these days, prices for buses are TOO expensive and waiting for them is just a waste of time!!

Buses are subsidized by Government tax payers money. Banking collapse/failure was funded by us to the tune of £80 plus Billion in tax payers money. Bankers bonuses haven't stopped but, someone has to suffer for their failure. And it is the small people who are doing so.

Welcome to "Were all not on the bus together" Britain