Hungate land sale ‘best for jobs’ (From York Press)

I personally think the jobs are more important than the site value but it just shows how little we should believe anything we are told by any politicians.
They have said it would make a profit when sold! Wrong and we all knoew this to be the case
There was no danger of loosing money! Wrtong and we all knew this to be the case
Now its worth less and has effectivly been given away. Note there is no mention of actual price achieved!
Finally I know that they gave other parties minimal notice of its being sold..certainly not enough to make meaningful bids as the decision had been taken to secure Hiscox. Not that it was necessarily wrong to do so but its disingenuous to make it sound like it was marketed openly when it was not. What are york frightened of?
Why not just tell the truth? It was decided the Hiscox jobs at stake were worth more to york than the capital value of the site..Period. What's wrong with making a decison and telling people why it was made and the consequences of that decion? Why try to hide the real truth?
There would be some criticism but at least you would be being honest and showing why this decision was made? Perhaps people would trust you all more if you took a straight approach

Steve Galloway's website blog said that he understood that the site would achieve it's £5m valuation - clearly not.

The council had planned their offices would accommodate 1,600 on the site. The site will now only provide a maximum of 600 jobs - a loss of potentially up to 1,000.

The gross development value of the site by Harrison suggests that it will be in the region of £23m (hotel @ £18m plus 24,000 sq ft offices @ say £200/sq ft). A land value of 25% of GDV might not be unreasonable; equating to between £5m and £6m. Sounds very much like it has been sold on the cheap ? Why are the council so secretive/sensitive about disclosing the selling price - don't we (York residents) have a right to know ?

Finally, according to their latest half-yearly report, Hiscox made a pre-tax profit of £125.8m and only paid £1m in tax. The council give them an incentivised land deal to build offices here, but, York-based Persimmon Homes, here since 1976, who pay 24% corporation tax on their profits, are expected to provide 35% affordable housing at Germany Beck. Where is the fairness and equality Coun Alexander ? Truly shameful treatment of housebuilders in York, whilst a company which is contributing less tax to this country is given preferential incentives.

Another fudged report by council officers, engineered and contrived to provide the outcome desired by Alexander's politburo, aided by marxist historian comrade England. York is now run by two dictators, with their cut and shut reporting system.

"The site was originally proposed as the council’s new headquarters until the authority withdrew its own planning application in 2008, following criticism of its plans"

Even on the artist's impression this new building looks hideous!!

Hopefully the same bodies who were critical of the council's office plan will lobby on this proposal.

Don't these Architects ever learn, is this their idea of blending into the area?

Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

The council revealed it asked parties who had expressed an interest in the site to submit offers as it progressed discussions with Hiscox.
Jackanory2 Pimpernel has a point. The present incumbents are in charge and they have made this decision but seem scared of saying why they made it and how so try to hide behind ..''of course it was marketed '' typecomments when it was not.
If they came clean and were honest and said ''we felt the jobs were vital to york and if it means we have to lose money on the site to secure those jobs we felt that was the right thing to do'' people could make thie mind up on the facts rather than the spin
Its all about trust and respect which is seriously lacking in politicians and the quicker they realise honesty is the best policy the faster they wil regain both

What a stunningly ugly building. Didn't the architect notice the Black Swan next door? It's not conspicuously vernacular, is it?

I wonder if the Architect is or was related to the architect of another ugly monstrosity just the road, The Stonebow.

I wonder if the Architect is or was related to the architect of another ugly monstrosity just down the road, The Stonebow.

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
What a stunningly ugly building. Didn't the architect notice the Black Swan next door? It's not conspicuously vernacular, is it?

Well it isn't that ugly but could it not be moved back 3 metres so that the Black Swan dominates the scene. Come on Councillors; retain the ownership of that little extra 3 metres of pavement. Hiscox owe us that for a cheap deal.
I do agree jobs are main consideration.

meme wrote:
The council revealed it asked parties who had expressed an interest in the site to submit offers as it progressed discussions with Hiscox. Jackanory2 Pimpernel has a point. The present incumbents are in charge and they have made this decision but seem scared of saying why they made it and how so try to hide behind ..''of course it was marketed '' typecomments when it was not. If they came clean and were honest and said ''we felt the jobs were vital to york and if it means we have to lose money on the site to secure those jobs we felt that was the right thing to do'' people could make thie mind up on the facts rather than the spin Its all about trust and respect which is seriously lacking in politicians and the quicker they realise honesty is the best policy the faster they wil regain both

But, then they would have to be consistent, and forego affordable housing to allow housebuilders to buuld as much needed private housing and providing more construction sector jobs.

It's all an insidious conspiracy, with propaganda, spin and lies fom York's own A&E - for accidents and emergencies you don't have to look further than the marxist twosome; Alexander & England - cut and shut reports a speciality - just ask Mike Slater !!!!

How much does job creation cost York Council ?

In the case of Hiscox, it is the loss incurred by selling a site at a discount to it's market valuation of £5m for how much ??? They won't tell us. Why ? Because they are afraid of criticism for lack of commercial nous.

In the case of York housebuilders, it would cost nothing. All they have to do is drop the ridiculous, greedy, unworkable, affordable housing requirements. This would result in thousands of jobs and thousands of houses and hundreds of millions in revenue to York's economy - much more than the Hiscox deal provides and at no cost to York residents.

Fairness, equality and consistency in York ? Not a chance with A&E - GET THEM OUT, ASAP !

New chant for the anti-Alexander and England league:

Fairness, jobs and equality ?
Not a chance with A&E......
Get them out, ASAP !

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
New chant for the anti-Alexander and England league:

Fairness, jobs and equality ?
Not a chance with A&E......
Get them out, ASAP !

Prozac, anyone!

It makes no difference which party is in control in York they just give away York to any one who makes a offer that looks like it will bring some thing in some time in the feature but because these deals all turn sour and the people who convince the council that it a good deal they walk away with all the profit and York gets no where near what they say York will get from the deal

Where are the jobs HSBC were going to bring to York ?

HSBC axes £300m data centre plans for Monks Cross, York

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
How much does job creation cost York Council ? In the case of Hiscox, it is the loss incurred by selling a site at a discount to it's market valuation of £5m for how much ??? They won't tell us. Why ? Because they are afraid of criticism for lack of commercial nous. In the case of York housebuilders, it would cost nothing. All they have to do is drop the ridiculous, greedy, unworkable, affordable housing requirements. This would result in thousands of jobs and thousands of houses and hundreds of millions in revenue to York's economy - much more than the Hiscox deal provides and at no cost to York residents. Fairness, equality and consistency in York ? Not a chance with A&E - GET THEM OUT, ASAP !

Are you Mr Crabtree in disguise?!!! You seem awfully obsessed with affordable housing quotas in York and appear to want to try and allude to them in virtually every posting on this story.

Despite being a lifelong Labour voter, I am not a fan of either Alexander or England, and will happily use the term A&E for them, but to say "Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!”" is a step too far and I would enquire if you have any idea what marxism/communism was about? I suspect not because if you did, you would be well aware that if they did lean towards that political view, they wouldn't be trying to encourage Hiscox and other large companies to come to, and invest in, York.

Remember Hiscox and the sale of land to them? The subject matter of this story?! Thought not. We seem to be self obsessing about house builders and the unfairness of the affordable housing policy. I don't want to be the one breaking it to you, but I suspect that you will have very few takers for your new chant given that it makes you look a bit, well, "mis-informed".

I have been saying for years that big business rules us and here is more proof. They call the shots and the politicians dance to their tune. All politicias all parties.
I supose CYC could have said nothing doing but who holds all the aces? The jobs would have go elsewhere.

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Hang on a sec, what is wrong with feminism!!?

Mrs Pimpernel will lock you in the shed for that one! ;-)

Even AndyD wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Hang on a sec, what is wrong with feminism!!?

Mrs Pimpernel will lock you in the shed for that one! ;-)

It is not right for the Chief Exec to overtly pursue an agenda of inequality, in promoting the female gender - she is not a women's rights campaigner.

Furthermore, to say on twitter that she was indebted to Eric Hobsbawn, the marxist historian/academic betrays her political beliefs, when her position requires her to be politically neutral.

She has a reputation for being a bully, and is disliked and viewed with suspicion by council staff.

I just don't think she is good for York, and I don't fall for the faux loyalty to York and Yorkshire. She is scottish, not one of us !

fulfordphilosopher wrote:
I have been saying for years that big business rules us and here is more proof. They call the shots and the politicians dance to their tune. All politicias all parties.
I supose CYC could have said nothing doing but who holds all the aces? The jobs would have go elsewhere.

They could also have sold the site to the highest bidder, and allowed Hiscox to approach the site purchaser to build the offices for them. It just seems a bit too cosy and incestuous with Harrisons building the West Offices. Deals within deals to the exclusion of fair competition. This council is tarnished.

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Even AndyD wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Hang on a sec, what is wrong with feminism!!?

Mrs Pimpernel will lock you in the shed for that one! ;-)

It is not right for the Chief Exec to overtly pursue an agenda of inequality, in promoting the female gender - she is not a women's rights campaigner.

Furthermore, to say on twitter that she was indebted to Eric Hobsbawn, the marxist historian/academic betrays her political beliefs, when her position requires her to be politically neutral.

She has a reputation for being a bully, and is disliked and viewed with suspicion by council staff.

I just don't think she is good for York, and I don't fall for the faux loyalty to York and Yorkshire. She is scottish, not one of us !

It's always tough at the top, as any good Chief Executive will testify. But maybe you've never been there.

And you have ?

AngryandFrustrated wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
How much does job creation cost York Council ? In the case of Hiscox, it is the loss incurred by selling a site at a discount to it's market valuation of £5m for how much ??? They won't tell us. Why ? Because they are afraid of criticism for lack of commercial nous. In the case of York housebuilders, it would cost nothing. All they have to do is drop the ridiculous, greedy, unworkable, affordable housing requirements. This would result in thousands of jobs and thousands of houses and hundreds of millions in revenue to York's economy - much more than the Hiscox deal provides and at no cost to York residents. Fairness, equality and consistency in York ? Not a chance with A&E - GET THEM OUT, ASAP !

Are you Mr Crabtree in disguise?!!! You seem awfully obsessed with affordable housing quotas in York and appear to want to try and allude to them in virtually every posting on this story.

Despite being a lifelong Labour voter, I am not a fan of either Alexander or England, and will happily use the term A&E for them, but to say "Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!”" is a step too far and I would enquire if you have any idea what marxism/communism was about? I suspect not because if you did, you would be well aware that if they did lean towards that political view, they wouldn't be trying to encourage Hiscox and other large companies to come to, and invest in, York.

Remember Hiscox and the sale of land to them? The subject matter of this story?! Thought not. We seem to be self obsessing about house builders and the unfairness of the affordable housing policy. I don't want to be the one breaking it to you, but I suspect that you will have very few takers for your new chant given that it makes you look a bit, well, "mis-informed".

They play a clever and subtle game.

Their positions as leaders of the council, require them to encourage inward investment, and they are both career-obsessed; using York as a stepping stone. The jobs and growth agenda is a front. It's the hidden agenda's and manipulation of the system to suit these agendas that is most worrying.

There is a lack of transparency, fairness, equality, consistency and clarity in the decisions that are made, and I personally think that they are not achieviung best value.

York's biggest problem is housing, and there is no action whatsoever by the council to improve the situation. Their policies have been an absolute catastrophe, and massive failure, and they are doing their best to sweep the true numbers under the carpet.

If we are not careful A&E will put York into intensive care !!!

pedalling paul wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Even AndyD wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Hang on a sec, what is wrong with feminism!!?

Mrs Pimpernel will lock you in the shed for that one! ;-)

It is not right for the Chief Exec to overtly pursue an agenda of inequality, in promoting the female gender - she is not a women's rights campaigner.

Furthermore, to say on twitter that she was indebted to Eric Hobsbawn, the marxist historian/academic betrays her political beliefs, when her position requires her to be politically neutral.

She has a reputation for being a bully, and is disliked and viewed with suspicion by council staff.

I just don't think she is good for York, and I don't fall for the faux loyalty to York and Yorkshire. She is scottish, not one of us !

It's always tough at the top, as any good Chief Executive will testify. But maybe you've never been there.

It's a results business, and where is the housing, where is the CS/LDF or local plan ? A community stadium, John Lewis and 300 jobs from Hiscox have been easy giveaways, and don't compensate for the underperformance of CoYC's leaders.

Don't patronise me either. I'm a resident, and have every right to express my views, concerns and criticisms. Some of us have more important things to be concerned about other than cycle tracks !

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

fulfordphilosopher wrote:
I have been saying for years that big business rules us and here is more proof. They call the shots and the politicians dance to their tune. All politicias all parties.
I supose CYC could have said nothing doing but who holds all the aces? The jobs would have go elsewhere.

They could also have sold the site to the highest bidder, and allowed Hiscox to approach the site purchaser to build the offices for them. It just seems a bit too cosy and incestuous with Harrisons building the West Offices. Deals within deals to the exclusion of fair competition. This council is tarnished.

The point I was making was that a big firm like Hiscox probably never pay the market value, they will always use jobs as leverage. I guess they got a better deal in York than anywhere else....... Big business rules!!!!

pedalling paul wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Even AndyD wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

Jackanory2 wrote:
Hang on Scarlet Pimpernel, I have absolutely no allegiance to any party, but even I know that this was all caused years ago and you can't blame the eejits we have at the moment.

Oh yes I can - I already did, and will continue to do so. It's rotten to the core - full of politicised officers in league with the marxists running things now. Feminist, marxist historian, comrade England and Mr Leader; Mao Tse Alexander !!!!

Hang on a sec, what is wrong with feminism!!?

Mrs Pimpernel will lock you in the shed for that one! ;-)

It is not right for the Chief Exec to overtly pursue an agenda of inequality, in promoting the female gender - she is not a women's rights campaigner.

Furthermore, to say on twitter that she was indebted to Eric Hobsbawn, the marxist historian/academic betrays her political beliefs, when her position requires her to be politically neutral.

She has a reputation for being a bully, and is disliked and viewed with suspicion by council staff.

I just don't think she is good for York, and I don't fall for the faux loyalty to York and Yorkshire. She is scottish, not one of us !

It's always tough at the top, as any good Chief Executive will testify. But maybe you've never been there.

You avoid the points and criticisms I make - defend her on these issues.

Are you saying she's a good one ?

If so, elaborate..... ? !!!!

fulfordphilosopher wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

fulfordphilosopher wrote:
I have been saying for years that big business rules us and here is more proof. They call the shots and the politicians dance to their tune. All politicias all parties.
I supose CYC could have said nothing doing but who holds all the aces? The jobs would have go elsewhere.

They could also have sold the site to the highest bidder, and allowed Hiscox to approach the site purchaser to build the offices for them. It just seems a bit too cosy and incestuous with Harrisons building the West Offices. Deals within deals to the exclusion of fair competition. This council is tarnished.

The point I was making was that a big firm like Hiscox probably never pay the market value, they will always use jobs as leverage. I guess they got a better deal in York than anywhere else....... Big business rules!!!!

I expect that the real winners will be Harrisons, not Hiscox. I hope so, because they are the real brains, not the commercially unaware CoYC.

Housebuilders are big business also - Persimmon and Barratt are both twice as big as Hiscox, in terms of assets, employees and turnover, but, not profits. Hiscox have made nearly £1billion profit since the credit crunch, whereas duriung the same period Persimmon and Barratt both made a net loss, jointly totalling around £1billion. Yet York Council fall over themselves to give incentives to Hiscox, but continue to make unworkable demands for affordable housing from housebuilders.

Where is the fairness and consistency ?

If there is anybody who is trusted less than politicians (and former News of the World journalists for that matter), it's property developers and Mr Pimpernel reminds us why by his comments here.

Are you Mr Crabtree in disguise?!!!

Well duh!

pedalling paul says...
9:58pm Wed 3 Oct 12


It's always tough at the top, as any good Chief Executive will testify. But maybe you've never been there.”

Kersten England and COYC remind me of Jonathan Ross and the BBC, in that it's not so much that they are particularly bad at their jobs but people find the obsene amount of money they are paid for them out of taxes a problem which makes them a target. For half a million a year instead of six Ross would have shrugged off Sachsgate and Mrs England would have a lot less critics for fifty thousand a year instead of treble that.

Oh and believe me Paul it's a lot tougher "at the top" in the private sector, in competition for work, doing it for a fixed price and not knowing whether your client can pay you at the end than it is running an organisation with a captive taxpaxer to fund your mistakes.

Malcolm wrote:
If there is anybody who is trusted less than politicians (and former News of the World journalists for that matter), it's property developers and Mr Pimpernel reminds us why by his comments here.

It is mainly left-wing politicians, and their supporters like Malcolm, who have a problem with developers, because they despise private enterprise making (that dirty word) a PROFIT. They take it out on housebuilders in York by using the planning system as a stick to beat them with, by setting inflated, unworkable affordable housing targets.

York Council's ruling left-wing elite, are however, inconsistent with their prejudice, as can be seen by their cosy relationships with Oakgate and Harrison, who will both make far bigger profits from their developments in York than housebuilders, thanks to the council.

Sadly, York Council's victimisation of housebuilders also results in hurting York and it's residents; making the housing crisis worse, and depriving York of economic growth.

In York, anyone can see that the council think that offices, hotels, student accommodation, shops and a football stadium are more important than housing.