‘Hens and stags are scaring off tourists’

York Press: Jeremy Cassel Jeremy Cassel

THE rising number of stag and hen parties in York is “scaring off” tourists, one of the city’s leading hoteliers fears.

Jeremy Cassel, managing director of Cassel Hotels Ltd, which operates The Grange Hotel in Clifton , says such groups bring drunken behaviour and little else to York, and risk the city’s reputation.

He says groups have been attracted due to the rise of budget hotels in York, and he has now backed calls by tourism chiefs for a fresh study of whether the city has too much visitor accommodation.

Mr Cassel believes an independent company should analyse the number of three, four and five-star rooms needed to meet demand, and says the arrival of more low-price hotels has sparked a raucous rise in stag and hen parties, which may be damaging York’s image.

He said: “These are now becoming a fixture at a weekend in York, with the consequent drunken behaviour. Is this the reputation we want for our city?

"My feeling is that these parties bring precious little to the city economy and are now scaring off the tourist who wants to have a pleasant family stay and spend in our shops.”

Visit York has suggested City of York Council should review hotel accommodation following proposals to transform the council’s offices in St Leonard’s Place into an 88-bedroom hotel.

The council is leaving St Leonard’s Place to move to its new HQ at West Offices in Station Rise.

Visit York has has supported the plans, but said this scheme and others approved or in the pipeline would mean more than 600 extra hotel beds in York. It says a “formal study”, involving existing hoteliers, should be carried out.

Mr Cassel said York already had “a great many more bedrooms per visitor” than other heritage cities, and the level of competition meant its average room-rate was comparatively lower.

He said hotels now had less money for reinvestment and refurbishment, leading to buildings being neglected and lower wages, and the “overwhelming view” among York hoteliers was that there was too much competition.

“I am certainly not against the development of more hotels as long as the business is there to sustain them, and it is vital the city economy grows and provides the stability which is so desperately needed," Mr Cassel said.

Council leader James Alexander has said a study has been “set in motion” to see if York’s tourism needs are being met.

Comments (107)

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9:52am Sat 11 Aug 12

MrChuckles says...

He's bang on!
He's bang on! MrChuckles
  • Score: 0

10:00am Sat 11 Aug 12

Back and Beyond says...

Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?
Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating? Back and Beyond
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10:27am Sat 11 Aug 12

Blythespirit says...

Back and Beyond wrote:
Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?
Yes it was. And the cynic inside me wonders whether Mr Cassel is perhaps more worried about the budget hotels taking trade away in the current harsh financial climate, than the stag and hen parties. I doubt he would be complaining if these parties were staying at The Grange.
[quote][p][bold]Back and Beyond[/bold] wrote: Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?[/p][/quote]Yes it was. And the cynic inside me wonders whether Mr Cassel is perhaps more worried about the budget hotels taking trade away in the current harsh financial climate, than the stag and hen parties. I doubt he would be complaining if these parties were staying at The Grange. Blythespirit
  • Score: 0

10:29am Sat 11 Aug 12

capt spaulding says...

Back and Beyond wrote:
Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?
Yes Hen and Stag runs should be banned..!!!!

How do you do that then ???

Get JA on the case................
....
BANN Stagg and Hen does.
BANN Blue Moon Trading.

The list grows bigger.
[quote][p][bold]Back and Beyond[/bold] wrote: Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?[/p][/quote]Yes Hen and Stag runs should be banned..!!!! How do you do that then ??? Get JA on the case................ .... BANN Stagg and Hen does. BANN Blue Moon Trading. The list grows bigger. capt spaulding
  • Score: 0

10:36am Sat 11 Aug 12

Garfie says...

I wrote about this in your letters some weeks ago, being fairly new to York I was shocked by what I was seeing every weekend in the centre of York. I am now certain that the weekly debauching has a powerfully negative impact on visitors to York, both national and international visitors. The rowdiness is intimidating to many, the obscenity and drunken behaviour make it difficult to walk the streets in some areas. I don`t know what the city can do about it except for more robust policing and by laws restricting street drinking, but do nothing and the city centre will become like many others in the country, a "no-go" zone for those not wanting to be verbally abused, jostled by louts and witnesses to obscene, drunken behaviour. What do these "visitors" bring to the city, as many have asked, other than income for the bars and clubs?
The Grange may have received poor hygiene ratings recently but he`s still right on this subject.
I wrote about this in your letters some weeks ago, being fairly new to York I was shocked by what I was seeing every weekend in the centre of York. I am now certain that the weekly debauching has a powerfully negative impact on visitors to York, both national and international visitors. The rowdiness is intimidating to many, the obscenity and drunken behaviour make it difficult to walk the streets in some areas. I don`t know what the city can do about it except for more robust policing and by laws restricting street drinking, but do nothing and the city centre will become like many others in the country, a "no-go" zone for those not wanting to be verbally abused, jostled by louts and witnesses to obscene, drunken behaviour. What do these "visitors" bring to the city, as many have asked, other than income for the bars and clubs? The Grange may have received poor hygiene ratings recently but he`s still right on this subject. Garfie
  • Score: 0

11:18am Sat 11 Aug 12

HRH Lady Muck says...

I believe the zero hygiene improvement notice will scare tourists away!
I believe the zero hygiene improvement notice will scare tourists away! HRH Lady Muck
  • Score: 0

11:34am Sat 11 Aug 12

Marc77 says...

I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties.
I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties. Marc77
  • Score: 0

11:41am Sat 11 Aug 12

again says...

For years York's had a bad reputation e.g. the notorious Micklegate Run and race days. I didn't know it could get worse but then I've not visited the town centre at a weekend for years. Quite the opposite, I head out! To the hills!
For years York's had a bad reputation e.g. the notorious Micklegate Run and race days. I didn't know it could get worse but then I've not visited the town centre at a weekend for years. Quite the opposite, I head out! To the hills! again
  • Score: 0

11:53am Sat 11 Aug 12

Back and Beyond says...

JC is obviously struggling in the current market however I suspect it has nothing to do with drunken Stag and Hen parties!

Rowdy, drunken behaviour in general has increased to an unacceptable level in the City, I however feel the blame should be placed at the pubs and bars in the centre rather than so called budget accomodation!!


http://companycheck.
co.uk/company/022642
48
JC is obviously struggling in the current market however I suspect it has nothing to do with drunken Stag and Hen parties! Rowdy, drunken behaviour in general has increased to an unacceptable level in the City, I however feel the blame should be placed at the pubs and bars in the centre rather than so called budget accomodation!! http://companycheck. co.uk/company/022642 48 Back and Beyond
  • Score: 0

12:31pm Sat 11 Aug 12

R'Marcus says...

Stag and hen nights must be banned in York, the sooner the better.
They do nothing for the city. The take their booze from cheaper dives, and the morons who come to York for hen and stage weekends lower the area.
Stag and hen nights must be banned in York, the sooner the better. They do nothing for the city. The take their booze from cheaper dives, and the morons who come to York for hen and stage weekends lower the area. R'Marcus
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Sat 11 Aug 12

notmyrealname says...

Foreign visitors i speak to are shocked by the drunken behaviour and stay away from the city centre in the evenings . Our city should be a historic and beautiful place in the evenings and weekends too. The hen and stag parties start on Saturday lunchtime. Its easy to stop it - just stop giving planning for more bars till 3am ( see other story )
Foreign visitors i speak to are shocked by the drunken behaviour and stay away from the city centre in the evenings . Our city should be a historic and beautiful place in the evenings and weekends too. The hen and stag parties start on Saturday lunchtime. Its easy to stop it - just stop giving planning for more bars till 3am ( see other story ) notmyrealname
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Sat 11 Aug 12

idlehousewife says...

Totally agree with what Jeremy Cassels is saying about the reputation of York suffering from these dreadful stag and hen parties. I would not venture out alone in York at night particularly in the Micklegate area where the drunken and often violent scenes are an absolute disgrace and can be frightening.I no longer drive through Micklegate as the unpredictable behaviour there is a danger to motorists. It amazes me that these visitors to our city have the money to fund the large amounts of alcohol which they consume.
I very much doubt that the cheap budget hotels are detracting trade from the Grange.What a ridiculous comment to make!
Totally agree with what Jeremy Cassels is saying about the reputation of York suffering from these dreadful stag and hen parties. I would not venture out alone in York at night particularly in the Micklegate area where the drunken and often violent scenes are an absolute disgrace and can be frightening.I no longer drive through Micklegate as the unpredictable behaviour there is a danger to motorists. It amazes me that these visitors to our city have the money to fund the large amounts of alcohol which they consume. I very much doubt that the cheap budget hotels are detracting trade from the Grange.What a ridiculous comment to make! idlehousewife
  • Score: 0

1:12pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Buzz Light-year says...

Leaving aside the business cynicism, the bloke has a point.

York is deeply unpleasant on a Saturday night, chock full of shouty louts of both sexes.

It definitely clashes with the restaurant/ theatre type image that York tries to project.
Imagine bringing a young family on holiday here, staying at the Park Inn and having to cross the jungle to take them out for meal at Meltons Too or the Blue Bike.

Don't think we should blame stag and hen specifically, just the culture that is fostered by advertising and sections of the media.

I used to do all that back in the day but I go out now and see grown adults yawping and carrying on. WTF?
Leaving aside the business cynicism, the bloke has a point. York is deeply unpleasant on a Saturday night, chock full of shouty louts of both sexes. It definitely clashes with the restaurant/ theatre type image that York tries to project. Imagine bringing a young family on holiday here, staying at the Park Inn and having to cross the jungle to take them out for meal at Meltons Too or the Blue Bike. Don't think we should blame stag and hen specifically, just the culture that is fostered by advertising and sections of the media. I used to do all that back in the day but I go out now and see grown adults yawping and carrying on. WTF? Buzz Light-year
  • Score: 0

1:39pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Funnyian says...

I also agree with Mr Cassels, i have to try and keep trouble down but you always find one in the party will have a pop and it's usualy the women
I also agree with Mr Cassels, i have to try and keep trouble down but you always find one in the party will have a pop and it's usualy the women Funnyian
  • Score: 0

1:49pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

It got an appalling rating

http://ratings.food.
gov.uk/search/en-GB?
bn=Grange+Hotel&ba=Y
ork&st=1
It got an appalling rating http://ratings.food. gov.uk/search/en-GB? bn=Grange+Hotel&ba=Y ork&st=1 Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

1:53pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Yorkphotographer says...

how exactly do you ban stag do's and hen nights?
how exactly do you ban stag do's and hen nights? Yorkphotographer
  • Score: 0

2:28pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Pedro says...

Many York hotels actively state that they don't accommodate "Stag and Hen" and that is about all you can do. You can't stop people coming in to the city centre unless you turn it in to a gated ring of steel! There is many reasons York turns ugly on an evening. Our position on the East Coast line is just as much to blame.
Many York hotels actively state that they don't accommodate "Stag and Hen" and that is about all you can do. You can't stop people coming in to the city centre unless you turn it in to a gated ring of steel! There is many reasons York turns ugly on an evening. Our position on the East Coast line is just as much to blame. Pedro
  • Score: 0

2:55pm Sat 11 Aug 12

lowbeam says...

Stag and hen parties have been around for years,deal with it,stop moaning,there are far worse people out at weekends!!!
Stag and hen parties have been around for years,deal with it,stop moaning,there are far worse people out at weekends!!! lowbeam
  • Score: 0

3:32pm Sat 11 Aug 12

bolero says...

Hag and Stench parties are not new to York. They have happened for years. Neither are they unique to York. It happens all over. The main fault lies surely in the licencing laws. Open all hours and the more you drink the more welcome you are. Nice bit of free publicity for the badly rated Grange Hotel though.
Hag and Stench parties are not new to York. They have happened for years. Neither are they unique to York. It happens all over. The main fault lies surely in the licencing laws. Open all hours and the more you drink the more welcome you are. Nice bit of free publicity for the badly rated Grange Hotel though. bolero
  • Score: 0

4:39pm Sat 11 Aug 12

mjr119 says...

Jeremy Cassell's argument is correct. Oversupply leads to attracting business that isn't good for anyone.

If your room rates are sensible you will attract sensible people who want to have an enjoyable time and spend on a variety of things (museums, restaurants, shopping and bars).

If your room rates are idiotic, then you will attract idiots. If they're not willing to spend much on their room, they're not going to spend much on anything else.

So of course over-supply of rooms encourages the wrong type of stag and hen parties. If the rooms are £50 more than another city, that's £50 less to spend on booze, so they'll go elsewhere.
Jeremy Cassell's argument is correct. Oversupply leads to attracting business that isn't good for anyone. If your room rates are sensible you will attract sensible people who want to have an enjoyable time and spend on a variety of things (museums, restaurants, shopping and bars). If your room rates are idiotic, then you will attract idiots. If they're not willing to spend much on their room, they're not going to spend much on anything else. So of course over-supply of rooms encourages the wrong type of stag and hen parties. If the rooms are £50 more than another city, that's £50 less to spend on booze, so they'll go elsewhere. mjr119
  • Score: 0

5:58pm Sat 11 Aug 12

perplexed says...

For a moment I thought Mr Cassell was going to include race goers who as well know bring a distinctive air of respectability to the city. Not !
For a moment I thought Mr Cassell was going to include race goers who as well know bring a distinctive air of respectability to the city. Not ! perplexed
  • Score: 0

6:01pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

BANN Stagg and Hen does.
BANN Blue Moon Trading.


BANN = an ancient French word meaning a notice or proclaimation, as in banns of marriage.

BAN = to outlaw or prohibit.

The problem is not stag or hen parties, but a minority of those participating in them who become drunk and abusive to innocent bystanders. And a lot of the people who are drunk and abusive to innocent bystanders in York on Friday and Saturday nights have nothing to do with stag and hen parties. These people are the reason why I stay away from the city centre on Friday and Saturday nights, and have done ever since I moved to York in 1999.

The only way to stop this is, quite simply, zero tolerance law enforcement for drunk and disorderly behaviour towards innocent third parties in public, such that anyone who comes to York, gets drunk and abuses strangers knows that they're going to come away with a criminal record. The problem is that this takes serious police resources to achieve, and the powers that be believe that the money is better spent on equality and diversity officers, etc. Take away cheap hotel rooms, as this vested interest proprietor of expensive hotel rooms is calling for, will simply punish the innocent and, as mjr119 points out, move the guilty elsewhere.
[quote]BANN Stagg and Hen does. BANN Blue Moon Trading.[/quote] BANN = an ancient French word meaning a notice or proclaimation, as in banns of marriage. BAN = to outlaw or prohibit. The problem is not stag or hen parties, but a minority of those participating in them who become drunk and abusive to innocent bystanders. And a lot of the people who are drunk and abusive to innocent bystanders in York on Friday and Saturday nights have nothing to do with stag and hen parties. These people are the reason why I stay away from the city centre on Friday and Saturday nights, and have done ever since I moved to York in 1999. The only way to stop this is, quite simply, zero tolerance law enforcement for drunk and disorderly behaviour towards innocent third parties in public, such that anyone who comes to York, gets drunk and abuses strangers knows that they're going to come away with a criminal record. The problem is that this takes serious police resources to achieve, and the powers that be believe that the money is better spent on equality and diversity officers, etc. Take away cheap hotel rooms, as this vested interest proprietor of expensive hotel rooms is calling for, will simply punish the innocent and, as mjr119 points out, move the guilty elsewhere. Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

6:12pm Sat 11 Aug 12

perfidiousalbion says...

I totally agree with Mr Cassell's concern about the harm that hen and stag parties are doing to York, though I suspect his reasoning about the number of new hotels is driven by his own self interest.

I am a member of the Association of Volunteer Guides in York and frequently have visitors tell me they no longer want to visit York at weekends because of the anti social behaviour of hen and stag parties in the city centre. I also now try to avoid the city centre on Friday and Saturday evenings and would certainly never bring friends into central York at weekends.

I can't unfortunately see how this problem can be solved. While these anti social groups have money to spend in York and local hotels and bars are happy to relieve them of it the rest of us are stuck with the situation.
I totally agree with Mr Cassell's concern about the harm that hen and stag parties are doing to York, though I suspect his reasoning about the number of new hotels is driven by his own self interest. I am a member of the Association of Volunteer Guides in York and frequently have visitors tell me they no longer want to visit York at weekends because of the anti social behaviour of hen and stag parties in the city centre. I also now try to avoid the city centre on Friday and Saturday evenings and would certainly never bring friends into central York at weekends. I can't unfortunately see how this problem can be solved. While these anti social groups have money to spend in York and local hotels and bars are happy to relieve them of it the rest of us are stuck with the situation. perfidiousalbion
  • Score: 0

6:15pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Valeman says...

I don't know about the impact of stag and hen parties, but for some years now York City Centre has been a no-go area on Friday and Saturday nights. I've been coming to York from the West of Scotland annually for well over twenty years and it's much worse now than it was back in the 80s and 90s. I feel much more comfortable in Glasgow on a weekend night than I do in York, which is rather sad.
I don't know about the impact of stag and hen parties, but for some years now York City Centre has been a no-go area on Friday and Saturday nights. I've been coming to York from the West of Scotland annually for well over twenty years and it's much worse now than it was back in the 80s and 90s. I feel much more comfortable in Glasgow on a weekend night than I do in York, which is rather sad. Valeman
  • Score: 0

7:36pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

I can't unfortunately see how this problem can be solved.


One way would be to make it easier and cheaper to visit York by car in the evening. Thanks to the cost and difficulty of parking in the city and the fact that the Park and Rides don't operate late into the evenings (and that you're not allowed to park in them overnight), the only people in York on weekend evenings are those who have got there by public transport, live locally or are staying locally: in other words, people who are unrestricted as to how much they drink. If there were more people who'd arrived by car and thus were not drinking any significant amount, there would be less overall tolerance of people who were blind drunk, more peer pressure to behave and more leisure activities on offer in the city centre that were not focused almost solely around drinking.
[quote]I can't unfortunately see how this problem can be solved.[/quote] One way would be to make it easier and cheaper to visit York by car in the evening. Thanks to the cost and difficulty of parking in the city and the fact that the Park and Rides don't operate late into the evenings (and that you're not allowed to park in them overnight), the only people in York on weekend evenings are those who have got there by public transport, live locally or are staying locally: in other words, people who are unrestricted as to how much they drink. If there were more people who'd arrived by car and thus were not drinking any significant amount, there would be less overall tolerance of people who were blind drunk, more peer pressure to behave and more leisure activities on offer in the city centre that were not focused almost solely around drinking. Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

7:43pm Sat 11 Aug 12

bolero says...

perplexed wrote:
For a moment I thought Mr Cassell was going to include race goers who as well know bring a distinctive air of respectability to the city. Not !
Could be something to do with him being associated with the Newmarket Jockey club perhaps.
[quote][p][bold]perplexed[/bold] wrote: For a moment I thought Mr Cassell was going to include race goers who as well know bring a distinctive air of respectability to the city. Not ![/p][/quote]Could be something to do with him being associated with the Newmarket Jockey club perhaps. bolero
  • Score: 0

7:50pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Buzz Light-year says...

I was hanging out in the Guildhall area today at about 5pm.
There were buskers and families, it was sunny.
I became increasingly aware of more and more groups of loud, shouty, "dressed up" people passing through.
A relatively small group of blokes turned up singing and chanting. Mums were shepherding their kids away and looking fearful.
Amazing how they changed the atmosphere in the square for the wider public.

Friday and Saturday have a watershed.
I was hanging out in the Guildhall area today at about 5pm. There were buskers and families, it was sunny. I became increasingly aware of more and more groups of loud, shouty, "dressed up" people passing through. A relatively small group of blokes turned up singing and chanting. Mums were shepherding their kids away and looking fearful. Amazing how they changed the atmosphere in the square for the wider public. Friday and Saturday have a watershed. Buzz Light-year
  • Score: 0

9:10pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Charles Longbottom says...

Marc77 wrote:
I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties.
In that they enjoyed the fun and experience ?
[quote][p][bold]Marc77[/bold] wrote: I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties.[/p][/quote]In that they enjoyed the fun and experience ? Charles Longbottom
  • Score: 0

9:14pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Charles Longbottom says...

Charles Longbottom wrote:
Marc77 wrote:
I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties.
In that they enjoyed the fun and experience ?
PS I 've never been to January, where is it please?
[quote][p][bold]Charles Longbottom[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marc77[/bold] wrote: I was on holiday in January and was chatting to an elderly couple. When I said I was from York the first thing they mentioned about York was the stag and hen parties.[/p][/quote]In that they enjoyed the fun and experience ?[/p][/quote]PS I 've never been to January, where is it please? Charles Longbottom
  • Score: 0

9:31pm Sat 11 Aug 12

YSTClinguist says...

Buzz Light-year wrote:
I was hanging out in the Guildhall area today at about 5pm.
There were buskers and families, it was sunny.
I became increasingly aware of more and more groups of loud, shouty, "dressed up" people passing through.
A relatively small group of blokes turned up singing and chanting. Mums were shepherding their kids away and looking fearful.
Amazing how they changed the atmosphere in the square for the wider public.

Friday and Saturday have a watershed.
I remember when they used to pour down Micklegate about 1900hrs. Most families and day workers had made their way home by then. Then it was earlier and earlier, 1730 and then 1700hrs. The day I was with my kids in St Helens Square about 1545hrs and we faced fancy dressed groups of all-male and all-female partygoers coming down Coney Street, rowdy, shrieking, swearing and clutching tinnies and cocktails was the last straw.

Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes. Our families also shouldn't be put in the situation where creeping alcohol issues make town centre during the day a no-go zone. I can understand why there are creeping no-alcohol zones in many towns and cities nowadays.
[quote][p][bold]Buzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: I was hanging out in the Guildhall area today at about 5pm. There were buskers and families, it was sunny. I became increasingly aware of more and more groups of loud, shouty, "dressed up" people passing through. A relatively small group of blokes turned up singing and chanting. Mums were shepherding their kids away and looking fearful. Amazing how they changed the atmosphere in the square for the wider public. Friday and Saturday have a watershed.[/p][/quote]I remember when they used to pour down Micklegate about 1900hrs. Most families and day workers had made their way home by then. Then it was earlier and earlier, 1730 and then 1700hrs. The day I was with my kids in St Helens Square about 1545hrs and we faced fancy dressed groups of all-male and all-female partygoers coming down Coney Street, rowdy, shrieking, swearing and clutching tinnies and cocktails was the last straw. Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes. Our families also shouldn't be put in the situation where creeping alcohol issues make town centre during the day a no-go zone. I can understand why there are creeping no-alcohol zones in many towns and cities nowadays. YSTClinguist
  • Score: 0

9:39pm Sat 11 Aug 12

flesh_tuxedo says...

You have to be mad to go into the city centre on a saturday to do shopping with all the scumbags in from Leeds and Teesside. A tin hat is required crossing the bridge near Yates'.

The council need to follow the example of cricket grounds and have cooling off slots e.g. no alcohol sales in the city centre from say 3pm to 6pm on a saturday.
You have to be mad to go into the city centre on a saturday to do shopping with all the scumbags in from Leeds and Teesside. A tin hat is required crossing the bridge near Yates'. The council need to follow the example of cricket grounds and have cooling off slots e.g. no alcohol sales in the city centre from say 3pm to 6pm on a saturday. flesh_tuxedo
  • Score: 0

1:13am Sun 12 Aug 12

Peppa07 says...

The entire country is awash with drunks. For decades we've tolerated drunkenness. Cheap booze, cool to be out your head, no proper education about the associated risks, and a bizarre link between drunkenness and aggressive behaviour. The culture is sick. Drunks cost the NHS a fortune with often self inflicted injuries. There should be a proper debate about how to put alcohol back in its box.
The entire country is awash with drunks. For decades we've tolerated drunkenness. Cheap booze, cool to be out your head, no proper education about the associated risks, and a bizarre link between drunkenness and aggressive behaviour. The culture is sick. Drunks cost the NHS a fortune with often self inflicted injuries. There should be a proper debate about how to put alcohol back in its box. Peppa07
  • Score: 0

1:14am Sun 12 Aug 12

Peppa07 says...

The entire country is awash with drunks. For decades we've tolerated drunkenness. Cheap booze, cool to be out your head, no proper education about the associated risks, and a bizarre link between drunkenness and aggressive behaviour. The culture is sick. Drunks cost the NHS a fortune with often self inflicted injuries. There should be a proper debate about how to put alcohol back in its box.
The entire country is awash with drunks. For decades we've tolerated drunkenness. Cheap booze, cool to be out your head, no proper education about the associated risks, and a bizarre link between drunkenness and aggressive behaviour. The culture is sick. Drunks cost the NHS a fortune with often self inflicted injuries. There should be a proper debate about how to put alcohol back in its box. Peppa07
  • Score: 0

9:54am Sun 12 Aug 12

HorsesHead says...

Alas have to agree but not a problem isolated to York. Many towns are like "Wild West Towns" on a Saturday night, particularly those which attract people from outside the locality. Sadly reflects today's social behaviour issues. A friend from London came up for a weekend last year and was amazed how a city which was beautiful and tranquil during the day could be transformed to what has been well described in a matter of minutes. Even York station can be a no go area at times as they make their way home.
Alas have to agree but not a problem isolated to York. Many towns are like "Wild West Towns" on a Saturday night, particularly those which attract people from outside the locality. Sadly reflects today's social behaviour issues. A friend from London came up for a weekend last year and was amazed how a city which was beautiful and tranquil during the day could be transformed to what has been well described in a matter of minutes. Even York station can be a no go area at times as they make their way home. HorsesHead
  • Score: 0

10:10am Sun 12 Aug 12

Dennis.Dart says...

York Races are much worse than the odd stag / hen partys. races bring drunken thugs every time a meeting runs. stags and hens come to enjoy their night and rarely cause problems.
HOWEVER races monsters always cause problems, if there is a race meeting on I will NOT go in to town,
ban the races thats what say ;-)
York Races are much worse than the odd stag / hen partys. races bring drunken thugs every time a meeting runs. stags and hens come to enjoy their night and rarely cause problems. HOWEVER races monsters always cause problems, if there is a race meeting on I will NOT go in to town, ban the races thats what say ;-) Dennis.Dart
  • Score: 0

10:26am Sun 12 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes.

Wrong they should also be policing the city centre, it's what they are paid to do. In North Yorkshire crime and disorder is out of control, yet the Press keep printing their press releases in which they brag how good they are. They are not they are pathetic.
[quote]Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes.[/quote] Wrong they should also be policing the city centre, it's what they are paid to do. In North Yorkshire crime and disorder is out of control, yet the Press keep printing their press releases in which they brag how good they are. They are not they are pathetic. Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

11:20am Sun 12 Aug 12

heworth.28 says...

Sillybillies wrote:
Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes.

Wrong they should also be policing the city centre, it's what they are paid to do. In North Yorkshire crime and disorder is out of control, yet the Press keep printing their press releases in which they brag how good they are. They are not they are pathetic.
How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country.
[quote][p][bold]Sillybillies[/bold] wrote: [quote]Our police officers have got better things to do than be stationed through town to deal with this problem. Property and person crime is rising in areas and any officers deployed into the centre to deal with alcohol issues mean less officers elsewhere protecting the community and their homes.[/quote] Wrong they should also be policing the city centre, it's what they are paid to do. In North Yorkshire crime and disorder is out of control, yet the Press keep printing their press releases in which they brag how good they are. They are not they are pathetic.[/p][/quote]How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country. heworth.28
  • Score: 0

11:42am Sun 12 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country.

Rubbish, what do you think this story is all about, and all the other stories regarding disorderly behaviour, thefts and arsons throughout the area.

Don't quote fiddled police statistics at me, crime is not down, people just don't bother reporting it to one of the worst police forces in the country.
[quote]How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country.[/quote] Rubbish, what do you think this story is all about, and all the other stories regarding disorderly behaviour, thefts and arsons throughout the area. Don't quote fiddled police statistics at me, crime is not down, people just don't bother reporting it to one of the worst police forces in the country. Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

11:47am Sun 12 Aug 12

Hoofarted says...

Ban Hen and Stag parties entering the City walls and.. Ban the Races and any parties if they don't appear the kind of party that fits into York's elitist snobbery guide.

Let's also re close the Bar walls and only allow in them who fit the ESC (Elitist Snobbery Criteria).
Ban Hen and Stag parties entering the City walls and.. Ban the Races and any parties if they don't appear the kind of party that fits into York's elitist snobbery guide. Let's also re close the Bar walls and only allow in them who fit the ESC (Elitist Snobbery Criteria). Hoofarted
  • Score: 0

12:59pm Sun 12 Aug 12

TravelQueen says...

I work in Low Ousegate and every Saturday we have a bet to see how long it will take the police to be outside the slug and lettuce breaking up some rowdy stag and hens fighting. Its just awful.
They use our doorway as a shelter from the rain for smoking, chatting on mobiles and on an occassion men using it as a toilet, and this is at 1pm!
I work in Low Ousegate and every Saturday we have a bet to see how long it will take the police to be outside the slug and lettuce breaking up some rowdy stag and hens fighting. Its just awful. They use our doorway as a shelter from the rain for smoking, chatting on mobiles and on an occassion men using it as a toilet, and this is at 1pm! TravelQueen
  • Score: 0

5:05pm Sun 12 Aug 12

monkeyhanger says...

To be fair,if you stay the right side of the river its ok,once on the darkside it is a horrid place.Think that decent tourists should be advised where to go by hosts.Most citys are the same,although I do dislike the stag and hen events,however what can be done to stop it?
To be fair,if you stay the right side of the river its ok,once on the darkside it is a horrid place.Think that decent tourists should be advised where to go by hosts.Most citys are the same,although I do dislike the stag and hen events,however what can be done to stop it? monkeyhanger
  • Score: 0

6:05pm Sun 12 Aug 12

oi oi savaloy says...

just ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy! simple!!

how on earth are they gonna moniter this? (remember when all coach parties used to be out of brid by 6pm? now no one goes there at all drinking anymore)

this is freedom of movement, if people want to go to another town for a day out on the razz, why not!

i personally think its a bit out of control but there you go, this is the society that big business and politicians have created!

just take a look at swinegate 25 years ago practically derelict, apart from oscars and the old world side door! now its pumping with late night bars (at least 13 or 14)

take a look at rougier street back then as well, 6 pubs that shut their doors at 11pm, n ow its pumping till summat like 4 am in the morning, and all the places are big business owned clubs!

politicians and businesssmen created this mess
just ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy! simple!! how on earth are they gonna moniter this? (remember when all coach parties used to be out of brid by 6pm? now no one goes there at all drinking anymore) this is freedom of movement, if people want to go to another town for a day out on the razz, why not! i personally think its a bit out of control but there you go, this is the society that big business and politicians have created! just take a look at swinegate 25 years ago practically derelict, apart from oscars and the old world side door! now its pumping with late night bars (at least 13 or 14) take a look at rougier street back then as well, 6 pubs that shut their doors at 11pm, n ow its pumping till summat like 4 am in the morning, and all the places are big business owned clubs! politicians and businesssmen created this mess oi oi savaloy
  • Score: 0

6:44pm Sun 12 Aug 12

TERRIER3 says...

i try to avoid ousegate on saturday afternoons, full of drunken idiots looking for any excuse to fight, and how someone isnt knocked down and killed every week is incredible, they are a disgrace and they ruin the city, i used to go out drinking every saturday with my mates but back then you didnt bother innocent folk out and about. its only a matter of time before people dont bother coming back to york, but like previous posts have said its not unique to york, im afraid its our culture, if you go to spain the only idiots about are British, is it any wonder the rest of europe hate us, we are a disgrace
i try to avoid ousegate on saturday afternoons, full of drunken idiots looking for any excuse to fight, and how someone isnt knocked down and killed every week is incredible, they are a disgrace and they ruin the city, i used to go out drinking every saturday with my mates but back then you didnt bother innocent folk out and about. its only a matter of time before people dont bother coming back to york, but like previous posts have said its not unique to york, im afraid its our culture, if you go to spain the only idiots about are British, is it any wonder the rest of europe hate us, we are a disgrace TERRIER3
  • Score: 0

8:46pm Sun 12 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

just ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy!


No-one is proposing to ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy, only behaviour that reduces the quality of life for their fellow citizens.

As far as I'm concerned anyone is welcome to drink as much as they like, but the moment the consequences of that drinking start to affect innocent third parties - be that spitting or shouting four-letter words at people in the street, or injuring people through drunk driving - then that needs to be dealt with.

And incidentally, I wouldn't mind guessing that a lot of the people responsible for this behaviour do not work for a living and probably never have. The kind of person that gets drunk and abusive on a regular basis is not the kind of person who is likely to hold down a job. Any significant reduction in benefit payments would be very bad news for a lot of pubs in the city.

but like previous posts have said its not unique to york, im afraid its our culture


It's not unique, but there are specific factors in York that are making the problem worse than it is in many similar cities. These include the high concentration of pubs and bars in the city centre, fact that it is very difficult and expensive to come in to York for an evening by car (a side effect of which has been to push the shops and things that non-drinking families like to visit out to ring road malls such as Clifton Moor and Monk's Cross) and the almost complete absence of any meaningful law enforcement of drink-related antisocial behaviour in the city centre in the evenings.
[quote]just ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy![/quote] No-one is proposing to ban anything that people who work for a living enjoy, only behaviour that reduces the quality of life for their fellow citizens. As far as I'm concerned anyone is welcome to drink as much as they like, but the moment the consequences of that drinking start to affect innocent third parties - be that spitting or shouting four-letter words at people in the street, or injuring people through drunk driving - then that needs to be dealt with. And incidentally, I wouldn't mind guessing that a lot of the people responsible for this behaviour do not work for a living and probably never have. The kind of person that gets drunk and abusive on a regular basis is not the kind of person who is likely to hold down a job. Any significant reduction in benefit payments would be very bad news for a lot of pubs in the city. [quote]but like previous posts have said its not unique to york, im afraid its our culture[/quote] It's not unique, but there are specific factors in York that are making the problem worse than it is in many similar cities. These include the high concentration of pubs and bars in the city centre, fact that it is very difficult and expensive to come in to York for an evening by car (a side effect of which has been to push the shops and things that non-drinking families like to visit out to ring road malls such as Clifton Moor and Monk's Cross) and the almost complete absence of any meaningful law enforcement of drink-related antisocial behaviour in the city centre in the evenings. Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

12:56am Mon 13 Aug 12

Silver says...

Most of us don't like the idea but well banning it isn't the option perhaps encouraging it in other areas more suited to the pursuit of stag and hen do's. They come here for cheap rooms and cheap drinks encourage other areas to do the same and it'll dilute and be manageable.
Most of us don't like the idea but well banning it isn't the option perhaps encouraging it in other areas more suited to the pursuit of stag and hen do's. They come here for cheap rooms and cheap drinks encourage other areas to do the same and it'll dilute and be manageable. Silver
  • Score: 0

9:18am Mon 13 Aug 12

WhatuCiswhatuget says...

Back and Beyond wrote:
Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?
I read all these posts with great interest however I can’t help noticing that this has nothing to do with the hygiene issues at the Grange and if my memory serves me right if it was that bad surely they would have been prosecuted or being considered for persecution like the other establishments were. Let’s get everything into prospective here!
[quote][p][bold]Back and Beyond[/bold] wrote: Was it the Grange Hotel that got a very low food hygiene rating?[/p][/quote]I read all these posts with great interest however I can’t help noticing that this has nothing to do with the hygiene issues at the Grange and if my memory serves me right if it was that bad surely they would have been prosecuted or being considered for persecution like the other establishments were. Let’s get everything into prospective here! WhatuCiswhatuget
  • Score: 0

9:24am Mon 13 Aug 12

ReginaldBiscuit says...

By Minerva and Juno, there were some zombie hens and swamp donkey stags out around Eboracum last week. Charge them and make them register for use of the city.

I would.

ICANHAZCHARGEBURGER
By Minerva and Juno, there were some zombie hens and swamp donkey stags out around Eboracum last week. Charge them and make them register for use of the city. I would. ICANHAZCHARGEBURGER ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

11:49am Mon 13 Aug 12

Fat Harry says...

The guy from the Grange is clearly worried that his below-par hotel is not competing very well in a difficult economic climate.

Onto the substantive issue, are not stag and hen parties tourists too? They spend in the restaurants, bars, and hotels and must therefore be at least as good for the city as, say, the Olympics.

Self-appointed "respectable" people have been stressing about drunken behaviour in central York for centuries.

If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds.

Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs, York is still a lively place with a variety of things to do. I find the city centre on a weekend night is not to my taste any more (getting old) but can still find plenty to do and plenty of quieter boozers for a more, ahem, reflective eveing's entertainment.
The guy from the Grange is clearly worried that his below-par hotel is not competing very well in a difficult economic climate. Onto the substantive issue, are not stag and hen parties tourists too? They spend in the restaurants, bars, and hotels and must therefore be at least as good for the city as, say, the Olympics. Self-appointed "respectable" people have been stressing about drunken behaviour in central York for centuries. If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds. Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs, York is still a lively place with a variety of things to do. I find the city centre on a weekend night is not to my taste any more (getting old) but can still find plenty to do and plenty of quieter boozers for a more, ahem, reflective eveing's entertainment. Fat Harry
  • Score: 0

12:32pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Bloater says...

One way to tackle this is to prevent the streets from becoming dominated by a drinking culture. Bars consciously advertise their presence in various ways, such as playing loud music, having open doors, allowing drinkers to spill into the street. That not only alienates those who are looking for other things, but encourages drinkers to regard the whole neighbourhood as part of their territory. This in turn further drives away other people, forces other activities out of the area or to close their doors, social controls break down leading to urinating in the street and doorways, litter and vandalism.
These things can all be controlled by the use of licensing powers and normal policing without banning hen and stag parties or driving bars out of business, and everyone benefits.
One way to tackle this is to prevent the streets from becoming dominated by a drinking culture. Bars consciously advertise their presence in various ways, such as playing loud music, having open doors, allowing drinkers to spill into the street. That not only alienates those who are looking for other things, but encourages drinkers to regard the whole neighbourhood as part of their territory. This in turn further drives away other people, forces other activities out of the area or to close their doors, social controls break down leading to urinating in the street and doorways, litter and vandalism. These things can all be controlled by the use of licensing powers and normal policing without banning hen and stag parties or driving bars out of business, and everyone benefits. Bloater
  • Score: 0

1:11pm Mon 13 Aug 12

heworth.28 says...

Sillybillies wrote:
How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country.
Rubbish, what do you think this story is all about, and all the other stories regarding disorderly behaviour, thefts and arsons throughout the area. Don't quote fiddled police statistics at me, crime is not down, people just don't bother reporting it to one of the worst police forces in the country.
Stats-based Policing is one of the biggest contributors to low-level crime going out of control so I'm not inclined to use any figures the Police produce to back up any point either way! My opinion (here it is again: MY OPINION) on the matter is based on both anecdotal and first-hand evidence, having visited and known people from pretty much every big city in the country. Try living somewhere like South Wales or even Leeds if you think it's bad here...
[quote][p][bold]Sillybillies[/bold] wrote: [quote]How on earth is crime and disorder "out of control" in North Yorkshire? It's easily one of the quietest and safest parts of the country.[/quote] Rubbish, what do you think this story is all about, and all the other stories regarding disorderly behaviour, thefts and arsons throughout the area. Don't quote fiddled police statistics at me, crime is not down, people just don't bother reporting it to one of the worst police forces in the country.[/p][/quote]Stats-based Policing is one of the biggest contributors to low-level crime going out of control so I'm not inclined to use any figures the Police produce to back up any point either way! My opinion (here it is again: MY OPINION) on the matter is based on both anecdotal and first-hand evidence, having visited and known people from pretty much every big city in the country. Try living somewhere like South Wales or even Leeds if you think it's bad here... heworth.28
  • Score: 0

2:35pm Mon 13 Aug 12

AngryandFrustrated says...

Mr Cassel has a point - I live in the city centre and I have noticed over the last 6-8 years or so that the amount of anti-social behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night has increased significantly - I live near to a hotel who over this period have opened a "budget" wing - since then the amount of stag and hen parties staying there has gone up dramatically.

In the good old days, a hen or stag do would be a one day or night event - nowadays, they go on for a whole weekend - all you have to do is be near the train station on a Friday eve or Saturday morning and you can see them all streaming into York.

The problems are not just the budget hotels tho' - some of the responsibility has to lie with the bars and clubs that serve them whilst drunk - when I worked in a pub, to serve someone who was drunk was a no-no - nowadays, it seems routine. The Council should impose a zero tolerance approach to any bar or club that flouts this part of the legislation.

York had a terrible reputation for violence etc in the early -mid '80's - then, there was local direction in force on a Friday and Saturday eve - whilst pubs could sell up to closing (in those days 11pm was the only time for last orders!), if you weren't in a pub or bar by 10am - that was it. No city centre establishment could admit anyone after that time. It worked and eventually the police disappeared from every street corner. Maybe they should impose a similar thing again - it wouldn't be popular but it would make an immediate difference.

Ultimately, York has to decide whether or not it wants tourists and residents alike to be subjected to the shameful behaviour that is witnessed on a weekend night in some parts of the city.
Mr Cassel has a point - I live in the city centre and I have noticed over the last 6-8 years or so that the amount of anti-social behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night has increased significantly - I live near to a hotel who over this period have opened a "budget" wing - since then the amount of stag and hen parties staying there has gone up dramatically. In the good old days, a hen or stag do would be a one day or night event - nowadays, they go on for a whole weekend - all you have to do is be near the train station on a Friday eve or Saturday morning and you can see them all streaming into York. The problems are not just the budget hotels tho' - some of the responsibility has to lie with the bars and clubs that serve them whilst drunk - when I worked in a pub, to serve someone who was drunk was a no-no - nowadays, it seems routine. The Council should impose a zero tolerance approach to any bar or club that flouts this part of the legislation. York had a terrible reputation for violence etc in the early -mid '80's - then, there was local direction in force on a Friday and Saturday eve - whilst pubs could sell up to closing (in those days 11pm was the only time for last orders!), if you weren't in a pub or bar by 10am - that was it. No city centre establishment could admit anyone after that time. It worked and eventually the police disappeared from every street corner. Maybe they should impose a similar thing again - it wouldn't be popular but it would make an immediate difference. Ultimately, York has to decide whether or not it wants tourists and residents alike to be subjected to the shameful behaviour that is witnessed on a weekend night in some parts of the city. AngryandFrustrated
  • Score: 0

2:55pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Fat Harry says...

Bloater wrote:
One way to tackle this is to prevent the streets from becoming dominated by a drinking culture. Bars consciously advertise their presence in various ways, such as playing loud music, having open doors, allowing drinkers to spill into the street. That not only alienates those who are looking for other things, but encourages drinkers to regard the whole neighbourhood as part of their territory. This in turn further drives away other people, forces other activities out of the area or to close their doors, social controls break down leading to urinating in the street and doorways, litter and vandalism. These things can all be controlled by the use of licensing powers and normal policing without banning hen and stag parties or driving bars out of business, and everyone benefits.
Good point.
[quote][p][bold]Bloater[/bold] wrote: One way to tackle this is to prevent the streets from becoming dominated by a drinking culture. Bars consciously advertise their presence in various ways, such as playing loud music, having open doors, allowing drinkers to spill into the street. That not only alienates those who are looking for other things, but encourages drinkers to regard the whole neighbourhood as part of their territory. This in turn further drives away other people, forces other activities out of the area or to close their doors, social controls break down leading to urinating in the street and doorways, litter and vandalism. These things can all be controlled by the use of licensing powers and normal policing without banning hen and stag parties or driving bars out of business, and everyone benefits.[/p][/quote]Good point. Fat Harry
  • Score: 0

3:18pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds. Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs...


The problem with that is the slippery slope syndrome. At some point, a line has to be drawn. If isn't, then the less pleasant side of human nature will get out of control and the end result will be that York becomes like Mogadishu. If that risk didn't exist, then there would be no need for any police or any criminal law system at all - society would be able to determine and enforce reasonable behaviour through informal peer pressure alone.

I was not born yesterday and realise that there are some people whose idea of a satisfying leisure activity is to get very drunk and boisterous. That in itself is not a problem. However, when they call me a 'f***ing queer' for walking home from work with a male colleague (which happened regularly when I worked at City Screen from 1999-2001) or spit at me while waiting for a cab to the station outside my home at 5am on a Sunday morning (which happened to me a couple of weeks ago), that crosses the line, because their drunkenness is having a direct impact on the quality of life of innocent third parties. If objecting to being on the receiving end of that is priggishness, then is objecting to having your car vandalised or the phone box in your street used for drug dealing being a prig, too?

In fact, a great many people have taken your advice and moved, white flight style, to the biscuit tin villages in the Vale of York, including a friend who moved with her family from Grosvenor Terrace to Tollerton last year. As a result of that, two people who previously walked to work are doing a 30-mile round trip commute, thereby adding to the traffic problems that are discussed endlessly on this site. So dismissing people who object to antisocial behavior as prigs can invoke the law of unintended consequences in unexpected ways.

Rudolph Guiliani realised that lines had to be drawn when he introduced his 'zero tolerance' policing policy, with the result that huge parts of a city that were previously no-go areas for law abiding human beings were opened up again, new jobs were created and all sorts of other benefits followed. York now is nothing like as bad as New York was in the '70s, but it certainly has a major problem.
[quote]If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds. Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs...[/quote] The problem with that is the slippery slope syndrome. At some point, a line has to be drawn. If isn't, then the less pleasant side of human nature will get out of control and the end result will be that York becomes like Mogadishu. If that risk didn't exist, then there would be no need for any police or any criminal law system at all - society would be able to determine and enforce reasonable behaviour through informal peer pressure alone. I was not born yesterday and realise that there are some people whose idea of a satisfying leisure activity is to get very drunk and boisterous. That in itself is not a problem. However, when they call me a 'f***ing queer' for walking home from work with a male colleague (which happened regularly when I worked at City Screen from 1999-2001) or spit at me while waiting for a cab to the station outside my home at 5am on a Sunday morning (which happened to me a couple of weeks ago), that crosses the line, because their drunkenness is having a direct impact on the quality of life of innocent third parties. If objecting to being on the receiving end of that is priggishness, then is objecting to having your car vandalised or the phone box in your street used for drug dealing being a prig, too? In fact, a great many people have taken your advice and moved, white flight style, to the biscuit tin villages in the Vale of York, including a friend who moved with her family from Grosvenor Terrace to Tollerton last year. As a result of that, two people who previously walked to work are doing a 30-mile round trip commute, thereby adding to the traffic problems that are discussed endlessly on this site. So dismissing people who object to antisocial behavior as prigs can invoke the law of unintended consequences in unexpected ways. Rudolph Guiliani realised that lines had to be drawn when he introduced his 'zero tolerance' policing policy, with the result that huge parts of a city that were previously no-go areas for law abiding human beings were opened up again, new jobs were created and all sorts of other benefits followed. York now is nothing like as bad as New York was in the '70s, but it certainly has a major problem. Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

3:56pm Mon 13 Aug 12

king-albert says...

Don`t believe "crime" is down in York it is just counted up differently - missing out the fixed penalty notices.
Stag and hen groups are encouraged by allowing excessive drinking on the trains coming to the city - alcohol consumption being allowed anywhere on the station and on the city streets.
Many people are obviously drunk before they even get to the hotels.

Shame there is no-one prevent such behavior !!!
Don`t believe "crime" is down in York it is just counted up differently - missing out the fixed penalty notices. Stag and hen groups are encouraged by allowing excessive drinking on the trains coming to the city - alcohol consumption being allowed anywhere on the station and on the city streets. Many people are obviously drunk before they even get to the hotels. Shame there is no-one prevent such behavior !!! king-albert
  • Score: 0

3:58pm Mon 13 Aug 12

AngryandFrustrated says...

Fat Harry wrote:
The guy from the Grange is clearly worried that his below-par hotel is not competing very well in a difficult economic climate. Onto the substantive issue, are not stag and hen parties tourists too? They spend in the restaurants, bars, and hotels and must therefore be at least as good for the city as, say, the Olympics. Self-appointed "respectable" people have been stressing about drunken behaviour in central York for centuries. If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds. Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs, York is still a lively place with a variety of things to do. I find the city centre on a weekend night is not to my taste any more (getting old) but can still find plenty to do and plenty of quieter boozers for a more, ahem, reflective eveing's entertainment.
I really hope that you are not the muppet that this posting makes you out to be.

I don't want to live on the lid of a biscuit tin. I want to live in a place where there is vibrancy and life but also where people treat each other and themselves with respect and dignity.

If, by objecting to drunks staggering around Ousegate/Micklegate/
Rougier Street and falling in the street, by objecting to people p*ssing against my front door, by objecting to being woken up at 4am by p*ssheads fighting outside my house, by objecting to dropped food and puke in the street and by objecting to being verbally abused (and physically threatened), that makes me a minority prig then I am VERY HAPPY TO BE ONE!!!

Anybody want to join me in being a minority prig?!!!
[quote][p][bold]Fat Harry[/bold] wrote: The guy from the Grange is clearly worried that his below-par hotel is not competing very well in a difficult economic climate. Onto the substantive issue, are not stag and hen parties tourists too? They spend in the restaurants, bars, and hotels and must therefore be at least as good for the city as, say, the Olympics. Self-appointed "respectable" people have been stressing about drunken behaviour in central York for centuries. If you want to make your home on the lid of a biscuit tin, go and live in the Cotswolds. Despite the best efforts of a minority of prigs, York is still a lively place with a variety of things to do. I find the city centre on a weekend night is not to my taste any more (getting old) but can still find plenty to do and plenty of quieter boozers for a more, ahem, reflective eveing's entertainment.[/p][/quote]I really hope that you are not the muppet that this posting makes you out to be. I don't want to live on the lid of a biscuit tin. I want to live in a place where there is vibrancy and life but also where people treat each other and themselves with respect and dignity. If, by objecting to drunks staggering around Ousegate/Micklegate/ Rougier Street and falling in the street, by objecting to people p*ssing against my front door, by objecting to being woken up at 4am by p*ssheads fighting outside my house, by objecting to dropped food and puke in the street and by objecting to being verbally abused (and physically threatened), that makes me a minority prig then I am VERY HAPPY TO BE ONE!!! Anybody want to join me in being a minority prig?!!! AngryandFrustrated
  • Score: 0

5:14pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

Heworth28 - Stats-based Policing is one of the biggest contributors to low-level crime going out of control so I'm not inclined to use any figures the Police produce to back up any point either way! My opinion (here it is again: MY OPINION) on the matter is based on both anecdotal and first-hand evidence, having visited and known people from pretty much every big city in the country. Try living somewhere like South Wales or even Leeds if you think it's bad here...

Here's some anecdotal evidence about YORK, not other places, and I note you admit low level crime is out of control -
I live in the city centre and I have noticed over the last 6-8 years or so that the amount of anti-social behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night has increased significantly - I live near to a hotel who over this period have opened a "budget" wing - since then the amount of stag and hen parties staying there has gone up dramatically.
[quote]Heworth28 - Stats-based Policing is one of the biggest contributors to low-level crime going out of control so I'm not inclined to use any figures the Police produce to back up any point either way! My opinion (here it is again: MY OPINION) on the matter is based on both anecdotal and first-hand evidence, having visited and known people from pretty much every big city in the country. Try living somewhere like South Wales or even Leeds if you think it's bad here...[/quote] Here's some anecdotal evidence about YORK, not other places, and I note you admit low level crime is out of control - [quote]I live in the city centre and I have noticed over the last 6-8 years or so that the amount of anti-social behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night has increased significantly - I live near to a hotel who over this period have opened a "budget" wing - since then the amount of stag and hen parties staying there has gone up dramatically.[/quote] Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

5:16pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

And another anecdote -
If, by objecting to drunks staggering around Ousegate/Micklegate/

Rougier Street and falling in the street, by objecting to people p*ssing against my front door, by objecting to being woken up at 4am by p*ssheads fighting outside my house, by objecting to dropped food and puke in the street and by objecting to being verbally abused (and physically threatened), that makes me a minority prig then I am VERY HAPPY TO BE ONE!!!

Crime and disorder in York is out of control.
And another anecdote - [quote]If, by objecting to drunks staggering around Ousegate/Micklegate/ Rougier Street and falling in the street, by objecting to people p*ssing against my front door, by objecting to being woken up at 4am by p*ssheads fighting outside my house, by objecting to dropped food and puke in the street and by objecting to being verbally abused (and physically threatened), that makes me a minority prig then I am VERY HAPPY TO BE ONE!!![/quote] Crime and disorder in York is out of control. Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

5:58pm Mon 13 Aug 12

yorkshirelad says...

I think he's absolutely right. To me it matters not whether it's rising or falling...but really drunken behaviour is too often unpleasant for those around. I have no doubt that he's right about it putting people off.

Stag & hen groups and the races seem to be the main culprits. A lot of the time behaviour does seem to be tolerated that simply wouldn't be if, say, it was at a football ground.

The other thing I'm noticing it affecting is travel on the East Coast main line. No weekend journey is now complete without being accompanied by drunken groups. A few days ago, my wife saw a person sprayed all over with fizzy wine from a fairly drunken group on a train who thought it was hilarous.

A ban on alcohol on trains (or at least alcohol being brought onto trains) penalises the reasonable majority but it does seem to be getting out of hand.

It's definitely putting people off and it's pretty clear that York is getting a reputation for it.
I think he's absolutely right. To me it matters not whether it's rising or falling...but really drunken behaviour is too often unpleasant for those around. I have no doubt that he's right about it putting people off. Stag & hen groups and the races seem to be the main culprits. A lot of the time behaviour does seem to be tolerated that simply wouldn't be if, say, it was at a football ground. The other thing I'm noticing it affecting is travel on the East Coast main line. No weekend journey is now complete without being accompanied by drunken groups. A few days ago, my wife saw a person sprayed all over with fizzy wine from a fairly drunken group on a train who thought it was hilarous. A ban on alcohol on trains (or at least alcohol being brought onto trains) penalises the reasonable majority but it does seem to be getting out of hand. It's definitely putting people off and it's pretty clear that York is getting a reputation for it. yorkshirelad
  • Score: 0

6:05pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Garrowby Turnoff says...

These days the stag and hen do is more celebrated than the wedding day.

In my day it was called a "Bachelor night" and was a one night pub crawl where mainly the groom was encouraged to drink before his lifetime of sobriety began after getting wed.

These days have progressively increased the binges to include everyone associated being drunk for four or five days in a host city like poor old York, Edinburgh, Chester or even Barcelona and Rome. If your home city is picked - hard lines - but it does indicate it's regarded as having a vibrant night life and fun by the young.

The only solution is a massive armed police presence with snarling dogs in the problem areas at peak times - and who wants that...

...or ban marriages!
These days the stag and hen do is more celebrated than the wedding day. In my day it was called a "Bachelor night" and was a one night pub crawl where mainly the groom was encouraged to drink before his lifetime of sobriety began after getting wed. These days have progressively increased the binges to include everyone associated being drunk for four or five days in a host city like poor old York, Edinburgh, Chester or even Barcelona and Rome. If your home city is picked - hard lines - but it does indicate it's regarded as having a vibrant night life and fun by the young. The only solution is a massive armed police presence with snarling dogs in the problem areas at peak times - and who wants that... ...or ban marriages! Garrowby Turnoff
  • Score: 0

7:23pm Mon 13 Aug 12

nowthen says...

William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings :The English at that time wore short garments, reaching to the mid-knee; they had their hair cropped, their beards shaven, their arms laden with gold bracelets, their skin adorned with tattooed designs. They were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. Not much has changed has it ?
William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings :The English at that time wore short garments, reaching to the mid-knee; they had their hair cropped, their beards shaven, their arms laden with gold bracelets, their skin adorned with tattooed designs. They were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. Not much has changed has it ? nowthen
  • Score: 0

8:03pm Mon 13 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

In Tanner Row the Council, in addition to erecting their 44 million pound palace, have allowed a "budget" hotel to be built opposite.The only consolation is that next year the council palace will be open and on race days they will get the full on experience of racegoing drunks passing the front door.
In Tanner Row the Council, in addition to erecting their 44 million pound palace, have allowed a "budget" hotel to be built opposite.The only consolation is that next year the council palace will be open and on race days they will get the full on experience of racegoing drunks passing the front door. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

9:51pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Pete the Brickie says...

I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox.
I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox. Pete the Brickie
  • Score: 0

10:27pm Mon 13 Aug 12

capt spaulding says...

PinzaC55 wrote:
In Tanner Row the Council, in addition to erecting their 44 million pound palace, have allowed a "budget" hotel to be built opposite.The only consolation is that next year the council palace will be open and on race days they will get the full on experience of racegoing drunks passing the front door.
Well I hope they wont be p****ng against the front door or James will become very vexed and bring on another bann
[quote][p][bold]PinzaC55[/bold] wrote: In Tanner Row the Council, in addition to erecting their 44 million pound palace, have allowed a "budget" hotel to be built opposite.The only consolation is that next year the council palace will be open and on race days they will get the full on experience of racegoing drunks passing the front door.[/p][/quote]Well I hope they wont be p****ng against the front door or James will become very vexed and bring on another bann capt spaulding
  • Score: 0

4:59am Tue 14 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings : 'The English ... were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick.' Not much has changed has it ?


Especially given that the English he was writing about were fighting in the Battle of Stamford Bridge (i.e. right next door to York) only three weeks before the Battle of Hastings!
[quote]William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings : 'The English ... were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick.' Not much has changed has it ?[/quote] Especially given that the English he was writing about were fighting in the Battle of Stamford Bridge (i.e. right next door to York) only three weeks before the Battle of Hastings! Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

11:05am Tue 14 Aug 12

again says...

nowthen wrote:
William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings :The English at that time wore short garments, reaching to the mid-knee; they had their hair cropped, their beards shaven, their arms laden with gold bracelets, their skin adorned with tattooed designs. They were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. Not much has changed has it ?
Except the Anglo-Saxons are now under Norman control! Letting the peasantry get pie-eyed in Micklegate keeps 'em from getting uppity and is good for a bob or two as well. The great brewing families are all landed gentry, Charrington, Cobbold, Courage, Whitbread, Worthington..
[quote][p][bold]nowthen[/bold] wrote: William of Malmesbury 1095 1143 the 12th century historian wrote the following in a description of the Battle of Hastings :The English at that time wore short garments, reaching to the mid-knee; they had their hair cropped, their beards shaven, their arms laden with gold bracelets, their skin adorned with tattooed designs. They were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. Not much has changed has it ?[/p][/quote]Except the Anglo-Saxons are now under Norman control! Letting the peasantry get pie-eyed in Micklegate keeps 'em from getting uppity and is good for a bob or two as well. The great brewing families are all landed gentry, Charrington, Cobbold, Courage, Whitbread, Worthington.. again
  • Score: 0

11:55am Tue 14 Aug 12

Older Sometimes Wiser says...

Why do we never have an honest thoughtful response from a Senior Police Officer when problems of policing are reported or commented upon?
They are paid to to do a job, and if they do not perform adequately they should be held to account.
Why do we never have an honest thoughtful response from a Senior Police Officer when problems of policing are reported or commented upon? They are paid to to do a job, and if they do not perform adequately they should be held to account. Older Sometimes Wiser
  • Score: 0

1:09pm Tue 14 Aug 12

meme says...

This is not a problem caused by budget hotels Its a social problem
York attracts tourists/hens etc because its nice.The hotels cater for the demand NOT create it and the fact that Mr Cassels particular hotel does not benefit from this trade is his problem
What we need is firm policing, actual serious punsihments not a restriction on trade but no one else
This is not a problem caused by budget hotels Its a social problem York attracts tourists/hens etc because its nice.The hotels cater for the demand NOT create it and the fact that Mr Cassels particular hotel does not benefit from this trade is his problem [although given the reports about the cleanliness in the Grange perhaps they should be budget or give upo cooking 100%] What we need is firm policing, actual serious punsihments[ not just a telling off] not a restriction on trade [which would suit the Grange perfectly] but no one else meme
  • Score: 0

1:27pm Tue 14 Aug 12

Ichabod76 says...

Pete the Brickie wrote:
I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox.
A .223 rifle won't kill a stag

you need a .38 at least
[quote][p][bold]Pete the Brickie[/bold] wrote: I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox.[/p][/quote]A .223 rifle won't kill a stag you need a .38 at least Ichabod76
  • Score: 0

2:52pm Tue 14 Aug 12

jmumof3 says...

Maybe they just need some strict council rules on ettiquette when they arrive, and on hotel websites ie no street drunkeness before 9pm, no offensive clothing including slogans and images on tshirts before 9pm and definitely no inflatable penises before 9pm. And a maximum number allowed. That way when 30 drunken half-dressed hens stagger loudly through york at 4pm carrying giant willies they can all be arrested on the spot.
Maybe they just need some strict council rules on ettiquette when they arrive, and on hotel websites ie no street drunkeness before 9pm, no offensive clothing including slogans and images on tshirts before 9pm and definitely no inflatable penises before 9pm. And a maximum number allowed. That way when 30 drunken half-dressed hens stagger loudly through york at 4pm carrying giant willies they can all be arrested on the spot. jmumof3
  • Score: 0

3:06pm Tue 14 Aug 12

meme says...

Actually the number of tourists who visit York is at an all time high
I dont condone some of the behaviour but to suggest its caused by cheaper hotels is complete rubbish. They may be part of the sympton but they are NOT the cause.
There is no planning differnetial between so called upmarket and budget hotels. A hotel is a hotel in planning terms so lets sort the cause with tougher policing and real penalties for the minority who attempt to damage the York experience for the majority
Actually the number of tourists who visit York is at an all time high I dont condone some of the behaviour but to suggest its caused by cheaper hotels [and I dont own one or have any interest in seeing them protected unlike Mr C who wants to protect a failing business] is complete rubbish. They may be part of the sympton but they are NOT the cause. There is no planning differnetial between so called upmarket and budget hotels. A hotel is a hotel in planning terms so lets sort the cause with tougher policing and real penalties for the minority who attempt to damage the York experience for the majority meme
  • Score: 0

4:00pm Tue 14 Aug 12

jmumof3 says...

I agree, there should be cheap hotels available, especially in a recession, because it allows families and the elderly to be able to have a short break somewhere. Also, it seems wrong for an exclusive hotel to try and supress other hotel businesses. The problem isn't the hotels, its the absence of rules on behaviour in York for stags and hens. Its really horrible and scary for small children to have to witness them drunk, swearing and loud on the streets in the daytime. I think a curfew on drunkeness before 9pm would be a really good start. That allows everyone to enjoy York in their own chosen way.
I agree, there should be cheap hotels available, especially in a recession, because it allows families and the elderly to be able to have a short break somewhere. Also, it seems wrong for an exclusive hotel to try and supress other hotel businesses. The problem isn't the hotels, its the absence of rules on behaviour in York for stags and hens. Its really horrible and scary for small children to have to witness them drunk, swearing and loud on the streets in the daytime. I think a curfew on drunkeness before 9pm would be a really good start. That allows everyone to enjoy York in their own chosen way. jmumof3
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Tue 14 Aug 12

nowthen says...

Ichabod76 wrote:
Pete the Brickie wrote:
I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox.
A .223 rifle won't kill a stag

you need a .38 at least
For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement in England and Wales.
[quote][p][bold]Ichabod76[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pete the Brickie[/bold] wrote: I had a problem with stags and hens in my garden last year, I found a .223 bolt action rifle and a fox were excellent respective solutions. Once the fox killed the hens and I'd used the rifle to kill the stag I was able to use leftover bullets to dispose of the fox.[/p][/quote]A .223 rifle won't kill a stag you need a .38 at least[/p][/quote]For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement in England and Wales. nowthen
  • Score: 0

5:13pm Tue 14 Aug 12

Guy Fawkes says...

Why do we never have an honest thoughtful response from a Senior Police Officer when problems of policing are reported or commented upon?


Because every police force has an in-house propaganda ministry that employs an army of PR girlies and lawyers, whose job it is to prevent them from doing so. I know someone who used to work in the Met's press office: the official policy that absolutely no public statement about anything to do with policing matters (both in general and in relation to individual cases) may be made by any employee, uniformed or civilian, without that office approving it.

This extends, theoretically, to comments made under aliases on sites such as this one, though in reality police officers (or at least, people claiming to be) have occasionally posted here in the past.

To a certain extent this is sensible - commenting about sub judice cases risks prejudicing trials, and where you've got volatile issues (e.g. race-related), the wrong choice of words could cause serious problems. But in other ways the PR paranoia backfires seriously, such as in this case.
[quote]Why do we never have an honest thoughtful response from a Senior Police Officer when problems of policing are reported or commented upon?[/quote] Because every police force has an in-house propaganda ministry that employs an army of PR girlies and lawyers, whose job it is to prevent them from doing so. I know someone who used to work in the Met's press office: the official policy that absolutely no public statement about anything to do with policing matters (both in general and in relation to individual cases) may be made by any employee, uniformed or civilian, without that office approving it. This extends, theoretically, to comments made under aliases on sites such as this one, though in reality police officers (or at least, people claiming to be) have occasionally posted here in the past. To a certain extent this is sensible - commenting about sub judice cases risks prejudicing trials, and where you've got volatile issues (e.g. race-related), the wrong choice of words could cause serious problems. But in other ways the PR paranoia backfires seriously, such as in this case. Guy Fawkes
  • Score: 0

5:24pm Tue 14 Aug 12

Sillybillies says...

Ghost tour leader attacked by thugs
9:40am Tuesday 14th August 2012
By Jennifer Bell

ONE of York's best-known ghost walkers has been left with a black eye after he was attacked in the city centre.

Ghost tour leader Trevor Rooney says he is the latest street performer in York to be targeted by thugs, following the assault outside McDonalds in Blake Street at about 3.30am on Saturday.....

Drunkeness, crime and violent disorder are out of control in York.
[quote] Ghost tour leader attacked by thugs 9:40am Tuesday 14th August 2012 By Jennifer Bell ONE of York's best-known ghost walkers has been left with a black eye after he was attacked in the city centre. Ghost tour leader Trevor Rooney says he is the latest street performer in York to be targeted by thugs, following the assault outside McDonalds in Blake Street at about 3.30am on Saturday.....[/quote] Drunkeness, crime and violent disorder are out of control in York. Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

7:02pm Tue 14 Aug 12

aj0708 says...

will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya
will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya aj0708
  • Score: 0

7:03pm Tue 14 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

All the letters about what "should" be done are very nice but what the council has actually done is to grant "Society" bar a license to have four tables and sixteen seats on the pavement. Lets see how that works out.
All the letters about what "should" be done are very nice but what the council has actually done is to grant "Society" bar a license to have four tables and sixteen seats on the pavement. Lets see how that works out. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

9:13pm Tue 14 Aug 12

long distance depressive says...

again wrote:
For years York's had a bad reputation e.g. the notorious Micklegate Run and race days. I didn't know it could get worse but then I've not visited the town centre at a weekend for years. Quite the opposite, I head out! To the hills!
The main problem is the daytime drinking, I was in York a couple of weeks ago and there was a group of beered up blokes outside Harkers..very loud, commenting to passers-by in various manner, particularly at the ladies.
The evening Micklegate run is less of an issue for tourists and no doubt good for trade...and they obviously aren't noticing the watered down booze!!
[quote][p][bold]again[/bold] wrote: For years York's had a bad reputation e.g. the notorious Micklegate Run and race days. I didn't know it could get worse but then I've not visited the town centre at a weekend for years. Quite the opposite, I head out! To the hills![/p][/quote]The main problem is the daytime drinking, I was in York a couple of weeks ago and there was a group of beered up blokes outside Harkers..very loud, commenting to passers-by in various manner, particularly at the ladies. The evening Micklegate run is less of an issue for tourists and no doubt good for trade...and they obviously aren't noticing the watered down booze!! long distance depressive
  • Score: 0

10:24am Wed 15 Aug 12

rogue84 says...

The worst thing to affect York on a Saturday night is the races....this is pretty much acknowledged by everyone living or working in town. Stag & Hen parties make no difference whatsoever, most trouble that occurs in town are people from within the York Outer catchment area (either that or these incidents are never reported that involve stag/hen groups).
And to all the people who say that the Micklegate area is terrifying - I've walked down there on many weekends either on my way home from work or when i'm actually out for a few and i've never had any bother whatsoever.
I also echo the question....how on earth do you STOP a stag or hen party?! have security at the station confiscating t-shirts and balloons?!
The worst thing to affect York on a Saturday night is the races....this is pretty much acknowledged by everyone living or working in town. Stag & Hen parties make no difference whatsoever, most trouble that occurs in town are people from within the York Outer catchment area (either that or these incidents are never reported that involve stag/hen groups). And to all the people who say that the Micklegate area is terrifying - I've walked down there on many weekends either on my way home from work or when i'm actually out for a few and i've never had any bother whatsoever. I also echo the question....how on earth do you STOP a stag or hen party?! have security at the station confiscating t-shirts and balloons?! rogue84
  • Score: 0

1:14pm Wed 15 Aug 12

YSTClinguist says...

aj0708 wrote:
will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya
Go back another century to 1751 and William Hogarth certainly had something to say about that!

You have made a frank admission as an entertainments industry employee that Ebor goers are a problem though. But we, as residents, are concerned about what is happening outside of the four walls of the premises you work in (and not just within eyeshot of the doors you stand on) I certainly didn't appreciate the tipsy, overgrown 'paying visitors' this weekend gone who harassed my partner in town during the middle of the afternoon on Coney Street when I was stood a mere six feet away from her.
[quote][p][bold]aj0708[/bold] wrote: will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya[/p][/quote]Go back another century to 1751 and William Hogarth certainly had something to say about that! You have made a frank admission as an entertainments industry employee that Ebor goers are a problem though. But we, as residents, are concerned about what is happening outside of the four walls of the premises you work in (and not just within eyeshot of the doors you stand on) I certainly didn't appreciate the tipsy, overgrown 'paying visitors' this weekend gone who harassed my partner in town during the middle of the afternoon on Coney Street when I was stood a mere six feet away from her. YSTClinguist
  • Score: 0

1:25pm Wed 15 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

I also echo the question....how on earth do you STOP a stag or hen party?! have security at the station confiscating t-shirts and balloons?!


Enforce the law which says that people who already drunk should not be served in licensed premises.
Stop granting extensions to bars and clubs.
Stop budget hotels from allowing multiple occupation of rooms.
Stop bars having outside table areas such as has been granted to Society.
Come to think of it , enforce the "Cumulative Impact Zone" strategy which was dreamed up years ago then promptly forgotten about.
[quote]I also echo the question....how on earth do you STOP a stag or hen party?! have security at the station confiscating t-shirts and balloons?![/quote] Enforce the law which says that people who already drunk should not be served in licensed premises. Stop granting extensions to bars and clubs. Stop budget hotels from allowing multiple occupation of rooms. Stop bars having outside table areas such as has been granted to Society. Come to think of it , enforce the "Cumulative Impact Zone" strategy which was dreamed up years ago then promptly forgotten about. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

7:16pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Maquis says...

The Cumulative Impact Zone is the biggest cause of this problem!!!!!
Before it was created, the rowdier drinking establishments were primarily on the Micklegate side of the river. If there were to be problems, and there frequently were, the police were on site to deal with it, and nip it in the bud quickly before it escalated, as it took less police and response times were far better. This left those out for a quiet drink or meal to go to the other side of town.
With the CIZ, it has stifled that side of town, and the bigger noisier bars have now opened up in large numbers over the river, Micklegate in contrary to the many of the comments here is a ghost town in comparison to the 80's and 90's and has relatively little trouble, however the trouble is now so spread out across the whole city that it is hard to police and needs far more officers. The CIZ has meant that the rowdy stag and hen groups who have been coming to York for decades now have to mix with the tourists and shoppers in the center to get to many of the bars, causing the problems discussed here.

In reality there is nothing wrong with people having fun and being a bit loud. Most of the problems are just perceived.
I know that when I walk down the street and see some youths being loud, I may see something other than the group of young people who are laughing and joking with each other without a bad though between them, instead imagining that they are going to attack me and steal my wallet. True there are some trouble causing groups, but most are not interested in acting up, just having a good time.

This should be controlled in a sensible way, and when it was localized as before the CIZ, it was not a big problem, maybe a small area becomes a perceived "no go area" for some people, but it allows thousands to have a good time, trouble to be controlled, and leaves the majority of town to those who don't want that atmosphere.
The Cumulative Impact Zone is the biggest cause of this problem!!!!! Before it was created, the rowdier drinking establishments were primarily on the Micklegate side of the river. If there were to be problems, and there frequently were, the police were on site to deal with it, and nip it in the bud quickly before it escalated, as it took less police and response times were far better. This left those out for a quiet drink or meal to go to the other side of town. With the CIZ, it has stifled that side of town, and the bigger noisier bars have now opened up in large numbers over the river, Micklegate in contrary to the many of the comments here is a ghost town in comparison to the 80's and 90's and has relatively little trouble, however the trouble is now so spread out across the whole city that it is hard to police and needs far more officers. The CIZ has meant that the rowdy stag and hen groups who have been coming to York for decades now have to mix with the tourists and shoppers in the center to get to many of the bars, causing the problems discussed here. In reality there is nothing wrong with people having fun and being a bit loud. Most of the problems are just perceived. I know that when I walk down the street and see some youths being loud, I may see something other than the group of young people who are laughing and joking with each other without a bad though between them, instead imagining that they are going to attack me and steal my wallet. True there are some trouble causing groups, but most are not interested in acting up, just having a good time. This should be controlled in a sensible way, and when it was localized as before the CIZ, it was not a big problem, maybe a small area becomes a perceived "no go area" for some people, but it allows thousands to have a good time, trouble to be controlled, and leaves the majority of town to those who don't want that atmosphere. Maquis
  • Score: 0

8:32pm Wed 15 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

Maquis says...
7:16pm Wed 15 Aug 12

The Cumulative Impact Zone is the biggest cause of this problem!!!!!


I have the misfortune to live in the Micklegate area and judging by your comment I would imagine you don't and having problems with the " people having fun and being a bit loud." encroaching on your back yard?
" when it was localized as before the CIZ, it was not a big problem"
When you didn't have to put up with it?
" but it allows thousands to have a good time, trouble to be controlled, and leaves the majority of town to those who don't want that atmosphere."
You, and your neighbours?
Don't worry, I am used to finding puke all over the doorstep on Sunday morning and being buzzed on the intercom at 03.00 is a matter of routine. It's a small price to pay for your comfort.
[quote]Maquis says... 7:16pm Wed 15 Aug 12 The Cumulative Impact Zone is the biggest cause of this problem!!!!![/quote] I have the misfortune to live in the Micklegate area and judging by your comment I would imagine you don't and having problems with the " people having fun and being a bit loud." encroaching on your back yard? " when it was localized as before the CIZ, it was not a big problem" When you didn't have to put up with it? " but it allows thousands to have a good time, trouble to be controlled, and leaves the majority of town to those who don't want that atmosphere." You, and your neighbours? Don't worry, I am used to finding puke all over the doorstep on Sunday morning and being buzzed on the intercom at 03.00 is a matter of routine. It's a small price to pay for your comfort. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

9:33pm Wed 15 Aug 12

heworth.28 says...

aj0708 wrote:
will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya
I'm genuinely intrigued as to which bars have stopped allowing locals in "when students are here"
[quote][p][bold]aj0708[/bold] wrote: will this whole story is just a joke i work in york city centre on a night and if it was'nt for stag and hen do's york would have no night life at all the bars have alienated the locals by not letting them in when students are here so nobody wants to go out there is nowhere near as much trouble as the "theatre go'ers" would have you believe .York needs a change its 2012 not 1876 try going out there and experiencing it instead of sitting on your high horses being afraid of something that is just noncence. i work till 5am most mornings with these people and have never had any major problems apart from the ebor race meet . so no doubt the numptys on here will pick at my spelling and my punctuation as the next travesty to hit york .see ya[/p][/quote]I'm genuinely intrigued as to which bars have stopped allowing locals in "when students are here" heworth.28
  • Score: 0

9:44pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Maquis says...

Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it.
If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move?
If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer!
Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then.
I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA
(It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any)

Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police.

The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave.
Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it. If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move? If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer! Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then. I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA (It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any) Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police. The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave. Maquis
  • Score: 0

10:16pm Wed 15 Aug 12

crazydiamond1 says...

yes york is becoming one big fun pub ,even stonegate one of the oldest most historical streets is now every night full of drunken idiots with pop music blaring down it ,micklegate has spread out it seems ,no tourist from abroad here to see a beautiful city with its very precious historical sights wants to see this ,nor do the residents .york has always been special ,but on anymore ,we can all see this.
yes york is becoming one big fun pub ,even stonegate one of the oldest most historical streets is now every night full of drunken idiots with pop music blaring down it ,micklegate has spread out it seems ,no tourist from abroad here to see a beautiful city with its very precious historical sights wants to see this ,nor do the residents .york has always been special ,but on anymore ,we can all see this. crazydiamond1
  • Score: 0

10:23pm Wed 15 Aug 12

crazydiamond1 says...

how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about. crazydiamond1
  • Score: 0

10:54pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Maquis says...

crazydiamond1 wrote:
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
What a typical miserably old busybody comment.
Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes.
The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads.

Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent?

I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends.
I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma.

As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......
[quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.[/p][/quote]What a typical miserably old busybody comment. Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads. Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent? I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends. I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots...... Maquis
  • Score: 0

4:12am Thu 16 Aug 12

martinandrews says...

Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares!
Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares! martinandrews
  • Score: 0

3:27pm Thu 16 Aug 12

YSTClinguist says...

martinandrews wrote:
Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares!
I guess it all comes down to education and how there are a combination of things that are putting the wrong kind of 'education' in peoples heads, that is taking those high spirits and shifting it across the line into something unacceptable. It's amazing that people are then confusing Freedoms of Speech/Assembly to justify their insulting anyone who opposes their (or others) offensive behaviour.

We've all here probably partied too hard in our time, but we can (probably) all distinctly remember we didn't pull stuff in public, or in the daytime amongst families and shoppers. We knew it was game over very quickly.

The pub/club scene in York was nothing then, compared to what we have today. A decent night out involved travel to another city (remember when trains were affordable?) And no doubt the dance scene took a large enough slice of partygoers about that time too.
[quote][p][bold]martinandrews[/bold] wrote: Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares![/p][/quote]I guess it all comes down to education and how there are a combination of things that are putting the wrong kind of 'education' in peoples heads, that is taking those high spirits and shifting it across the line into something unacceptable. It's amazing that people are then confusing Freedoms of Speech/Assembly to justify their insulting anyone who opposes their (or others) offensive behaviour. We've all here probably partied too hard in our time, but we can (probably) all distinctly remember we didn't pull stuff in public, or in the daytime amongst families and shoppers. We knew it was game over very quickly. The pub/club scene in York was nothing then, compared to what we have today. A decent night out involved travel to another city (remember when trains were affordable?) And no doubt the dance scene took a large enough slice of partygoers about that time too. YSTClinguist
  • Score: 0

4:11pm Thu 16 Aug 12

Maquis says...

martinandrews wrote:
Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares!
Thats the point Im trying to make. Some bother will happen when people are in town. Its about containing and minimizing this problem.
Spreading it out like the CIZ did has done the opposite.

One thing that has worked in some countries is drunk tanks. Anyone acting up under the influence can be locked up, details taken, given a plastic mattress and water, then released without charge in the morning. It will make people think twice before becoming a problem.
If it happens regularly, then charge them.
[quote][p][bold]martinandrews[/bold] wrote: Sorry to sound like an old git, but drinking has always been part of our culture. If you go into town then expect a certain level of misbehaviour. However, where you set that level is the key. I was in th York Police (NYP for the pedants), in the late 1980's and we had zero tolerance before it appeared in New York. We had a Supt called John Lilley(?) who told us to get in the faces of the idiots and lock them up or move them on. It worked for a few years with no increase in numbers of bobbies. 10 to 12 in the city centre max. We knew the difference between high spirits and intimidation. Between loud drunk and "gonna fight". Common sense before procedure. And before some Guardianista starts .... no violence in vans or Police stations. Word got round really quickly that York centre was not the place to kick off. The fact that it may have gone elsewhere? ...who cares![/p][/quote]Thats the point Im trying to make. Some bother will happen when people are in town. Its about containing and minimizing this problem. Spreading it out like the CIZ did has done the opposite. One thing that has worked in some countries is drunk tanks. Anyone acting up under the influence can be locked up, details taken, given a plastic mattress and water, then released without charge in the morning. It will make people think twice before becoming a problem. If it happens regularly, then charge them. Maquis
  • Score: 0

5:11pm Thu 16 Aug 12

crazydiamond1 says...

Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
What a typical miserably old busybody comment.
Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes.
The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads.

Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent?

I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends.
I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma.

As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......
im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .
[quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.[/p][/quote]What a typical miserably old busybody comment. Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads. Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent? I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends. I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......[/p][/quote]im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it . crazydiamond1
  • Score: 0

5:38pm Thu 16 Aug 12

Maquis says...

crazydiamond1 wrote:
Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
What a typical miserably old busybody comment.
Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes.
The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads.

Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent?

I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends.
I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma.

As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......
im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .
I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive.

The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess.
The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined.

How many people met their partners in a pub?
How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs?
How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work?

The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated.

The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is.

More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing.

The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room.
[quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.[/p][/quote]What a typical miserably old busybody comment. Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads. Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent? I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends. I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......[/p][/quote]im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .[/p][/quote]I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive. The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess. The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined. How many people met their partners in a pub? How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs? How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work? The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is. More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing. The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room. Maquis
  • Score: 0

8:23pm Thu 16 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

Maquis wrote:
Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it.
If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move?
If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer!
Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then.
I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA
(It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any)

Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police.

The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave.
I actually live in Tanner Row where over the last few years COYC have exacerbated the problems by rubberstamping late night extensions following Blairs "cafe culture" idea and then allowing the building of a "budget hotel" at the top of the street. The CIZ has NEVER been enforced. I live in a rented flat so altering the intercom isn't feasible. Nor do do I think I should "move" because of COYC's efforts to turn Tanner Row into the Benidorm of York.If, as you appear to think, the CIZ has moved the problem elsewhere in York why don't those residents affected by it move as well? You really don't appear to have thought your arguments through.
[quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it. If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move? If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer! Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then. I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA (It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any) Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police. The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave.[/p][/quote]I actually live in Tanner Row where over the last few years COYC have exacerbated the problems by rubberstamping late night extensions following Blairs "cafe culture" idea and then allowing the building of a "budget hotel" at the top of the street. The CIZ has NEVER been enforced. I live in a rented flat so altering the intercom isn't feasible. Nor do do I think I should "move" because of COYC's efforts to turn Tanner Row into the Benidorm of York.If, as you appear to think, the CIZ has moved the problem elsewhere in York why don't those residents affected by it move as well? You really don't appear to have thought your arguments through. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

11:02pm Thu 16 Aug 12

Maquis says...

PinzaC55 wrote:
Maquis wrote:
Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it.
If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move?
If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer!
Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then.
I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA
(It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any)

Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police.

The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave.
I actually live in Tanner Row where over the last few years COYC have exacerbated the problems by rubberstamping late night extensions following Blairs "cafe culture" idea and then allowing the building of a "budget hotel" at the top of the street. The CIZ has NEVER been enforced. I live in a rented flat so altering the intercom isn't feasible. Nor do do I think I should "move" because of COYC's efforts to turn Tanner Row into the Benidorm of York.If, as you appear to think, the CIZ has moved the problem elsewhere in York why don't those residents affected by it move as well? You really don't appear to have thought your arguments through.
You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are.
Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences. You refuse to move from an area which is primarily occupied with offices through the day and pubs and clubs through the night and expect it to change just for you.
I would guess that the rent is cheap, and for exactly the reason that you are complaining about.
You want people to not have fun, and be loud just so that you can have your own way to hell with the thousands of people who enjoy themselves there every week.

There are four pub/clubs and two regular pubs within 100 meters of where you CHOOSE to live and only a handful of houses. These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move.
You said you don't own the property, so it would not be difficult to rent elsewhere somewhere nice and quiet, like the middle of the moors, but then you would probably complain about the sheep and ask for them to be banned.

The CIZ has spread the problem across York, but it is more the people who perceive the problem but rarely see it themselves who are likely to complain, whereas you have put yourself in the problem just to be bitter about it.
[quote][p][bold]PinzaC55[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: Yes I do live in center of the area. My living room faces the street. I accept that it is an area with pubs, clubs, traffic and takeaways, and the noise that comes with it. If it was such a big issue and has been for so long then why not move? If it is a regular thing to get your intercom buzzed by some idiot at 3am, put it on a timer! Also the pubs on Micklegate have closed long before then, so the culprits will probably just be heading back from tanner row, or the other side of town. Local drinkers have left the area long before then. I think this puts your argument to bed thoroughly and shows that I am not a NIMBY as you imply. In fact I'm a IHTBISBYMIAGAPAA (It has to be in someones back yard, mine is as good a place as any) Instead the CIZ has spread the noise and inconvenience to the back yard of thousands of other people, and stretched the police. The situation is nowhere near as loud and boisterous as it was 15-20 years ago, and there is far far less trouble than even 10 years ago, yet people like you are still not happy. I'm sure you will never be happy until the whole world is silent just for you. You live in a vibrant city with real people, most of them fantastic, some not so. Deal with it or leave.[/p][/quote]I actually live in Tanner Row where over the last few years COYC have exacerbated the problems by rubberstamping late night extensions following Blairs "cafe culture" idea and then allowing the building of a "budget hotel" at the top of the street. The CIZ has NEVER been enforced. I live in a rented flat so altering the intercom isn't feasible. Nor do do I think I should "move" because of COYC's efforts to turn Tanner Row into the Benidorm of York.If, as you appear to think, the CIZ has moved the problem elsewhere in York why don't those residents affected by it move as well? You really don't appear to have thought your arguments through.[/p][/quote]You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are. Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences. You refuse to move from an area which is primarily occupied with offices through the day and pubs and clubs through the night and expect it to change just for you. I would guess that the rent is cheap, and for exactly the reason that you are complaining about. You want people to not have fun, and be loud just so that you can have your own way to hell with the thousands of people who enjoy themselves there every week. There are four pub/clubs and two regular pubs within 100 meters of where you CHOOSE to live and only a handful of houses. These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move. You said you don't own the property, so it would not be difficult to rent elsewhere somewhere nice and quiet, like the middle of the moors, but then you would probably complain about the sheep and ask for them to be banned. The CIZ has spread the problem across York, but it is more the people who perceive the problem but rarely see it themselves who are likely to complain, whereas you have put yourself in the problem just to be bitter about it. Maquis
  • Score: 0

10:10am Fri 17 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

"You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are. "

Because I expect people not to puke on my doorstep and ring my intercom out of sheer malice?

"Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences."

10 flats where I am , about another 15 next door, more flats under construction in Barker lane, maybe another 20 flats opposite Jarvis. We also have the Cedar Court Hotel which is not a problem because it caters for dignified people.
Sorry to intrude with the facts.

These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move.

So instead of expecting COYC and the police to do their job and keep public order I have to move?

"The CIZ has spread the problem across York,"

The CIZ HAS NOT BEEN USED. How can I get you to understand or accept this?

And in one sentence you tell me there isn't a problem but then say the problem has been spread across York?
"You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are. " Because I expect people not to puke on my doorstep and ring my intercom out of sheer malice? "Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences." 10 flats where I am , about another 15 next door, more flats under construction in Barker lane, maybe another 20 flats opposite Jarvis. We also have the Cedar Court Hotel which is not a problem because it caters for dignified people. Sorry to intrude with the facts. These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move. So instead of expecting COYC and the police to do their job and keep public order I have to move? "The CIZ has spread the problem across York," The CIZ HAS NOT BEEN USED. How can I get you to understand or accept this? And in one sentence you tell me there isn't a problem but then say the problem has been spread across York? PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

1:08pm Fri 17 Aug 12

yorkshirelad says...

I don't think you need Draconian measures, or bans of this, that or the other.

Just simply that people who are drunk and disorderly...and specifically those causing offence to others, openly urinating in public etc etc need to be arrested and face the consequences.

Now, no-one believes that the Police have the capacity for mass arrests but intervention will be a deterrent. It is amazing what some race-goers and in fact other groups get away with.

Everyone knows that you can enjoy alcohol and even a bit too much on occasion and not be offensive to others.
I don't think you need Draconian measures, or bans of this, that or the other. Just simply that people who are drunk and disorderly...and specifically those causing offence to others, openly urinating in public etc etc need to be arrested and face the consequences. Now, no-one believes that the Police have the capacity for mass arrests but intervention will be a deterrent. It is amazing what some race-goers and in fact other groups get away with. Everyone knows that you can enjoy alcohol and even a bit too much on occasion and not be offensive to others. yorkshirelad
  • Score: 0

1:38pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

PinzaC55 wrote:
"You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are. "

Because I expect people not to puke on my doorstep and ring my intercom out of sheer malice?

"Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences."

10 flats where I am , about another 15 next door, more flats under construction in Barker lane, maybe another 20 flats opposite Jarvis. We also have the Cedar Court Hotel which is not a problem because it caters for dignified people.
Sorry to intrude with the facts.

These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move.

So instead of expecting COYC and the police to do their job and keep public order I have to move?

"The CIZ has spread the problem across York,"

The CIZ HAS NOT BEEN USED. How can I get you to understand or accept this?

And in one sentence you tell me there isn't a problem but then say the problem has been spread across York?
Occasional puke on the doorstep is an unfortunate side effect of where you choose to live. It is the councils responsibility to sort it out.
Im sure if you asked to put a switch on your intercom and explained the reasoning, your landlord would not object.
Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question, so should not get anywhere near the number of people near them. There are only 10 flats, that is between 10 and 20 people who choose to live there. Again you want to stop thousands of people from having fun just because you CHOOSE to live there. You will probably find that most of the people who live nearby accept that thats what it is like.
As for expecting the police to keep public order, what do you class public order? silence? what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up? what about ringing a doorbell, how do you expect them to deal with it? lock em all up and throw away the key? There is only a certain number of cells, we cannot afford more.
Please read my comment and tell me where I said there was no problem? I explained that you have chosen to put yourself in an area that could be perceived as a problem to live in. The CIZ has lead to this being spread to other areas for more people to be in the same situation.

Maybe its time to realize that you live in a busy vibrant area of the city and it will be noisy at night. If you dont like it, stop being selfish and MOVE.

I dont like that the fire trucks and ambulances use my street as a cut through for most of the south of York, but it is a part of where I choose to live, so I deal with it, I dont expect them to change just for me.
[quote][p][bold]PinzaC55[/bold] wrote: "You have just shown how incredibly selfish you are. " Because I expect people not to puke on my doorstep and ring my intercom out of sheer malice? "Tanner row has an exceptionally low number of residences." 10 flats where I am , about another 15 next door, more flats under construction in Barker lane, maybe another 20 flats opposite Jarvis. We also have the Cedar Court Hotel which is not a problem because it caters for dignified people. Sorry to intrude with the facts. These places, although they have changed in nature have been there for decades, people have been drinking and leaving the pubs late at night almost certainly since before you moved there, they may now be doing the same a few hours later, but if you don't like it, move. So instead of expecting COYC and the police to do their job and keep public order I have to move? "The CIZ has spread the problem across York," The CIZ HAS NOT BEEN USED. How can I get you to understand or accept this? And in one sentence you tell me there isn't a problem but then say the problem has been spread across York?[/p][/quote]Occasional puke on the doorstep is an unfortunate side effect of where you choose to live. It is the councils responsibility to sort it out. Im sure if you asked to put a switch on your intercom and explained the reasoning, your landlord would not object. Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question, so should not get anywhere near the number of people near them. There are only 10 flats, that is between 10 and 20 people who choose to live there. Again you want to stop thousands of people from having fun just because you CHOOSE to live there. You will probably find that most of the people who live nearby accept that thats what it is like. As for expecting the police to keep public order, what do you class public order? silence? what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up? what about ringing a doorbell, how do you expect them to deal with it? lock em all up and throw away the key? There is only a certain number of cells, we cannot afford more. Please read my comment and tell me where I said there was no problem? I explained that you have chosen to put yourself in an area that could be perceived as a problem to live in. The CIZ has lead to this being spread to other areas for more people to be in the same situation. Maybe its time to realize that you live in a busy vibrant area of the city and it will be noisy at night. If you dont like it, stop being selfish and MOVE. I dont like that the fire trucks and ambulances use my street as a cut through for most of the south of York, but it is a part of where I choose to live, so I deal with it, I dont expect them to change just for me. Maquis
  • Score: 0

2:52pm Fri 17 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have never been to Tanner Row at night and are simply interested in arguing. I've pointed out there are around about 50 flats here but without acknowledging that you simply change tack and say "Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question"
ALL of the flats face onto Tanner Row.

You've saved the best though; " what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up?"
Try this; find a policeman in the city centre and throw up near him. I'll visit you in your cell and you can tell me what they charged you with!
LMAO.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have never been to Tanner Row at night and are simply interested in arguing. I've pointed out there are around about 50 flats here but without acknowledging that you simply change tack and say "Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question" ALL of the flats face onto Tanner Row. You've saved the best though; " what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up?" Try this; find a policeman in the city centre and throw up near him. I'll visit you in your cell and you can tell me what they charged you with! LMAO. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

3:05pm Fri 17 Aug 12

crazydiamond1 says...

Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
What a typical miserably old busybody comment.
Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes.
The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads.

Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent?

I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends.
I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma.

As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......
im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .
I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive.

The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess.
The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined.

How many people met their partners in a pub?
How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs?
How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work?

The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated.

The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is.

More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing.

The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room.
yes but we were discussing gangs of people coming in to york center looking to get as drunk as they can ,im not saying no to it completely just cant we go back to having this happen in the micklegate run area like it used to be .maybe get the other pubs more traditional ,like remember the old john bull at layerthorpe, more traditional music ,like if stone gate had acoustic music jazz blues ,folk ,it wouldn't attract the fun pub binge drinkers as much ,i know theres responsible drinkers about too ,just york seems to be spreading fun pub binge drinking culture over the whole city center ,there is no place on a weekend for the responsible drinker to go in the city center anymore ,maybe the habbit but its so small it just dosnt fit everyone trying to escape the madness in .
[quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.[/p][/quote]What a typical miserably old busybody comment. Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads. Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent? I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends. I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......[/p][/quote]im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .[/p][/quote]I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive. The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess. The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined. How many people met their partners in a pub? How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs? How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work? The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is. More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing. The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room.[/p][/quote]yes but we were discussing gangs of people coming in to york center looking to get as drunk as they can ,im not saying no to it completely just cant we go back to having this happen in the micklegate run area like it used to be .maybe get the other pubs more traditional ,like remember the old john bull at layerthorpe, more traditional music ,like if stone gate had acoustic music jazz blues ,folk ,it wouldn't attract the fun pub binge drinkers as much ,i know theres responsible drinkers about too ,just york seems to be spreading fun pub binge drinking culture over the whole city center ,there is no place on a weekend for the responsible drinker to go in the city center anymore ,maybe the habbit but its so small it just dosnt fit everyone trying to escape the madness in . crazydiamond1
  • Score: 0

3:11pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

PinzaC55 wrote:
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have never been to Tanner Row at night and are simply interested in arguing. I've pointed out there are around about 50 flats here but without acknowledging that you simply change tack and say "Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question"
ALL of the flats face onto Tanner Row.

You've saved the best though; " what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up?"
Try this; find a policeman in the city centre and throw up near him. I'll visit you in your cell and you can tell me what they charged you with!
LMAO.
As I said, I live on Micklegate and know the area very well. Although those establishments are not my cup of tea, I have visited them.
Tanner row has only one small terrace which contains accommodation. The rest are businesses. The flats you mention do not directly face tanner row at all, they are in a small development behind the church.
Maybe you are extrapolating that they are north facing therefore technically facing it, but are not on the street.
Police will not arrest you for throwing up. If you are drunk and disorderly, that is a different matter, but high spirits can be deemed as disorderly by many, and this is not an offence.

I hope you enjoyed your laugh as it seems as if you are the kind of person who has very little sense of humor or consideration for the rest of society.
[quote][p][bold]PinzaC55[/bold] wrote: I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that you have never been to Tanner Row at night and are simply interested in arguing. I've pointed out there are around about 50 flats here but without acknowledging that you simply change tack and say "Of the places you mentioned, most are not directly facing the area in question" ALL of the flats face onto Tanner Row. You've saved the best though; " what law do you think they will be breaking by throwing up?" Try this; find a policeman in the city centre and throw up near him. I'll visit you in your cell and you can tell me what they charged you with! LMAO.[/p][/quote]As I said, I live on Micklegate and know the area very well. Although those establishments are not my cup of tea, I have visited them. Tanner row has only one small terrace which contains accommodation. The rest are businesses. The flats you mention do not directly face tanner row at all, they are in a small development behind the church. Maybe you are extrapolating that they are north facing therefore technically facing it, but are not on the street. Police will not arrest you for throwing up. If you are drunk and disorderly, that is a different matter, but high spirits can be deemed as disorderly by many, and this is not an offence. I hope you enjoyed your laugh as it seems as if you are the kind of person who has very little sense of humor or consideration for the rest of society. Maquis
  • Score: 0

3:17pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

crazydiamond1 wrote:
Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
Maquis wrote:
crazydiamond1 wrote:
how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.
What a typical miserably old busybody comment.
Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes.
The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads.

Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent?

I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends.
I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma.

As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......
im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .
I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive.

The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess.
The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined.

How many people met their partners in a pub?
How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs?
How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work?

The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated.

The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is.

More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing.

The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room.
yes but we were discussing gangs of people coming in to york center looking to get as drunk as they can ,im not saying no to it completely just cant we go back to having this happen in the micklegate run area like it used to be .maybe get the other pubs more traditional ,like remember the old john bull at layerthorpe, more traditional music ,like if stone gate had acoustic music jazz blues ,folk ,it wouldn't attract the fun pub binge drinkers as much ,i know theres responsible drinkers about too ,just york seems to be spreading fun pub binge drinking culture over the whole city center ,there is no place on a weekend for the responsible drinker to go in the city center anymore ,maybe the habbit but its so small it just dosnt fit everyone trying to escape the madness in .
I agree with most of those points, however to say that there is nowhere for the sensible drinkers to go, its not true. Just because the place is lively, does not mean that its for binge drinking. If you wanted a good pint of cask ale for example, there are loads of places with various levels of vibrancy, even in the Micklegate area, such as The Maltings, Accorn, Briganties, Golden Ball, all of which are not loud, or if you want nice cask, but a bit livelier, there is the Artful Dodger, the Priory, **** and Bottle.
York has something for everybody.
[quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maquis[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]crazydiamond1[/bold] wrote: how can all these people say theres nothing wrong with it ,we all know loads of people who are dead from alcohol or dying ,its a sordid business and york is becoming a city to just go and get drunk in ,surely york has enough other things to offer without having to base its income on how many **** heads we can cram the streets with ,and how much we can get them to drink before they leave having noticed nothing about what yorks really about.[/p][/quote]What a typical miserably old busybody comment. Yes people die from alcohol, but they also die from eating disorders, accidents while exercising, crossing the street, and millions of other causes. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not die from it, nor are they drunken ****heads. Are you tee total or do you think that you are the only one who can drink without becoming drunk and violent? I go out into York on maybe a fortnightly basis, I have a decent number of drinks, I have never had a fight, thrown up in someones doorway, or woken up in hospital through drinking. This experience is the same with most of my friends. I would be lying to say that I have never seen a fight in town, but then I have seen people start fights who have not been drinking too. Where there is a lot of people, it is more likely that there will be some issues. Perhaps you would prefer them to sit at home downing can after can of cheap supermarket booze before falling into a coma. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority if the trouble is miss perceived. Ten totally decent people stood outside a pub smoking, talking and laughing may be perceived as intimidating to an older couple who walk past. This does not mean that they are going to get assaulted, nor that any of the ten are going to end up in hospital. The old couple may not want to walk past that pub again and consider it a "no-go area" They then write into the press saying that York has become full of drunken idiots......[/p][/quote]im not that old im a street musician ive seen the changes on york street over the last 20 years it used to be heavy drinkers went to micklegate ,that worked fine i thought ,its just spread out now in a very tacky way ,like were becoming another leeds ,Manchester hull ,type place,that just dosn,t suit york ,anyway nowt wrong with been old ,the elder generation have much wisdom we should all listen to them a bit more i think.and the fact that other things can kill you too dosnt ,mean we should overlook the way drink kills ,and destroys lives ,i used to drink but the fun went out of it for me ,after kingsley the busker fell in the foss drunk ,after several other friends died too on alcohol ,and one current friend with pancreatic cancer ,and three months left ,another with a liver transplant ,its just not a good idea to base yorks income on alcohol ,it is a sordid business,and no good will come of it .[/p][/quote]I also knew Kingsley and it was a sad loss, however to base your views on an entire industry, passtime, and thousands of years old way of life is judgmental, short sighted and destructive. The Daily mail section of our community have spent the last couple of decades purveying this attitude that you have, shouting about the ills of pubs and alcohol and how people can only drink to excess. The result of this is that the pubs up and down this country are being driven out of business. All the good that they did as centers of their communities is being undermined. How many people met their partners in a pub? How many billions of pounds of business has been done in pubs? How many people just use the pub as a way to relax after a hard day at work? The positive effects of pubs is massive and very understated. The overwhelming majority of drinkers do not drink to excess, and even those who do, rarely cause problems to others, however the few who do are the ones who are highlighted leading to a perception that the problem is considerably worse than it is. More and more people are now drinking to excess on cheap supermarket booze at home in front of their TV, loosing the art of interacting with other people, apart from those who ask if they have a club card and need help packing. The negative propaganda has allowed successive governments to continually increase the duty on alcohol, driving more people to buy from supermarkets and drink it in the unregulated environment of their living room.[/p][/quote]yes but we were discussing gangs of people coming in to york center looking to get as drunk as they can ,im not saying no to it completely just cant we go back to having this happen in the micklegate run area like it used to be .maybe get the other pubs more traditional ,like remember the old john bull at layerthorpe, more traditional music ,like if stone gate had acoustic music jazz blues ,folk ,it wouldn't attract the fun pub binge drinkers as much ,i know theres responsible drinkers about too ,just york seems to be spreading fun pub binge drinking culture over the whole city center ,there is no place on a weekend for the responsible drinker to go in the city center anymore ,maybe the habbit but its so small it just dosnt fit everyone trying to escape the madness in .[/p][/quote]I agree with most of those points, however to say that there is nowhere for the sensible drinkers to go, its not true. Just because the place is lively, does not mean that its for binge drinking. If you wanted a good pint of cask ale for example, there are loads of places with various levels of vibrancy, even in the Micklegate area, such as The Maltings, Accorn, Briganties, Golden Ball, all of which are not loud, or if you want nice cask, but a bit livelier, there is the Artful Dodger, the Priory, **** and Bottle. York has something for everybody. Maquis
  • Score: 0

3:25pm Fri 17 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

What on Earth are you talking about? There is no church in Tanner Row. On vomiting in the street a Google Search produced this "It said that offenders can be prosecuted under public order legislation, and that on-the-spot fines of £80 can be served under the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001."
Were you wrong?
What on Earth are you talking about? There is no church in Tanner Row. On vomiting in the street a Google Search produced this "It said that offenders can be prosecuted under public order legislation, and that on-the-spot fines of £80 can be served under the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001." Were you wrong? PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

3:40pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

The church is behind tanner row and the flats are behind the church, you know what I am talking about. The church can be seen through the beer garden of the Corner Pin.
Oh so google says that does it, well it must be true....
If you were to look further into it, it is not a law to be used in isolation, nor without common sense. If there are only 20 police officers covering what due to the CIZ is a massively increased area, they are hardly going to spend their valuable time prosecuting someone for throwing up now are they?
The church is behind tanner row and the flats are behind the church, you know what I am talking about. The church can be seen through the beer garden of the Corner Pin. Oh so google says that does it, well it must be true.... If you were to look further into it, it is not a law to be used in isolation, nor without common sense. If there are only 20 police officers covering what due to the CIZ is a massively increased area, they are hardly going to spend their valuable time prosecuting someone for throwing up now are they? Maquis
  • Score: 0

3:41pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

LOL just noticed that the auto - bad - word - eliminator just removed the c0ck from the c0ck and bottle....
LOL just noticed that the auto - bad - word - eliminator just removed the c0ck from the c0ck and bottle.... Maquis
  • Score: 0

4:15pm Fri 17 Aug 12

PinzaC55 says...

So you are so thoroughly familiar with Tanner Row that you don't know it runs all the way up to Micklegate Bar? Wow.
As for ignoring the fact that there is a law against puking on the street because I found a link to it on Google?
Enough, I am done with you.
So you are so thoroughly familiar with Tanner Row that you don't know it runs all the way up to Micklegate Bar? Wow. As for ignoring the fact that there is a law against puking on the street because I found a link to it on Google? Enough, I am done with you. PinzaC55
  • Score: 0

6:14pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Maquis says...

Ah I see, you live on the part that is not even in the center of salvation, flares, and society. It makes your comments even more selfish. I incorrectly assumed as you were so annoyed about the pub and club users that you lived in the louder area.

I did not ignore the"fact" that you found on google, I merely stated that it was, like most laws, not to be taken in isolation, and common sense is to be used.
Ah I see, you live on the part that is not even in the center of salvation, flares, and society. It makes your comments even more selfish. I incorrectly assumed as you were so annoyed about the pub and club users that you lived in the louder area. I did not ignore the"fact" that you found on google, I merely stated that it was, like most laws, not to be taken in isolation, and common sense is to be used. Maquis
  • Score: 0

9:00pm Fri 17 Aug 12

Buzz Light-year says...

I'm not butting in here at all, but a couple of facts...

Tanner Row turns into Toft Green after Barker Lane so not up to the Bar.


If I threw up next to a police officer, their first concern would be for my personal well-being. An ambulance would be more likely than an arrest.


Ok, as you were.
I'm not butting in here at all, but a couple of facts... Tanner Row turns into Toft Green after Barker Lane so not up to the Bar. If I threw up next to a police officer, their first concern would be for my personal well-being. An ambulance would be more likely than an arrest. Ok, as you were. Buzz Light-year
  • Score: 0

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