Greens call for traffic cuts to stem deadly York pollution (From York Press)

Yet the Greens support the retention of the cycle lane at Clifton Green which causes more traffic to build up and creates more fumes?

The way to improve air quality is keep traffic moving!
Artificially introducing delays to encourage people out of cars will only drive down the air quality at the 'pinch' points!

By all means, improve things for cyclists and pedestrians but not at the expense of other users.
There are lots of footpaths that can be of shared use for them.

if the green Party had there way you would not own a car . you should see the mess they have constructed down in Fulford were Residents are unable to park there cars out side there homes and are also going to put double yellow lines in the estate. They are a joke .

Closing Beckfield Lane Waste site, forcing people from the west of York to drive to another disposal site across the city doesn't look quite so clever now, does it?

Restoring the Clifton Green slip road to allow a handful of cars to escape before the main phase allows all cars to move doesn't look quite so clever when it simply moves the vehicles to another pinch point.

The traffic build-up at Clifton Green and across the city for that matter is caused by...traffic. You commenters all seem to think that removing cycle lanes and traffic lights will magically speed up traffic and reduce pollution. Can you see enough "wasted" space beside each road in York to allow for another lane or two in each direction for cars? There isn't any. There are too many people using too many vehicles to try to travel at the same time on a road system with no possibility for expansion. That's why pollution is rising across the city, and that's why there will have to be measures to control traffic volumes. Road pricing is one possibility...workpl
ace car parking charges are another.

Fortunately we have lots of suburban residents who choose to leave the car in the garage at peak times, and walk, cycle, car share or hop on a P&R bus.
Without their contribution we'd already be experiencing gridlock and far worse air quality.
That's all a consequence of the sensible transport strategy which the previous Labour-led Council pursued.
Intelligent peak travel choices makes a better city for us all, and helps to create road capacity for those who genuinely need to use a car.

the man is an idiot.stationary traffic,caused by all the traffic lights,pedestrian crossings,bus stops,cycle lanes and traffic calming measures causes more pollution than moving traffic.get a grip man or go and live in the bloody country.

You commenters all seem to think that removing cycle lanes and traffic lights will magically speed up traffic and reduce pollution.

Yes we do, and we are right.

the man is an idiot.stationary traffic,caused by all the traffic lights,pedestrian crossings,bus stops,cycle lanes and traffic calming measures causes more pollution than moving traffic.get a grip man or go and live in the bloody country.

Correct, and a major contributor to the problem with his open topped tourist bus.

It's quite obvious that lots of people used to cycle but no longer do so. Instead they prefer to get in their cars and drive. Therein lies the problem.

The idea that traffic can magically speed through York if there were no cyclists is simply bonkers.

How about a congestion charge for single occupancy motor vehicles? This could be used to subsidise grant for cycle users.

Of course I realise not everyone is capable of riding a bicycle, but there are schemes for them already.

Ultimately forcing people to breathe other people's exhaust fumes will become as unacceptable as forcing people to breathe other people's cigarette smoke.
The Greens are absolutely right on this as I suspect the other parties know full well.
A start would be when people who want to use private cars less can do so...most other countries faced with this issue have gone down the road of improving the alternatives - walking, cycling, public transport.
I'm a very frequent driver in York but I definitely see sense in prioritising other methods of transport.
It will be 'kicking & screaming' all the way (as the usual comments indicate) but hasn't it beeen shown repeatedly that you can't build your way out of congestion...especia
lly not in a small historic city.
Never yet voted Green...but you have principles and stick to them.

Fulford is an extraordinary suberb of York. It seems to attract greenies, eco warriors, and people who ride bikes with trailers on. Green party do well there, but struggle elsewhere in York.

Further to my Previous comment above I would like to Invite the press down to see the c ock up which the local council has made down in Fulford Cross Please contact me and I will be more than happy to assist you in your visit. Its ok for parents to dump there cars when dropping there kids off at the steiner school and mini buses dropping the kids off at the skills centre But if your a resident paying taxes you dont count.

Why not go the whole hog and ban all motorised vehicles from the city? The way fuel prices are going up, no-one will be able to drive anyway!

roskoboskovic wrote:
the man is an idiot.stationary traffic,caused by all the traffic lights,pedestrian crossings,bus stops,cycle lanes and traffic calming measures causes more pollution than moving traffic.get a grip man or go and live in the bloody country.

Stationary traffic is caused by....the amount of traffic trying to fit into a finite amount of space. If you can't (or won't) grasp this simple and blindingly obvious fact, that's your affair. But accusing people who do grasp it of being "idiots" just makes you look silly.

This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

Whatever happened to Acid rain? we were all going to get melted by it in the 80's. By the the time we got to the late 90's we were all going to be frazzled by means of global warming. Then we have 2 nasty winters in a row and it is now called Climate change.

I wonder what the greens will come up with next to kill us all off with?

but hasn't it beeen shown repeatedly that you can't build your way out of congestion.

No!

"number of premature deaths from poor air quality is between 94 and 163 in York" - rather a large margin isn't it - suggests the greenies are picking figures out of the air.
As for Clifton lights, well a number of times over the last 2 or 3 years the lights have been off for some fault or other and the traffic seems to flow a lot better. Which suggests thaatall this superfluous traffic furniture, signage and special lanes for this and that just hold things up.
A big thing that would improve flow is to only run buses on routes where there are pull-ins to enable traffic to pass.

"number of premature deaths from poor air quality is between 94 and 163 in York" - rather a large margin isn't it - suggests the greenies are picking figures out of the air.
As for Clifton lights, well a number of times over the last 2 or 3 years the lights have been off for some fault or other and the traffic seems to flow a lot better. Which suggests thaatall this superfluous traffic furniture, signage and special lanes for this and that just hold things up.
A big thing that would improve flow is to only run buses on routes where there are pull-ins to enable traffic to pass.

Mullarkian wrote:
"number of premature deaths from poor air quality is between 94 and 163 in York" - rather a large margin isn't it - suggests the greenies are picking figures out of the air.
As for Clifton lights, well a number of times over the last 2 or 3 years the lights have been off for some fault or other and the traffic seems to flow a lot better. Which suggests thaatall this superfluous traffic furniture, signage and special lanes for this and that just hold things up.
A big thing that would improve flow is to only run buses on routes where there are pull-ins to enable traffic to pass.

You have made some great comments Mulla....but don't forget these 'Greenies' don't want us to own cars. horse and carts...well, maybe !

Rise in pollution? It's all those tired old buses trundling about!

Rise in pollution? It's all those tired old buses trundling about!

Rise in pollution? It's all those tired old buses trundling about!

Apologies...3 times for impact.
Check out Jan Gahl on google for a real solution...that goes for councillors and highways engineers!

I could never see the point of monitoring pollution in Fulford when it's outside the City smoke control area (smokeless zone to us oldies ) Fulford residents can burn as much high sulphur nutty slack in their fire grates as they like. What's that going to do to the annual pollution figures ( apart from help the greenies argument)? What damage is that doing to buildings and people's health? I suspect that the greenies don't give a dam n as long as they get their way and get all private motorists out of York so they can cycle to the latest tofu market or bunny hugging conference full of self righteous importance and pride knowing that they've saved the planet. Not! With the world population increasing exponentially and with the industries of countries such as Brazil, India and China burgeoning, these measures will have as much impact as a snowflake in the desert. The City of York is already suffering so adding to the burden with increased transport costs which will be necessary to pay for these prototype engines could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Don't know what all the fuss is about. A good stiff breeze usually blows all the alledged pollution away.

I am trying to reconcile the 'Greens' and city centre traders desire to have more of us deserting out of town shopping centres to shop in the city, with us not going into the city unless you ride a bike or walk to try to save the likes of the tobaconist in Nessgate that blames Monks Cross for having to close down. Not the fact that people are stopping smoking or the government are taxing them out of business.

What would the cost of public transport be if the current buses were scrapped and replaced with very expensive electric vehicles.

How many more buses would we need if every shopper needed an extra seat to take the shopping?

York has been it's own worst enemy over the years. If motor vehicle access to York had been improved many years ago as was planned, traffic would be travelling smoothly, instead of the gridlocks we have today.

What do you want a thriving city centre economy or a nice quiet place for tourism? Make your choice, you cannot have both.

''The traffic build-up at Clifton Green and across the city for that matter is caused by...traffic. You commenters all seem to think that removing cycle lanes and traffic lights will magically speed up traffic and reduce pollution. Can you see enough "wasted" space beside each road in York to allow for another lane or two in each direction for cars? There isn't any. There are too many people using too many vehicles to try to travel at the same time on a road system with no possibility for expansion. That's why pollution is rising across the city, and that's why there will have to be measures to control traffic volumes. Road pricing is one possibility...workpl

ace car parking charges are another.''

Spot on Skeifr. Thats as simple as the situation is. All the rest of you that believe in deliberate traffic increasing schemes and conspiracies theories are utterly deluded.
York is a historic city, not in any way designed for the volume of traffic seen today.

Bigwood wrote:
''The traffic build-up at Clifton Green and across the city for that matter is caused by...traffic. You commenters all seem to think that removing cycle lanes and traffic lights will magically speed up traffic and reduce pollution. Can you see enough "wasted" space beside each road in York to allow for another lane or two in each direction for cars? There isn't any. There are too many people using too many vehicles to try to travel at the same time on a road system with no possibility for expansion. That's why pollution is rising across the city, and that's why there will have to be measures to control traffic volumes. Road pricing is one possibility...workpl


ace car parking charges are another.''

Spot on Skeifr. Thats as simple as the situation is. All the rest of you that believe in deliberate traffic increasing schemes and conspiracies theories are utterly deluded.
York is a historic city, not in any way designed for the volume of traffic seen today.

"York is a historic city, not in any way designed for the volume of traffic seen today."

So why try to get more local people to go shopping there?

I do tend to punch the air in delight whenever traffic lights in York go down. Motorists tend to have a good look round and carefully proceed. Half the problem in York is, as soon as you're through one set of traffic lights 30 or 40ft round the corner you're stopped at a pelican crossing, when that changes to green to allow you to proceed to the lights a further 40ft away would you believe it.. they've changed from green to red.

roskoboskovic wrote:
the man is an idiot.stationary traffic,caused by all the traffic lights,pedestrian crossings,bus stops,cycle lanes and traffic calming measures causes more pollution than moving traffic.get a grip man or go and live in the bloody country.

Let me see if I’ve got this right – you want to get rid of pedestrian crossings so pedestrians won’t be able to get to where they want to go, so they’ll have to use the bus – but then you’re going to get rid of the bus stops so they won’t be able to get on a bus, so they’ll have to get their bikes out – but then you’re going to get rid of cycle lanes so, for safety’s sake they'll be condemned to use their cars – and then you’re going to get rid of traffic lights and calming and let everyone have a jolly old free for all – and you think that’ll reduce pollution levels.

Really?

Here's a challenge. A CoYC Scrutiny Committee has just decided not to refer Cabinet's Clifton Green decision back to them. Yet there was tacit acceptance by some Cllrs at the Scrutiny meeting, that it will only bring short term gain to peak car users. Anyone care to join me along Water End a year after change is made, and check whether peak queuing has gone and traffic is "flowing?" I confidently predict as I said at the earlier Cabinet meeting as a registered speaker, that the queues will be as long as todays, if not longer.

Shouter wrote:
Why not go the whole hog and ban all motorised vehicles from the city? The way fuel prices are going up, no-one will be able to drive anyway!

You're quite right. Private travel will become the preserve of the wealthy and fortunate. Using present technologies, the era of cheap travel and energy has gone forever. Even worse and waiting in the wings a few years down the road are food shortages. The insatiable demand for Western lifestyles worldwide is unsustainable. One for the politicians to sort out. Who'd be a lying thieving mortgage flipping member of parliament then? Why, most of them of course.

Paul Hepworth says...
8:19pm Mon 23 Apr 12

Here's a challenge. A CoYC Scrutiny Committee has just decided not to refer Cabinet's Clifton Green decision back to them. Yet there was tacit acceptance by some Cllrs at the Scrutiny meeting, that it will only bring short term gain to peak car users. Anyone care to join me along Water End a year after change is made, and check whether peak queuing has gone and traffic is "flowing?" I confidently predict as I said at the earlier Cabinet meeting as a registered speaker, that the queues will be as long as todays, if not longer.

Blah blah blah, you lost. Maybe this council will recognise you for what you, a boring pain in the neck.

Terry3 wrote:
This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

What... on earth... are you talking about?

bjb wrote:

Bigwood wrote: ''The traffic build-up at Clifton Green and across the city for that matter is caused by...traffic. You commenters all seem to think that removing cycle lanes and traffic lights will magically speed up traffic and reduce pollution. Can you see enough "wasted" space beside each road in York to allow for another lane or two in each direction for cars? There isn't any. There are too many people using too many vehicles to try to travel at the same time on a road system with no possibility for expansion. That's why pollution is rising across the city, and that's why there will have to be measures to control traffic volumes. Road pricing is one possibility...workpl ace car parking charges are another.'' Spot on Skeifr. Thats as simple as the situation is. All the rest of you that believe in deliberate traffic increasing schemes and conspiracies theories are utterly deluded. York is a historic city, not in any way designed for the volume of traffic seen today.

"York is a historic city, not in any way designed for the volume of traffic seen today." So why try to get more local people to go shopping there?

Well said Yawn. Traffic lights in York appear to breed like rabbits (eg yet another set at Grimston Bar) and the phasing of them is designed to create as much congestion as possible. Add to that the many chicanes, road humps, 20mph limits and you've got a recipe for gridlock.

yawn.. wrote:
I do tend to punch the air in delight whenever traffic lights in York go down. Motorists tend to have a good look round and carefully proceed. Half the problem in York is, as soon as you're through one set of traffic lights 30 or 40ft round the corner you're stopped at a pelican crossing, when that changes to green to allow you to proceed to the lights a further 40ft away would you believe it.. they've changed from green to red.

Oooops, sorry, the wrong quote appears to have got attached to the message I just sent. This is the one I meant to reply to, wretched computers!....

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:
This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

What... on earth... are you talking about?

Why don't you climb out of the snug little hole you live in and take as look at the real world? you would have to be brain dead not to see that the Greens are ruining everything that they touch.

How dishonest the anti-car campaigners are!

Most of the Nitrogen Dioxide concentrations in Fulford are due to buses (32%) and HGVs (20%). Private cars contribute only 16% so are emphatically not responsible for the poor air quality.

Terry3 wrote:

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:
This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

What... on earth... are you talking about?

Why don't you climb out of the snug little hole you live in and take as look at the real world? you would have to be brain dead not to see that the Greens are ruining everything that they touch.

My snug little hole? Again... What the hell are you babbling on about? Your posts are just guff. For example, regardless of when you sit on the political spectrum ,on what basis do you dispute this research?

Explain yourself man.

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:
This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

What... on earth... are you talking about?

Why don't you climb out of the snug little hole you live in and take as look at the real world? you would have to be brain dead not to see that the Greens are ruining everything that they touch.

My snug little hole? Again... What the hell are you babbling on about? Your posts are just guff. For example, regardless of when you sit on the political spectrum ,on what basis do you dispute this research?

Explain yourself man.

On what basis?? seventy four years of real life experience and various parts of the world, and a positive knowledge that the western world is sliding down the drain, mainly due to the likes of you and your Green "friends". Stop reading the propaganda and get out and see what life is really about smarta*se

Terry3 wrote:

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:

Stuart Jones wrote:

Terry3 wrote:
This whole article is based on an false premise, on "facts" created by the greens.. I refuse to accept anything stated here as fact.. Time to tell the greenies where to go I think. When I look at the damage caused by groups using "green" as an excuse to disrupt our society it makes me so angry. I have lived in many parts of the Western world, and in every one of these places "The Greens" do massive damage to our way of life.. destroying the economy of whole towns., putting large portions of the working class out of jobs, and increasing living costs with the garbage that they spew.. Time to shut them down and get back to a normal lifestyle.

What... on earth... are you talking about?

Why don't you climb out of the snug little hole you live in and take as look at the real world? you would have to be brain dead not to see that the Greens are ruining everything that they touch.

My snug little hole? Again... What the hell are you babbling on about? Your posts are just guff. For example, regardless of when you sit on the political spectrum ,on what basis do you dispute this research?

Explain yourself man.

On what basis?? seventy four years of real life experience and various parts of the world, and a positive knowledge that the western world is sliding down the drain, mainly due to the likes of you and your Green "friends". Stop reading the propaganda and get out and see what life is really about smarta*se

Thanks for your feedback 'Terry', your comments are very important to me. Hey... wait a minute...You sound like an open minded, left leaning kind of guy, right? Perhaps you would like to join my communist, poetry club? We meet every Wednesday for Vegan curry (eating off recycled cardboard plates of course). You're more than welcome to join us. I think you would love it!

Bo Jolly wrote:
How dishonest the anti-car campaigners are!

Most of the Nitrogen Dioxide concentrations in Fulford are due to buses (32%) and HGVs (20%). Private cars contribute only 16% so are emphatically not responsible for the poor air quality.

While the buses might be the biggest contributor to NO2 in Fulford, the only reason that they are not whizzing through full of people causing minimal pollution is because their way is blocked by a long line of cars with one person in, and a number of points where they have to wait for oncoming traffic to pass half a dozen parked cars! I am at a loss to understand how yellow lines would be an absolute blot on the conservation area but a few large metal objects at the kerbside and consequent lines of standing traffic dont...

Isn't it odd that we get all worked up and sad when one person dies of cancer (recent Press front page) or 3 people die in a car crash, but NO ONE here ^ has gotten all sad about the 100 plus or minus a few people every year who die because their system cannot cope with the levels of air pollution, which in several areas breaks EU maximum-allowed limits.

That's 2 people a week, or 3 a week if the epidemiologists higher estimates are right. I think it's awful that this is happening. I don't care that the victims might already be old, or might have smoked all their lives, or have a pre-exisiting heart or lung condition. These people are our parents, siblings, friends, workmates, children even.

Local air pollution is a serious problem in many towns and cities, and although buses, lorries and domestic fires will contribute some oxides of nitrogen (one of the worst culprits for pulmonary ill-health), it is the many many cars which clog our cities, most with just one person in, which are mostly responsible. Oh, and the architecture of our canyon-like streets, Gillygate for example.

So, to try to stem this regular 2 or 3 people a week dying in York unnecessarily, I support any measures which would reduce this pollution. Electric and Hydrogen vehicles, yes, bring them in. Low emission buses... well, yes, it's a no-brainer. Closing certain streets on days when pollution levels go too high? Yes, because we, the sturdy British, will cope, won't we? Surely, if it saves lives, we'd be happy to shoulder that minor inconvenience?

Oh, and the silly Clifton Green thing.... saying that the current single motor-vehicle lane causes more pollution from stationary traffic... well, yes, if you keep your motor idling. If drivers cut their engine whilst stuck in traffic, the pollution levels would be very much reduced. These days, engines starting up after 2 or 3 minutes switched off don't produce a big plume of smoke, and guess what, you'll save money too, as you'll use less fuel.

End of rant. And I didn't even mention closing the City to cars, did I? (whoops, it slipped out!)

Blaming the Greens for pointing out the obvious is ridiculous!...its called shooting the messenger.

Theendoftheworld wrote:
Yet the Greens support the retention of the cycle lane at Clifton Green which causes more traffic to build up and creates more fumes?

No... the cause there is a rise in car ownership and more people trying to bypass the A1237.
If you don't like causing pollution whilst sitting in a queue then cut your engine, or buy one of those fancy BMW's that does it automatically.

If this idea by the green means less cars on Lendal Bridge likely to crush me into the pavement because their drivers think getting 2m in front will magically improve their journey, then I'm all for it.

I'd be intrigued to see the working out for the figure of between 94 and 163 deaths per year due to poor quality air. Like many people, I'm surprised by how high it is.

Unfortunately the figure isn't published anywhere. It appears to come from the draft LES, which says only that it is "based on national estimates".

So if it's based on national estimates, how can we be sure its an accurate figure? For example, the national estimates will include deaths from PM (which are not a problem in York). It will include places next to motorways and high polluting industries, all of which will serve to 'push up' the average but don't apply to York.

Of course, these variations may have been taken into account, but we don't know because its not properly published and the suspicion will be that it is deliberately over-inflated. When asserting figures about controversial topics, justify them!