York’s small businesses fear impact of congestion fees (From York Press)

It will be run by an outside company thats only goal is profit .
Ps Paul Hepworth does not speak for me .

I have just reurned from Singapore which makes us lok like the 3rd world country
There they have congestion charging for driving in the city centre
It works but only when the necessary public transport is put in place in advance and our ridiculous bus system is not good enough.
I canot see us putting up the money to create the necessary public infrastructure costs to make such a system work before charging was introduced. I also stress its a relatively small area that has the charge but it means you can drive everywhere. There is little if no pedestrianisation except in moden centres.However the roads are all excellent and virtually without exception including in the City centre dualled.
Its just not a feasible proposition here without huge upfront costs which york canot pay for and central governement dont have the money. Why waste time debating it?
one thing that was fantastic was the cleanliness. You are fined 300 dollars for littering/cig butts/spitting etc up to 1000 dollars for chewing gum etc. Consequently there is no litter anywhere but again they have spent a fortune on bins ashtrays etc as street furniture so there is no excuse to commit an offence.
I would love to see that brought in here as the place looks fantastic and york could do with a facelift

"Coun Galloway refused to accept ..."

How unusual that is, arrogance of the man is breathtaking.

Unfortunately the instinctive demands of the general public, do not always reflect the advice given by central government to Local Authorities. That advice is reflected in the recommendations made by CoYC Officers to York's elected Cllrs.
Take Transport Planning for instance. The man in the street who buys a car, may think he has also bought the open road seen on the TV car ads. Fine until trying to use the vehicle in an urban area at peak times, along with thousands of other like minded souls. We don't have the road capacity and never will. So it is sensible to ecourage voluntary transfer to other travel modes where practicable, to make the most efficient use of our road space.

A resounding NO then!!

ANAGRAM
A panel of experts = Expanse Fare Plot

pedalling paul wrote:
Unfortunately the instinctive demands of the general public, do not always reflect the advice given by central government to Local Authorities. That advice is reflected in the recommendations made by CoYC Officers to York's elected Cllrs. Take Transport Planning for instance. The man in the street who buys a car, may think he has also bought the open road seen on the TV car ads. Fine until trying to use the vehicle in an urban area at peak times, along with thousands of other like minded souls. We don't have the road capacity and never will. So it is sensible to ecourage voluntary transfer to other travel modes where practicable, to make the most efficient use of our road space.

So when are you and your council buddies going to put pressure on First York, that shower that have a virtual monopoly on buses in York, to make themselves more affordable, more reliable and more accountable to their customers?

I have a car because it is essential to the work I do. However, when not working, I try and utilise public transport where I can. However, First York are a disgrace when it comes to customer care. I needed to travel to Haxby last Saturday evening and decided that I would get the No 1 bus - however, because of Gillygate being shut there are currently no buses going from Exhibition Square. The First York website gave details of a lengthy diversion via the Stonebow - however, when I enquired as to what time the buses would be stopping at the Stonebow, nobody at First York could give me an answer. Initially I was told to add on 20 minutes to the time they would normally depart from Ex. Sq. When I pointed out that the detour would take much longer during peak times, thereby having a "domino" effect on the bus times as the day went on, I was told that I should just go to the Stonebow and "a bus would turn up eventually". For someone travelling alone on a busy weekend night (the return journey being the last bus and hence late), this answer was simply not acceptable. What did I do? I travelled by car.

Until the Council tackle these issues and give people a real alternative to using the car, the congestion issue will never be solved. Why can't they encourage other bus companies to give First York some real competition? Travellers could then vote with their feet and have real choice available - if the competition worked well, York would be given proper, affordable public transport.

If this council stopped wasting money, there would be no need to dream up yet more stupid ideas like this one!

The congestion charge is nothing but yet another way for teh council to make money, its not necessary.
Congesion in York is not a problem.

Does the Council's projection of a "28 per cent increase in traffic in the city over the next 15 years" take into account the effect on businesses of the stratospheric rise in rates which is reported in today's Press?
It seems more likely that in fifteen years most small businesses will have relocated from York to outlying towns where the rates are much lower. Congestion will be non-existent, as will economic activity. Then pedalling Paul and his public sector pals can paint all the roads in York cycle-lane green and race the tumbleweed round the inner ring road.

Although no great fan of First and their high fares, the main reason for their lack of punctuality is because there are too many people blocking the roads in their cars. Unless the council can come up with a scheme to remove most of these vehicles then buses of which ever company will be stuck in the same jam as all the car drivers. If the council were to run the buses and reduce the fares then this would require subsidy that would come out of our pockets. So I guess congestion charge would not be that bad after all and might give me a clearer cycle to work, while my car slumbers on the drive.

If we were the size of Leeds, then congestion charging might be worth doing. But we're not we're a tiny city that was built for getting horses around easily. Hence why PP is happy with his bike as he looks a bit like a horse. But I find that the majority of buses are doing their best to be on time but it annoys me that they constantly have that one every 10 minutes sign, it's not true in the slightest. We weathered rather well through the recession but we can't take a hit like this now on our finances. I'd accept a congestion charge if a few things were met, 1. I won the lottery. 2. Buses were tracked so if you rang up the company and said where is it they could say it's round the corner now and it'd be true. 3. Petrol prices were back at 96.3p a litre again or lower then they are now. I'll accept my first option isn't gonna happen but the others have to happen. If you want my money to go on a bus ticket you have to provide me with value for my money

I don't think the congestion charges are a bad idea at all! The bus services and park and ride could do with improvement, but as NTS points out, the traffic is probably the main factor as to why the bus services are so unreliable! I think it's really paranoid to think shoppers are going to travel to Leeds/Harrogate etc. instead. Is the congestion charge likely to equate to the extra petrol needed to travel many miles further than you were going to? I think not. Basic Maths anyone? Yes, the council has many faults and I do not always agree with the way in which they allocate money, but I think it's all to easy to just dismiss this ideas for selfish reasons. So we may have to adapt a bit. It's a price I'm willing to pay (in every sense of the word) to breathe cleaner air and be able to pedal faster! The amount of times I get stuck in traffic on my bike is ridiculous. I come from a town wherin the town centre is completely pedestrianised and I have coped fine thus far! As has the local trade - big and small! And it's not just a bike versus car debate. The amount of people I know who drive a 10 minute walk is disgusting!

hifive wrote:
I don't think the congestion charges are a bad idea at all! The bus services and park and ride could do with improvement, but as NTS points out, the traffic is probably the main factor as to why the bus services are so unreliable! I think it's really paranoid to think shoppers are going to travel to Leeds/Harrogate etc. instead. Is the congestion charge likely to equate to the extra petrol needed to travel many miles further than you were going to? I think not. Basic Maths anyone? Yes, the council has many faults and I do not always agree with the way in which they allocate money, but I think it's all to easy to just dismiss this ideas for selfish reasons. So we may have to adapt a bit. It's a price I'm willing to pay (in every sense of the word) to breathe cleaner air and be able to pedal faster! The amount of times I get stuck in traffic on my bike is ridiculous. I come from a town wherin the town centre is completely pedestrianised and I have coped fine thus far! As has the local trade - big and small! And it's not just a bike versus car debate. The amount of people I know who drive a 10 minute walk is disgusting!

I find myself reverting back to what I always end up posting when confronted with this story. Hifive and the rest of the "pro-congestion charging" lobby forget one basic fact. There are 1000s of us that live within the York City Centre and potentially within the congestion charging area. As a result, WE HAVE NO CHOICE but to enter the city centre at all times of the day and night, in order to travel home after work, visiting, shopping etc. Why should we get shafted with a charge, just for coming home and which will be impossible to avoid? For work, I have to commute to a town which does not have great public transport links and in any event I need my car during the working day. I have no choice but to drive thru' the city centre during both the morning and evening rush hour, due to the location of my home.

Forget the potential problems with empty shops - there is a significant amount of residential accomodation in the potential congestion area, so think of the effect on that if people end up having to pay a supplementary tax, just to carry on living in their home - York will end up an empty derelict ghost town with a few ancient monuments for the trippers to visit.

If traffic will rise by the claimed percentage then surely congestion charging is necessary to reduce it by a similar figure. I'd vote for it if it meant I could get to jobs quicker in York, then I'd take them, and then I would also shop in York. Congestion without a solution means my money is earnt and spent on trade outside CofYc area.

Angry and Frustrated - I also live in the city centre and these charges would affect me also as I too often need to drive for work. However, firstly I said it's a price I'm willing to pay - I wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone else - and furthermore, I realise that the problem is bigger than me and me alone! It is impossible to come up with a solution that will not have an adverse effect on some people. You will have to pay a congestion charge but how much petrol money do you currently waste sitting in traffic? If you can get around quicker, the petrol savings should negate any congestion charges. The situation is not ideal for everyone but neither is the predicted vast increase of traffic! We need to weigh things up and stop dimissing ideas just because they pose an inconvenience to the individual.

They can't currently impose the vehicle ban on Goodram Gate when it's supposed to be pedestrianised. What chance do they have of running a congestion charge system?

This council never fails to amaze with its bird brain schemes.

It's easy to slag off the council but if congestion is set to rise even more something has to be done and inevitably, people won't like it. If you're looking for someone to blame, look no further than people who drive unnecessarily! And before everyone starts justifying their reasons for having to drive, emphasis on the worn "unnecessarily!"

hifive wrote:
Angry and Frustrated - I also live in the city centre and these charges would affect me also as I too often need to drive for work. However, firstly I said it's a price I'm willing to pay - I wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone else - and furthermore, I realise that the problem is bigger than me and me alone! It is impossible to come up with a solution that will not have an adverse effect on some people. You will have to pay a congestion charge but how much petrol money do you currently waste sitting in traffic? If you can get around quicker, the petrol savings should negate any congestion charges. The situation is not ideal for everyone but neither is the predicted vast increase of traffic! We need to weigh things up and stop dimissing ideas just because they pose an inconvenience to the individual.

Let me clarify a few points - I don't "often" have to travel to work in my car, I HAVE TO every day of the working week - if you are lucky enough to have the choice and take advantage of not having to use a car every day, then that is to your benefit.

Secondly, congestion charging will not have an impact on "some" people - it will have an impact on virtually the entire electorate in this area, not just those who live in the city centre but those that have businesses or work in the city centre. Whilst I may be an "individual", several thousand "individuals" makes a large chunk of the population.

Thirdly, I have no idea what sort of car you drive, but I can only assume it is a gas guzzling Hummer if you think it will be cheaper for me to pay the congestion charge than pay for the petrol used whilst sitting in traffic or even be cost neutral - the charge in London is £8 per day - even if it is half that in York at £4 per day, I can assure you that £20 per week is not burned in traffic, given that my weekly fuel bill is less than this due to the green "City Car" I drive.

Wow! Angry and Frustrated - apt name eh? Stop taking it so personally. The only part of my comment directed at you was to point out I also drive and also live in the city centre. We don't know what it's going to cost so can't feasibly work out financial savings from smart driving but surely it's worth considering other areas in which we can save money? Every little helps! I don't doubt many people are of the same opinion as you but I don't agree that everyone who lives and works in the city centre HAS TO drive. I understand it's a blow to have to pay to get to your own home but look to the people who are clogging the roads unnecessarily to blame! Your frustrations are aimed at the wrong people. Come up with a better idea then if you don't think this one will work but it's fruitless just to argue about it without offering any other solution. And no hummer for me! That would contradict my aforementioned opinions regarding clean air, and we all know what an opinionated so and so I am.

King Edward wrote:
If traffic will rise by the claimed percentage then surely congestion charging is necessary to reduce it by a similar figure. I'd vote for it if it meant I could get to jobs quicker in York, then I'd take them, and then I would also shop in York. Congestion without a solution means my money is earnt and spent on trade outside CofYc area.

It's ok for you , you'd just pass the cost onto your customers. Most of us don't have that option. Most people aren't as fortunate as you and can't just stop working in York and go elsewhere. Lots of people don't have good public transport links and can't cycle. But at least you're alright Jack eh?

AngryandFrustrated wrote:

hifive wrote:
Angry and Frustrated - I also live in the city centre and these charges would affect me also as I too often need to drive for work. However, firstly I said it's a price I'm willing to pay - I wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone else - and furthermore, I realise that the problem is bigger than me and me alone! It is impossible to come up with a solution that will not have an adverse effect on some people. You will have to pay a congestion charge but how much petrol money do you currently waste sitting in traffic? If you can get around quicker, the petrol savings should negate any congestion charges. The situation is not ideal for everyone but neither is the predicted vast increase of traffic! We need to weigh things up and stop dimissing ideas just because they pose an inconvenience to the individual.

Let me clarify a few points - I don't "often" have to travel to work in my car, I HAVE TO every day of the working week - if you are lucky enough to have the choice and take advantage of not having to use a car every day, then that is to your benefit.

Secondly, congestion charging will not have an impact on "some" people - it will have an impact on virtually the entire electorate in this area, not just those who live in the city centre but those that have businesses or work in the city centre. Whilst I may be an "individual", several thousand "individuals" makes a large chunk of the population.

Thirdly, I have no idea what sort of car you drive, but I can only assume it is a gas guzzling Hummer if you think it will be cheaper for me to pay the congestion charge than pay for the petrol used whilst sitting in traffic or even be cost neutral - the charge in London is £8 per day - even if it is half that in York at £4 per day, I can assure you that £20 per week is not burned in traffic, given that my weekly fuel bill is less than this due to the green "City Car" I drive.

Indeed. Every hour spent in traffic burns about a litre of fuel, at roughly £1.20 per litre. The London Congestion Charge is £8 per day. That's the equivalent of a long time spent every day in traffic.

pedalling paul wrote:
Unfortunately the instinctive demands of the general public, do not always reflect the advice given by central government to Local Authorities. That advice is reflected in the recommendations made by CoYC Officers to York's elected Cllrs. Take Transport Planning for instance. The man in the street who buys a car, may think he has also bought the open road seen on the TV car ads. Fine until trying to use the vehicle in an urban area at peak times, along with thousands of other like minded souls. We don't have the road capacity and never will. So it is sensible to ecourage voluntary transfer to other travel modes where practicable, to make the most efficient use of our road space.

Do you honestly believe that anyone who buys a car is also under the delusion that he or she is purchasing the freedom of an open road? Most of us buy a car to be a tool to allow us to carry out our complicated daily lives. If we can also afford for that car to be a comfortable high-spec model, then even better, but it's still as much a tool as your bicycle. I don't try to stop you riding your bike or try to charge you for doing so, so why are you constantly trying to make my life more difficult by making me pay even more (that I don't have) to use my car? If I had a simple life and could live near enough to town to cycle or walk, I would do so, but I can't and don't, so why can't you accept that it's horses for courses and live and let live a little (to completely muck about with cliches!)?

Once again the problem of congestion rears its ugly head in York.
And once again I will say the problem can be solved by duelling the the A1237, alot of people including myself, travel through the city to avoid sitting on the current car park of a ring road.
The A64 only ever jams near the Hopgrove roundabout and thats because it reduces to one lane when going straight on.
If we had two lanes going in both directions circling York with slip roads and flyovers, a good percentage of cars would not need to go through the City.

tcrown and nonewsisgoodnews ;I agree but we've got our work cut out trying to convince these self righteous intolerant bigoted and puritanical ultra green cycling global warming gloom merchants otherwise. They won't be satisfied until all produce comes into York on rickshaws and anyone with a set of car keys is pilloried and pelted with green produce. They seem to have an inordinate control on CoYC policy especially that self appointed spokesman for York cyclists Mr Hepworth. Bring on the elections and let the people speak.

Its good this congestion charge plan, 'Improve' junctions and openly admit that the 'improvement' will cause an increase in journey times, then when youve ground the city to a standstill with your hairbrained schemes introduce a congestion charge to line your pockets with more money to waste!! This will never work this, never! I truly believe that before long COYC will come down to earth with an almighty thump. I also have it on good authority that that company that were employed by COYC to help them reduce spending walkied out in december as the council were taking no notice whatsoever!!!

Whistlejacket wrote:
Does the Council's projection of a "28 per cent increase in traffic in the city over the next 15 years" take into account the effect on businesses of the stratospheric rise in rates which is reported in today's Press? It seems more likely that in fifteen years most small businesses will have relocated from York to outlying towns where the rates are much lower. Congestion will be non-existent, as will economic activity. Then pedalling Paul and his public sector pals can paint all the roads in York cycle-lane green and race the tumbleweed round the inner ring road.

Unfortunately when it comes to statistics, especially road-related statistics, PP and his council cronies just pick an arbitrary figure out of thin air which few people can be bothered to check and thus everyone takes as the truth.
`
There are approximately 180,000 people living in York. a 28% increase in car use over 15 years would mean at least a 50% increase in population. York's planning department will simply not allow an additional 45,000 homes to be built in York to house the additional 90,000 people. Where does this demand for road space come from then?
`
The tourists? A great many of the tourists we have come from far and wide (America, Japan, Europe), and would traditionally use public transport for getting around. Those who decide to use a car must hire one - an easy solution, then, limit the number of vehicles available to hire!
`
Presumably the additional 90,000 people which this traffic increase assumes will want to work somewhere. I think anyone with sense can see Nestle operations reducing in terms of manpower required, ditto for places like Portakabin, Norwich Union and good old Terry's and British Sugar as all our industry disappears one by one to Poland, Hungary and China. As Whislejacket says, small business will just **** off to outlier villages.
`
The councils overall strategic plan is flawed. Persons will simply not travel from far and wide for jobs in the tourism industry - they are too poorly paid. Persons on low incomes (traditionally tourism industry) will not be able to afford new homes in York (unless heavily subsidized by the council, which ruins market forces and is another of my pet hates) and will therefore simply work elsewhere.
`
I know the council has a plan for the future. I've read it, and it sounded great. But unfortunately I don't believe the current council has the werewithall to put a strategic plan into action. As a result, we have 15 departments singing 25 different songs from 35 different hymn sheets. The overall effect? Time will only tell, I suppose, but it's not looking good for York.

The Council make up statistics to suit their aims..
dont believe a word of their figures as they will not be correct.
There is a very interesting report in the papers about the future of cities and the concensus is that retail will move to large out of town centres which will act more as distribution centres for internet purchasing and the hole in the city centres left by the departing shops will be reoccupied as housing etc so congestion charging will not be needed

HeworthSnapper wrote:
If this council stopped wasting money, there would be no need to dream up yet more stupid ideas like this one!

perfection is rare - you got it in one. Well said