Former Archbishop of Canterbury criticises theft advice from York priest (From York Press)
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Former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, criticises theft advice from York priest Father Tim Jones
9:33am Monday 28th December 2009 in News By Megi Rychlikova, megi.rychlikova@thepress.co.uk
A FORMER Archbishop of Canterbury has described as “misguided and foolish” the advice from a York priest who told needy people to shoplift.
Lord Carey spoke out after hearing about the sermon that Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda, preached on the Sunday before Christmas.
Writing in a national newspaper yesterday, the former archbishop said: “His concern for the least well-off is admirable, but his remedy is both misguided and foolish.”
He added: “Of all people, priests ought to know right from wrong, and stealing – whatever the circumstances – is always wrong.”
In his sermon, Father Jones spoke of the difficulties facing those with very little income. “For many at the bottom of our social ladder, lawful, honest life can sometimes seem to be an apparent impossibility,” he said.
Lord Carey said: “We aren’t in a Dickensian era when people were driven to picking a pocket or two in order to survive.
“There is now a safety net provided by the state, with many charities offering advice, food and shelter. Nobody is dying of hunger, even though the inequalities of our society are still greater than they should be.”
Father Jones described how those in need may feel themselves driven to burgle or rob, or turn to prostitution.
“Instead, I would rather that they shoplift,” he said. “My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither.” He asked people not to steal from family concerns but from large, national businesses.
Comments(23)
Get-a-grip
says...
10:57am Mon 28 Dec 09
Pity this has not come from the current Archbishops of Canterbury and York, especially the latter.
GoodDoc
says...
11:10am Mon 28 Dec 09
GoodDoc
says...
11:16am Mon 28 Dec 09
What part of that don't you understand!?
Garrowby Turnoff
says...
11:57am Mon 28 Dec 09
GoodDoc wrote:The message you quote is unclear due to being fashioned in a "Bible-style" lingo that requires a bit of thinking.
"I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is NEITHER"..."Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift" What part of that don't you understand!?
redr
says...
11:57am Mon 28 Dec 09
GoodDoc
says...
12:04pm Mon 28 Dec 09
TooRad
says...
2:48pm Mon 28 Dec 09
Now, I'm not like saying it isn't snide n that to go out choring cos it is but if you've proper got nowt and you have to do something for them bairns then like just rob from big shops n that, you get me? Cuz its better than knocking out brown or being on the game n stuff and its well better than robbing off your mates dads garage or whatever, you don't cr@p on your own doorstep do you? Big shops innit.
Remember, don't like get me all wrong n that, I'm not saying robbing is cool cos robbing is proper wrong n everything and I'm not saying its cool for everyone to just like go out on the rob all the time, I proper aren't saying that. Just only like the poorest of the poor if there's proper nowt else you can do. You get me?"
Get-a-grip
says...
3:28pm Mon 28 Dec 09
And as for there not being any 'starving' people in the UK? Wake up! There's over 3million people malnourished, and estimates of 250 people per year dying of starvation.
You wake up GoodDoc, that's utter ****. Justify your delusions, which appear to coincide with those of Jones.
GoodDoc
says...
3:44pm Mon 28 Dec 09
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/1/hi/health/787920
1.stm
Or just type in UK malnutrition into google. My figures are bang on the money - 3million malnourished and 240 odd died in 1 year. Ha and I bet you were thinking everyone was tucking into a roast turkey this Christmas. My god, the naivity of some people is breath-taking!
GoodDoc
says...
4:12pm Mon 28 Dec 09
Get-a-grip
says...
4:17pm Mon 28 Dec 09
1. An inadequate diet due to illness, disorder or mobility challenges
Stomach or intestinal conditions, which may prevent the body from absorbing nutrients or may result in diarrhoea and vomiting leading to the body's loss of nutrients
2. Alcoholism, as alcohol contains enough calories to prevent the feeling of hunger but does not provide any other nutrients required to retain good health
3. Drug misuse, which can affect body tissue in the liver, pancreas, and brain, and impair the body's ability to absorb nutrients.
Nothing shoplifting can alleviate, and in the many articles I have read poverty is not really an issue. Hardly surprising, our generous benefit system is more than adequate, there's no need to steal.
GoodDoc
says...
4:46pm Mon 28 Dec 09
If you read the full transcript, you'd notice that he is suggesting the benefit system is slow and ineffective. That's pretty uncontroversial. If you ran out of food, didn't have a family and were in the situation Jones is describing, what would you do? He is not suggesting that all shoplifting is done to alleviate starvation, but that IF it is done for this reason, and done for as short a time as necessary who are we to judge?
I'd be willing to bet money that Carey, along with most of the hypocritical complainants, has not read the full sermon. It makes him look exceedingly foolish and out of touch to imply that Jones was promoting shoplifting, or that starvation does not exist. Yet another lazy opinion that has alienated Anglicans. Thank god he's gone!
Garrowby Turnoff
says...
5:57pm Mon 28 Dec 09
TooRad wrote:LOL. The sad confession is... I understand every word you've writted. I'nit.
"My dear parishioners. Ere, listen yeah, its like xmas innit, so don't be forgettin like all the poor people n that, cuz like some of em have to like wait for their giro n that so they can't afford to get the micro chips n carling n whatnot in. Now, I'm not like saying it isn't snide n that to go out choring cos it is but if you've proper got nowt and you have to do something for them bairns then like just rob from big shops n that, you get me? Cuz its better than knocking out brown or being on the game n stuff and its well better than robbing off your mates dads garage or whatever, you don't cr@p on your own doorstep do you? Big shops innit. Remember, don't like get me all wrong n that, I'm not saying robbing is cool cos robbing is proper wrong n everything and I'm not saying its cool for everyone to just like go out on the rob all the time, I proper aren't saying that. Just only like the poorest of the poor if there's proper nowt else you can do. You get me?"
tell the truth
says...
6:21pm Mon 28 Dec 09
GoodDoc wrote:I understand every part of it. However what you and he fail to understand is the 10 commandments.
"I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is NEITHER"..."Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift" What part of that don't you understand!?
redr
says...
7:34pm Mon 28 Dec 09
tell the truth wrote:And what you (tell the truth) fail to understand is the entire message contained within the new testament. If someone is hungry, feed them don’t judge them.
GoodDoc wrote: "I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is NEITHER"..."Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift" What part of that don't you understand!?I understand every part of it. However what you and he fail to understand is the 10 commandments.
GoodDoc
says...
7:52pm Mon 28 Dec 09
""What then, of the eighth commandment? “Thou shalt not steal.” Is this advice to usurp the authority of Almighty God? No. Not the God who is born of Mary, Mary whose soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord etc etc etc""
So, dear 'Tell', I'd suggest not only do you not understand 'every part of it', but you fail to understand the very most basic idea - that stealing is NOT good, nor harmless, but in certain situations makes more sense than the alternative. For pity's sake, how much more dumbing down do we have to do before the penny drops? Clearly someone that doesn't 'get' the Bible, Christianity, or common-sense in general!
tell the truth
says...
8:16pm Mon 28 Dec 09
GoodDoc wrote:Presumably you're one of the observe only the commandments I want to bridgade. Ummm - oh yes I remember, its not the 10 commandments - its the 7- let's omit those we don't like - steal, adultery and bear false witness
'Tell the truth', please, in the interests of at least appearing vaguely balanced, read the sermon that you're trying to criticise. Actually, you clearly can't be bothered to educate yourself so let me pick out the precise part that answers your question.
""What then, of the eighth commandment? “Thou shalt not steal.” Is this advice to usurp the authority of Almighty God? No. Not the God who is born of Mary, Mary whose soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord etc etc etc""
So, dear 'Tell', I'd suggest not only do you not understand 'every part of it', but you fail to understand the very most basic idea - that stealing is NOT good, nor harmless, but in certain situations makes more sense than the alternative. For pity's sake, how much more dumbing down do we have to do before the penny drops? Clearly someone that doesn't 'get' the Bible, Christianity, or common-sense in general!
GoodDoc
says...
9:20pm Mon 28 Dec 09
Mr Jones not say that stealing OK.
Mr Jones not say that commandments are wrong or can be ignored.
Mr Jones say that sadly shoplifting is the best out of bad options, which means we are in a bad situation.
Get it? He's a vicar. He says "Is this advice to usurp the authority of Almighty God? No". (That means, is this advice to ignore God? No).
OK? Seriously, neither he, nor myself can make this any simpler for you!
You're obviously one of these so-called Christians who thinks they can live their life by the Bible yet go entirely against the teachings of Christ himself. Teachings of love and generosity, rather than the didactic orders of the Old Testament. No no, you want to judge so feel free. Anyone who steals to survive, you will strike them down! For they have broken a commandment! And sure, you're a Christian. No wonder they're a dying breed. :(
tell the truth
says...
10:40am Tue 29 Dec 09
GoodDoc wrote:Keep your halo on! You seem very rattled.
Tell, You really don't get it do you? Not even when it's written in front of you. I don't know if I can simplify it any further.
Mr Jones not say that stealing OK.
Mr Jones not say that commandments are wrong or can be ignored.
Mr Jones say that sadly shoplifting is the best out of bad options, which means we are in a bad situation.
Get it? He's a vicar. He says "Is this advice to usurp the authority of Almighty God? No". (That means, is this advice to ignore God? No).
OK? Seriously, neither he, nor myself can make this any simpler for you!
You're obviously one of these so-called Christians who thinks they can live their life by the Bible yet go entirely against the teachings of Christ himself. Teachings of love and generosity, rather than the didactic orders of the Old Testament. No no, you want to judge so feel free. Anyone who steals to survive, you will strike them down! For they have broken a commandment! And sure, you're a Christian. No wonder they're a dying breed. :(
The reason churches are empty is because of this believe what you like attitude.
GoodDoc
says...
11:20am Tue 29 Dec 09
Well I personally feel that if any so-called Christian disagrees with the actual message of the sermon, they can hardly call themselves Christian at all. Attacking someone for sticking up for the poor at Christmas. Appalling! They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
Get-a-grip
says...
2:01am Wed 30 Dec 09
The reason churches are empty is because of this believe what you like attitude.
No moral leadership at all when a priest advises people to shoplift, and the Archbishop of York refuses to correct him. It's left to a past Archbishop of Canterbury to deal with the matter,
GoodDoc
says...
5:39pm Wed 30 Dec 09
ndevr says...
10:29am Mon 28 Dec 09