Lap dancing club at Tokyo nightclub in Toft Green, York, is given go ahead by City of York Council

Lap dancing club is given go-ahead by council

Lap dancing club is given go-ahead by council

First published in News
Last updated
York Press: Photograph of the Author by , Chief reporter

First published: 11.26am, Tuesday 22 July 2014

COUNCILLORS have voted to allow a second lap dancing club in York city centre – but have called for a review of the city’s policies on such venues.

The club will open on the first floor of Tokyo nightclub in Toft Green in a couple of months’ time, following a majority vote last night by City of York Council’s Licensing Committee in favour of granting a licence.

The decision came in spite of strong objections by the nearby Hampton by Hilton Hotel and Safestay Tourist Hostel, which feared the new club would exacerbate existing problems with noise, drunkenness and anti-social behaviour in the street.

Feminists also objected with Jenny Wilke raising concerns at the meeting that the club would operate close to York’s only other current strip club – above Mansion in Micklegate – and also near several sensitive venues such as women’s refuges, schools, nurseries, and places of worship.

Another concern raised by councillors was that disabled people would not be able to gain access to the club, with Cllr Ken King saying: “Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.”

Tokyo’s solicitor said the club would look into providing access for disabled people.

Sarah Smith, solicitor for the applicants, said the club would reduce the problems of noise, as customers would arrive and depart discreetly and without long queues developing in the street. There would be a separate entrance to the nightclub and no direct access between the two clubs.

She also said there was no evidence in York or anywhere else that women in the area of lap dancing clubs would be at any increased risk of assault by men departing from such clubs.

She told councillors that such clubs were not to everyone’s taste, but they were a legal pastime and were a part of the night-time economy.

Committee chair Cllr Barbara Boyce said members had agreed to a review of the council’s policies on sexual entertainment venues, which had not been updated for a number of years. It might look, for example, at putting a limit on the number of lap dancing clubs to be allowed in the city.

Comments (38)

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11:54am Tue 22 Jul 14

notmyrealname says...

“Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.”
Unbelievable comment .
Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected
“Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” Unbelievable comment . Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected notmyrealname
  • Score: -5

12:02pm Tue 22 Jul 14

George Smiley says...

A victory for common sense. I look forward to departing with lots of my hard earned cash in this wonderful den of iniquity.
A victory for common sense. I look forward to departing with lots of my hard earned cash in this wonderful den of iniquity. George Smiley
  • Score: 29

12:41pm Tue 22 Jul 14

rothko says...

Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo.
Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo. rothko
  • Score: -7

12:42pm Tue 22 Jul 14

The Grim Reaper says...

notmyrealname wrote:
“Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.”
Unbelievable comment .
Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected
Next, you'll be complaining about having it rammed down your throat........

Seriously though, if you do not want to use a lap dancing venue, don't. But at least have the common decency to allow others (law abiding citizens) that want to, to be able to.
[quote][p][bold]notmyrealname[/bold] wrote: “Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” Unbelievable comment . Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected[/p][/quote]Next, you'll be complaining about having it rammed down your throat........ Seriously though, if you do not want to use a lap dancing venue, don't. But at least have the common decency to allow others (law abiding citizens) that want to, to be able to. The Grim Reaper
  • Score: 24

12:53pm Tue 22 Jul 14

Ignatius Lumpopo says...

"Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” I wonder if Cllr King could clarify on whether some of his best friends are disabled BECAUSE they participate?
"Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” I wonder if Cllr King could clarify on whether some of his best friends are disabled BECAUSE they participate? Ignatius Lumpopo
  • Score: -5

12:54pm Tue 22 Jul 14

Fat Harry says...

notmyrealname wrote:
“Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” Unbelievable comment . Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected
No, it don't think Coun King's comment was a reason for allowing it, but an expression of a concern that a section of the population is being discriminated against.

No matter how distasteful we might find such a "club" it is legal. If major structural alterations were being made, disabled access would be mandatory. Perhaps it ought to be the same for the opening of what is essentially a new venue.
[quote][p][bold]notmyrealname[/bold] wrote: “Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” Unbelievable comment . Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected[/p][/quote]No, it don't think Coun King's comment was a reason for allowing it, but an expression of a concern that a section of the population is being discriminated against. No matter how distasteful we might find such a "club" it is legal. If major structural alterations were being made, disabled access would be mandatory. Perhaps it ought to be the same for the opening of what is essentially a new venue. Fat Harry
  • Score: 9

5:35pm Tue 22 Jul 14

Pinza-C55 says...

"Sarah Smith, solicitor for the applicants, said the club would reduce the problems of noise, as customers would arrive and depart discreetly and without long queues developing in the street."
Yes Sarah we believe you.
I seem to remember that when Toffs? Tru? was granted a late license when these were first available, one of the conditions was that they would employ 2 litter pickers on Saturday and Sunday morning? I've never seen them.
Are these conditions negotiable or are neither the club nor the council bothered about them?
"Sarah Smith, solicitor for the applicants, said the club would reduce the problems of noise, as customers would arrive and depart discreetly and without long queues developing in the street." Yes Sarah we believe you. I seem to remember that when Toffs? Tru? was granted a late license when these were first available, one of the conditions was that they would employ 2 litter pickers on Saturday and Sunday morning? I've never seen them. Are these conditions negotiable or are neither the club nor the council bothered about them? Pinza-C55
  • Score: 7

8:35pm Tue 22 Jul 14

gwen4me says...

Its a good job not every application is turned down because of objections from locals, we`d still be living in the stone age.
Its a good job not every application is turned down because of objections from locals, we`d still be living in the stone age. gwen4me
  • Score: 4

11:01pm Tue 22 Jul 14

Blythespirit says...

George Smiley wrote:
A victory for common sense. I look forward to departing with lots of my hard earned cash in this wonderful den of iniquity.
Yeah? I wonder how many women in York feel the same? Nasty thrills for sad drunk fools!
[quote][p][bold]George Smiley[/bold] wrote: A victory for common sense. I look forward to departing with lots of my hard earned cash in this wonderful den of iniquity.[/p][/quote]Yeah? I wonder how many women in York feel the same? Nasty thrills for sad drunk fools! Blythespirit
  • Score: 9

7:39am Wed 23 Jul 14

BethFoxhunter96 says...

It is such a shame that the licensing committee is unable to decide on the balance of feminism and progress and ban these awful places. They objectify women, teaching boys and men that girls are nothing more than boobs and exist only for their titillation. There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York.
It is such a shame that the licensing committee is unable to decide on the balance of feminism and progress and ban these awful places. They objectify women, teaching boys and men that girls are nothing more than boobs and exist only for their titillation. There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York. BethFoxhunter96
  • Score: 11

8:12am Wed 23 Jul 14

MrsHoney says...

I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on when it comes to lap dancing. I wouldn't be that impressed if my husband went (but then he wouldn't want me going to a female equivalent, not that you get them cause women would just laugh at the men rather then get some cheap thrill from them waving their bum in your face!) I do think it's a shame some people feel they have to pay for the attention of women, must be a lonely life.
I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on when it comes to lap dancing. I wouldn't be that impressed if my husband went (but then he wouldn't want me going to a female equivalent, not that you get them cause women would just laugh at the men rather then get some cheap thrill from them waving their bum in your face!) I do think it's a shame some people feel they have to pay for the attention of women, must be a lonely life. MrsHoney
  • Score: 14

10:04am Wed 23 Jul 14

Loollah says...

rothko wrote:
Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo.
Why? It'll have a seperate entrance, it'll be open a lot later than any gigs that will be run in Fibbers. Chances are, you'll hardly even know it was there! If it puts you off going to enjoy live music and supporting your local music scene, perhaps you should stay at home with a cup of cocoa!
[quote][p][bold]rothko[/bold] wrote: Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo.[/p][/quote]Why? It'll have a seperate entrance, it'll be open a lot later than any gigs that will be run in Fibbers. Chances are, you'll hardly even know it was there! If it puts you off going to enjoy live music and supporting your local music scene, perhaps you should stay at home with a cup of cocoa! Loollah
  • Score: 0

10:52am Wed 23 Jul 14

spell_it_out says...

I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy? spell_it_out
  • Score: 15

11:33am Wed 23 Jul 14

PhilTopping says...

These are awful places and York City Council should be ashamed to be legitimising them. I've worked in the social sector for many decades and venues such as these are gateways for the sex industry. Many girls start in this industry at such places and then spiral into much bleaker worlds. The lap dancing industry always highlights the part time student who saves enough to put herself through university, but always fails to point out that the majority are foreign born, naive girls that see the sex industry as the answer to all their problems. In fact, it's the door to a world most of them could never have imagined.

Shame.
These are awful places and York City Council should be ashamed to be legitimising them. I've worked in the social sector for many decades and venues such as these are gateways for the sex industry. Many girls start in this industry at such places and then spiral into much bleaker worlds. The lap dancing industry always highlights the part time student who saves enough to put herself through university, but always fails to point out that the majority are foreign born, naive girls that see the sex industry as the answer to all their problems. In fact, it's the door to a world most of them could never have imagined. Shame. PhilTopping
  • Score: 23

3:42pm Wed 23 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

spell_it_out wrote:
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
Unfortunately York is becoming more like that these days. More bars, shops closing. So many hen and stag dos now. On a Saturday afternoon down Coney street you see some sights, and hear them shouting drunkenly amongst the tourists and shoppers. Awful!
[quote][p][bold]spell_it_out[/bold] wrote: I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately York is becoming more like that these days. More bars, shops closing. So many hen and stag dos now. On a Saturday afternoon down Coney street you see some sights, and hear them shouting drunkenly amongst the tourists and shoppers. Awful! Foxwhite
  • Score: 12

3:46pm Wed 23 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

MrsHoney wrote:
I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on when it comes to lap dancing. I wouldn't be that impressed if my husband went (but then he wouldn't want me going to a female equivalent, not that you get them cause women would just laugh at the men rather then get some cheap thrill from them waving their bum in your face!) I do think it's a shame some people feel they have to pay for the attention of women, must be a lonely life.
Can you imagine a male lapdancing club. It would be a laugh indeed! Men put so much focus and importance on the female form. Most of the men who go in these places you definitely wouldn't want to see half naked! They need to take a look at themselves, and respect women more!
[quote][p][bold]MrsHoney[/bold] wrote: I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on when it comes to lap dancing. I wouldn't be that impressed if my husband went (but then he wouldn't want me going to a female equivalent, not that you get them cause women would just laugh at the men rather then get some cheap thrill from them waving their bum in your face!) I do think it's a shame some people feel they have to pay for the attention of women, must be a lonely life.[/p][/quote]Can you imagine a male lapdancing club. It would be a laugh indeed! Men put so much focus and importance on the female form. Most of the men who go in these places you definitely wouldn't want to see half naked! They need to take a look at themselves, and respect women more! Foxwhite
  • Score: 6

4:41pm Wed 23 Jul 14

toweliechaos says...

spell_it_out wrote:
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
"The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right"

So you are content to deny some people a career/job that makes them happy because you don't like what they do?

Object to the places if you like, but that doesn't give you the right to impart moral judgement on the venues or their employees. You don't like it - fine. Doesn't mean other people feel the same. Clearly, plenty do as the market dictates this sort of thing.
[quote][p][bold]spell_it_out[/bold] wrote: I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?[/p][/quote]"The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right" So you are content to deny some people a career/job that makes them happy because you don't like what they do? Object to the places if you like, but that doesn't give you the right to impart moral judgement on the venues or their employees. You don't like it - fine. Doesn't mean other people feel the same. Clearly, plenty do as the market dictates this sort of thing. toweliechaos
  • Score: -8

4:51pm Wed 23 Jul 14

wildthing666 says...

How long before workfare involves stripping for your benefits.
How long before workfare involves stripping for your benefits. wildthing666
  • Score: 2

4:53pm Wed 23 Jul 14

wildthing666 says...

rothko wrote:
Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo.
I've just bought a gig ticket for fibbers thought it was still in stonebow oh well gig then out of the place.
[quote][p][bold]rothko[/bold] wrote: Puts me off visiting the relocated Fibbers which is also in Tokyo.[/p][/quote]I've just bought a gig ticket for fibbers thought it was still in stonebow oh well gig then out of the place. wildthing666
  • Score: 3

5:25pm Wed 23 Jul 14

meme says...

Last one I went to in York was on Micklegate ON A STAG NIGHT and to all you feminists out there there were as many women customers in there as men..I was surprised but most were hen nights having a laugh as they have a sense of humour unlike some.
its hardly a serious sexual experience in York unlike Amsterdam and more a passing through point on boys/girls nights out
what on earth is wrong with that? plus I suspect its a god living for the dancers and as far as I am aware they are not forced to do this, we are not forced to go in, no one is on public display so lighten up and live and let live
Last one I went to in York was on Micklegate ON A STAG NIGHT and to all you feminists out there there were as many women customers in there as men..I was surprised but most were hen nights having a laugh as they have a sense of humour unlike some. its hardly a serious sexual experience in York unlike Amsterdam and more a passing through point on boys/girls nights out what on earth is wrong with that? plus I suspect its a god living for the dancers and as far as I am aware they are not forced to do this, we are not forced to go in, no one is on public display so lighten up and live and let live meme
  • Score: -9

5:35pm Wed 23 Jul 14

Steve, says...

"There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York." prove it.

It really doesn't matter what any of you moaners think about women in these places, If anything, it's wrong to impart your snooty views on them doing it. If certain women choose to earn money this way then that's their choice, they haven't cast an opinion on you, being judgemental about them.
"There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York." prove it. It really doesn't matter what any of you moaners think about women in these places, If anything, it's wrong to impart your snooty views on them doing it. If certain women choose to earn money this way then that's their choice, they haven't cast an opinion on you, being judgemental about them. Steve,
  • Score: -11

8:22pm Wed 23 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

No surprise someone who has not an idea of the reality trots out the trope about rape. Interestingly the Lilith report which was the basis of the claim has been taken off the Eaves website as research looking at 12 years of data for Camden, where the original 3 year analysis was done, showed that rape actually fell. This also applies to Newquay that rape fell while a council who lost striptease saw rape increase (Wandsworth). The reality is there is no causal link between clubs and VAW.

Research in 2009 showed that 87% of dancers have at least qualifications in higher education. So we are not talking about the average dancer being stupid but for those against clubs it makes it seem they are being exploited when in fact they earn on average £240 per shift after fees and deductions. This average even includes the occasional night where dancers don't make money.

As for the person who commented on male strippers having had a friend who is a bouncer at these sort of events he says it is much more aggressive when male strippers are working as opposed to female dancers.

So people making moral judgments without checking facts might want to go back and look at things again.
No surprise someone who has not an idea of the reality trots out the trope about rape. Interestingly the Lilith report which was the basis of the claim has been taken off the Eaves website as research looking at 12 years of data for Camden, where the original 3 year analysis was done, showed that rape actually fell. This also applies to Newquay that rape fell while a council who lost striptease saw rape increase (Wandsworth). The reality is there is no causal link between clubs and VAW. Research in 2009 showed that 87% of dancers have at least qualifications in higher education. So we are not talking about the average dancer being stupid but for those against clubs it makes it seem they are being exploited when in fact they earn on average £240 per shift after fees and deductions. This average even includes the occasional night where dancers don't make money. As for the person who commented on male strippers having had a friend who is a bouncer at these sort of events he says it is much more aggressive when male strippers are working as opposed to female dancers. So people making moral judgments without checking facts might want to go back and look at things again. TonyN1965
  • Score: -1

7:30am Thu 24 Jul 14

MilkandTwo says...

The Grim Reaper wrote:
notmyrealname wrote:
“Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.”
Unbelievable comment .
Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected
Next, you'll be complaining about having it rammed down your throat........

Seriously though, if you do not want to use a lap dancing venue, don't. But at least have the common decency to allow others (law abiding citizens) that want to, to be able to.
Some irony that "common decency" is a reason for supporting lap dancing
[quote][p][bold]The Grim Reaper[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]notmyrealname[/bold] wrote: “Sex is here to stay and some of my best friends participate, and some are disabled.” Unbelievable comment . Is that justification for allowing it - when local residents have objected[/p][/quote]Next, you'll be complaining about having it rammed down your throat........ Seriously though, if you do not want to use a lap dancing venue, don't. But at least have the common decency to allow others (law abiding citizens) that want to, to be able to.[/p][/quote]Some irony that "common decency" is a reason for supporting lap dancing MilkandTwo
  • Score: 5

9:23am Thu 24 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

Re common decency, yeah it is a funny term. I dislike the brainwashing done by religion and the fact it is based on threats of damnation. I would love to see places like that need approval of the local community so I could stop them. But common decency is I allow others to do what they want behind closed doors rather than pushing my morals on others.

As to male lap dancing I believe that one club in Blackpool does it and there use to Lap Attack in London where Chico worked.

As to women noticing the club research by Kent and Loughborough has shown most people (male and female) will walk past club without knowing they are there unless it is pointed out. Also that research showed bars, pubs, discos. nightclubs and even restaurants are much more likely to be a nuisance.

Seems their is a lot of beliefs that have no basis in facts and the real world.
Re common decency, yeah it is a funny term. I dislike the brainwashing done by religion and the fact it is based on threats of damnation. I would love to see places like that need approval of the local community so I could stop them. But common decency is I allow others to do what they want behind closed doors rather than pushing my morals on others. As to male lap dancing I believe that one club in Blackpool does it and there use to Lap Attack in London where Chico worked. As to women noticing the club research by Kent and Loughborough has shown most people (male and female) will walk past club without knowing they are there unless it is pointed out. Also that research showed bars, pubs, discos. nightclubs and even restaurants are much more likely to be a nuisance. Seems their is a lot of beliefs that have no basis in facts and the real world. TonyN1965
  • Score: -2

9:48am Thu 24 Jul 14

Leeby2 says...

Foxwhite wrote:
spell_it_out wrote:
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
Unfortunately York is becoming more like that these days. More bars, shops closing. So many hen and stag dos now. On a Saturday afternoon down Coney street you see some sights, and hear them shouting drunkenly amongst the tourists and shoppers. Awful!
To all the men who say they don't see the problem with them (and by the way, would you want your girlfriend or daughter working there?), they may be harmless fun for one night but the problem is they're harmful to society as a whole because they objectify women, encouraging men to see women as being there purely for their entertainment.
[quote][p][bold]Foxwhite[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spell_it_out[/bold] wrote: I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?[/p][/quote]Unfortunately York is becoming more like that these days. More bars, shops closing. So many hen and stag dos now. On a Saturday afternoon down Coney street you see some sights, and hear them shouting drunkenly amongst the tourists and shoppers. Awful![/p][/quote]To all the men who say they don't see the problem with them (and by the way, would you want your girlfriend or daughter working there?), they may be harmless fun for one night but the problem is they're harmful to society as a whole because they objectify women, encouraging men to see women as being there purely for their entertainment. Leeby2
  • Score: 6

9:58am Thu 24 Jul 14

Leeby2 says...

spell_it_out wrote:
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
Why do so many people say ''I'm not a feminist'' as if it's something to be ashamed of? All feminists want is equal treatment of women - I would hope EVERYBODY's a feminist!!!
[quote][p][bold]spell_it_out[/bold] wrote: I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?[/p][/quote]Why do so many people say ''I'm not a feminist'' as if it's something to be ashamed of? All feminists want is equal treatment of women - I would hope EVERYBODY's a feminist!!! Leeby2
  • Score: 13

10:31am Thu 24 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

I have been looking forward to the use of the argument objectification. One of my favourites as you find those people using it are the ultimate in objectification as they are using other women's bodies as a political battlefield without consent.

So the first issue is the fact the argument implies men cannot do anything else than see a woman as an object or in this case a sex object. Yes men will see a woman and react to some level about sexual attraction but that is nature this assumption that a man in a club would not be able to separate fact from fantasy suggests that all men are no more than sexual beasts (way to go objectifying the whole of the male gender.

Secondly have you ever seen the interaction between dancers and their walking ATMs (aka customers)? You will find that 90% of customers see the dancer as a human being rather than an object but doing proper research on this would benefit those who are anti SEVs!

Having looked at the way objectification was originally identified by Stanford you are going to find that nature has applied those drivers to men and it is perfectly natural but lets label it and make people feel bad,

I could go on as I have several resources I have yet to quote but the real world is calling.
I have been looking forward to the use of the argument objectification. One of my favourites as you find those people using it are the ultimate in objectification as they are using other women's bodies as a political battlefield without consent. So the first issue is the fact the argument implies men cannot do anything else than see a woman as an object or in this case a sex object. Yes men will see a woman and react to some level about sexual attraction but that is nature this assumption that a man in a club would not be able to separate fact from fantasy suggests that all men are no more than sexual beasts (way to go objectifying the whole of the male gender. Secondly have you ever seen the interaction between dancers and their walking ATMs (aka customers)? You will find that 90% of customers see the dancer as a human being rather than an object but doing proper research on this would benefit those who are anti SEVs! Having looked at the way objectification was originally identified by Stanford you are going to find that nature has applied those drivers to men and it is perfectly natural but lets label it and make people feel bad, I could go on as I have several resources I have yet to quote but the real world is calling. TonyN1965
  • Score: -7

1:29pm Thu 24 Jul 14

holden79 says...

I think the bouncers throw you out if you're caught objectificating.
I think the bouncers throw you out if you're caught objectificating. holden79
  • Score: 0

2:37pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

Leeby2 wrote:
spell_it_out wrote:
I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?
Why do so many people say ''I'm not a feminist'' as if it's something to be ashamed of? All feminists want is equal treatment of women - I would hope EVERYBODY's a feminist!!!
Here Here well said! Equality for all!
[quote][p][bold]Leeby2[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spell_it_out[/bold] wrote: I am not a feminist but I am very much against the exploitation of women in this way. It saddens me that the City of York council think this is acceptable. The dancers may be happy in their job but that doesn't make it right. I do not think that lap dancing clubs have a place in our society. They are seen as sleazy and something to have a giggle at - is that what York is becoming - sleazy?[/p][/quote]Why do so many people say ''I'm not a feminist'' as if it's something to be ashamed of? All feminists want is equal treatment of women - I would hope EVERYBODY's a feminist!!![/p][/quote]Here Here well said! Equality for all! Foxwhite
  • Score: 2

2:49pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

TonyN1965 wrote:
I have been looking forward to the use of the argument objectification. One of my favourites as you find those people using it are the ultimate in objectification as they are using other women's bodies as a political battlefield without consent.

So the first issue is the fact the argument implies men cannot do anything else than see a woman as an object or in this case a sex object. Yes men will see a woman and react to some level about sexual attraction but that is nature this assumption that a man in a club would not be able to separate fact from fantasy suggests that all men are no more than sexual beasts (way to go objectifying the whole of the male gender.

Secondly have you ever seen the interaction between dancers and their walking ATMs (aka customers)? You will find that 90% of customers see the dancer as a human being rather than an object but doing proper research on this would benefit those who are anti SEVs!

Having looked at the way objectification was originally identified by Stanford you are going to find that nature has applied those drivers to men and it is perfectly natural but lets label it and make people feel bad,

I could go on as I have several resources I have yet to quote but the real world is calling.
TonyN1965

So are you saying that it is only natural that men would want to visit such places?
Is it due to nature that men feel they have the right to blatantly ogle women in the street, usually when they are with their girlfriend / wife at the time. (I have been ogled at and it isn't welcome. I have also been shouted at my a group of young lads, who were far too young to be thinking about a women's bottom!)
Is it because men just can't help themselves, because that is the way they are made? Or is it a lack of respect towards women in general?
[quote][p][bold]TonyN1965[/bold] wrote: I have been looking forward to the use of the argument objectification. One of my favourites as you find those people using it are the ultimate in objectification as they are using other women's bodies as a political battlefield without consent. So the first issue is the fact the argument implies men cannot do anything else than see a woman as an object or in this case a sex object. Yes men will see a woman and react to some level about sexual attraction but that is nature this assumption that a man in a club would not be able to separate fact from fantasy suggests that all men are no more than sexual beasts (way to go objectifying the whole of the male gender. Secondly have you ever seen the interaction between dancers and their walking ATMs (aka customers)? You will find that 90% of customers see the dancer as a human being rather than an object but doing proper research on this would benefit those who are anti SEVs! Having looked at the way objectification was originally identified by Stanford you are going to find that nature has applied those drivers to men and it is perfectly natural but lets label it and make people feel bad, I could go on as I have several resources I have yet to quote but the real world is calling.[/p][/quote]TonyN1965 So are you saying that it is only natural that men would want to visit such places? Is it due to nature that men feel they have the right to blatantly ogle women in the street, usually when they are with their girlfriend / wife at the time. (I have been ogled at and it isn't welcome. I have also been shouted at my a group of young lads, who were far too young to be thinking about a women's bottom!) Is it because men just can't help themselves, because that is the way they are made? Or is it a lack of respect towards women in general? Foxwhite
  • Score: 2

3:22pm Thu 24 Jul 14

JoeR says...

I've no objection to the lapdancing clubs themselves, but can the council at least do something about people hanging around Ouse Bridge drumming up trade (e.g. make it a condition of the licence)? It's very distasteful.
I've no objection to the lapdancing clubs themselves, but can the council at least do something about people hanging around Ouse Bridge drumming up trade (e.g. make it a condition of the licence)? It's very distasteful. JoeR
  • Score: 0

6:44pm Thu 24 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

Firstly I do think my point earlier about using the bodies of other women to play gender politics is pretty well proven going by the comments so far by those against the clubs.

However lets pick up on the issue of men being respectful around women and how clubs help socialise guys into treating women with respect. I have seen thousands of guys in clubs over the years and in general they are better behaved and more polite because of it. Yes you will get the occasional idiot but in general terms guys who go to clubs learn respect mainly because if they don't a very large bouncer will explain the situation to them. I also find that as guys get older they become more respectful. Of course this is in the clubs and I have no idea what they are like outside the clubs but certainly around the location of clubs with cctv and bouncers you can expect a downturn in bad behaviour.

Obviously the issue with men's sexuality is something where pinning the blame on SEVs makes it easy when in fact the clubs don't cause the attitudes that some blame them for. Reality is that sexual repression especially by religion is much more likely to cause backlashes than clubs and in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women. The biggest issue will be the tribal effect of large groups but I am betting that women get far more issues around night clubs than they ever would outside SEVs.

Finally why don't you go talk to a few working dancers and see what they think about you interference of them earning a living.
Firstly I do think my point earlier about using the bodies of other women to play gender politics is pretty well proven going by the comments so far by those against the clubs. However lets pick up on the issue of men being respectful around women and how clubs help socialise guys into treating women with respect. I have seen thousands of guys in clubs over the years and in general they are better behaved and more polite because of it. Yes you will get the occasional idiot but in general terms guys who go to clubs learn respect mainly because if they don't a very large bouncer will explain the situation to them. I also find that as guys get older they become more respectful. Of course this is in the clubs and I have no idea what they are like outside the clubs but certainly around the location of clubs with cctv and bouncers you can expect a downturn in bad behaviour. Obviously the issue with men's sexuality is something where pinning the blame on SEVs makes it easy when in fact the clubs don't cause the attitudes that some blame them for. Reality is that sexual repression especially by religion is much more likely to cause backlashes than clubs and in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women. The biggest issue will be the tribal effect of large groups but I am betting that women get far more issues around night clubs than they ever would outside SEVs. Finally why don't you go talk to a few working dancers and see what they think about you interference of them earning a living. TonyN1965
  • Score: -5

11:23am Fri 25 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

TonyN1965 wrote:
Firstly I do think my point earlier about using the bodies of other women to play gender politics is pretty well proven going by the comments so far by those against the clubs.

However lets pick up on the issue of men being respectful around women and how clubs help socialise guys into treating women with respect. I have seen thousands of guys in clubs over the years and in general they are better behaved and more polite because of it. Yes you will get the occasional idiot but in general terms guys who go to clubs learn respect mainly because if they don't a very large bouncer will explain the situation to them. I also find that as guys get older they become more respectful. Of course this is in the clubs and I have no idea what they are like outside the clubs but certainly around the location of clubs with cctv and bouncers you can expect a downturn in bad behaviour.

Obviously the issue with men's sexuality is something where pinning the blame on SEVs makes it easy when in fact the clubs don't cause the attitudes that some blame them for. Reality is that sexual repression especially by religion is much more likely to cause backlashes than clubs and in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women. The biggest issue will be the tribal effect of large groups but I am betting that women get far more issues around night clubs than they ever would outside SEVs.

Finally why don't you go talk to a few working dancers and see what they think about you interference of them earning a living.
"in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women"
What? So seeing women in lap dancing clubs helps men become more respectful. Now I have heard everything....

Interference on earning a living? Would you like your wife/girlfriend or daughter to work in such a profession? Unfortunately there will always be women who are willing to do this job, because at the end of the day it is easy money, and there will always be men who are willing to pay for it.

If we continue to objectify women, we will lose our ability to recognise real true beauty when we see it.
[quote][p][bold]TonyN1965[/bold] wrote: Firstly I do think my point earlier about using the bodies of other women to play gender politics is pretty well proven going by the comments so far by those against the clubs. However lets pick up on the issue of men being respectful around women and how clubs help socialise guys into treating women with respect. I have seen thousands of guys in clubs over the years and in general they are better behaved and more polite because of it. Yes you will get the occasional idiot but in general terms guys who go to clubs learn respect mainly because if they don't a very large bouncer will explain the situation to them. I also find that as guys get older they become more respectful. Of course this is in the clubs and I have no idea what they are like outside the clubs but certainly around the location of clubs with cctv and bouncers you can expect a downturn in bad behaviour. Obviously the issue with men's sexuality is something where pinning the blame on SEVs makes it easy when in fact the clubs don't cause the attitudes that some blame them for. Reality is that sexual repression especially by religion is much more likely to cause backlashes than clubs and in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women. The biggest issue will be the tribal effect of large groups but I am betting that women get far more issues around night clubs than they ever would outside SEVs. Finally why don't you go talk to a few working dancers and see what they think about you interference of them earning a living.[/p][/quote]"in fact clubs help guys to become more respectful towards women" What? So seeing women in lap dancing clubs helps men become more respectful. Now I have heard everything.... Interference on earning a living? Would you like your wife/girlfriend or daughter to work in such a profession? Unfortunately there will always be women who are willing to do this job, because at the end of the day it is easy money, and there will always be men who are willing to pay for it. If we continue to objectify women, we will lose our ability to recognise real true beauty when we see it. Foxwhite
  • Score: 1

12:37pm Fri 25 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

So you having not been inside clubs and not seen the changes over the months of guys who go automatically disbelieve something because it doesn't met your expectations. And yet I have seen this with my own eyes, okay my evidence in anecdotal but I have more proof than your I can't believe it because it doesn't fit my views approach.

So here is something that will not fit your understanding of the situation, why has rape fallen in Newquay and Camden with the introduction of clubs? And in Wandsworth they lost a venue and rape increased. You can get the figures from the police and the population for the council areas are available online so you can check these yourself.

Next lets look at the fact you have tried to conflate striptease with incest. Really? I would have no problem with anyone dancing, obviously I think my 87 year old mother will struggle with the pole. As to my daughter I always said whatever she wanted to do with her life I would back her 100%, I actually meant that rather than those who stick caveats all over everything.

Finally this expectation that all dancers are barbie dolls. Maybe at stringfellows but your average club will have a wide range of body types and ages. That fear of objectification is in your head. I would suggest you go read the blog plastic doll head which is written by an ex dancer who studies sexuality it might enlighten you. I prefer short and skinny and a few muscles where as others prefer a full figured woman. Clubs have different guidelines and each one is different. I remember going to an audition with a dancer which she failed and yet the next club gave her work so I would suggest on that a visit and chat to the dancers may help you.
So you having not been inside clubs and not seen the changes over the months of guys who go automatically disbelieve something because it doesn't met your expectations. And yet I have seen this with my own eyes, okay my evidence in anecdotal but I have more proof than your I can't believe it because it doesn't fit my views approach. So here is something that will not fit your understanding of the situation, why has rape fallen in Newquay and Camden with the introduction of clubs? And in Wandsworth they lost a venue and rape increased. You can get the figures from the police and the population for the council areas are available online so you can check these yourself. Next lets look at the fact you have tried to conflate striptease with incest. Really? I would have no problem with anyone dancing, obviously I think my 87 year old mother will struggle with the pole. As to my daughter I always said whatever she wanted to do with her life I would back her 100%, I actually meant that rather than those who stick caveats all over everything. Finally this expectation that all dancers are barbie dolls. Maybe at stringfellows but your average club will have a wide range of body types and ages. That fear of objectification is in your head. I would suggest you go read the blog plastic doll head which is written by an ex dancer who studies sexuality it might enlighten you. I prefer short and skinny and a few muscles where as others prefer a full figured woman. Clubs have different guidelines and each one is different. I remember going to an audition with a dancer which she failed and yet the next club gave her work so I would suggest on that a visit and chat to the dancers may help you. TonyN1965
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Foxwhite says...

I didn't mention your Mother. It is good to back you daughter 100% in life, but I know for one that my Dad would not back me in such a profession. Without doubt I would always have his love, but not respect in doing such a job.
It isn't just these places then undermine women. It's the media and **** industry too. It's the Daily Mail who pick on any celebrity who dares to go on holiday and be in swimwear, when they don't have the perfect body.
It's the fact that even young girls feel the need to walk around with the tiniest of shorts on. Okay it is warm, but walking around with your bum actually showing - what do we expect men to think. We as women have had to fight to be treated as equals to men, and still fight to this day. Come on women show yourselves some respect, be confident, and be yourself.
I didn't mention your Mother. It is good to back you daughter 100% in life, but I know for one that my Dad would not back me in such a profession. Without doubt I would always have his love, but not respect in doing such a job. It isn't just these places then undermine women. It's the media and **** industry too. It's the Daily Mail who pick on any celebrity who dares to go on holiday and be in swimwear, when they don't have the perfect body. It's the fact that even young girls feel the need to walk around with the tiniest of shorts on. Okay it is warm, but walking around with your bum actually showing - what do we expect men to think. We as women have had to fight to be treated as equals to men, and still fight to this day. Come on women show yourselves some respect, be confident, and be yourself. Foxwhite
  • Score: 1

1:46pm Fri 25 Jul 14

sonorbloke says...

BethFoxhunter96 wrote:
It is such a shame that the licensing committee is unable to decide on the balance of feminism and progress and ban these awful places. They objectify women, teaching boys and men that girls are nothing more than boobs and exist only for their titillation. There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York.
FAO Beth; "There is a direct link link....etc"

Is there now? Do you happen to have a link to a sensible piece of research that supports this view?

Ah you don't. Is that because there isn't any evidence that does show that perchance?

I've never been to one of these these clubs nor would I wish to, but your case isn't helped by creating links that don't exist.
[quote][p][bold]BethFoxhunter96[/bold] wrote: It is such a shame that the licensing committee is unable to decide on the balance of feminism and progress and ban these awful places. They objectify women, teaching boys and men that girls are nothing more than boobs and exist only for their titillation. There is a direct link between these places and violence against women, rape, and less dramatic misogynistic culture at large. A failure for the council, a failure for York.[/p][/quote]FAO Beth; "There is a direct link link....etc" Is there now? Do you happen to have a link to a sensible piece of research that supports this view? Ah you don't. Is that because there isn't any evidence that does show that perchance? I've never been to one of these these clubs nor would I wish to, but your case isn't helped by creating links that don't exist. sonorbloke
  • Score: 0

1:57pm Fri 25 Jul 14

stu3466 says...

knickers ,knackers, knockers
knickers ,knackers, knockers stu3466
  • Score: 1

6:17pm Fri 25 Jul 14

TonyN1965 says...

Ahhh sorry so societies ills are caused by all sorts but you will choose to try and close what is still a legal business offering flexible and reasonably well paid work to women when the alternative if you want to work evenings is bar work where if you are lucky you get minimum wage.

So you think that you should police women's bodies? That was one of the key things second wave feminism fought for and strange that now feminism is busy trying to destroy feminism's hard work.

I will say that I love my daughter no matter what and will standard by her choices as an adult with free will. To deny your own child their rights as an adult would only Alienate her. I feel sorry for any parent that loves with caveats,
Ahhh sorry so societies ills are caused by all sorts but you will choose to try and close what is still a legal business offering flexible and reasonably well paid work to women when the alternative if you want to work evenings is bar work where if you are lucky you get minimum wage. So you think that you should police women's bodies? That was one of the key things second wave feminism fought for and strange that now feminism is busy trying to destroy feminism's hard work. I will say that I love my daughter no matter what and will standard by her choices as an adult with free will. To deny your own child their rights as an adult would only Alienate her. I feel sorry for any parent that loves with caveats, TonyN1965
  • Score: 0

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