School closures for York - Strike action to affect thousands - latest list

York Press: School closures for York - Strike action to affect thousands - latest list School closures for York - Strike action to affect thousands - latest list

THOUSANDS of children across York, North and East Yorkshire are set to be off school on Thursday as teachers take part in strike action.

Of the 64 state schools in York, 19 have so far confirmed some or all classes will be affected, and 19 have still to announce, with 26 confirmed as fully open.

Teaching and other school staff will join those at hospitals, councils and fire stations across York, North and East Yorkshire for a day of national action on Thursday.

It could be the largest one-day strike over pay by public sector workers since 2010 and includes members of the NUT, GMB, Unison and Unite as well as the Fire Brigades Union.

A public sector pay freeze was introduced in 2010, and in 2012 the Government brought in a pay cap of one per cent, which is still in place.

As well as school closures some passport services and local government work could be restricted on the day.

There are more than 23,000 pupils in York schools including academy schools and those run in partnership arrangements with outside bodies such as the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

If the strike goes ahead, five York primary schools will be completely closed:

Four of the city's secondary schools are expecting to be open as usual but Archbishop Holgate's CE Academy, Joseph Rowntree School, Applefields Special School and Millthorpe School have said they will only be partially open and the education authority has yet to receive information from Canon Lee and York High. Applefields Special School will also be partially closed.

Ten primary schools are also expecting to be partially closed, and are telling parents their children could well be affected.

The ten partially-closed primary schools at this stage are:

in addition Poppleton Ousebank will be closed for training as planned.

If the strike goes ahead, in North Yorkshire Easingwold School will shut to all pupils as will East Whitby School Applegarth Primary School, Northallerton and Sutton-in-Craven Primary with Le Cateau School at Catterick Garrison, Harrogate, Hookstone Chase School and Upper Wharfedale only part open.

North Yorkshire County Council's director of children and young people, Pete Dwyer, said: “No school in North Yorkshire will take the decision lightly to close. "We have good working relationships with all our professional associations within North Yorkshire and every effort will be made to enable schools to remain open. We will also encourage any school adversely affected to communicate as soon as possible with parents and pupils.”

Those on strike in York and North Yorkshire are expecting to meet at Clifford's Tower in York at 12pm on the day before a rally in St Sampson's Square at 1pm.

In the East Riding Council area, Pocklington Infant, Market Weighton, Woldgate College, Beverley Grammar and Beverley High as well as Driffield School and Driffield Juniors will all part close. Beverley Manor Nursery will be fully closed.

An East Riding of Yorkshire Council Spokesperson said: "The council will, as far as is reasonably practicable, seek to ensure that disruption is kept to a minimum and that services for vulnerable children and adults will be maintained."

Kersten England, chief executive of City of York Council, said: “Whilst we are expecting a certain amount of disruption, our priority is to minimise this and ensure all life and limb services remain open.

"We are putting contingency measures in place to ensure that this happens."

Full list of school closures>>

Comments (37)

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6:06pm Mon 7 Jul 14

anistasia says...

They can strike and it doesn't matter about the child's education. but take a child out of school to take them on holiday and get fined.wrong.and the disputation it causes working parents now having to find child care.
They can strike and it doesn't matter about the child's education. but take a child out of school to take them on holiday and get fined.wrong.and the disputation it causes working parents now having to find child care. anistasia
  • Score: 51

6:13pm Mon 7 Jul 14

bolero says...

If parents keep a child off school for an unaccepted reason they can be fined £60. So in this case will parents be awarded £60 because the child was unable to attend school through no fault of their own? Alternatively, perhaps the £60 could be held in credit to be offset against a future absence.
If parents keep a child off school for an unaccepted reason they can be fined £60. So in this case will parents be awarded £60 because the child was unable to attend school through no fault of their own? Alternatively, perhaps the £60 could be held in credit to be offset against a future absence. bolero
  • Score: 38

6:26pm Mon 7 Jul 14

Looknorth says...

How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support! Looknorth
  • Score: 2

6:36pm Mon 7 Jul 14

Looknorth says...

How dare teachers put themselves in the same league as the fire service or doctors and nurses? Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they may get more support from the public!! Disgusting
How dare teachers put themselves in the same league as the fire service or doctors and nurses? Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they may get more support from the public!! Disgusting Looknorth
  • Score: -22

6:49pm Mon 7 Jul 14

Spider1 says...

It is not the teachers who say parent s should be fined £60 for taking their child out of school - in fact many would say that it is very worthwhile and if they had the opportunity they would do so with their own children.
It is not the teachers who say parent s should be fined £60 for taking their child out of school - in fact many would say that it is very worthwhile and if they had the opportunity they would do so with their own children. Spider1
  • Score: 47

7:05pm Mon 7 Jul 14

York2000 says...

The Press should just let the York Conservatives write the articles and be done with it.
The Press should just let the York Conservatives write the articles and be done with it. York2000
  • Score: -6

9:24pm Mon 7 Jul 14

pault42 says...

Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.
Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions. pault42
  • Score: 23

10:08pm Mon 7 Jul 14

Spider1 says...

The 5 training days have to be taken within term time.
I agree that the rate of pay is decent but that is not what the strike action is about.
The 5 training days have to be taken within term time. I agree that the rate of pay is decent but that is not what the strike action is about. Spider1
  • Score: 3

11:03pm Mon 7 Jul 14

Jack Ham says...

How odd that City of York Council give over £300,000 of our money every year to Unison so that they can run a strike that will disrupt the schools that City of York a Council also pay for.

Madness? You might think so but when pushed both the Labour leadership and CYC senior officers seem to think its a good use of our money that they are not willing to review.

All this whilst blaming the government for 'cuts', reducing services to the vulnerable, skipping road repairs, removing rubbish bins and not even giving us proper supplies of grit in winter.

Shameful back scratching at our expense.
How odd that City of York Council give over £300,000 of our money every year to Unison so that they can run a strike that will disrupt the schools that City of York a Council also pay for. Madness? You might think so but when pushed both the Labour leadership and CYC senior officers seem to think its a good use of our money that they are not willing to review. All this whilst blaming the government for 'cuts', reducing services to the vulnerable, skipping road repairs, removing rubbish bins and not even giving us proper supplies of grit in winter. Shameful back scratching at our expense. Jack Ham
  • Score: 28

12:36am Tue 8 Jul 14

andyjon12 says...

Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. I know of two who in their fifties have recently managed to retire on overly generous pensions. They were privileged to gain their university degrees thanks to PAYE tax payers, including many low paid manual workers. These workers never had a chance of succeeding academically due to our disgraceful and discriminatory two-tier education system. They have been and are still being let down by our political elite and their minions. Does anybody care about these people? Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began. This can not be right.
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. I know of two who in their fifties have recently managed to retire on overly generous pensions. They were privileged to gain their university degrees thanks to PAYE tax payers, including many low paid manual workers. These workers never had a chance of succeeding academically due to our disgraceful and discriminatory two-tier education system. They have been and are still being let down by our political elite and their minions. Does anybody care about these people? Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began. This can not be right. andyjon12
  • Score: 9

9:00am Tue 8 Jul 14

spragger says...

The communist infiltrated NUT seems to be full of hypocrites.
They say the children come first but regularly withdraw the service, impacting the future life chances of these children
Cut thro' all the rubbish & this is a strike based on greed & politics.
As taxpayers we have no choice but to fund these strikebound people. Give the taxpayer a choice whether they wish to fund the largesse of these people

Could they not have struck in their 6 weeks holiday to make a point?
The communist infiltrated NUT seems to be full of hypocrites. They say the children come first but regularly withdraw the service, impacting the future life chances of these children Cut thro' all the rubbish & this is a strike based on greed & politics. As taxpayers we have no choice but to fund these strikebound people. Give the taxpayer a choice whether they wish to fund the largesse of these people Could they not have struck in their 6 weeks holiday to make a point? spragger
  • Score: 3

10:16am Tue 8 Jul 14

Stevie D says...

York Council has a list of closures on its website that is being continually updated as new information comes in from schools, at www.york.gov.uk/scho
olclosures
York Council has a list of closures on its website that is being continually updated as new information comes in from schools, at [bold]www.york.gov.uk/scho olclosures[/bold] Stevie D
  • Score: 3

12:38pm Tue 8 Jul 14

Stevie D says...

Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!

Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork.

Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers.

pault42 wrote:
Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?

They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump.

Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that.

andyjon12 wrote:
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions.
...
Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.

Teachers' pay is linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them.

As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been struck off the register, but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end.

The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.
[quote][p][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/p][/quote][quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/quote] Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork. Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers. [quote][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?[/quote] They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump. Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that. [quote][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. ... Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.[/quote] Teachers' pay [bold]is[/bold] linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them. As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been [italic]struck off the register[/italic], but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end. The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality. Stevie D
  • Score: 19

1:21pm Tue 8 Jul 14

piaggio1 says...

Errmm. What the hell has the daily mail got to do with it ??????.
Remember..dont beleive every thing that is in a paper....
Errmm. What the hell has the daily mail got to do with it ??????. Remember..dont beleive every thing that is in a paper.... piaggio1
  • Score: -2

1:49pm Tue 8 Jul 14

lizzyhall123 says...

I have no sympathy for the teachers cause. At my own childrens secondary school (one which is on strike this week), the teachers seem to have been easing themselves into holiday mode for weeks now. My daughter has watched endless films while teachers sit back and do nothing, has a performing arts day where the teachers have little responsibility, trips to Flamingo land etc etc. Teaching in several subjects has been poor to awful throughout the year yet those teachers are still there.
You want to take a child off school for a day for a valid reason and all hell breaks loose but it is acceptable to take the day off themselves! get real and get in the real world.
I have no sympathy for the teachers cause. At my own childrens secondary school (one which is on strike this week), the teachers seem to have been easing themselves into holiday mode for weeks now. My daughter has watched endless films while teachers sit back and do nothing, has a performing arts day where the teachers have little responsibility, trips to Flamingo land etc etc. Teaching in several subjects has been poor to awful throughout the year yet those teachers are still there. You want to take a child off school for a day for a valid reason and all hell breaks loose but it is acceptable to take the day off themselves! get real and get in the real world. lizzyhall123
  • Score: 11

2:52pm Tue 8 Jul 14

YSTClinguist says...

lizzyhall123 wrote:
I have no sympathy for the teachers cause. At my own childrens secondary school (one which is on strike this week), the teachers seem to have been easing themselves into holiday mode for weeks now. My daughter has watched endless films while teachers sit back and do nothing, has a performing arts day where the teachers have little responsibility, trips to Flamingo land etc etc. Teaching in several subjects has been poor to awful throughout the year yet those teachers are still there.
You want to take a child off school for a day for a valid reason and all hell breaks loose but it is acceptable to take the day off themselves! get real and get in the real world.
I didn't realise you were the one who had control of designing the curriculum!

"Little responsibility" on a school trip out? I gather you don't know what is involved in arranging and carrying out such a trip with your little 'darlings'.

After all the years of political meddling with your childrens education you have the gall to assault the educators who are trying to make your childrens future rosy.....???

If I was a teacher in todays schools I'd be looking at emigrating or becoming an expat abroad where the conditions could be better. There are many schools I know in certain countries that can't attract enough certified teachers and might be willing to treat their staff a lot better than the government and parents here are doing.
[quote][p][bold]lizzyhall123[/bold] wrote: I have no sympathy for the teachers cause. At my own childrens secondary school (one which is on strike this week), the teachers seem to have been easing themselves into holiday mode for weeks now. My daughter has watched endless films while teachers sit back and do nothing, has a performing arts day where the teachers have little responsibility, trips to Flamingo land etc etc. Teaching in several subjects has been poor to awful throughout the year yet those teachers are still there. You want to take a child off school for a day for a valid reason and all hell breaks loose but it is acceptable to take the day off themselves! get real and get in the real world.[/p][/quote]I didn't realise you were the one who had control of designing the curriculum! "Little responsibility" on a school trip out? I gather you don't know what is involved in arranging and carrying out such a trip with your little 'darlings'. After all the years of political meddling with your childrens education you have the gall to assault the educators who are trying to make your childrens future rosy.....??? If I was a teacher in todays schools I'd be looking at emigrating or becoming an expat abroad where the conditions could be better. There are many schools I know in certain countries that can't attract enough certified teachers and might be willing to treat their staff a lot better than the government and parents here are doing. YSTClinguist
  • Score: -6

5:03pm Tue 8 Jul 14

oldgoat says...

pault42 wrote:
Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.
"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him"

Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown.
[quote][p][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.[/p][/quote]"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him" Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown. oldgoat
  • Score: 1

5:50pm Tue 8 Jul 14

bolero says...

Stevie D wrote:
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!

Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork.

Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers.

pault42 wrote:
Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?

They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump.

Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that.

andyjon12 wrote:
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions.
...
Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.

Teachers' pay is linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them.

As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been struck off the register, but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end.

The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.
Pass the tissues, PLEASE.
[quote][p][bold]Stevie D[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/p][/quote][quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/quote] Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork. Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers. [quote][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?[/quote] They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump. Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that. [quote][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. ... Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.[/quote] Teachers' pay [bold]is[/bold] linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them. As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been [italic]struck off the register[/italic], but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end. The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.[/p][/quote]Pass the tissues, PLEASE. bolero
  • Score: -1

5:51pm Tue 8 Jul 14

Garrowby Turnoff says...

When I was teaching back in the 70s there were too many different teaching unions to allow for a sustained attack on the government to adjust pay, pension and working conditions. I watched in dismay as other unions representing professional bodies achieved a fair amount of success on behalf of their members. But teachers never did. In July 1973 I was paid a salary of £67 for a months work at Burnholme Sec School and duly handed in my notice. I couldn't afford to get married on such a salary and vowed to return to teaching when pay matched the hours and conditions of work.

Forty one years have passed and I never saw any incentive in the whole of that time to return to the chalk-face. And, now retired with a pittance of a self-employed pension, I can see little chance for the teacher to improve his lot and achieve salary satisfaction during his working life rather than income satisfaction when you're at retirement age. The multiple teaching unions still exist and dilute effectiveness, and public sympathy has vaporized in the recession.
When I was teaching back in the 70s there were too many different teaching unions to allow for a sustained attack on the government to adjust pay, pension and working conditions. I watched in dismay as other unions representing professional bodies achieved a fair amount of success on behalf of their members. But teachers never did. In July 1973 I was paid a salary of £67 for a months work at Burnholme Sec School and duly handed in my notice. I couldn't afford to get married on such a salary and vowed to return to teaching when pay matched the hours and conditions of work. Forty one years have passed and I never saw any incentive in the whole of that time to return to the chalk-face. And, now retired with a pittance of a self-employed pension, I can see little chance for the teacher to improve his lot and achieve salary satisfaction during his working life rather than income satisfaction when you're at retirement age. The multiple teaching unions still exist and dilute effectiveness, and public sympathy has vaporized in the recession. Garrowby Turnoff
  • Score: 9

6:20pm Tue 8 Jul 14

yorkshirelad says...

Well, I support the teachers who are appallingly treated by the government. Ignore the unthinking unsupportive comments on Press forums. They get showered with initiative after initiative, inspected to the n'th degree, soak up abuse from a minority of parents, get hounded by the right-wing press (and posters on local newspaper forums) and actually don't get paid that well considering the job they do.

I too think parents/children are treated very badly about term-time holidays... assuming we can all get school holidays off work is not a reality for many of us so we simply miss out on family holidays now. But I'm not daft enough to think this idea was the teachers' idea...my impression is that, although they have to give out the party line, they would support a reasonable small amount of term time holiday with the head's consent and the usual caveats. But the teachers have to follow central diktat and jump through all the hoops set for them.

So, teachers...this family supports you (but, PS, please do all you can to return to a less extreme policy on term-time holidays!).
Well, I support the teachers who are appallingly treated by the government. Ignore the unthinking unsupportive comments on Press forums. They get showered with initiative after initiative, inspected to the n'th degree, soak up abuse from a minority of parents, get hounded by the right-wing press (and posters on local newspaper forums) and actually don't get paid that well considering the job they do. I too think parents/children are treated very badly about term-time holidays... assuming we can all get school holidays off work is not a reality for many of us so we simply miss out on family holidays now. But I'm not daft enough to think this idea was the teachers' idea...my impression is that, although they have to give out the party line, they would support a reasonable small amount of term time holiday with the head's consent and the usual caveats. But the teachers have to follow central diktat and jump through all the hoops set for them. So, teachers...this family supports you (but, PS, please do all you can to return to a less extreme policy on term-time holidays!). yorkshirelad
  • Score: 10

6:38pm Tue 8 Jul 14

Looknorth says...

Stevie D wrote:
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!

Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork.

Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers.

pault42 wrote:
Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?

They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump.

Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that.

andyjon12 wrote:
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions.
...
Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.

Teachers' pay is linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them.

As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been struck off the register, but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end.

The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.
I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided). Try to performance manage a poorly performing teacher and you spent the next year of your life fighting a union 'official' who themselves know the teacher isn't up to the job. Naturally not all teachers are like this but I do think it's about time they realised we are all in the same boat and parents do not want their children to think that if you don't get your own way just strike, there are better ways to do this. Also just as an aside nowhere in my post did I say teachers are 'always' on strike.
[quote][p][bold]Stevie D[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/p][/quote][quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/quote] Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork. Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers. [quote][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?[/quote] They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump. Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that. [quote][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. ... Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.[/quote] Teachers' pay [bold]is[/bold] linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them. As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been [italic]struck off the register[/italic], but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end. The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.[/p][/quote]I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided). Try to performance manage a poorly performing teacher and you spent the next year of your life fighting a union 'official' who themselves know the teacher isn't up to the job. Naturally not all teachers are like this but I do think it's about time they realised we are all in the same boat and parents do not want their children to think that if you don't get your own way just strike, there are better ways to do this. Also just as an aside nowhere in my post did I say teachers are 'always' on strike. Looknorth
  • Score: -2

6:51pm Tue 8 Jul 14

JHardacre says...

I don't ever recall reading that it was illegal for teachers and other school staff to strike. Therefore, their actions are legal.

So, stop your winging, people, and get a life.
I don't ever recall reading that it was illegal for teachers and other school staff to strike. Therefore, their actions are legal. So, stop your winging, people, and get a life. JHardacre
  • Score: -1

7:33pm Tue 8 Jul 14

A.P.Feeders says...

Was talking to a teacher down my street he said with a smile any strike or teacher training days= golf days
Was talking to a teacher down my street he said with a smile any strike or teacher training days= golf days A.P.Feeders
  • Score: 11

8:00pm Tue 8 Jul 14

rat scabies says...

A.P.Feeders wrote:
Was talking to a teacher down my street he said with a smile any strike or teacher training days= golf days
Just an extra days holiday to my daughter in law (teacher), she's going on a shopping trip to the Trinity centre in Leeds!
[quote][p][bold]A.P.Feeders[/bold] wrote: Was talking to a teacher down my street he said with a smile any strike or teacher training days= golf days[/p][/quote]Just an extra days holiday to my daughter in law (teacher), she's going on a shopping trip to the Trinity centre in Leeds! rat scabies
  • Score: 7

8:24pm Tue 8 Jul 14

againstthecuts says...

Jack Ham wrote:
How odd that City of York Council give over £300,000 of our money every year to Unison so that they can run a strike that will disrupt the schools that City of York a Council also pay for.

Madness? You might think so but when pushed both the Labour leadership and CYC senior officers seem to think its a good use of our money that they are not willing to review.

All this whilst blaming the government for 'cuts', reducing services to the vulnerable, skipping road repairs, removing rubbish bins and not even giving us proper supplies of grit in winter.

Shameful back scratching at our expense.
Thing what's a disgrace is how much david prentis head of unison earns. Whilst the local unison rep deals with all the workplace problems. Have the unison members actually wondered where their subs go?
[quote][p][bold]Jack Ham[/bold] wrote: How odd that City of York Council give over £300,000 of our money every year to Unison so that they can run a strike that will disrupt the schools that City of York a Council also pay for. Madness? You might think so but when pushed both the Labour leadership and CYC senior officers seem to think its a good use of our money that they are not willing to review. All this whilst blaming the government for 'cuts', reducing services to the vulnerable, skipping road repairs, removing rubbish bins and not even giving us proper supplies of grit in winter. Shameful back scratching at our expense.[/p][/quote]Thing what's a disgrace is how much david prentis head of unison earns. Whilst the local unison rep deals with all the workplace problems. Have the unison members actually wondered where their subs go? againstthecuts
  • Score: 4

8:41pm Tue 8 Jul 14

Stevie D says...

Looknorth wrote:
I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided).

In terms of other jobs ... I wasn't comparing teachers with any specific jobs, but with the full range of jobs out there. I fully concede that some jobs are tougher than teaching, but I'm not aware of many.

Take firefighters, for an example. Firefighters can start training as soon as they leave school, and they need good but not exceptional school-level qualifications – and they start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 2 years when fully qualified. Compare that with teachers, who traditionally needed 4 years of university study, and then start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 4 years.

For that, firefighters have a 42 hour working week, but I don't know how much of that is active service, and what they do when they aren't on a call out. Yes, when they are on duty, they have a physically tough job, there's no denying that. But they work shorter hours, with more regulation over those hours, and they earn more than teachers in comparable levels.

And despite what you think, most teachers do work very long hours. But they don't always do those at school. Several hours at home on an evening, and a full day at the weekend, is not at all uncommon. You may have been working in a cr@p school with rubbish teachers who didn't give a stuff, but that isn't the norm.

Why do we want a race to the bottom? Don't say "some jobs are harder than teachers so teachers shouldn't be given any more money/any better conditions". Fight for all workers to be paid a fair wage for the job they do.
[quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided).[/quote] In terms of other jobs ... I wasn't comparing teachers with any specific jobs, but with the full range of jobs out there. I fully concede that some jobs are tougher than teaching, but I'm not aware of many. Take firefighters, for an example. Firefighters can start training as soon as they leave school, and they need good but not exceptional school-level qualifications – and they start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 2 years when fully qualified. Compare that with teachers, who traditionally needed 4 years of university study, and then start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 4 years. For that, firefighters have a 42 hour working week, but I don't know how much of that is active service, and what they do when they aren't on a call out. Yes, when they are on duty, they have a physically tough job, there's no denying that. But they work shorter hours, with more regulation over those hours, and they earn more than teachers in comparable levels. And despite what you think, [italic]most[/italic] teachers do work very long hours. But they don't always do those at school. Several hours at home on an evening, and a full day at the weekend, is not at all uncommon. You may have been working in a cr@p school with rubbish teachers who didn't give a stuff, but that isn't the norm. Why do we want a race to the bottom? Don't say "some jobs are harder than teachers so teachers shouldn't be given any more money/any better conditions". Fight for [italic]all[/italic] workers to be paid a fair wage for the job they do. Stevie D
  • Score: 2

9:03pm Tue 8 Jul 14

Looknorth says...

Stevie D wrote:
Looknorth wrote:
I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided).

In terms of other jobs ... I wasn't comparing teachers with any specific jobs, but with the full range of jobs out there. I fully concede that some jobs are tougher than teaching, but I'm not aware of many.

Take firefighters, for an example. Firefighters can start training as soon as they leave school, and they need good but not exceptional school-level qualifications – and they start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 2 years when fully qualified. Compare that with teachers, who traditionally needed 4 years of university study, and then start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 4 years.

For that, firefighters have a 42 hour working week, but I don't know how much of that is active service, and what they do when they aren't on a call out. Yes, when they are on duty, they have a physically tough job, there's no denying that. But they work shorter hours, with more regulation over those hours, and they earn more than teachers in comparable levels.

And despite what you think, most teachers do work very long hours. But they don't always do those at school. Several hours at home on an evening, and a full day at the weekend, is not at all uncommon. You may have been working in a cr@p school with rubbish teachers who didn't give a stuff, but that isn't the norm.

Why do we want a race to the bottom? Don't say "some jobs are harder than teachers so teachers shouldn't be given any more money/any better conditions". Fight for all workers to be paid a fair wage for the job they do.
I absolutely could not agree more that workers should 'fight' for what is fair but I think there is a right and wrong way to go about it, striking is the wrong way, it's 80s union mentality which has no place in today's society. I still stand by my original statement that teachers are not in the same league as firefighters, doctors and nurses when it comes to fair pay and working hours. Teachers are trained to teach our children, we are all very quick to come down on a teenager who 'walks out' if they don't get their own way, like I said before there is a better way.
[quote][p][bold]Stevie D[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: I'm sorry are you saying teacher's work harder than firemen, doctors and nurses???? I'm guessing you are because I didn't mention any other profession in my post!!! I've worked in a HR department for a school and I can absolutely assure you the teachers I've worked with do NOT spend an average 50 hours a week working , they may spend 50 hours a week b*tching in the staff room but I've certainly never seen one work that many hours and as for training days they were spent catching up on marking, cleaning out cupboards, maybe an hours worth of e-learning and more moaning (oh and lunch is provided).[/quote] In terms of other jobs ... I wasn't comparing teachers with any specific jobs, but with the full range of jobs out there. I fully concede that some jobs are tougher than teaching, but I'm not aware of many. Take firefighters, for an example. Firefighters can start training as soon as they leave school, and they need good but not exceptional school-level qualifications – and they start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 2 years when fully qualified. Compare that with teachers, who traditionally needed 4 years of university study, and then start on £21k, rising to £28k after about 4 years. For that, firefighters have a 42 hour working week, but I don't know how much of that is active service, and what they do when they aren't on a call out. Yes, when they are on duty, they have a physically tough job, there's no denying that. But they work shorter hours, with more regulation over those hours, and they earn more than teachers in comparable levels. And despite what you think, [italic]most[/italic] teachers do work very long hours. But they don't always do those at school. Several hours at home on an evening, and a full day at the weekend, is not at all uncommon. You may have been working in a cr@p school with rubbish teachers who didn't give a stuff, but that isn't the norm. Why do we want a race to the bottom? Don't say "some jobs are harder than teachers so teachers shouldn't be given any more money/any better conditions". Fight for [italic]all[/italic] workers to be paid a fair wage for the job they do.[/p][/quote]I absolutely could not agree more that workers should 'fight' for what is fair but I think there is a right and wrong way to go about it, striking is the wrong way, it's 80s union mentality which has no place in today's society. I still stand by my original statement that teachers are not in the same league as firefighters, doctors and nurses when it comes to fair pay and working hours. Teachers are trained to teach our children, we are all very quick to come down on a teenager who 'walks out' if they don't get their own way, like I said before there is a better way. Looknorth
  • Score: 5

9:19pm Tue 8 Jul 14

pault42 says...

oldgoat wrote:
pault42 wrote:
Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.
"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him"

Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown.
I have walked in those shoes. And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays.
[quote][p][bold]oldgoat[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.[/p][/quote]"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him" Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown.[/p][/quote]I have walked in those shoes. And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays. pault42
  • Score: 2

9:33pm Tue 8 Jul 14

pault42 says...

Full Teacake wrote:
pault42 wrote:
Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.
So are you going to enter the teaching profession and show them how it should be done?
What are you talking about? Where on earth have I stated I could do the job better? I haven't indicated I think teachers do a bad job. I have stated that I don't have sympathy for their cause. I choose to do a different job, as teachers can if they are that dissatisfied with their chosen occupation.

I suggest you may have done better in life if you had read the examination questions more carefully when you took your exams, as you obviously didn't read my post correctly.
[quote][p][bold]Full Teacake[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.[/p][/quote]So are you going to enter the teaching profession and show them how it should be done?[/p][/quote]What are you talking about? Where on earth have I stated I could do the job better? I haven't indicated I think teachers do a bad job. I have stated that I don't have sympathy for their cause. I choose to do a different job, as teachers can if they are that dissatisfied with their chosen occupation. I suggest you may have done better in life if you had read the examination questions more carefully when you took your exams, as you obviously didn't read my post correctly. pault42
  • Score: 2

12:39am Wed 9 Jul 14

andyjon12 says...

The facts of the matter are - just about all public sector workers have traditionally been treated in the workplace with kid gloves. Successive governments have bent over backwards (probably quite literally), to please these people; this has resulted in teachers being overly rewarded for measurable abject failure. For example, fifty percent of UK adults (former pupils), lack basic numeracy and literacy skills - equivalent to a basic level 2 pass. To add insult to injury some head teachers in York are being paid around 50 to 60 thousand pounds per year; if this isn't rewarding failure - then I don't know what is. I'm afraid folks, Michael Gove is absolutely right to come after you and hold you accountable for your actions and substandard results.

And by the way, for the person on here fighting the firefighter's cause - my experience also tells me that they are equally over paid and pampered. I remember visiting a local sports club on a week day morning a while ago , and being surrounded by bullish firemen bragging about their upcoming pensions and lack of "shouts". Funny enough, they were saying this to an off duty policeman, a nurse and a couple of soon to retire teachers. The group could then be heard giggling whilst exchanging very similar boastful tales; shame on these privileged and mollycoddled public sector shirkers. They should spare a thought for the swathes of struggling private sector workers who will never be offered the same pay, pension rights or job security.
The facts of the matter are - just about all public sector workers have traditionally been treated in the workplace with kid gloves. Successive governments have bent over backwards (probably quite literally), to please these people; this has resulted in teachers being overly rewarded for measurable abject failure. For example, fifty percent of UK adults (former pupils), lack basic numeracy and literacy skills - equivalent to a basic level 2 pass. To add insult to injury some head teachers in York are being paid around 50 to 60 thousand pounds per year; if this isn't rewarding failure - then I don't know what is. I'm afraid folks, Michael Gove is absolutely right to come after you and hold you accountable for your actions and substandard results. And by the way, for the person on here fighting the firefighter's cause - my experience also tells me that they are equally over paid and pampered. I remember visiting a local sports club on a week day morning a while ago , and being surrounded by bullish firemen bragging about their upcoming pensions and lack of "shouts". Funny enough, they were saying this to an off duty policeman, a nurse and a couple of soon to retire teachers. The group could then be heard giggling whilst exchanging very similar boastful tales; shame on these privileged and mollycoddled public sector shirkers. They should spare a thought for the swathes of struggling private sector workers who will never be offered the same pay, pension rights or job security. andyjon12
  • Score: 1

1:07am Wed 9 Jul 14

Stevie D says...

pault42 wrote:
And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays.

As I explained earlier, teachers are contracted to work 195 days of directed time, which includes 190 days of teaching and 5 days of training. You seem to be suggesting that teachers should have their contracts changed to 195 days of teaching and 5 days of training – but no doubt you won't be paying them any extra for working an extra 5 days a year. How many other industries do you know where staff would happily accept losing a week's holiday for no extra pay?

The reason that schools shut down for training days is because it's the only sensible way to do it. You can't have teachers doing their training at random points all separately, because (a) it won't be effective if they aren't doing it together, and (b) it would make it much harder to manage the children if teachers were randomly off on training all the time.

And yes, there are plenty of industries that close completely for staff training – I have often seen notices in banks and libraries, for example, to say that they open an hour later on Wednesdays for staff training. That's an hour a week, every week – which is a similar proportion to teachers having five whole days. But having an hour's closure once a week is far more manageable in terms of customer interface for a bank or a library than a school, where it makes more sense to compress that down time into five days a year rather than an hour every week.
[quote][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays.[/quote] As I explained earlier, teachers are contracted to work 195 days of directed time, which includes 190 days of teaching and 5 days of training. You seem to be suggesting that teachers should have their contracts changed to 195 days of teaching and 5 days of training – but no doubt you won't be paying them any extra for working an extra 5 days a year. How many other industries do you know where staff would happily accept losing a week's holiday for no extra pay? The reason that schools shut down for training days is because it's the only sensible way to do it. You can't have teachers doing their training at random points all separately, because (a) it won't be effective if they aren't doing it together, and (b) it would make it much harder to manage the children if teachers were randomly off on training all the time. And yes, there are plenty of industries that close completely for staff training – I have often seen notices in banks and libraries, for example, to say that they open an hour later on Wednesdays for staff training. That's an hour a week, every week – which is a similar proportion to teachers having five whole days. But having an hour's closure once a week is far more manageable in terms of customer interface for a bank or a library than a school, where it makes more sense to compress that down time into five days a year rather than an hour every week. Stevie D
  • Score: 0

7:39am Wed 9 Jul 14

BethFoxhunter96 says...

Why are teachers being talked about? Teachers are not on strike tomorrow. Council support staff are. Teaching assistants, secretaries etc.

Some people need to get a grip. Council staff have every right to strike. It's not about comparing professions or careers. That's Thatcher's divide and conquor mentality. It's about low paid school cleaners, refuse collectors, wardens, care home workers, etc wanting a fair wage. As I understand they've had a 1% paper increase in pay on four years. That's a real terms cut when inflation is factored in. Good luck to them I say. Tax cuts for millionaires and pay cuts for cleaners. "We're all in this together". Just as long as you went to Eton or Westminster, it seems.
Why are teachers being talked about? Teachers are not on strike tomorrow. Council support staff are. Teaching assistants, secretaries etc. Some people need to get a grip. Council staff have every right to strike. It's not about comparing professions or careers. That's Thatcher's divide and conquor mentality. It's about low paid school cleaners, refuse collectors, wardens, care home workers, etc wanting a fair wage. As I understand they've had a 1% paper increase in pay on four years. That's a real terms cut when inflation is factored in. Good luck to them I say. Tax cuts for millionaires and pay cuts for cleaners. "We're all in this together". Just as long as you went to Eton or Westminster, it seems. BethFoxhunter96
  • Score: 4

12:22pm Wed 9 Jul 14

Yorkmackem1 says...

andyjon12 wrote:
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. I know of two who in their fifties have recently managed to retire on overly generous pensions. They were privileged to gain their university degrees thanks to PAYE tax payers, including many low paid manual workers. These workers never had a chance of succeeding academically due to our disgraceful and discriminatory two-tier education system. They have been and are still being let down by our political elite and their minions. Does anybody care about these people? Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began. This can not be right.
Try posting that again when you've actually had some experience of teaching.
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. I know of two who in their fifties have recently managed to retire on overly generous pensions. They were privileged to gain their university degrees thanks to PAYE tax payers, including many low paid manual workers. These workers never had a chance of succeeding academically due to our disgraceful and discriminatory two-tier education system. They have been and are still being let down by our political elite and their minions. Does anybody care about these people? Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began. This can not be right.[/p][/quote]Try posting that again when you've actually had some experience of teaching. Yorkmackem1
  • Score: -1

2:12pm Wed 9 Jul 14

old_selebian says...

NUT and those teachers going on strike are a disgrace
NUT and those teachers going on strike are a disgrace old_selebian
  • Score: 0

6:22pm Wed 9 Jul 14

PlanetTea says...

bolero wrote:
Stevie D wrote:
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!
Looknorth wrote:
How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support!

Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork.

Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers.

pault42 wrote:
Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?

They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump.

Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that.

andyjon12 wrote:
Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions.
...
Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.

Teachers' pay is linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them.

As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been struck off the register, but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end.

The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.
Pass the tissues, PLEASE.
Teachers may work up to 50 hours a week, if that is accurate information, but they also get 45 days holiday a years whilst the average person working full time gets 22 days.

I don't think anybody could say that being a teacher isn't a hard job, it really can be, anyone whose been a pupil in a school will know this even if they haven't experienced what it is like to be a teacher. However this doesn't mean that teachers aren't given excellent benefits, because they are.

The sense of entitlement that teachers on strike seem to have needs to GO, many of us work hard in our jobs and don't get nearly as much free time or excellent pensions, so with all the respect in the world, please quit complaining.
[quote][p][bold]bolero[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stevie D[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/p][/quote][quote][bold]Looknorth[/bold] wrote: How dare teachers compare themselves to the fire service or doctors and nurses. Maybe if they spent less time on strike (or holiday) and more time teaching they would be worth the publics support![/quote] Averaged over the whole year, teachers spend about 50 hours a week working. How does that compare with other jobs? Teachers work a lot harder than most people, and in more demanding conditions than most. No, they aren't in the worst position of all, but anyone who thinks they have it easy really needs to see what teachers have to deal with in the classroom, and do in terms of preparation and paperwork. Until this government started to seriously screw up education, there had been few strikes for a long time. Claiming that teachers are "always" on strike is nonsense, and the recent rash of strikes tells you more about current government policy than it does about teachers. [quote][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed?[/quote] They do. Schools close for training days. The government requires teachers to work 195 days of "directed time", and for schools to open to pupils for 190 days. That means that schools have 5 days a year for training. They can use it more effectively by spreading it out over the year than by taking it in one big week-long lump. Or do you think that teachers should be made to work an extra 5 days a year without any extra pay or compensation, just so they don't muck up your childcare arrangements? If you want teachers who are at the top of their game, you need to allow them some time to keep up to speed with the latest developments, both national changes and new systems within their school. Training days are an important part of that. [quote][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Teachers have had it far too good for far too long. It is about time that they were brought in to the real world where pay is linked to performance and pensions are linked to contributions. ... Also, Michael Gove should find a way of getting rid of those who are not up to the job and therefore not fit for purpose. Only a hand full of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, since records began.[/quote] Teachers' pay [bold]is[/bold] linked to their performance already, to an extent. In order to get pay rises beyond a certain level, they have to demonstrate that they are working to a high standard. While that may just have been a rite of passage in days gone by, most schools do now take that very seriously, and teachers who don't deserve pay rises won't get them. As for the idea that only a handful of teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence, that's just laughable nonsense. Yes, only a handful have been [italic]struck off the register[/italic], but that's a much more serious scenario than being sacked. Teachers are dismissed all the time, both for not being good enough and for disciplinary reasons, but thousands and thousands more resign (sometimes with a little encouragement) before they are pushed, because it's much less traumatic for all concerned to accept the writing on the wall and jump than fighting capability proceedings to the bitter end. The idea that schools are full of incompetent teachers because they are unsackable is a myth that the Daily Mail like to peddle, but it has absolutely no basis in reality.[/p][/quote]Pass the tissues, PLEASE.[/p][/quote]Teachers may work up to 50 hours a week, if that is accurate information, but they also get 45 days holiday a years whilst the average person working full time gets 22 days. I don't think anybody could say that being a teacher isn't a hard job, it really can be, anyone whose been a pupil in a school will know this even if they haven't experienced what it is like to be a teacher. However this doesn't mean that teachers aren't given excellent benefits, because they are. The sense of entitlement that teachers on strike seem to have needs to GO, many of us work hard in our jobs and don't get nearly as much free time or excellent pensions, so with all the respect in the world, please quit complaining. PlanetTea
  • Score: 3

7:05pm Wed 9 Jul 14

Spider1 says...

pault42 wrote:
oldgoat wrote:
pault42 wrote:
Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.
"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him"

Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown.
I have walked in those shoes. And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays.
Teachers are doing doing these days in their holidays - they had five days taken off their annual holidays to be used as training days - a little known fact I believe.
[quote][p][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]oldgoat[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pault42[/bold] wrote: Teachers, sorry but I've no sympathy for your cause. You get a decent rate for a fairly tough job, but, you also get substantial benefits in addition. How many times do we parents have to change our lives to fit in with your 'teacher training days' and strikes? Why on earth don't you have your 'training' when the schools are closed? A lot of you do a good job, but so do many people in other occupations. You have lost the publics support due to your actions.[/p][/quote]"Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him" Teacher training days were a creation of a Tory education minister many years ago, and are fixed in term time for reasons unknown.[/p][/quote]I have walked in those shoes. And your comment about the Teacher Training days is correct, but that doesn't explain why they were never changed by subsequent Labour policy. No other organisation of any size I'm aware of shuts down for a training day. Let me guess though, teachers would strike if it was suggested they had to do these days in their long holidays.[/p][/quote]Teachers are doing doing these days in their holidays - they had five days taken off their annual holidays to be used as training days - a little known fact I believe. Spider1
  • Score: 0

9:57pm Wed 9 Jul 14

spottycow says...

SOME teachers are rubbish but most are good WHY carry the BAD get rid and maybe OUR CHILDREN WILL ONE DAY LEAVE SCHOOL WELL EDUCATED WISH I COULD HAVE A TRAINING DAY OR GO ON STRIKE
SOME teachers are rubbish but most are good WHY carry the BAD get rid and maybe OUR CHILDREN WILL ONE DAY LEAVE SCHOOL WELL EDUCATED WISH I COULD HAVE A TRAINING DAY OR GO ON STRIKE spottycow
  • Score: 0
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