Hybrid electric buses put into service on York's streets

Cllr David Levene and First managing director Ben Gilligan, pictured by one of the new hybrid buses

Cllr David Levene and First managing director Ben Gilligan, pictured by one of the new hybrid buses

Updated in News

YORK's first partially electric buses have been launched as part of the drive to reduce pollution on the city's streets.

Five Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEVs) are being put into service on the Number 4 route, which runs between Acomb and the University of York via the city centre.

Operator First said the state-of-the-art buses are powered by a combination of batteries and conventional diesel.

"The new technology produces 30 per cent lower carbon emissions compared to a conventional diesel bus," said a spokesman. " As well as being kinder to the local environment, the hybrid vehicles are also quieter than conventional buses."

The hybrids have arrived just weeks before six brand new electric buses are launched in June.

Cllr David Levene, Cabinet Member for Transport at City of York Council, said the arrival of the hybrids demonstrated how York's bus fleet could be transformed and the environment improved for the future, adding:"Our aim is to encourage more people to travel by bus and increase passenger numbers by 18 per cent by 2015."

Comments (44)

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1:37pm Thu 1 May 14

Digeorge says...

Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial?

Another total failure in the making!
Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making! Digeorge
  • Score: -7

3:15pm Thu 1 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

I understand they don't burn diesel whilst waiting for passengers to get their wallets and purses out instead of having their bus fare ready.

30 % reduction in emissions with hybrid vehicle.

Now where did I read that no congestion and optimum 20 to 30 mph is a 50% reduction in emissions?
I understand they don't burn diesel whilst waiting for passengers to get their wallets and purses out instead of having their bus fare ready. 30 % reduction in emissions with hybrid vehicle. Now where did I read that no congestion and optimum 20 to 30 mph is a 50% reduction in emissions? KevinWard59
  • Score: -9

5:10pm Thu 1 May 14

bloodaxe says...

Better late than never. Nice to see green buses and nicer still to see new buses rather than domeone else's cast-offs.
Better late than never. Nice to see green buses and nicer still to see new buses rather than domeone else's cast-offs. bloodaxe
  • Score: 22

5:12pm Thu 1 May 14

bloodaxe says...

Digeorge wrote:
Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial?

Another total failure in the making!
They've had them in some cities for years. Get up to date.
[quote][p][bold]Digeorge[/bold] wrote: Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making![/p][/quote]They've had them in some cities for years. Get up to date. bloodaxe
  • Score: 10

5:58pm Thu 1 May 14

AnotherPointofView says...

Can we have one for the fume belching tour bus driven by a certain cyclist please?
Can we have one for the fume belching tour bus driven by a certain cyclist please? AnotherPointofView
  • Score: -8

6:58pm Thu 1 May 14

jay, york says...

Digeorge wrote:
Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making!
Absolutely agree Digeorge - the fact that it is a hybrid electric bus will not encourage people to travel by bus more. They need to look at better services, better timetables and better fares - those are the only things that will encourage people to travel by bus more. - and no doubt fares will have to increase to pay for these????
[quote][p][bold]Digeorge[/bold] wrote: Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making![/p][/quote]Absolutely agree Digeorge - the fact that it is a hybrid electric bus will not encourage people to travel by bus more. They need to look at better services, better timetables and better fares - those are the only things that will encourage people to travel by bus more. - and no doubt fares will have to increase to pay for these???? jay, york
  • Score: 8

10:16pm Thu 1 May 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: -54

10:20pm Thu 1 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of Traffic Issues https://t.co/0L5837M
2ns

York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys
is/Solutions.
dropbox.com/sh/hiifj
wgqb1p…

"Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:-

York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So
lutions.
dropbox.com/sh/hiifj
wgqb1p…
Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of Traffic Issues https://t.co/0L5837M 2ns York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys is/Solutions. dropbox.com/sh/hiifj wgqb1p… "Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:- York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So lutions. dropbox.com/sh/hiifj wgqb1p… KevinWard59
  • Score: -86

11:40pm Thu 1 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P

Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of "Traffic Issues" https://t.co/0L5837M
2ns

York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys
is/Solutions.
https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P…

"Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:-


York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So
lutions.
https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P
https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of "Traffic Issues" https://t.co/0L5837M 2ns York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys is/Solutions. https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P… "Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:- York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So lutions. https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P KevinWard59
  • Score: -35

12:04am Fri 2 May 14

jake777 says...

Digeorge wrote:
Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial?

Another total failure in the making!
What do you know ,Are you an expert??.
[quote][p][bold]Digeorge[/bold] wrote: Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making![/p][/quote]What do you know ,Are you an expert??. jake777
  • Score: 34

12:05am Fri 2 May 14

greenmonkey says...

Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time. greenmonkey
  • Score: 29

12:12am Fri 2 May 14

greenmonkey says...

Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government.
Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government. greenmonkey
  • Score: 37

12:13am Fri 2 May 14

jake777 says...

jay, york wrote:
Digeorge wrote:
Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making!
Absolutely agree Digeorge - the fact that it is a hybrid electric bus will not encourage people to travel by bus more. They need to look at better services, better timetables and better fares - those are the only things that will encourage people to travel by bus more. - and no doubt fares will have to increase to pay for these????
Another expert that knows nothing, as for reliable services that will only work when cars are removed from the city and before you all jump on the band wagon stop and think, you can only go forward if it is clear. if you sit in traffic then you are bound to be late.
[quote][p][bold]jay, york[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Digeorge[/bold] wrote: Another 'state of the art' bus. Remember the purple bendy No 4 bus they took off the road which was a trial? Another total failure in the making![/p][/quote]Absolutely agree Digeorge - the fact that it is a hybrid electric bus will not encourage people to travel by bus more. They need to look at better services, better timetables and better fares - those are the only things that will encourage people to travel by bus more. - and no doubt fares will have to increase to pay for these????[/p][/quote]Another expert that knows nothing, as for reliable services that will only work when cars are removed from the city and before you all jump on the band wagon stop and think, you can only go forward if it is clear. if you sit in traffic then you are bound to be late. jake777
  • Score: 28

12:14am Fri 2 May 14

jake777 says...

AnotherPointofView wrote:
Can we have one for the fume belching tour bus driven by a certain cyclist please?
He does not drive it, He is a guide on it.
[quote][p][bold]AnotherPointofView[/bold] wrote: Can we have one for the fume belching tour bus driven by a certain cyclist please?[/p][/quote]He does not drive it, He is a guide on it. jake777
  • Score: 6

12:18am Fri 2 May 14

jake777 says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time. jake777
  • Score: 9

12:23am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

If YCC now CYC had ever had the guts to suggest a low charge of say 50p per ride on York's only central orbital route linking most of the everyday citizens amenities and ALL the Park & Ride stops, without having to walk across town, (slight drawback - you'd have to sit downstairs and overhear a guide or taped commentary - not so bad for the hard of hearing or intelligent who wish to further their local history knowlege) no-one would be so alienated.

But in imitable fashion the guilty little children daren't hold an adult conversation and York's residents lose out!
If YCC now CYC had ever had the guts to suggest a low charge of say 50p per ride on York's only central orbital route linking most of the everyday citizens amenities and ALL the Park & Ride stops, without having to walk across town, (slight drawback - you'd have to sit downstairs and overhear a guide or taped commentary - not so bad for the hard of hearing or intelligent who wish to further their local history knowlege) no-one would be so alienated. But in imitable fashion the guilty little children daren't hold an adult conversation and York's residents lose out! KevinWard59
  • Score: -3

12:28am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
Bus priority lights don't work.

Unleaded exhaust fumes are carcergenic .

CYC want bigger P & R Sites for all the rickshaws they're planning.
[quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]Bus priority lights don't work. Unleaded exhaust fumes are carcergenic [fact]. CYC want bigger P & R Sites for all the rickshaws they're planning. KevinWard59
  • Score: -3

12:30am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
But do remember cycle shop stock deliveries come on lorries!
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]But do remember cycle shop stock deliveries come on lorries! KevinWard59
  • Score: 2

12:33am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government.
NO2 higher on Fulford Corridor due to BAD Lane markings on Fawcett Street - See Analysis Video.
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government.[/p][/quote]NO2 higher on Fulford Corridor due to BAD Lane markings on Fawcett Street - See Analysis Video. KevinWard59
  • Score: 3

12:35am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
But my 1990 plan and the 1948 plan have no traffic lights and are designed to make traffic flow without stopping.
[quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]But my 1990 plan and the 1948 plan have no traffic lights and are designed to make traffic flow without stopping. KevinWard59
  • Score: 0

2:09am Fri 2 May 14

Magicman! says...

bloodaxe wrote:
Better late than never. Nice to see green buses and nicer still to see new buses rather than domeone else's cast-offs.
Actually, these are Ex-London buses ('LK' reg plates). They've undergone a full refurbishment though which I believe includes brand new seating and internal layout. Also worth noting the actual diesel engines in these are brand new, they replaced older engines which had been unreliable - the new engines required the length of the bus to be extended at the back a little bit.

However, these ARE the newest double decker buses in the First York fleet, having replaced 2001 reg buses which went to Manchester. There is only 1 bus in the First York fleet that is newer, these double deckers are the same age as the Park and Ride bendybuses.

This could very well be the start of a bigger scheme... trial ex-London buses here to see how they run, before purchasing brand new Hybrid buses. There are already photos of these buses going around York on the internet. Next up are 6 electric single deckers (which are currently parked up at Sherburn in Elmet), followed by another 6 of the same type once they're built.
[quote][p][bold]bloodaxe[/bold] wrote: Better late than never. Nice to see green buses and nicer still to see new buses rather than domeone else's cast-offs.[/p][/quote]Actually, these are Ex-London buses ('LK' reg plates). They've undergone a full refurbishment though which I believe includes brand new seating and internal layout. Also worth noting the actual diesel engines in these are brand new, they replaced older engines which had been unreliable - the new engines required the length of the bus to be extended at the back a little bit. However, these ARE the newest double decker buses in the First York fleet, having replaced 2001 reg buses which went to Manchester. There is only 1 bus in the First York fleet that is newer, these double deckers are the same age as the Park and Ride bendybuses. This could very well be the start of a bigger scheme... trial ex-London buses here to see how they run, before purchasing brand new Hybrid buses. There are already photos of these buses going around York on the internet. Next up are 6 electric single deckers (which are currently parked up at Sherburn in Elmet), followed by another 6 of the same type once they're built. Magicman!
  • Score: 4

2:12am Fri 2 May 14

Magicman! says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world. Magicman!
  • Score: -2

2:27am Fri 2 May 14

Magicman! says...

greenmonkey wrote:
Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government.
Indeed. There are 6 electric buses for the Poppleton P&R route, though the roster for the route will only need 5 buses for most of the day, meaning the 6th bus comes out when another needs a boost charge.

The FTR bus was just the single most ridiculous bus-based idea I have ever seen. But did you know this: a few towns and cities had ideas for a tramway route or network during the 2000's, including Leeds; then the transport Minister of the time, Alistair 'eyebrows' Darling, had a secret closed-doors meeting with Firstgroup up in Scotland. A suspiciously short period of time after that meeting, suddenly all funding for the tram prjojects was cancelled - with the first cancellations affecting all the ones planned in areas where Firstgroup had a major bus route that would have been adversely effected by a tram system (including Leeds). Then not long after that, Firstgroup introduced the FTR purple slugs trying to make out they had "the benefits of a tram without being on rails"... the trial location was York, so that if it flopped in the first few months then it hadn't affected "anywhere important" so to speak... after ironing out one or two niggles of the fundamentally-flawed FTR concept, it was rolled out in Leeds - and it was no coincidence that in Leeds it was put on the route that would have previously been in competition directly against a tram route. Now in 2014, Leeds has got plans for a modern Trolleybus network, and First is sticking its head in again and trying to get the trolleybus cancelled in favour of First bringing in another gimmick in the form of Borismasters (which would have half the capaity of a trolleybus, and so would need to operate at double the frequency to equal things out, which would double the number of buses in Lees city centre currently and bring congestion there).

Certain things DO bring higher passenger numbers to a bus service... in order of effectiveness these are:-
- lower fares across the board (not just day tickets and group rates, or singles)
- more frequent service
- more evening buses
- more connections / places served
- better quality buses, in terms of interior comfort
- better vehicle standards, such as electric or hybrid vehicles

... in general everyday use, a lot of passengers don't care if the bus is a hybrid, electric, gas powered, runs on pixie dust, is powered by ****, or is meant to look like a tram - if it shows up on time, the fare is value for money, the bus isn't too old, and the passengers can get a return journey where they want to go at the time they want, then more people use the bus.

In terms of age in York, there are about 20-odd vehicles from 2001 to 2002 ('Y', 'YJ51', 'YG02' registrations) which are showing their age and could do with being replaced now.
[quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Oh and by the way pollution has got worse since 2006 when bus fares in York started to rise more sharply than parking charges and the proportion of diesel cars has steadily increased - they produce less Co2 but more particulates and NO2. The purple buses were a joke - the 'pilot' couldn't assist passengers, the roads all started to collapse under their weight and the fuel consumption was 6 miles to the gallon! York council doesn't control which vehicles are used except it could require more modern vehicles on schools contracts and will have the option to insist on all hybrid vehicles on new park and ride contracts. The new electric buses were paid for by the operators with the difference between 'normal' and electric vehicle cost paid for by the government.[/p][/quote]Indeed. There are 6 electric buses for the Poppleton P&R route, though the roster for the route will only need 5 buses for most of the day, meaning the 6th bus comes out when another needs a boost charge. The FTR bus was just the single most ridiculous bus-based idea I have ever seen. But did you know this: a few towns and cities had ideas for a tramway route or network during the 2000's, including Leeds; then the transport Minister of the time, Alistair 'eyebrows' Darling, had a secret closed-doors meeting with Firstgroup up in Scotland. A suspiciously short period of time after that meeting, suddenly all funding for the tram prjojects was cancelled - with the first cancellations affecting all the ones planned in areas where Firstgroup had a major bus route that would have been adversely effected by a tram system (including Leeds). Then not long after that, Firstgroup introduced the FTR purple slugs trying to make out they had "the benefits of a tram without being on rails"... the trial location was York, so that if it flopped in the first few months then it hadn't affected "anywhere important" so to speak... after ironing out one or two niggles of the fundamentally-flawed FTR concept, it was rolled out in Leeds - and it was no coincidence that in Leeds it was put on the route that would have previously been in competition directly against a tram route. Now in 2014, Leeds has got plans for a modern Trolleybus network, and First is sticking its head in again and trying to get the trolleybus cancelled in favour of First bringing in another gimmick in the form of Borismasters (which would have half the capaity of a trolleybus, and so would need to operate at double the frequency to equal things out, which would double the number of buses in Lees city centre currently and bring congestion there). Certain things DO bring higher passenger numbers to a bus service... in order of effectiveness these are:- - lower fares across the board (not just day tickets and group rates, or singles) - more frequent service - more evening buses - more connections / places served - better quality buses, in terms of interior comfort - better vehicle standards, such as electric or hybrid vehicles ... in general everyday use, a lot of passengers don't care if the bus is a hybrid, electric, gas powered, runs on pixie dust, is powered by ****, or is meant to look like a tram - if it shows up on time, the fare is value for money, the bus isn't too old, and the passengers can get a return journey where they want to go at the time they want, then more people use the bus. In terms of age in York, there are about 20-odd vehicles from 2001 to 2002 ('Y', 'YJ51', 'YG02' registrations) which are showing their age and could do with being replaced now. Magicman!
  • Score: 7

8:18am Fri 2 May 14

sniper 9964 says...

Worst York dis use battety buses on Ser 7 a few years ago. Did not work. As the muppets kept forgetting to plug it in on a night for a charge
Worst York dis use battety buses on Ser 7 a few years ago. Did not work. As the muppets kept forgetting to plug it in on a night for a charge sniper 9964
  • Score: -94

11:25am Fri 2 May 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: -101

11:55am Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
Strange that this is all video evidenced, written and reported in my dropbox.

It seems that a web link won't paste here - perhaps that's why the Minus 84 score - unless people of York LIKE what's going on.

Find the links and get educated if you just clicked the thumbs down because you lacking some knowledge/proof/inte
lligence.
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.[/p][/quote]Strange that this is all video evidenced, written and reported in my dropbox. It seems that a web link won't paste here - perhaps that's why the Minus 84 score - unless people of York LIKE what's going on. Find the links and get educated if you just clicked the thumbs down because you lacking some knowledge/proof/inte lligence. KevinWard59
  • Score: -82

12:01pm Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

KevinWard59 wrote:
Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of Traffic Issues https://t.co/0L5837M

2ns

York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys

is/Solutions.
dropbox.com/sh/hiifj

wgqb1p…

"Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:-

York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So

lutions.
dropbox.com/sh/hiifj

wgqb1p…
Almost every night up to 10 people write letters t the press BEGGING for a SOLUTION to York's "Traffic Nightmare"

Yet when confronted with the answers of a 34 year old problem which has been constantly increased they give A -84 THUMBS DOWN SCORE!!

AMAZING!!!
[quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: Please print (select to fit paper size on printer) & display a copy where interested parties can see it to give their thoughts on the final solution to York’s 34 years of Traffic Issues https://t.co/0L5837M 2ns York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Video /Illustration/Analys is/Solutions. dropbox.com/sh/hiifj wgqb1p… "Supplemental Analysis and Omitted Study information to be appended to Background Document – Evidence (2011) City of York Council which was not taken into account in formulating the City of York Council Local Transport Plan 2011-2031" is located at the following dropbox link:- York Congestion Creating Signs & Problem Illustrating Pictures/Analysis/So lutions. dropbox.com/sh/hiifj wgqb1p…[/p][/quote]Almost every night up to 10 people write letters t the press BEGGING for a SOLUTION to York's "Traffic Nightmare" Yet when confronted with the answers of a 34 year old problem which has been constantly increased they give A -84 THUMBS DOWN SCORE!! AMAZING!!! KevinWard59
  • Score: -91

12:50pm Fri 2 May 14

JasBro says...

Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those.

It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.

Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.
Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those. It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything. JasBro
  • Score: -68

4:20pm Fri 2 May 14

Digeorge says...

No expert and no interest in the subject at all just happen to live on the No 4 bus route and but it isn't rocket science it probably won't work on York's Streets, the history of the Purple Bus was a trial. I wouldn't even realise whether it was an electrical or a diesel bus (apart form the smell) and it would probably break down anyway.

I don't remotely care about the subject personally as long as the bus is on time and the fares are not too high and gets me from A to B efficiently and quickly.
No expert and no interest in the subject at all just happen to live on the No 4 bus route and but it isn't rocket science it probably won't work on York's Streets, the history of the Purple Bus was a trial. I wouldn't even realise whether it was an electrical or a diesel bus (apart form the smell) and it would probably break down anyway. I don't remotely care about the subject personally as long as the bus is on time and the fares are not too high and gets me from A to B efficiently and quickly. Digeorge
  • Score: -66

5:35pm Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

JasBro wrote:
Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those.

It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.

Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.
https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P
[quote][p][bold]JasBro[/bold] wrote: Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those. It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.[/p][/quote]https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P KevinWard59
  • Score: -51

5:38pm Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P
https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P KevinWard59
  • Score: -47

7:18pm Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

KevinWard59 wrote:
JasBro wrote:
Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those.

It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.

Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.
https://t.co/6byvFpV

48P
It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.


I just pated them like you said and removed spaces and emailed it to myself and both work fine. Now people can see what Cllr.David.Merrett doesn't want you to see.
[quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JasBro[/bold] wrote: Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those. It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.[/p][/quote]https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P[/p][/quote]It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. I just pated them like you said and removed spaces and emailed it to myself and both work fine. Now people can see what Cllr.David.Merrett doesn't want you to see. KevinWard59
  • Score: -33

11:45pm Fri 2 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.
[quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time. KevinWard59
  • Score: 7

4:02am Sat 3 May 14

Magicman! says...

KevinWard59 wrote:
jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.
All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity.
[quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.[/p][/quote]All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity. Magicman!
  • Score: 1

4:21am Sat 3 May 14

Magicman! says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this:
"Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus"
- and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes.

If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means.

It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion.

But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?".

York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.[/p][/quote]The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this: "Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus" - and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes. If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means. It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion. But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?". York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal. Magicman!
  • Score: 0

9:47am Sat 3 May 14

phonemad says...

KevinWard59 wrote:
JasBro wrote:
Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those.

It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.

Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.
https://t.co/6byvFpV

48P
That works ok
[quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JasBro[/bold] wrote: Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those. It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.[/p][/quote]https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P[/p][/quote]That works ok phonemad
  • Score: 0

2:28pm Sat 3 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

JasBro wrote:
Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those.

It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces.

Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.
Sad, Thick, Dumb, ill educated and Ignorant - Methinks - and also most likely on drugs
[quote][p][bold]JasBro[/bold] wrote: Some interesting and considered ideas KevinWard59. You've obviously put some time and effort into those. It's a shame that links don't work properly on this site, you have to copy, paste and then remove the spaces. Don't worry about the scores, some sad person has been manipulating the scores in the comments section for a long time, so it doesn't mean anything.[/p][/quote]Sad, Thick, Dumb, ill educated and Ignorant - Methinks - and also most likely on drugs KevinWard59
  • Score: -1

2:43pm Sat 3 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this:
"Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus"
- and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes.

If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means.

It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion.

But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?".

York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.
CYC saved money by NOT buying in the fully automated system and in their inimitable fashion believe thy can do it better manually. (or perhaps it didn't fulfil their aims).

Don't forget that it's a 5 way timed sequence they employ - the fifth sequence being the pedestrian phase.

Yes they even punish the pedestrians and many take the risk, watch the traffic pattern and cross ignoring the pedestrian green light.

On Boroughbridge Road yesterday a little girl of almost three said "Mummy there's no green man" pointing at the post on the opposite side of the road. Her mother pointed it out on the post next to them. The little 3 year old said "but mummy, that's silly".
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.[/p][/quote]The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this: "Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus" - and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes. If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means. It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion. But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?". York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.[/p][/quote]CYC saved money by NOT buying in the fully automated system and in their inimitable fashion believe thy can do it better manually. (or perhaps it didn't fulfil their aims). Don't forget that it's a 5 way timed sequence they employ - the fifth sequence being the pedestrian phase. Yes they even punish the pedestrians and many take the risk, watch the traffic pattern and cross ignoring the pedestrian green light. On Boroughbridge Road yesterday a little girl of almost three said "Mummy there's no green man" pointing at the post on the opposite side of the road. Her mother pointed it out on the post next to them. The little 3 year old said "but mummy, that's silly". KevinWard59
  • Score: 0

12:41am Sun 4 May 14

jake777 says...

Magicman! wrote:
KevinWard59 wrote:
jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.
All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity.
3 minutes to be exact.
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.[/p][/quote]All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity.[/p][/quote]3 minutes to be exact. jake777
  • Score: 4

2:13am Sun 4 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

Saved "Driving Secrets" and "Dealing With PCN's now in Dropbox Folders:-

https://t.co/0L5837M
2ns -

https://t.co/6byvFpV
48P
Saved "Driving Secrets" and "Dealing With PCN's now in Dropbox Folders:- https://t.co/0L5837M 2ns - https://t.co/6byvFpV 48P KevinWard59
  • Score: 0

2:31am Sun 4 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this:
"Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus"
- and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes.

If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means.

It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion.

But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?".

York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.
Do you mean to say that you had never realised that it is deliberate manipulation of the light sequence timings to create queues in order to annoy you enough to buy a pedal cycle.

This is the underpinning theory of the "Master Plan" to force children to go back where they came from and "Turn Back Time" 1990 Traffic Levels.

It's stated in Black and White in the early LTP's Local Transport Plans.
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.[/p][/quote]The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this: "Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus" - and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes. If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means. It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion. But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?". York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.[/p][/quote]Do you mean to say that you had never realised that it is deliberate manipulation of the light sequence timings to create queues in order to annoy you enough to buy a pedal cycle. This is the underpinning theory of the "Master Plan" to force children to go back where they came from and "Turn Back Time" 1990 Traffic Levels. It's stated in Black and White in the early LTP's Local Transport Plans. KevinWard59
  • Score: 2

2:35am Tue 6 May 14

Magicman! says...

jake777 wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
KevinWard59 wrote:
jake777 wrote:
greenmonkey wrote:
Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.
they do switch off while waiting time.
I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.
All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity.
3 minutes to be exact.
Always feels longer when you're sat on one at Monks Cross P&R site... when it has rolled in late anyway and then the driver goes off for a cig break.
[quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jake777[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]greenmonkey[/bold] wrote: Buses and lorries are the worst polluters, but there emissions are made far worse by sitting in lines of single occupancy private cars. A simple measure to cut pollution (and save precious fuel) would be simply to switch off for the 2-3 mins waiting at traffic lights, and the bus drivers to switch off at places like Rougier St while waiting for their departure time.[/p][/quote]they do switch off while waiting time.[/p][/quote]I believe must of them cut off automatically after idling for a preset period of time.[/p][/quote]All the single deckers on 'YJ07', 'YJ57' or 'YJ08' reg plates will switch off automatically after something like 5-8 minutes of inactivity.[/p][/quote]3 minutes to be exact.[/p][/quote]Always feels longer when you're sat on one at Monks Cross P&R site... when it has rolled in late anyway and then the driver goes off for a cig break. Magicman!
  • Score: 0

2:51am Tue 6 May 14

Magicman! says...

KevinWard59 wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Magicman! wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on.

Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%.

Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.
I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.
I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going.

It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic.

I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.
The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this:
"Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus"
- and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes.

If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means.

It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion.

But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?".

York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.
Do you mean to say that you had never realised that it is deliberate manipulation of the light sequence timings to create queues in order to annoy you enough to buy a pedal cycle.

This is the underpinning theory of the "Master Plan" to force children to go back where they came from and "Turn Back Time" 1990 Traffic Levels.

It's stated in Black and White in the early LTP's Local Transport Plans.
I AM on a pedal cycle. Thant's the thing, because I obey the traffic lights I end up stopping and starting every 2-3 minutes trying to get around this city.

Case in point... from Blossom Street I can turn towards the rail station, come down the hill from the pointless bridge over nothing, and have to put on the brakes because 1 person wants to cross the road at the crossing - and the sensors on the traffic lights see all the motor vehicles going through and holds the lights on green, as soon as what the sensor detects as there being 'no traffic' (in other words a small vehicle such a bicycle) then the lights go red... instead of, um, going to red when the person actually wanted to cross, which was when there were loads of vehicles going through... Anyway, I then get a grene light and set off, only to get a red light about 80 meters further along at the pedestrian crossing outside the Royal York Hotel:- and what's even more frustrating here is that I can actually see the next set of lights at the junction with Leeman Road have just gone to green. By time the pedestrian crossing is clear, this includes the errant pedestrians who see the 'red man' but see traffic is still stopped and so run out into the road (the sensor detects this and so holds me back on a red light even longer), eventually I get a green light only to get within 20 meters (2 bus lengths) of the junction with Leeman Road just to see those lights go red. The I have to wait there on a red light for about 3 minutes for all of 8 cars to go by, the rest of the time waiting for no good reason, and then when I do get a green light I only get as far as the bottom of the hill and there's another shiny new red light waiting to block my access onto Lendal Bridge. Why? why is that red light even there? there is no other flow of traffic which goes across the junction onto the bridge, and 8 out of 10 times there are no pedestrians crossing the road either (plus it'd be a more efficient system if a zebra crossing was installed there anyway). People in cars don't like this stop-start nature, but the simple fact is all they have to do is put a tiny bit more pressure on their foot which is over the break pedal, and then change gear, then when they get a green light get into gear and push their foot down on the accelerator; whereas on a bike you have to work your way back up to speed, only to end up wasting all that expended energy by putting on the brakes because some slack-jawed luddite cannot work out how to programme a sodding set of traffic lights properly!!

And to top this off, the council keeps going round removing cycle priority on key cycling routes, yet they have the audacity to put up a chart online of a "priority hierarchy" for use of the roads, with cyclists and bus users near the top, when actual evidence is quite to the contrary.... and this is because too many people in private vehicles think what they say must go. If more people were on bikes and buses, the council would be forced to acknowledge these groups are on the road, and thus alter things correspondingly.

First York is bringing 6 electric buses to York within the next couple of weeks for the Poppleton P&R site, yet who wants to bet these very expensive vehicles will end up having to wait for far too long along Boroughbridge Road because the traffic lights have broken sensors or are set to only work on timers, and that the traffic lights on the bus gates take too long to change to allow the bus to exit the bus lane...??
[quote][p][bold]KevinWard59[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Given that the council say buses are one of the main reasons York missed it's pollution targets - it is about time. Savings in pollution from the actual buses though will be negated by the additional pollution caused by the council policy of using buses to make all other vehicles stop every time a bus does. Can't wait to see how pollution does on Boroughbridge Road once all the empty P&R buses start to trundle up and down all day stopping other traffic at every opportunity. Mr Merrett's legacy lives on. Talking about Mr Merrett's legacy. Mr Levene will still have his work cut out to reduce pollution levels below those achieved in 2005 as his predecessor and his anti car policies, according to his own reports, put pollution up since 2005 by as mush as 48% and more generally by 33%. Well you have to give the score adjuster something to work on now don't you.[/p][/quote]I have been writing on here for ages that both electric buses are due and Hybrid buses would be out in service shortly. Now the Hybrids are out on service, you still have to find something wrong with buses in York so as to go off on the same old "buses cause congestion which means I can't everywhere quickly" rant that got boring about 4 months ago. Pop your little bubble and see what's outside in the rest of the world.[/p][/quote]I can see what's outside. Queues of cars behind empty buses or at bus gates stopped for no reason and then having to start again using 400% more fuel than they would if they had been allowed to keep going. It is not about getting everywhere quickly, although that is not bad thing is it?. If we get there quickly and earn or spend more does that not help the economy?. It is more about the council deliberately blocking the flow of traffic to bully law abiding residents out of cars and into the arms of a profit making organisation which will lead to nothing more than spending half your day getting there and back and, as the councils own evidence shows, increasing pollution massively without any increases in the volume of traffic. I got bored about 5 years ago with the council telling me to use a cycle or bus increasing journey times in an effort to mislead people into believing traffic volume was increasing, which it is not. I am even more bored now with the daily radio messages about catching buses and they haven't stopped so why should I. I am not the one who is increasing pollution. I am driving far less often into the city centre, to the determent of city centre businesses and, at great expanse to myself, in a far less polluting car. So I am helping yet pollution continues to rise as we get more and more of the same medicine from the council who seem unable to get their heads around there own evidence.[/p][/quote]The fact there are a lot of people in York who *could* cycle or use the bus, as the journey differences would be negligible in terms of time and cost (example: Huntington to Clifton Park or Poppleton buisness park in the morning/afternoon peak times - by bicycle it takes 25-30 minutes, by car you are looking at double that regardless of route, especially if Poppleton is concerned as all the river crossings are congested in the PM peak) - and yet there is a mindset which goes a bit like this: "Buses are for poor people whi can't afford a car, and bikes are for people who failed their driving test and/or are too poor to ever drive a car and can't afford to go on the bus" - and this is why routes such as Malton Road can have a hundred cars or more bumper to bumper being overtaken in the bus lane by a bus with only 2 or 3 people on board, because people take a dim view of getting out of their air conditioned tin boxes. If we assume an average car takes up 3m length of roadspace and during the AM peak time is single occupancy, whilst one of these Hybrid double decker buses takes up 12m roadspace but carries 80 passengers - that one bus would free up 240m roadspace for those who do actually have a physical *need* to drive, such as those with disabilites or carrying heavy/bulky equipment. As a picture, that amount of length is like driving on Water End from Salisbury Road to the lights at Clifton Green without a single vehicle being in front. And during the peak times, that means whoever is 240m behind gets through the traffic lights either 3 or 4 phases earlier than normal... that time at the junction itself then saves 10 minutes there, but because of the knock-on effect of getting through successive junctions after that severl phases earlier, that person who got the 240m of roadspace ends up at their destination 20,30,40,50, maybe even 60 minutes earlier than normal. And all because some people woke up and decided to travel by different means. It doesn't have to be everyday that a person uses the bus or cycles... but if person A decided to cycle every Monday, whilst person B did the same every Tuesday, and so on, there would be a marked reduction in congestion. But currently we have a situation of congestion being "Somebody Else's Problem".... "Why can't other people use the bus?", "Why can't more people cycle so my car journey would be quicker?". York's traffic lights are a right pain in the ar$e, 80% of them have broken sensors, and those where the sensors do work have them overriden by timers, or the sensors' input to the controlling computer is cut off short (case in point: try exiting from New Lane in Huntington onto Malton Road during the morning peak - there can be 30 cars waiting there, the sensor does work, but it only lets out 5 cars per sequence)... but if there were less cars on the roads, certain roads (St Maurices Road, Foss Islands Road into St Maurices Road, Cemetary Road into Paragon Street, Water End at Clifton Green) wouldn't need to be on green for half a lifetime whilst ever-growing queues of vehicles gather on other arms of the junction at an impossibly-long red light signal.[/p][/quote]Do you mean to say that you had never realised that it is deliberate manipulation of the light sequence timings to create queues in order to annoy you enough to buy a pedal cycle. This is the underpinning theory of the "Master Plan" to force children to go back where they came from and "Turn Back Time" 1990 Traffic Levels. It's stated in Black and White in the early LTP's Local Transport Plans.[/p][/quote]I AM on a pedal cycle. Thant's the thing, because I obey the traffic lights I end up stopping and starting every 2-3 minutes trying to get around this city. Case in point... from Blossom Street I can turn towards the rail station, come down the hill from the pointless bridge over nothing, and have to put on the brakes because 1 person wants to cross the road at the crossing - and the sensors on the traffic lights see all the motor vehicles going through and holds the lights on green, as soon as what the sensor detects as there being 'no traffic' (in other words a small vehicle such a bicycle) then the lights go red... instead of, um, going to red when the person actually wanted to cross, which was when there were loads of vehicles going through... Anyway, I then get a grene light and set off, only to get a red light about 80 meters further along at the pedestrian crossing outside the Royal York Hotel:- and what's even more frustrating here is that I can actually see the next set of lights at the junction with Leeman Road have just gone to green. By time the pedestrian crossing is clear, this includes the errant pedestrians who see the 'red man' but see traffic is still stopped and so run out into the road (the sensor detects this and so holds me back on a red light even longer), eventually I get a green light only to get within 20 meters (2 bus lengths) of the junction with Leeman Road just to see those lights go red. The I have to wait there on a red light for about 3 minutes for all of 8 cars to go by, the rest of the time waiting for no good reason, and then when I do get a green light I only get as far as the bottom of the hill and there's another shiny new red light waiting to block my access onto Lendal Bridge. Why? why is that red light even there? there is no other flow of traffic which goes across the junction onto the bridge, and 8 out of 10 times there are no pedestrians crossing the road either (plus it'd be a more efficient system if a zebra crossing was installed there anyway). People in cars don't like this stop-start nature, but the simple fact is all they have to do is put a tiny bit more pressure on their foot which is over the break pedal, and then change gear, then when they get a green light get into gear and push their foot down on the accelerator; whereas on a bike you have to work your way back up to speed, only to end up wasting all that expended energy by putting on the brakes because some slack-jawed luddite cannot work out how to programme a sodding set of traffic lights properly!! And to top this off, the council keeps going round removing cycle priority on key cycling routes, yet they have the audacity to put up a chart online of a "priority hierarchy" for use of the roads, with cyclists and bus users near the top, when actual evidence is quite to the contrary.... and this is because too many people in private vehicles think what they say must go. If more people were on bikes and buses, the council would be forced to acknowledge these groups are on the road, and thus alter things correspondingly. First York is bringing 6 electric buses to York within the next couple of weeks for the Poppleton P&R site, yet who wants to bet these very expensive vehicles will end up having to wait for far too long along Boroughbridge Road because the traffic lights have broken sensors or are set to only work on timers, and that the traffic lights on the bus gates take too long to change to allow the bus to exit the bus lane...?? Magicman!
  • Score: 1

8:49am Tue 6 May 14

KevinWard59 says...

Dear Magicman,

The Council have been causing all this congestion by "Tinkering" with traffic lights to cause congestion instead of making things flow to "encourage" everyone to get a push bike! [as said earlier in the thread - their "Masterplan"

Fortunately, a great number of pedestrians are now treating all the crossings as a straight pedestrian crossing and not a Pelican or Toucan and not even pressing the button but choosing to wait a gap in traffic.

You mentioned Blossom Street. If a pedestrian wishes to get to the diagonally opposite corner they must wait for the next pedestrian sequence. Each one is barely sufficient to cross fully to the other side of the broad roads at that junction. You must then wait for all the other four adjoining roads car phase before you get to cross the next road.

I've seen families of tourists split up and taking ages to rejoin at their distant final destination at the other side of the universe - I mean junction.

Because the sequence often changes for a non existant queue of cars the local pedestrian just crosses as if there were no light controlled crossing at all.

So basically, this reply is to underline that people will ignore stupid and ineffective traffic controls which is little wonder that, unlike your good self, an ever increasing number of cyclists use any footpath (Poppleton Road last night) instead of that designated as the cycle lane and ride through many traffic light junctions when lights are red or changing for one of the other junctures without gay abandon as if it was a non light controlled cross roads too.

So CYC, get it wrong and it can't work because the road users you try to encourage ignore it all and you are defeating your open objectives!
Dear Magicman, The Council have been causing all this congestion by "Tinkering" with traffic lights to cause congestion instead of making things flow to "encourage" everyone to get a push bike! [as said earlier in the thread - their "Masterplan" Fortunately, a great number of pedestrians are now treating all the crossings as a straight pedestrian crossing and not a Pelican or Toucan and not even pressing the button but choosing to wait a gap in traffic. You mentioned Blossom Street. If a pedestrian wishes to get to the diagonally opposite corner they must wait for the next pedestrian sequence. Each one is barely sufficient to cross fully to the other side of the broad roads at that junction. You must then wait for all the other four adjoining roads car phase before you get to cross the next road. I've seen families of tourists split up and taking ages to rejoin at their distant final destination at the other side of the universe - I mean junction. Because the sequence often changes for a non existant queue of cars the local pedestrian just crosses as if there were no light controlled crossing at all. So basically, this reply is to underline that people will ignore stupid and ineffective traffic controls which is little wonder that, unlike your good self, an ever increasing number of cyclists use any footpath (Poppleton Road last night) instead of that designated as the cycle lane and ride through many traffic light junctions when lights are red or changing for one of the other junctures without gay abandon as if it was a non light controlled cross roads too. So CYC, get it wrong and it can't work because the road users you try to encourage ignore it all and you are defeating your open objectives! KevinWard59
  • Score: 1

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