Facelift for York's Bars may not be possible, transport bosses warn

Walmgate Bar

Walmgate Bar

Updated in News

MAJOR improvements to the areas around York's historic Bars may not be possible because of cost and complexity, council transport bosses have warned.

A "streetscape strategy", designed to guide the future of streets and public spaces, has been produced by City of York Council as part of its Reinvigorate York facelift programme, and says the city's five Bars and their settings must be dramatically improved.

The document said street surfaces immediately either side of the Bars should be replaced with natural materials to enhance the special qualities of the structures. However, it also admits funding may be a problem for many of the schemes it suggests, and council transport planners have echoed this concern.

Giving this department's response to a consultation on the strategy, transport planner Andy Vose said: "It may be very difficult to resurface footways and carriageways 20m away from each bar in natural materials, as this will encompass quite a few large inner ring road junctions.

"Walmgate Bar and Micklegate Bar will both involve a huge expanse and be very costly."

The transport planning team also said opportunities to widen pavements in city-centre streets were "few and far between", and that while it could be possible on some streets by removing parking, this "may be controversial, especially if it is disabled parking".

It also questioned the strategy's claim that "successful 20mph zones and areas" had been introduced in parts of York such as Acomb and South Bank, saying this "assumes an outcome which hasn't yet been proved".

The strategy suggests the route into York from the railway station needs a major overhaul, the city-centre is too cluttered and does not have enough cycle-parking, seating and public art, and cycling schemes need more investment but pedestrians may need better protection from bikes on footstreets.

It says the council should consider banning estate agency signs in conservation areas and cracking down on the use of amplified sound by street performers.

Organisations including English Heritage and York Civic Trust, as well as members of the public, took part in the consultation on the strategy, which is now set to go before the council's cabinet to be formally adopted as a "key document" for York's future.

Comments (23)

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9:46am Mon 7 Apr 14

anistasia says...

York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate..
York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate.. anistasia
  • Score: -1

9:57am Mon 7 Apr 14

Fat Harry says...

anistasia wrote:
York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate..
including Fishergate and Victoria bars brings it to six, so I guess one of these has been excluded from the document's consideration - perhaps Fishergate, because the area around it was recently relaid.
[quote][p][bold]anistasia[/bold] wrote: York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate..[/p][/quote]including Fishergate and Victoria bars brings it to six, so I guess one of these has been excluded from the document's consideration - perhaps Fishergate, because the area around it was recently relaid. Fat Harry
  • Score: 10

9:59am Mon 7 Apr 14

Jim says...

Six. Fishergate Bar and Victoria Bar.

How much of this could be funded if we didn't have the introduction of 20mph limits?
Six. Fishergate Bar and Victoria Bar. How much of this could be funded if we didn't have the introduction of 20mph limits? Jim
  • Score: -38

10:23am Mon 7 Apr 14

anistasia says...

Fishergate and Victoria bars not true bars. All tourist pieces have 4 bars.
Fishergate and Victoria bars not true bars. All tourist pieces have 4 bars. anistasia
  • Score: -45

10:26am Mon 7 Apr 14

pedalling paul says...

".........pedestrian
s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?"

Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis.

There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets".

For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements.

The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design.
".........pedestrian s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?" Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis. There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets". For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements. The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design. pedalling paul
  • Score: 48

10:27am Mon 7 Apr 14

Black Douglas says...

Fishergate Bar is one of the 5 medieval bars to the city, but was blocked up in the reign of Henry VII and reopened during the Victorian period. Perhaps that is why there is a reference to 5 bars. Victoria Bar is the only real addition, being, of course, Victorian!
Fishergate Bar is one of the 5 medieval bars to the city, but was blocked up in the reign of Henry VII and reopened during the Victorian period. Perhaps that is why there is a reference to 5 bars. Victoria Bar is the only real addition, being, of course, Victorian! Black Douglas
  • Score: 118

11:32am Mon 7 Apr 14

Big Bad Wolf says...

Where is Victoria bar?
Where is Victoria bar? Big Bad Wolf
  • Score: 50

11:54am Mon 7 Apr 14

anistasia says...

Victoria bar off nunnery lane
Victoria bar off nunnery lane anistasia
  • Score: 21

11:54am Mon 7 Apr 14

BL2 says...

Stop wasting money!! How many streets could be resurfaced and repair for the money they would use here? Hopefully it will never happen.
Stop wasting money!! How many streets could be resurfaced and repair for the money they would use here? Hopefully it will never happen. BL2
  • Score: -94

12:04pm Mon 7 Apr 14

eeoodares says...

Great, stop spending money you do not have. Come the elections you will not have to worry about it again.
Great, stop spending money you do not have. Come the elections you will not have to worry about it again. eeoodares
  • Score: -69

1:01pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Teabag1 says...

Tourism should be tapped to pay for some of this stuff
Tourism should be tapped to pay for some of this stuff Teabag1
  • Score: -51

1:08pm Mon 7 Apr 14

amike says...

'replaced with natural materials'

Would this be the same 'natural' material being used in King's Square?
'replaced with natural materials' Would this be the same 'natural' material being used in King's Square? amike
  • Score: -84

1:39pm Mon 7 Apr 14

YorkPatrol says...

And that's why they are spending it (or racking up the dept)!

Just like Gordon Brown did.... The mess and dept will be someone else’s problem and they will then come under criticism for having to make essential cuts......

It’s the way Labour work – Not the most intelligent but then again, nor are the people who vote them in!
And that's why they are spending it (or racking up the dept)! Just like Gordon Brown did.... The mess and dept will be someone else’s problem and they will then come under criticism for having to make essential cuts...... It’s the way Labour work – Not the most intelligent but then again, nor are the people who vote them in! YorkPatrol
  • Score: -71

1:43pm Mon 7 Apr 14

AnotherPointofView says...

So this is what the council have been dreaming up whilst they have had their heads in the sand over Lendal Bridge?
So this is what the council have been dreaming up whilst they have had their heads in the sand over Lendal Bridge? AnotherPointofView
  • Score: -71

4:52pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Yorkswalls says...

I hope CYC has the money to repair Walmgate Bar.It has been held up with scaffolding for over 2 years. CYC have a duty to keep these buildings in good repair.
I hope CYC has the money to repair Walmgate Bar.It has been held up with scaffolding for over 2 years. CYC have a duty to keep these buildings in good repair. Yorkswalls
  • Score: -4

7:34pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Igiveinthen says...

pedalling paul wrote:
".........pedes
trian
s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?"

Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis.

There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets".

For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements.

The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design.
By gum pp/Hepworth you don't half read a lot of technical information that you can plagiarise, makes it sound as though your a real expert, or is it ex twerp?
[quote][p][bold]pedalling paul [/bold] wrote: ".........pedes trian s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?" Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis. There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets". For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements. The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design.[/p][/quote]By gum pp/Hepworth you don't half read a lot of technical information that you can plagiarise, makes it sound as though your a real expert, or is it ex twerp? Igiveinthen
  • Score: -38

9:20pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Terry3 says...

The Bars and Walls are some of the major attractions for York, do not let them crumble.
The council owe it to the citizens of this lovely city to maintain it's historic value.
they, The council waste enough money on stupid projects, let them re-direct some of this money to genuine maintenance of these historic buildings.
The Bars and Walls are some of the major attractions for York, do not let them crumble. The council owe it to the citizens of this lovely city to maintain it's historic value. they, The council waste enough money on stupid projects, let them re-direct some of this money to genuine maintenance of these historic buildings. Terry3
  • Score: -10

10:05pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Pinza-C55 says...

amike wrote:
'replaced with natural materials'

Would this be the same 'natural' material being used in King's Square?
Or the "Natural Material" (concrete I think) used to repave the gate opposite the Barbican? I am glad they have ran out of money because every project they do looks as though it is made out of Lego.
[quote][p][bold]amike[/bold] wrote: 'replaced with natural materials' Would this be the same 'natural' material being used in King's Square?[/p][/quote]Or the "Natural Material" (concrete I think) used to repave the gate opposite the Barbican? I am glad they have ran out of money because every project they do looks as though it is made out of Lego. Pinza-C55
  • Score: -13

7:18am Tue 8 Apr 14

krites says...

Given that tourism is, and looks set to continue to be, one of York's most important industries, isn't it vital to make sure the things that appeal to the tourists are well looked after and made as attractive as possible?
Given that tourism is, and looks set to continue to be, one of York's most important industries, isn't it vital to make sure the things that appeal to the tourists are well looked after and made as attractive as possible? krites
  • Score: 17

3:55pm Tue 8 Apr 14

bloodaxe says...

anistasia wrote:
York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate..
Where do you live ?
[quote][p][bold]anistasia[/bold] wrote: York's 5 bars I understood York only had 4 bars monk, bootham, walmgate, micklegate..[/p][/quote]Where do you live ? bloodaxe
  • Score: -1

4:11pm Tue 8 Apr 14

bloodaxe says...

YorkPatrol wrote:
And that's why they are spending it (or racking up the dept)!

Just like Gordon Brown did.... The mess and dept will be someone else’s problem and they will then come under criticism for having to make essential cuts......

It’s the way Labour work – Not the most intelligent but then again, nor are the people who vote them in!
Another comment by a rightwing firebrand. Why can the loony right not get it into their heads that Gordon Brown did not, repeat not, cause the global economic downturn, nor was Labour's borrowing highr than the Tories' in real terms. Current borrowing under Mr. Osborne has been higher than it was in the entirety of Labour's tenure. To say that this is a consequence of having to undo, "he mess we inherited" is as disingenuous as not admitting that most of the so-called reckless borrowing under Labour was attributable to the collapse in tax revenue after 2008, thanks to American sub-prime lending and mad speculation on bundled derivatives by Lehman Brothers, Northern Rock, the Royal Bank of Scotland and many others who are still walking free. By the way, essential cuts merely exacerbate the problem and prolong the recessionary effect, by reducing wages and spending, lowering tax revenues and preventing social investment, while at the same time increasing the need for social support with the necessity of having to pay benefits from a diminishing income stream. Always interesting the the cuts are made to the the people who did not cause the problem, while those who did enjoy ever-increasing returns. Oh well, that's capitalism for you.
[quote][p][bold]YorkPatrol[/bold] wrote: And that's why they are spending it (or racking up the dept)! Just like Gordon Brown did.... The mess and dept will be someone else’s problem and they will then come under criticism for having to make essential cuts...... It’s the way Labour work – Not the most intelligent but then again, nor are the people who vote them in![/p][/quote]Another comment by a rightwing firebrand. Why can the loony right not get it into their heads that Gordon Brown did not, repeat not, cause the global economic downturn, nor was Labour's borrowing highr than the Tories' in real terms. Current borrowing under Mr. Osborne has been higher than it was in the entirety of Labour's tenure. To say that this is a consequence of having to undo, "he mess we inherited" is as disingenuous as not admitting that most of the so-called reckless borrowing under Labour was attributable to the collapse in tax revenue after 2008, thanks to American sub-prime lending and mad speculation on bundled derivatives by Lehman Brothers, Northern Rock, the Royal Bank of Scotland and many others who are still walking free. By the way, essential cuts merely exacerbate the problem and prolong the recessionary effect, by reducing wages and spending, lowering tax revenues and preventing social investment, while at the same time increasing the need for social support with the necessity of having to pay benefits from a diminishing income stream. Always interesting the the cuts are made to the the people who did not cause the problem, while those who did enjoy ever-increasing returns. Oh well, that's capitalism for you. bloodaxe
  • Score: 1

4:37am Wed 9 Apr 14

Magicman! says...

pedalling paul wrote:
".........pedes
trian
s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?"

Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis.

There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets".

For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements.

The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design.
... whilst the Minster Plazza is one of the worst!

All paving is the same colour, you need a comically-oversized magnifying glass to find the bicycle pictograms on the paving surface showing the cycle route, and tactile paving does not extend the length of the cycle route through the area.

One day there is going to be a blind person step out from behind a crowd of people on the Plazza who will be knocked over by a cyclist legally using the marked cycle lane. This isn't a "what if" situation, I am saying unless something is changed pretty soon, this WILL happen - and who will be to blame? The cyclist is legally using the marked cycle lane and couldn't see the blind person because they stepped out from a group of people; the blind person is not to blame, because they cannot see where they are going and rely either on heavily-contrasted paving surfaces and/or tactile paving they can feel with their guide stick of feet to know where the carriageway boundary is, of which the Plazza lacks both; so the only conclusion is that the council will be held responsible for alowing this to be built despite it failing to meet the criteria set under the Disability Discrimination Act - and if both blind person and cyclist get badly injured, then the council will end up paying two compensation claims.

Walmgate bar only works because pedestrians have no need to walk under that arch used by bicycles, and so they have no need to walk along the 'shared use' area.

Whilst harsh edged kerbs might not be required, a dropped-level cycle lane with tapered edges and a different surface colour is, and always will be, the best way to make cycle provision in a pedestrian-heavy area, along with good signage.
[quote][p][bold]pedalling paul [/bold] wrote: ".........pedes trian s may need better protection from bikes on footstreets....?" Local Authorities have powers to introduce Traffic Orders which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share a highway, where other vehicles are not permitted or where some are eg buses/taxis. There is guidance from the Dept. for Transport in LTN 2/08 "Cycle Infrastructure Design". Section 4.3 deals with cycling through "Vehicle Restricted Areas" which is the correct legal term for what York calls "Footstreets". For example, demarcated cycle routes are not favoured because they may create a territorial attitude. Instead, streetscape design including furniture, planters and surface treatment can suggest a vehicle route. Pedestrians with sensory restrictions can benefit from "tapping edging" pavoirs to indicate to them that they are entering an area where they might encounter vehicle movements. The redesigned short cycle link on the inside of Walmgate Bar is an excellent example of modern "historic" design.[/p][/quote]... whilst the Minster Plazza is one of the worst! All paving is the same colour, you need a comically-oversized magnifying glass to find the bicycle pictograms on the paving surface showing the cycle route, and tactile paving does not extend the length of the cycle route through the area. One day there is going to be a blind person step out from behind a crowd of people on the Plazza who will be knocked over by a cyclist legally using the marked cycle lane. This isn't a "what if" situation, I am saying unless something is changed pretty soon, this WILL happen - and who will be to blame? The cyclist is legally using the marked cycle lane and couldn't see the blind person because they stepped out from a group of people; the blind person is not to blame, because they cannot see where they are going and rely either on heavily-contrasted paving surfaces and/or tactile paving they can feel with their guide stick of feet to know where the carriageway boundary is, of which the Plazza lacks both; so the only conclusion is that the council will be held responsible for alowing this to be built despite it failing to meet the criteria set under the Disability Discrimination Act - and if both blind person and cyclist get badly injured, then the council will end up paying two compensation claims. Walmgate bar only works because pedestrians have no need to walk under that arch used by bicycles, and so they have no need to walk along the 'shared use' area. Whilst harsh edged kerbs might not be required, a dropped-level cycle lane with tapered edges and a different surface colour is, and always will be, the best way to make cycle provision in a pedestrian-heavy area, along with good signage. Magicman!
  • Score: 0

5:51pm Fri 11 Apr 14

tobefair says...

Pedestrians definitely need protection from cyclists and not only on foot streets.
Some cyclists think it is ok to ride on all pavements and expect pedestrians to get out of their way.
Pedestrians definitely need protection from cyclists and not only on foot streets. Some cyclists think it is ok to ride on all pavements and expect pedestrians to get out of their way. tobefair
  • Score: 0

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