Hundreds stealing to survive in York

Jane Mowat

Father Tim Jones

First published in News York Press: Photograph of the Author by , Chief reporter

AN INCREASING number of people have been caught shoplifting in York for the first time and stealing food to survive, according to a senior crime analyst.

Ian Cunningham, of Safer York Partnership, said in the three or four months running up to Christmas, 200 different people were arrested for shoplifting – 170 of whom were first-timers unknown to the police.

He told councillors that many were stealing food items, adding: “They were stealing to survive.”

Jane Mowat, director of the partnership at City of York Council, said shoplifting statistics for 2013 suggested 344 individuals committed a York shoplifting offence who had not come to the police’s attention for that offence in the previous 12 months.

“This is out of a total of 521 individuals who were arrested for shoplifting in 2013 and is a higher proportion – 66 per cent – than figures in 2012, with 48 per cent,” she said.

The statistics show that of the 344 shoplifters arrested for the first time, 37 per cent had been caught at supermarkets or convenience stores, compared with 28 per cent at clothing stores, 17 per cent at cosmetics stores/chemists and 19 per cent at generic retail premises.

Ms Mowat revealed that December had seen one of the city’s lowest Christmas shoplifting levels since 2003, with levels especially low within the city-centre shopping area – reflecting its success in dealing with prolific offenders.

The theft of basic foodstuffs is a higher proportion of goods stolen for this group of offenders than for other shoplifters.

She said when people had been arrested for shoplifting, there could be a “community resolution disposal” where both the victim and the offender were happy to give and receive a written or verbal apology, compensation or an arrangement for voluntary work to be undertaken with the victim.

Father Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda, who hit the headlines around the world in 2009 when he advised society’s most vulnerable and needy people to shoplift, said yesterday: “We all need to be careful not to judge too quickly, and to help each other where we can. Many people believe a myth that the welfare state is watertight, providing a constant supply of generous benefits to everyone in need.

"That has never been true, and things are getting much harder, even for people who never imagined that things would become so desperate for themselves.”

He said the good news was that a strong network of foodbanks had been developed, largely by local churches and supported by supermarkets, schools and the wider community.

“I urge anyone who is struggling to contact their local foodbank.”

Steve Allitt, welfare benefits adviser at York Citizens Advice Bureau, based at West Offices, said: “There is an increasing problem with the cost of living rises, fuel bills, food etc, and it is getting hard for some people to make ends meet.

“People should make us their first port of call because there may be unclaimed benefits they are not aware of and we can negotiate with creditors.”

The Citizen’s Advice helpline is 08444 111444 and there is a drop-in session every Monday, Tuesday and Thursday at 9.30am at West Offices CAB.

Comments (66)

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11:34am Wed 22 Jan 14

piaggio1 says...

Community resolution disposal. ??????
Words do fail me.
And this person gets PAID. by us.????????
Community resolution disposal. ?????? Words do fail me. And this person gets PAID. by us.???????? piaggio1
  • Score: 6

11:44am Wed 22 Jan 14

Whistlejacket says...

It's not really possible to compare 2013 with 2012.
A couple of years ago, there was a push to get a lot of the street beggars and junkies out of the city centre. In the last six months or so, they seem to have crept back in. There are also now more food outlets, in the form of mini-supermarkets, in the city centre.
More criminals plus more opportunity tends to equal more crime.
It's not really possible to compare 2013 with 2012. A couple of years ago, there was a push to get a lot of the street beggars and junkies out of the city centre. In the last six months or so, they seem to have crept back in. There are also now more food outlets, in the form of mini-supermarkets, in the city centre. More criminals plus more opportunity tends to equal more crime. Whistlejacket
  • Score: 15

11:55am Wed 22 Jan 14

old_geezer says...

Probably ever since money was invented, human society has had "stealing is stealing" versus "I was desperate". All we can do is try (we'll never get it right) to arrange that nobody is driven to desperate measures, yet punish to deter the merely dishonest. Merely to condemn or condone is to avoid dealing with life's casualties.
Probably ever since money was invented, human society has had "stealing is stealing" versus "I was desperate". All we can do is try (we'll never get it right) to arrange that nobody is driven to desperate measures, yet punish to deter the merely dishonest. Merely to condemn or condone is to avoid dealing with life's casualties. old_geezer
  • Score: 10

12:05pm Wed 22 Jan 14

The Great Buda says...

Whistlejacket wrote:
It's not really possible to compare 2013 with 2012.
A couple of years ago, there was a push to get a lot of the street beggars and junkies out of the city centre. In the last six months or so, they seem to have crept back in. There are also now more food outlets, in the form of mini-supermarkets, in the city centre.
More criminals plus more opportunity tends to equal more crime.
I'm reminded of the old spoof TV News show "The Day Today" with the end of that post.
[quote][p][bold]Whistlejacket[/bold] wrote: It's not really possible to compare 2013 with 2012. A couple of years ago, there was a push to get a lot of the street beggars and junkies out of the city centre. In the last six months or so, they seem to have crept back in. There are also now more food outlets, in the form of mini-supermarkets, in the city centre. More criminals plus more opportunity tends to equal more crime.[/p][/quote]I'm reminded of the old spoof TV News show "The Day Today" with the end of that post. The Great Buda
  • Score: -10

12:54pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Archiebold the 1st says...

so people are stealing as their benifits have been cut and can not be bothered to get a job...
so people are stealing as their benifits have been cut and can not be bothered to get a job... Archiebold the 1st
  • Score: -22

1:11pm Wed 22 Jan 14

markymmark says...

I wonder how many of those "stealing to survive" had nice smartphones on contract in their pockets.
I wonder how many of those "stealing to survive" had nice smartphones on contract in their pockets. markymmark
  • Score: 4

1:27pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Buzzz Light-year says...

Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc
Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc Buzzz Light-year
  • Score: -21

1:49pm Wed 22 Jan 14

YorkPatrol says...

Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”??

Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve.

And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….
Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”?? Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve. And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones…. YorkPatrol
  • Score: -22

1:52pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Pete the Brickie says...

Luckily I'm able to help my politically motivated friends from the council as they clearly lack understanding of possible reasons for this statistical outcome.


First time offender/Not previously known to the police = Not caught before

I was stealing food to eat = Mitigation for I needed some money for fags and booze between cheques, and decided to steal some food to sell at half the recommended retail price to other benefits claimants on my street. This excuse was provided to me by a nice man in a wig and gown provided to me free of charge by local taxpayers.
Luckily I'm able to help my politically motivated friends from the council as they clearly lack understanding of possible reasons for this statistical outcome. First time offender/Not previously known to the police = Not caught before I was stealing food to eat = Mitigation for I needed some money for fags and booze between cheques, and decided to steal some food to sell at half the recommended retail price to other benefits claimants on my street. This excuse was provided to me by a nice man in a wig and gown provided to me free of charge by local taxpayers. Pete the Brickie
  • Score: -2

1:55pm Wed 22 Jan 14

CHISSY1 says...

"Hundreds stealing to survive in York".What a load of rubbish.Statistics=a
n idiot with a pencil and a rubber.
"Hundreds stealing to survive in York".What a load of rubbish.Statistics=a n idiot with a pencil and a rubber. CHISSY1
  • Score: -18

2:18pm Wed 22 Jan 14

courier46 says...

Too all those starting shoplifting ,don't worry about jail ,you`ll need at least to go to court 140 times before our judges decide to give you 2 weeks inside and even then you`ll be out in 5 days.That`s only the 140 times you get caught not the thousand you got away with.
Too all those starting shoplifting ,don't worry about jail ,you`ll need at least to go to court 140 times before our judges decide to give you 2 weeks inside and even then you`ll be out in 5 days.That`s only the 140 times you get caught not the thousand you got away with. courier46
  • Score: -14

2:48pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Proudlock says...

Just another reason to give food stamps instead of cash benefits. Just how many of these theives will have 42" tvs and sky at home yet 'can't afford' a loaf of bread...
Just another reason to give food stamps instead of cash benefits. Just how many of these theives will have 42" tvs and sky at home yet 'can't afford' a loaf of bread... Proudlock
  • Score: -14

2:57pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Kevin Turvey says...

‘Stealing to survive’ – my @rse.
Just plain stealing and if caught with an excuse worded to attempt it sound more morally acceptable TO STEAL.

There are plenty out there with little money/live on benefits/old age pensions that do not STEAL.

‘She said when people had been arrested for shoplifting, there could be a “community resolution disposal” where both the victim and the offender were happy to give and receive a written or verbal apology, compensation or an arrangement for voluntary work to be undertaken with the victim.‘

That will work then!

How about the only part of sharia law I agree with – cut off their hand.

Soft on crime punishment equals more crime from the same people because there is no deterent!
‘Stealing to survive’ – my @rse. Just plain stealing and if caught with an excuse worded to attempt it sound more morally acceptable TO STEAL. There are plenty out there with little money/live on benefits/old age pensions that do not STEAL. ‘She said when people had been arrested for shoplifting, there could be a “community resolution disposal” where both the victim and the offender were happy to give and receive a written or verbal apology, compensation or an arrangement for voluntary work to be undertaken with the victim.‘ That will work then! How about the only part of sharia law I agree with – cut off their hand. Soft on crime punishment equals more crime from the same people because there is no deterent! Kevin Turvey
  • Score: -29

3:16pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

AN INCREASING number of people have been caught shoplifting in York for the first time and stealing food to survive, according to a senior crime analyst.


The skeptics amongst us would question the way this issue has been reported (skewed even ?).

The Safer York Patrtnership is part of the Council, and they are part of the Stamp Out Poverty group along with the Press, and others including JRF.

Nothing wrong with this groups objectives, but, as with Lendal Bridge, we see day in day out, the massaging of data to fit certain political agendas.

I'm far from convinced that this data has been accurately and fairly analysed, and whether the conclusions are truly representative of the facts.
[quote] AN INCREASING number of people have been caught shoplifting in York for the first time and stealing food to survive, according to a senior crime analyst. [/quote] The skeptics amongst us would question the way this issue has been reported (skewed even ?). The Safer York Patrtnership is part of the Council, and they are part of the Stamp Out Poverty group along with the Press, and others including JRF. Nothing wrong with this groups objectives, but, as with Lendal Bridge, we see day in day out, the massaging of data to fit certain political agendas. I'm far from convinced that this data has been accurately and fairly analysed, and whether the conclusions are truly representative of the facts. Rocking Horse
  • Score: -23

3:20pm Wed 22 Jan 14

bolero says...

`Community Resolution disposal`, what an absolute load of b*******. And we are paying someone to come out with this garbage. So the foodbanks are not working. Shoplifting to survive? More b*******. Just pathetic, fag smoking, mobile phoning, tattooed ne'er do goods. Put them where they belong, in jail.
`Community Resolution disposal`, what an absolute load of b*******. And we are paying someone to come out with this garbage. So the foodbanks are not working. Shoplifting to survive? More b*******. Just pathetic, fag smoking, mobile phoning, tattooed ne'er do goods. Put them where they belong, in jail. bolero
  • Score: -27

3:21pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Sillybillies says...

Buzzz Light-year wrote:
Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc
Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate.

There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear.

All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies.
[quote][p][bold]Buzzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc[/p][/quote]Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate. There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear. All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies. Sillybillies
  • Score: -24

4:41pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Firedrake says...

As usual - huge generalizations on all sides. There are undoubtedly people who steal out of near-necessity and I am sympathetic ... without actually condoning the theft itself. Similarly, there are undoubtedly people who will use any excuse to justify what is in any case habitual behviour - some of whom may indeed have smart phones in their pockets and large screen TVs at home.

I also suspect that there may be people who starting nicking stuff out of perceived necessity and - sadly - developed a taste for it! Now, that would be a real tragedy ... but who would be to blame?

But it's so much easier to think in term's of "one size fits all" definitions of human behaviour, isn't it?
As usual - huge generalizations on all sides. There are undoubtedly people who steal out of near-necessity and I am sympathetic ... without actually condoning the theft itself. Similarly, there are undoubtedly people who will use any excuse to justify what is in any case habitual behviour - some of whom may indeed have smart phones in their pockets and large screen TVs at home. I also suspect that there may be people who starting nicking stuff out of perceived necessity and - sadly - developed a taste for it! Now, that would be a real tragedy ... but who would be to blame? But it's so much easier to think in term's of "one size fits all" definitions of human behaviour, isn't it? Firedrake
  • Score: -19

4:43pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Firedrake says...

Aaaagh - I can't believe I used a stray apostrophe in "terms" !!!! Sackcloth and Ashes!
Aaaagh - I can't believe I used a stray apostrophe in "terms" !!!! Sackcloth and Ashes! Firedrake
  • Score: -22

4:57pm Wed 22 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

NO!! they are stealing cos they are thieves !! Simple!! Why not work to survive like I and many others do??
NO!! they are stealing cos they are thieves !! Simple!! Why not work to survive like I and many others do?? oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -23

5:20pm Wed 22 Jan 14

geoff tibletts says...

What a load of rubbish people just don't start stealing food to survive it's something they would have always done,the only differance this time is they got caught.a previous poster is correct time to give benefits in food vouchers not iPhone vouchers
What a load of rubbish people just don't start stealing food to survive it's something they would have always done,the only differance this time is they got caught.a previous poster is correct time to give benefits in food vouchers not iPhone vouchers geoff tibletts
  • Score: -22

5:34pm Wed 22 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

geoff tibletts wrote:
What a load of rubbish people just don't start stealing food to survive it's something they would have always done,the only differance this time is they got caught.a previous poster is correct time to give benefits in food vouchers not iPhone vouchers
just check out the face books of the 2 recent thieves who robbed the mcol's shop... 1 even describes his middle name as 'crim' (short for criminal for the naive lefty amongst us) seem very proud and "gangsta" of what they get up to!

its time for some judge dredd style policing in this country
[quote][p][bold]geoff tibletts[/bold] wrote: What a load of rubbish people just don't start stealing food to survive it's something they would have always done,the only differance this time is they got caught.a previous poster is correct time to give benefits in food vouchers not iPhone vouchers[/p][/quote]just check out the face books of the 2 recent thieves who robbed the mcol's shop... 1 even describes his middle name as 'crim' (short for criminal for the naive lefty amongst us) seem very proud and "gangsta" of what they get up to! its time for some judge dredd style policing in this country oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -28

5:36pm Wed 22 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

What a pity these shoplifters were caught, there again at least their arrests should have resulted in referrals to appropriate agencies to help in their plight battling against inequalities, social othering and demonisation, at the hands of our ignorant and misinformed political elite and I'm alright Jack general public.

To those people affected, if you have to take food again without paying for it then please make sure you are not seen; if you are seen then remember it isn't theft until you've left the premises, so put it back and try again later - good luck.
What a pity these shoplifters were caught, there again at least their arrests should have resulted in referrals to appropriate agencies to help in their plight battling against inequalities, social othering and demonisation, at the hands of our ignorant and misinformed political elite and I'm alright Jack general public. To those people affected, if you have to take food again without paying for it then please make sure you are not seen; if you are seen then remember it isn't theft until you've left the premises, so put it back and try again later - good luck. andyjon12
  • Score: -45

6:01pm Wed 22 Jan 14

tonyfromitaly says...

Sillybillies wrote:
Buzzz Light-year wrote:
Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc
Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate.

There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear.

All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies.
An unintelligent contribution to a serious debate !
I have had the measure of the man for a long long time.
I now think of him as an empty can rattling away.
[quote][p][bold]Sillybillies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Buzzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc[/p][/quote]Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate. There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear. All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies.[/p][/quote]An unintelligent contribution to a serious debate ! I have had the measure of the man for a long long time. I now think of him as an empty can rattling away. tonyfromitaly
  • Score: -33

6:03pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Hicarrumba says...

why tar every out of work person with the same brush? food vouchers, crazy, don't you think the scummy ones will sell them for fags anyway, at a reduced rate which means they will go out and steal even more.
why tar every out of work person with the same brush? food vouchers, crazy, don't you think the scummy ones will sell them for fags anyway, at a reduced rate which means they will go out and steal even more. Hicarrumba
  • Score: -30

6:05pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council.

What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ?

Is this another non-job ?
No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ? Rocking Horse
  • Score: -12

6:09pm Wed 22 Jan 14

courier46 says...

Rocking Horse wrote:
No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council.

What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ?

Is this another non-job ?
I think it is another non job but how do we the public get these non jobs taken away?
[quote][p][bold]Rocking Horse[/bold] wrote: No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ?[/p][/quote]I think it is another non job but how do we the public get these non jobs taken away? courier46
  • Score: -24

6:13pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

Why steal food when there are food banks for those legitimately in need ?

They steal because they are thieves, and those who plead otherwise are using poverty as a convenient excuse.

Was this story based on a press release written by the Council's politicised communications (propaganda) department ?

It certainly looks that way.
Why steal food when there are food banks for those legitimately in need ? They steal because they are thieves, and those who plead otherwise are using poverty as a convenient excuse. Was this story based on a press release written by the Council's politicised communications (propaganda) department ? It certainly looks that way. Rocking Horse
  • Score: -32

6:23pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

Rocking Horse wrote:
No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ?
Ms Mowat revealed that December had seen one of the city’s lowest Christmas shoplifting levels since 2003 , with levels especially low within the city-centre shopping area – reflecting its success in dealing with prolific offenders.

The theft of basic foodstuffs is a higher proportion of goods stolen for this group of offenders than for other shoplifters.


So shoplifting overall has actually fallen, but foodstuffs is a higher proportion. This does not necessarily mean theft of food has gone up. Where are the actual figures ?

This is very poor reporting, and smacks of spin, all to suit a political agenda !
[quote][p][bold]Rocking Horse[/bold] wrote: No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ?[/p][/quote][quote] Ms Mowat revealed that December had seen [bold] one of the city’s lowest Christmas shoplifting levels since 2003 [/bold] , with levels especially low within the city-centre shopping area – reflecting its success in dealing with prolific offenders. The theft of basic foodstuffs is a higher proportion of goods stolen for this group of offenders than for other shoplifters. [/quote] So shoplifting overall has actually fallen, but foodstuffs is a higher proportion. This does not necessarily mean theft of food has gone up. Where are the actual figures ? This is very poor reporting, and smacks of spin, all to suit a political agenda ! Rocking Horse
  • Score: -17

6:25pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

courier46 wrote:
Rocking Horse wrote: No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ?
I think it is another non job but how do we the public get these non jobs taken away?
Vote Labour out in 2015 !
[quote][p][bold]courier46[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rocking Horse[/bold] wrote: No poverty for Jane Mowatt, who, as Head of Community Safety, is paid a salary of £50,829 by City of York Council. What does she do exactly, which the Police do not do ? Is this another non-job ?[/p][/quote]I think it is another non job but how do we the public get these non jobs taken away?[/p][/quote]Vote Labour out in 2015 ! Rocking Horse
  • Score: -32

6:26pm Wed 22 Jan 14

roy_batty says...

Rocking Horse wrote:
Why steal food when there are food banks for those legitimately in need ?

They steal because they are thieves, and those who plead otherwise are using poverty as a convenient excuse.

Was this story based on a press release written by the Council's politicised communications (propaganda) department ?

It certainly looks that way.
Very valid point there ... Proves that the steal because they are just simply criminals ...
[quote][p][bold]Rocking Horse[/bold] wrote: Why steal food when there are food banks for those legitimately in need ? They steal because they are thieves, and those who plead otherwise are using poverty as a convenient excuse. Was this story based on a press release written by the Council's politicised communications (propaganda) department ? It certainly looks that way.[/p][/quote]Very valid point there ... Proves that the steal because they are just simply criminals ... roy_batty
  • Score: -20

6:36pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Rocking Horse says...

So shoplifting figures in York have actually fallen, but, food is a higher proportion than before, and what headline do we get ?

A front page stating,

'STEALING TO SURVIVE'

All very convenient for the Press and Council's Stamp Out Poverty campaign.

This is blatant politcal propaganda !

It stinks !
So shoplifting figures in York have actually fallen, but, food is a higher proportion than before, and what headline do we get ? A front page stating, [bold] 'STEALING TO SURVIVE' [/bold] All very convenient for the Press and Council's Stamp Out Poverty campaign. This is blatant politcal propaganda ! It stinks ! Rocking Horse
  • Score: -24

6:52pm Wed 22 Jan 14

bolero says...

Rocking Horse wrote:
So shoplifting figures in York have actually fallen, but, food is a higher proportion than before, and what headline do we get ?

A front page stating,

'STEALING TO SURVIVE'

All very convenient for the Press and Council's Stamp Out Poverty campaign.

This is blatant politcal propaganda !

It stinks !
Don't politics in general stink?
[quote][p][bold]Rocking Horse[/bold] wrote: So shoplifting figures in York have actually fallen, but, food is a higher proportion than before, and what headline do we get ? A front page stating, [bold] 'STEALING TO SURVIVE' [/bold] All very convenient for the Press and Council's Stamp Out Poverty campaign. This is blatant politcal propaganda ! It stinks ![/p][/quote]Don't politics in general stink? bolero
  • Score: -8

6:59pm Wed 22 Jan 14

postie28 says...

I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital.
I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital. postie28
  • Score: -5

7:11pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Zetkin says...

The raving right is out in force today - is apoplexy contagious?

Those who believe the solution to poverty and the crime that sometimes results is for people to "get a job" should consider the following:

Over the last couple of years there have in general been:
500,000 job vanancies
2,250,000 unemployed people
6,500,000 under-employed people

"Get a job" can only be a solution for a small minority whilst we have a government intent in shrinking the economy rather than growing it.

Add to the mix a range of sanctions that can arbitrarily deprive claimants of four weeks' money and a hate-fuelled culture of abusing anyone who uses a food bank, and it's not altogether surprising that some people get so desperate they feel they've run out of options.
The raving right is out in force today - is apoplexy contagious? Those who believe the solution to poverty and the crime that sometimes results is for people to "get a job" should consider the following: Over the last couple of years there have in general been: 500,000 job vanancies 2,250,000 unemployed people 6,500,000 under-employed people "Get a job" can only be a solution for a small minority whilst we have a government intent in shrinking the economy rather than growing it. Add to the mix a range of sanctions that can arbitrarily deprive claimants of four weeks' money and a hate-fuelled culture of abusing anyone who uses a food bank, and it's not altogether surprising that some people get so desperate they feel they've run out of options. Zetkin
  • Score: 1

7:52pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Buzzz Light-year says...

The reason I posted a glib (not at all unintelligent) comment on this story is because it is far too clouded by extreme polarised views.
It's easy for people to kneejerk their opinions - by - proxy.

Firedrake's post is a good balanced view and SillyBillies for all his faults makes the most salient point on the whole page when he refers to the general sense of entitlement pervading society today.

Rocking Horse as usual makes highly politicised and personally offensive comments. It's perfectly acceptable for people to be paid well for a job that helps any section of society - in this case the poor. Should Jane Mowat be out there wearing a loin cloth and only eating once a week in order to help? Of course not, how would that help?
The reason I posted a glib (not at all unintelligent) comment on this story is because it is far too clouded by extreme polarised views. It's easy for people to kneejerk their opinions - by - proxy. Firedrake's post is a good balanced view and SillyBillies for all his faults makes the most salient point on the whole page when he refers to the general sense of entitlement pervading society today. Rocking Horse as usual makes highly politicised and personally offensive comments. It's perfectly acceptable for people to be paid well for a job that helps any section of society - in this case the poor. Should Jane Mowat be out there wearing a loin cloth and only eating once a week in order to help? Of course not, how would that help? Buzzz Light-year
  • Score: -13

7:53pm Wed 22 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now.

Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for.
There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now. Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for. andyjon12
  • Score: -16

7:59pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Seadog says...

Well said Zetkin, Postie, Firedrake and a few others. This is NOT a "black and white" issue. I think this is what the Rev Tim Jones is trying to get across, although he does tend to use the kind of language which is bound to inflame Zetkin's "raving right" which may hinder rather than help ... but I think I understand where he's coming from.
Well said Zetkin, Postie, Firedrake and a few others. This is NOT a "black and white" issue. I think this is what the Rev Tim Jones is trying to get across, although he does tend to use the kind of language which is bound to inflame Zetkin's "raving right" which may hinder rather than help ... but I think I understand where he's coming from. Seadog
  • Score: -10

8:00pm Wed 22 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

Zetkin wrote:
The raving right is out in force today - is apoplexy contagious?

Those who believe the solution to poverty and the crime that sometimes results is for people to "get a job" should consider the following:

Over the last couple of years there have in general been:
500,000 job vanancies
2,250,000 unemployed people
6,500,000 under-employed people

"Get a job" can only be a solution for a small minority whilst we have a government intent in shrinking the economy rather than growing it.

Add to the mix a range of sanctions that can arbitrarily deprive claimants of four weeks' money and a hate-fuelled culture of abusing anyone who uses a food bank, and it's not altogether surprising that some people get so desperate they feel they've run out of options.
for every raving right ..... there is a loony lefty .... i could quote a tracy simpson lunatic tweet about us needing more immigration recently but i won't because you probably are her (or associated with her)
[quote][p][bold]Zetkin[/bold] wrote: The raving right is out in force today - is apoplexy contagious? Those who believe the solution to poverty and the crime that sometimes results is for people to "get a job" should consider the following: Over the last couple of years there have in general been: 500,000 job vanancies 2,250,000 unemployed people 6,500,000 under-employed people "Get a job" can only be a solution for a small minority whilst we have a government intent in shrinking the economy rather than growing it. Add to the mix a range of sanctions that can arbitrarily deprive claimants of four weeks' money and a hate-fuelled culture of abusing anyone who uses a food bank, and it's not altogether surprising that some people get so desperate they feel they've run out of options.[/p][/quote]for every raving right ..... there is a loony lefty .... i could quote a tracy simpson lunatic tweet about us needing more immigration recently but i won't because you probably are her (or associated with her) oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -15

8:03pm Wed 22 Jan 14

Seadog says...

Buzzz Lightyear and Andyjon12 slipped in while I was composing my own post. ABSOLUTELY!!! I couldn't agree more!
Buzzz Lightyear and Andyjon12 slipped in while I was composing my own post. ABSOLUTELY!!! I couldn't agree more! Seadog
  • Score: -8

9:14pm Wed 22 Jan 14

bolero says...

andyjon12 wrote:
There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now.

Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for.
Aiding and abetting?
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now. Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for.[/p][/quote]Aiding and abetting? bolero
  • Score: -14

9:54pm Wed 22 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

Bolero, no it's not aiding and abetting it is EMPATHY!
Bolero, no it's not aiding and abetting it is EMPATHY! andyjon12
  • Score: -5

10:17pm Wed 22 Jan 14

piaggio1 says...

I predict a riot.

Sooooooon
I predict a riot. Sooooooon piaggio1
  • Score: -3

11:11pm Wed 22 Jan 14

tonyfromitaly says...

Perhaps a repeal of the poor laws and bring back workhouses ?
Im sure Buzz will have an answer he is all knowing and dead clever.
Perhaps a repeal of the poor laws and bring back workhouses ? Im sure Buzz will have an answer he is all knowing and dead clever. tonyfromitaly
  • Score: -10

3:07am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

YorkPatrol wrote:
Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”??

Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve.

And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….
I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person.
[quote][p][bold]YorkPatrol[/bold] wrote: Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”?? Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve. And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….[/p][/quote]I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person. Magicman!
  • Score: 9

3:12am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

Proudlock wrote:
Just another reason to give food stamps instead of cash benefits. Just how many of these theives will have 42" tvs and sky at home yet 'can't afford' a loaf of bread...
Would you rather them not have any TV at all, and sit there of an evening in the candlelight singiny "my old Man was a dustman"??

I do not advocate using benefits money to go straight into Rupert Murdoch's back pocket (personally, I cannot morally justify paying for a Sky TV package only to still have adverts shown on the channels - if I am paying a subscription, the least you can do is get rid of the adverts), or to get some huge-**** TV, but to have no TV at all is a sign of absolute poverty in society today.
[quote][p][bold]Proudlock[/bold] wrote: Just another reason to give food stamps instead of cash benefits. Just how many of these theives will have 42" tvs and sky at home yet 'can't afford' a loaf of bread...[/p][/quote]Would you rather them not have any TV at all, and sit there of an evening in the candlelight singiny "my old Man was a dustman"?? I do not advocate using benefits money to go straight into Rupert Murdoch's back pocket (personally, I cannot morally justify paying for a Sky TV package only to still have adverts shown on the channels - if I am paying a subscription, the least you can do is get rid of the adverts), or to get some huge-**** TV, but to have no TV at all is a sign of absolute poverty in society today. Magicman!
  • Score: 4

3:20am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

Sillybillies wrote:
Buzzz Light-year wrote:
Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc
Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate.

There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear.

All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies.
Sadly, it is people like you who have ended up becoming the Prime Minister... absolutely uncaring sods with no empathy for anybody who is poor, because you view people as being poor as being poor because "they're just not working hard enough".

Newspaper and certain TV shows are used as propoganda to feed the small-minded the line as though all poor people are just being lazy but still want luxuries in life.

----

BUT, I do think if somebody pleads the "I stole to survive" story, that they should then be investigated to see if it is true. If those investigating find an undecorated house with no carpets, a normal TV (not some big shiny thing with a skybox under it), only a handful of lights working because they cannot afford new lightbulbs, and the house is cold because they have basic or no curtains and cannot afford the heating: then their story would check out. I would also add that if a person lives within York itself and are claiming they 'stole to survive' then they wouldn't have a car, as a car is a huge drain on finances - and if they're within the outer ring road boundaries then it is still easy enough to cycle to most places.
[quote][p][bold]Sillybillies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Buzzz Light-year[/bold] wrote: Blah blah cans of lager blah blah 40 fags blah b;ah sky TV blah blah junk food blah blah tattoos and piercings etc[/p][/quote]Another unintelligent contribution to a serious debate. There is no deprivation in this country that justifies being a criminal. What we have is greed for luxuries such as cigs, booze, the latest smart phone on contract, large screen TVs, top of the range TV and broadband packages, the latest designer gear. All these items are the rewards for getting a good and well paid job through hard work and application, they are not an entitlement. The age of living well on benefits is over, the hard working majority of voters support this and not even Labour will reverse the current policies.[/p][/quote]Sadly, it is people like you who have ended up becoming the Prime Minister... absolutely uncaring sods with no empathy for anybody who is poor, because you view people as being poor as being poor because "they're just not working hard enough". Newspaper and certain TV shows are used as propoganda to feed the small-minded the line as though all poor people are just being lazy but still want luxuries in life. ---- BUT, I do think if somebody pleads the "I stole to survive" story, that they should then be investigated to see if it is true. If those investigating find an undecorated house with no carpets, a normal TV (not some big shiny thing with a skybox under it), only a handful of lights working because they cannot afford new lightbulbs, and the house is cold because they have basic or no curtains and cannot afford the heating: then their story would check out. I would also add that if a person lives within York itself and are claiming they 'stole to survive' then they wouldn't have a car, as a car is a huge drain on finances - and if they're within the outer ring road boundaries then it is still easy enough to cycle to most places. Magicman!
  • Score: 7

3:22am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

Firedrake wrote:
As usual - huge generalizations on all sides. There are undoubtedly people who steal out of near-necessity and I am sympathetic ... without actually condoning the theft itself. Similarly, there are undoubtedly people who will use any excuse to justify what is in any case habitual behviour - some of whom may indeed have smart phones in their pockets and large screen TVs at home.

I also suspect that there may be people who starting nicking stuff out of perceived necessity and - sadly - developed a taste for it! Now, that would be a real tragedy ... but who would be to blame?

But it's so much easier to think in term's of "one size fits all" definitions of human behaviour, isn't it?
Despite people giving this negative votes, I think this is a reasonable comment.
[quote][p][bold]Firedrake[/bold] wrote: As usual - huge generalizations on all sides. There are undoubtedly people who steal out of near-necessity and I am sympathetic ... without actually condoning the theft itself. Similarly, there are undoubtedly people who will use any excuse to justify what is in any case habitual behviour - some of whom may indeed have smart phones in their pockets and large screen TVs at home. I also suspect that there may be people who starting nicking stuff out of perceived necessity and - sadly - developed a taste for it! Now, that would be a real tragedy ... but who would be to blame? But it's so much easier to think in term's of "one size fits all" definitions of human behaviour, isn't it?[/p][/quote]Despite people giving this negative votes, I think this is a reasonable comment. Magicman!
  • Score: 3

3:29am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

postie28 wrote:
I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital.
Exactly... the problem is a lot of contributors here soak up the tripe that is printed out in The Sun, the Daily Star, the Daily Mail, and shown on TV programmes as if they are facts. Somebody once said that if you get the propoganda just right and aimed at the right people then you can make an entire nation think and do just what you want them to - which is very true, as that person was Hitler: the undisputed master of propoganda.

What's worrying is our current government is trying to emulate Hitler in use of propoganda, so what else might they try and copy??
[quote][p][bold]postie28[/bold] wrote: I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital.[/p][/quote]Exactly... the problem is a lot of contributors here soak up the tripe that is printed out in The Sun, the Daily Star, the Daily Mail, and shown on TV programmes as if they are facts. Somebody once said that if you get the propoganda just right and aimed at the right people then you can make an entire nation think and do just what you want them to - which is very true, as that person was Hitler: the undisputed master of propoganda. What's worrying is our current government is trying to emulate Hitler in use of propoganda, so what else might they try and copy?? Magicman!
  • Score: 9

3:35am Thu 23 Jan 14

Magicman! says...

andyjon12 wrote:
There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now.

Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for.
Exactly... the very fact that shoplifting of foodstuffs has increased whilst overall shoplifting for the same period of time has decreased compared to the same time the previous year, goes to show that people are stealing necessities rather than luxuries - thereby making the point that it is a pverty-based outcome.
When you look at something called the Gatsby Curve, which measures social mobility, Britain is one of the very worst countries in the developed world for it (or should I say lack of it) - if you're born poo you are most likely to die poor, and our current elitist ruling class are determined to keep it that way. This happened in other countries, and it resultes in either riots or most of the ruling class being assasinated.
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: There can be no doubt that crimes such as shop lifting is a causal effect of poverty, like it or lump it this is how it is. To the elite in our society, social security (welfare) is their insurance policy against being targeted; this was the overriding reason why our social security system was introduced. By enlarge this system has served its purpose - that is until now. Unbelievably, our social security system is diminishing at an alarming rate; consequently, more and more vulnerable people are having to take food from shops without paying. These people are being criminalised through no real fault of their own; what are they supposed to do if they have no money coming in because of unfair populist policies? What's happening to our society's vulnerable is a national disgrace and I fear it will only get worse; the government and the baying right wing media are clearly to blame. They should be careful - they might just get what they wished for.[/p][/quote]Exactly... the very fact that shoplifting of foodstuffs has [b]increased[/b] whilst overall shoplifting for the same period of time has [b]decreased[/b] compared to the same time the previous year, goes to show that people are stealing necessities rather than luxuries - thereby making the point that it is a pverty-based outcome. When you look at something called the Gatsby Curve, which measures social mobility, Britain is one of the very worst countries in the developed world for it (or should I say lack of it) - if you're born poo you are most likely to die poor, and our current elitist ruling class are determined to keep it that way. This happened in other countries, and it resultes in either riots or most of the ruling class being assasinated. Magicman!
  • Score: 4

10:01am Thu 23 Jan 14

again says...

postie28 wrote:
I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital.
That is a good question.

It is part of the modern interpretation of neo-liberal, laissez-faire approach where it is necessary to tolerate the existence of a deprived underclass.

It is achieved by demonizing those unlucky enough to fall into that situation thereby allowing those luckier than them to evade any feeling of responsibility.

We are following the USA down that path, a country where the middle class is disappearing and for many, homelessness is only a 'couple of pay-checks away'.
[quote][p][bold]postie28[/bold] wrote: I fully agree that stealing is wrong and should be punished but where the hell does this notion come from that every single benefit claimant is a beer swilling , chain smoking layabout with a smartphone , widescreen tv, etc ?. people really need to open their eyes and see what is really happening to our most vulnerable people under this government instead of listening to government propaganda. god forbid any of you well off people with excellent jobs and good health fall on hard times, such as the poor woman in one of todays papers who had her benefits stopped and received a threatening letter from those miracle curers at atos demanding to know why she wasn't out looking for a job while she was lying in a coma in hospital.[/p][/quote]That is a good question. It is part of the modern interpretation of neo-liberal, laissez-faire approach where it is necessary to tolerate the existence of a deprived underclass. It is achieved by demonizing those unlucky enough to fall into that situation thereby allowing those luckier than them to evade any feeling of responsibility. We are following the USA down that path, a country where the middle class is disappearing and for many, homelessness is only a 'couple of pay-checks away'. again
  • Score: 5

10:44am Thu 23 Jan 14

Zetkin says...

No saveloy I am not Coun Simpson-Laing nor am I associated with her.

Sorry to disappoint.
No saveloy I am not Coun Simpson-Laing nor am I associated with her. Sorry to disappoint. Zetkin
  • Score: 0

11:11am Thu 23 Jan 14

sounds weird but says...

It would be interesting to see a bit more detail behind the assumptions made - what is the income and expenses of the shoplifters ie where does thier income come from, benefits, working and proportion of each. Next, where is the money being spent. then we will know what is actually going on here.

But I image we would not be able to analyse this issue in this way. until then lots more generalisation, personal opinions to propell us in the wrong direction and not dealing with this issue sensibly I guess...
It would be interesting to see a bit more detail behind the assumptions made - what is the income and expenses of the shoplifters ie where does thier income come from, benefits, working and proportion of each. Next, where is the money being spent. then we will know what is actually going on here. But I image we would not be able to analyse this issue in this way. until then lots more generalisation, personal opinions to propell us in the wrong direction and not dealing with this issue sensibly I guess... sounds weird but
  • Score: 2

3:00pm Thu 23 Jan 14

piaggio1 says...

see the magic thumbs down mob have bin busy.
see the magic thumbs down mob have bin busy. piaggio1
  • Score: 0

3:39pm Thu 23 Jan 14

Sillybillies says...

tonyfromitaly wrote:
Perhaps a repeal of the poor laws and bring back workhouses ?
Im sure Buzz will have an answer he is all knowing and dead clever.
It was the Poor Laws that brought in the workhouses, and maybe they weren't such a bad idea after all. Think how much power could be generated on all the treadmills. What is for sure is that the post WWII has not worked. It has created a class of scroungers who have hitherto lived well whilst avoiding work at all costs. The great tragedy is that there are those in our society who are poor and needy for genuine reasons, who are being tarred with the same brush. This is would be a good idea -

BUT, I do think if somebody pleads the "I stole to survive" story, that they should then be investigated to see if it is true. If those investigating find an undecorated house with no carpets, a normal TV (not some big shiny thing with a skybox under it), only a handful of lights working because they cannot afford new lightbulbs, and the house is cold because they have basic or no curtains and cannot afford the heating: then their story would check out.


If the police were doing their job properly, they would be automatically using their powers to search the homes of persons arrested for theft, and reporting to the courts the home circumstances of shoplifters as suggested by Magicman.
[quote][p][bold]tonyfromitaly[/bold] wrote: Perhaps a repeal of the poor laws and bring back workhouses ? Im sure Buzz will have an answer he is all knowing and dead clever.[/p][/quote]It was the Poor Laws that brought in the workhouses, and maybe they weren't such a bad idea after all. Think how much power could be generated on all the treadmills. What is for sure is that the post WWII has not worked. It has created a class of scroungers who have hitherto lived well whilst avoiding work at all costs. The great tragedy is that there are those in our society who are poor and needy for genuine reasons, who are being tarred with the same brush. This is would be a good idea - [quote]BUT, I do think if somebody pleads the "I stole to survive" story, that they should then be investigated to see if it is true. If those investigating find an undecorated house with no carpets, a normal TV (not some big shiny thing with a skybox under it), only a handful of lights working because they cannot afford new lightbulbs, and the house is cold because they have basic or no curtains and cannot afford the heating: then their story would check out.[/quote] If the police were doing their job properly, they would be automatically using their powers to search the homes of persons arrested for theft, and reporting to the courts the home circumstances of shoplifters as suggested by Magicman. Sillybillies
  • Score: 2

3:41pm Thu 23 Jan 14

Sillybillies says...

I meant -

What is for sure is that the post WWII welfare system has not worked. It has created a class of scroungers who have hitherto lived well whilst avoiding work at all costs. The great tragedy is that there are those in our society who are poor and needy for genuine reasons, who are being tarred with the same brush. This is would be a good idea - ..........
I meant - What is for sure is that the post WWII welfare system has not worked. It has created a class of scroungers who have hitherto lived well whilst avoiding work at all costs. The great tragedy is that there are those in our society who are poor and needy for genuine reasons, who are being tarred with the same brush. This is would be a good idea - .......... Sillybillies
  • Score: 1

4:10pm Thu 23 Jan 14

Ichabod76 says...

Magicman! wrote:
YorkPatrol wrote:
Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”??

Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve.

And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….
I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person.
it's the government that would have to pay the statutory redundancy payment not the bankrupted company, and I assume this man would be claiming child benefit ? so not penniless
if he still doesn't have enough money to survive, there are foodbanks
there is no need to steal !

Magicman! wrote:

but to have no TV at all is a sign of absolute poverty in society today.


I would say having no food to eat or a place to live is a sign of absolute poverty. I could happily live without a TV

but the left will have you believe not having luxury items like a TV's or mobile phones or even washing machines is a sign of poverty

and as for comparing the government to Hitler you lose by default
(Godwin's law)
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]YorkPatrol[/bold] wrote: Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”?? Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve. And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….[/p][/quote]I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person.[/p][/quote]it's the government that would have to pay the statutory redundancy payment not the bankrupted company, and I assume this man would be claiming child benefit ? so not penniless if he still doesn't have enough money to survive, there are foodbanks there is no need to steal ! [quote][p]Magicman! wrote: but to have no TV at all is a sign of absolute poverty in society today.[/p][/quote] I would say having no food to eat or a place to live is a sign of absolute poverty. I could happily live without a TV but the left will have you believe not having luxury items like a TV's or mobile phones or even washing machines is a sign of poverty and as for comparing the government to Hitler you lose by default (Godwin's law) Ichabod76
  • Score: 1

6:53pm Thu 23 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

This article has generated in my opinion some very misinformed, stereotypical and bigoted views. It would seem that our society has more than its fare share of hate fueled morons who seem only too happy to kick vulnerable people when they are already down. If there is no letup, then it'll surely lead to further alienation and marginalisation of working class people; this is likely to result in reduced political representation, a decline in social cohesion, and an increase in social disorder. In short, more and more working class people will view the government and the state as being illegitimate. The rise in people shoplifting for food is a good example of this kind of shortsighted and dangerous populist way of governing.
This article has generated in my opinion some very misinformed, stereotypical and bigoted views. It would seem that our society has more than its fare share of hate fueled morons who seem only too happy to kick vulnerable people when they are already down. If there is no letup, then it'll surely lead to further alienation and marginalisation of working class people; this is likely to result in reduced political representation, a decline in social cohesion, and an increase in social disorder. In short, more and more working class people will view the government and the state as being illegitimate. The rise in people shoplifting for food is a good example of this kind of shortsighted and dangerous populist way of governing. andyjon12
  • Score: 0

7:15pm Thu 23 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

Zetkin wrote:
No saveloy I am not Coun Simpson-Laing nor am I associated with her.

Sorry to disappoint.
not disappointed in the slightest, cos local politicians are not known for telling the truth so you could actually be telling porkies!

but yeah its all there on these low lifes face books for everyone to see, these people are that stupid they don't even set their pages to private! one describes himself as a criminal, they both pose as gangsters, always out drinking, one even brags about his brand new trainers that he as just acquired with photographic evidence of his 10 new pairs of trainers 1 photo of £1000 scattered on the floor all this whilst working as a 24/7 dole dosser, part time jsa (their description not mine) so the only theiving going on is by thieves not people who are desperate, not when anyone who is actually desperate can go to a food bank... you loony lefties are so naive and gullible!!

but yeah desperation must have drove them to threatening people with knives!

dole scroungers do exist! they are not a figment of the rights imagination!
[quote][p][bold]Zetkin[/bold] wrote: No saveloy I am not Coun Simpson-Laing nor am I associated with her. Sorry to disappoint.[/p][/quote]not disappointed in the slightest, cos local politicians are not known for telling the truth so you could actually be telling porkies! but yeah its all there on these low lifes face books for everyone to see, these people are that stupid they don't even set their pages to private! one describes himself as a criminal, they both pose as gangsters, always out drinking, one even brags about his brand new trainers that he as just acquired with photographic evidence of his 10 new pairs of trainers 1 photo of £1000 scattered on the floor all this whilst working as a 24/7 dole dosser, part time jsa (their description not mine) so the only theiving going on is by thieves not people who are desperate, not when anyone who is actually desperate can go to a food bank... you loony lefties are so naive and gullible!! but yeah desperation must have drove them to threatening people with knives! dole scroungers do exist! they are not a figment of the rights imagination! oi oi savaloy
  • Score: 4

7:18pm Thu 23 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

andyjon12 wrote:
This article has generated in my opinion some very misinformed, stereotypical and bigoted views. It would seem that our society has more than its fare share of hate fueled morons who seem only too happy to kick vulnerable people when they are already down. If there is no letup, then it'll surely lead to further alienation and marginalisation of working class people; this is likely to result in reduced political representation, a decline in social cohesion, and an increase in social disorder. In short, more and more working class people will view the government and the state as being illegitimate. The rise in people shoplifting for food is a good example of this kind of shortsighted and dangerous populist way of governing.
blinkered fool.. thieves are theives at the end of the day... got no money go to the food bank , poverty is a left wing myth
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: This article has generated in my opinion some very misinformed, stereotypical and bigoted views. It would seem that our society has more than its fare share of hate fueled morons who seem only too happy to kick vulnerable people when they are already down. If there is no letup, then it'll surely lead to further alienation and marginalisation of working class people; this is likely to result in reduced political representation, a decline in social cohesion, and an increase in social disorder. In short, more and more working class people will view the government and the state as being illegitimate. The rise in people shoplifting for food is a good example of this kind of shortsighted and dangerous populist way of governing.[/p][/quote]blinkered fool.. thieves are theives at the end of the day... got no money go to the food bank , poverty is a left wing myth oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -5

8:14pm Thu 23 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

Oi oi savaloy, this is a typical response from an ignorant conservative; let's refuse to accept that the problem of poverty even exists, let alone it being of public concern. Therefore, the problem (poverty) doesn't need addressing. Wonderful!
Oi oi savaloy, this is a typical response from an ignorant conservative; let's refuse to accept that the problem of poverty even exists, let alone it being of public concern. Therefore, the problem (poverty) doesn't need addressing. Wonderful! andyjon12
  • Score: -2

9:54pm Thu 23 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

andyjon12 wrote:
Oi oi savaloy, this is a typical response from an ignorant conservative; let's refuse to accept that the problem of poverty even exists, let alone it being of public concern. Therefore, the problem (poverty) doesn't need addressing. Wonderful!
here we go again somebody pretending they know who somebody else votes for! do i even vote? lets look at it this we you blinkerd fool, i don't walk around with blinkers on and my head in the sand like you loony lot! i live and work in the real world, been made redundant under the tories, been made redundant under the labour tories!! always got up off of my backside and made sure there was a roof over my families heads and food on the table ..... never gone out thieving never gone out scrounging, unlike you idiots i know that there are 2 types of people on benefits, the ones who will be on it a short while who will pick themselves up and go get another job and then we have the scroungers who will scream and shout poverty and maybe even text or email it from their iPhones !! whilst puffing on a fag!! knocking back a carlsberg !!! poverty my arse! just a loony lefty myth... wake up take your head out of your backside and smell the coffee whilst watching the jeremy kyle generation that phoney blair created with his family tax credit system , that rewarded slackers like mike philpot and karen mathews etc etc etc ( the list of them people is endless)
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Oi oi savaloy, this is a typical response from an ignorant conservative; let's refuse to accept that the problem of poverty even exists, let alone it being of public concern. Therefore, the problem (poverty) doesn't need addressing. Wonderful![/p][/quote]here we go again somebody pretending they know who somebody else votes for! do i even vote? lets look at it this we you blinkerd fool, i don't walk around with blinkers on and my head in the sand like you loony lot! i live and work in the real world, been made redundant under the tories, been made redundant under the labour tories!! always got up off of my backside and made sure there was a roof over my families heads and food on the table ..... never gone out thieving never gone out scrounging, unlike you idiots i know that there are 2 types of people on benefits, the ones who will be on it a short while who will pick themselves up and go get another job and then we have the scroungers who will scream and shout poverty and maybe even text or email it from their iPhones !! whilst puffing on a fag!! knocking back a carlsberg !!! poverty my arse! just a loony lefty myth... wake up take your head out of your backside and smell the coffee whilst watching the jeremy kyle generation that phoney blair created with his family tax credit system , that rewarded slackers like mike philpot and karen mathews etc etc etc ( the list of them people is endless) oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -4

10:21pm Thu 23 Jan 14

browbeaten says...

Benefit street about sums the problem up. Much hand wringing from our touchy feely left wingers. Theft is theft.
Benefit street about sums the problem up. Much hand wringing from our touchy feely left wingers. Theft is theft. browbeaten
  • Score: 0

10:33pm Thu 23 Jan 14

andyjon12 says...

Oi oi savaloy. I made no reference whatsoever to which way you vote. However, considering your last couple of hate fueled "ramblings", I think that it's reasonable to assume that you are indeed a conservative - albeit a misinformed and poorly educated one. Your knowledge in the subject matter, in my opinion, is very poor. It's a pity that people like you can't be bothered to read-up on the issues regarding the link between poverty and crime; you would then know the facts, namely that rising crime levels are a direct cause of poverty and deprivation. You would also learn that the main contributing factor in all of this is the unchecked spread of inequalities.
Oi oi savaloy. I made no reference whatsoever to which way you vote. However, considering your last couple of hate fueled "ramblings", I think that it's reasonable to assume that you are indeed a conservative - albeit a misinformed and poorly educated one. Your knowledge in the subject matter, in my opinion, is very poor. It's a pity that people like you can't be bothered to read-up on the issues regarding the link between poverty and crime; you would then know the facts, namely that rising crime levels are a direct cause of poverty and deprivation. You would also learn that the main contributing factor in all of this is the unchecked spread of inequalities. andyjon12
  • Score: -1

11:00pm Thu 23 Jan 14

oi oi savaloy says...

andyjon12 wrote:
Oi oi savaloy. I made no reference whatsoever to which way you vote. However, considering your last couple of hate fueled "ramblings", I think that it's reasonable to assume that you are indeed a conservative - albeit a misinformed and poorly educated one. Your knowledge in the subject matter, in my opinion, is very poor. It's a pity that people like you can't be bothered to read-up on the issues regarding the link between poverty and crime; you would then know the facts, namely that rising crime levels are a direct cause of poverty and deprivation. You would also learn that the main contributing factor in all of this is the unchecked spread of inequalities.
and here we go again , i think your knowledge is very poor in my opinion, i think you are indeed a loony lefty, i think you need to get out with your blinkers removed and go look in the real world ... i put it to you that you talk absolute twaddle .... for your information palio i voted labour for the very first time in 1979 ... i also joined the swp in the very early 80's... i am also a fully paid up unite union member (joined a union in 1978)i then carried on voting labour right till 2001.... and it was then that i realised that Hugh Bayley and the Phoney Blair labour/tory party were the true enemy to this country and this city ... so don't you try telling me you know what my education or my affiliation is! poverty and deprivation???? what an absolute pile of utter twaddle...! you really are a bigger blinkered fool than i thought in the first place .... you can get your palio's thumbing me down all you want over night if you want... this is the last i am saying on this .. so come back on and ASSUME some more.. at the end of the day you know nothing, you just probably read it all because you 'read-up' on the issues, instead of getting out there and taking it all in!!
[quote][p][bold]andyjon12[/bold] wrote: Oi oi savaloy. I made no reference whatsoever to which way you vote. However, considering your last couple of hate fueled "ramblings", I think that it's reasonable to assume that you are indeed a conservative - albeit a misinformed and poorly educated one. Your knowledge in the subject matter, in my opinion, is very poor. It's a pity that people like you can't be bothered to read-up on the issues regarding the link between poverty and crime; you would then know the facts, namely that rising crime levels are a direct cause of poverty and deprivation. You would also learn that the main contributing factor in all of this is the unchecked spread of inequalities.[/p][/quote]and here we go again , i think your knowledge is very poor in my opinion, i think you are indeed a loony lefty, i think you need to get out with your blinkers removed and go look in the real world ... i put it to you that you talk absolute twaddle .... for your information palio i voted labour for the very first time in 1979 ... i also joined the swp in the very early 80's... i am also a fully paid up unite union member (joined a union in 1978)i then carried on voting labour right till 2001.... and it was then that i realised that Hugh Bayley and the Phoney Blair labour/tory party were the true enemy to this country and this city ... so don't you try telling me you know what my education or my affiliation is! poverty and deprivation???? what an absolute pile of utter twaddle...! you really are a bigger blinkered fool than i thought in the first place .... you can get your palio's thumbing me down all you want over night if you want... this is the last i am saying on this .. so come back on and ASSUME some more.. at the end of the day you know nothing, you just probably read it all because you 'read-up' on the issues, instead of getting out there and taking it all in!! oi oi savaloy
  • Score: -1

11:20am Fri 24 Jan 14

YorkPatrol says...

Magicman! wrote:
YorkPatrol wrote: Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”?? Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve. And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….
I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person.
If in your example he resorts to stealing he becomes a criminal therefore should be locked up and his kids taken away. Along with the criminal activity he would be clearly setting the wrong example to his two children. My suggestion would be to sell one of the kids Xbox’s and do a weekly shop ensuring to buy “value” products, paying particular attention to frozen and long shelve life items.

I would also question whether or not bacon would be the right food choice to seal with its high salt, nitrate and monounsaturated fat content it’s probably not appropriate as part of a child diet and if he didn’t also steal some butter and a choice condiment such as “brown sauce” the sandwiches would be rather dry – A crime in it’s own right
[quote][p][bold]Magicman![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]YorkPatrol[/bold] wrote: Where is the actual evidence that these criminals were sealing to “survive”?? Only pure scum steal then use the old “survival” nonsense in a lame sympathy vote. You can guarantee these low life’s are sealing as a result of a drug and booze filled lifestyle or not prepared to give up luxury’s they can’t afford and don’t deserve. And don’t even get me started on that imbecile Father Jim Tones….[/p][/quote]I have never responded to any of your posts before now, because they are almost always bigoted against one type of person or another... but if you have absolutely no compassion for, as an example, a single father of 2 or more kids who might have just been made redundant by a company that went bankrupt and so couldn't give out a final salary or severance payment and so leaving him penniless, so that he steals a loaf of bread and some bacon to feed his kids - then you are a vile excuse for a human life, and such that I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting you in person.[/p][/quote]If in your example he resorts to stealing he becomes a criminal therefore should be locked up and his kids taken away. Along with the criminal activity he would be clearly setting the wrong example to his two children. My suggestion would be to sell one of the kids Xbox’s and do a weekly shop ensuring to buy “value” products, paying particular attention to frozen and long shelve life items. I would also question whether or not bacon would be the right food choice to seal with its high salt, nitrate and monounsaturated fat content it’s probably not appropriate as part of a child diet and if he didn’t also steal some butter and a choice condiment such as “brown sauce” the sandwiches would be rather dry – A crime in it’s own right YorkPatrol
  • Score: -3

9:17am Sun 26 Jan 14

browbeaten says...

What a load of left wing rubbish. So are people on benifits thieves. No. Does being on benifits justify thieving. No. Have benefits been done away with. No. These left wing propaganda merchants sould hang there heads in shame effectively stigmatising claimants as potential thieves as soon as they walk in to a shop.
What a load of left wing rubbish. So are people on benifits thieves. No. Does being on benifits justify thieving. No. Have benefits been done away with. No. These left wing propaganda merchants sould hang there heads in shame effectively stigmatising claimants as potential thieves as soon as they walk in to a shop. browbeaten
  • Score: 0

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