Leicester rejects Richard III meeting (From York Press)
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Leicester rejects meeting with York over burial of Richard III
9:27am Thursday 14th March 2013 in News
By Mark Stead, Political Reporter
Richard III
CIVIC leaders in Leicester have snubbed a request to meet their York counterparts to resolve the argument over where Richard III’s remains should be buried.
Justice Minister Jeremy Wright said this week he would broker a summit between the cities to discuss the monarch’s re-interment, after his bones were discovered during an excavation by the University of Leicester.
York’s city bosses are now preparing for such a meeting, but Leicester’s city mayor Sir Peter Soulsby yesterday said it would be pointless. He said: “I will always be pleased to discuss with York how we can co-operate to tell the story of Richard and the monumental events of 1485 (the Battle of Bosworth Field, where Richard died).
“However, there would be no purpose whatsoever in any meeting to discuss the re-interment. That matter is entirely settled.”
The University of Leicester said it was “happy to meet with colleagues from York to explain our position” and a Leicester City Council spokesman said: “There is no disagreement – the remains of the king will be buried in Leicester Cathedral in accordance with the terms of the (exhumation) licence.”
City of York Council chief executive Kersten England has agreed to form a delegation to meet Leicester representatives. Responding to Leicester’s statements yesterday, she said: “Given the Ministry of Justice is facilitating this meeting and an agenda has yet to be set, I will be leading the York delegation to work towards a constructive resolution which respects the living wishes of the man and honours the monarch.”
York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York. Talking seriously and with an open mind is the way to calm things.”
Julian Sturdy, York Outer MP, said the licence allowed Leicester to “do the honourable thing” and allow Richard to be buried in York “in accordance with his wishes”. He said: “I will be writing to ask that the Ministry of Justice does all it can to ensure a meeting does go ahead.”
The university of Leicester will decide Richard’s final resting place, with its choice being Leicester Cathedral, but campaigners – supported by Richard’s descendants – say the last Yorkist king should be buried in York.
Meanwhile, Leicester Cathedral has revealed a design brief for Richard’s final resting place, saying it preferred “a place of simple dignity” rather than a grand memorial. The proposal of a ledger stone to mark the burial place goes against campaign group The Richard III Society’s suggestion of a raised tomb.
Comments(63)
CHISSY1
says...
9:56am Thu 14 Mar 13
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moongrass
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10:08am Thu 14 Mar 13
RedCyanNat
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10:13am Thu 14 Mar 13
Podlet
says...
10:24am Thu 14 Mar 13
CHISSY1 wrote:Seconded
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airporttaxi
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10:28am Thu 14 Mar 13
yorkiemum
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10:37am Thu 14 Mar 13
Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!
CHISSY1 wrote:Seconded
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Oncebitten
says...
10:42am Thu 14 Mar 13
yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....
Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!
CHISSY1 wrote:Seconded
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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eeoodares
says...
10:45am Thu 14 Mar 13
echochamber
says...
10:46am Thu 14 Mar 13
And Mark Stead: King Richard III's offspring all died childless, therefore has no 'descendants'. Is it that you are too stupid to understand this, or are you deliberately setting out to mislead your readers?
eeoodares
says...
10:46am Thu 14 Mar 13
Trespar Zagenstuz
says...
10:49am Thu 14 Mar 13
Bosworth Field was obviously not to be the end of hostilities......
Jeff_li
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10:56am Thu 14 Mar 13
pedalling paul
says...
11:03am Thu 14 Mar 13
yyyyy....?
ie Why, why,,.........
Jazzper
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11:04am Thu 14 Mar 13
Stroppiness
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11:09am Thu 14 Mar 13
Oncebitten wrote:Fifthed!!!
yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!CHISSY1 wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSeconded
York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York.
Get a grip man. The only people "inflaming passions in York" are you, Sturdy and A&E who cannot appear to understand that in these economic times THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND SPEND MONEY ON!!!!
NoMorePlease
says...
11:13am Thu 14 Mar 13
Not again. Richard left NO wishes that can be referenced. How many times is this myth going to be trotted out by the brain-deads who keep doing it
clairemw
says...
11:17am Thu 14 Mar 13
Stroppiness wrote:sixthed..lol....ZZZZ
Oncebitten wrote:Fifthed!!!
yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!CHISSY1 wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSeconded
York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York.
Get a grip man. The only people "inflaming passions in York" are you, Sturdy and A&E who cannot appear to understand that in these economic times THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND SPEND MONEY ON!!!!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :P
Buzz Light-year
says...
11:24am Thu 14 Mar 13
clairemw wrote:Seventhed!
Stroppiness wrote:sixthed..lol....ZZZZ
Oncebitten wrote:Fifthed!!!
yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!CHISSY1 wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSeconded
York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York.
Get a grip man. The only people "inflaming passions in York" are you, Sturdy and A&E who cannot appear to understand that in these economic times THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND SPEND MONEY ON!!!!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :P
There hasn't been a more tedious and pointless ongoing story than this ever.
CaroleBaines
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11:25am Thu 14 Mar 13
Capt. Dobie
says...
11:47am Thu 14 Mar 13
twoleftfeet
says...
11:59am Thu 14 Mar 13
Buzz Light-year wrote:Eighthed!
clairemw wrote:Seventhed! There hasn't been a more tedious and pointless ongoing story than this ever.Stroppiness wrote:sixthed..lol....ZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :POncebitten wrote:Fifthed!!! York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York. Get a grip man. The only people "inflaming passions in York" are you, Sturdy and A&E who cannot appear to understand that in these economic times THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND SPEND MONEY ON!!!!yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!CHISSY1 wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSeconded
More important things to worry about than a deceased King.
Pedro
says...
12:11pm Thu 14 Mar 13
matroom
says...
12:13pm Thu 14 Mar 13
twoleftfeet wrote:Ninthed zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Buzz Light-year wrote:Eighthed! More important things to worry about than a deceased King.clairemw wrote:Seventhed! There hasn't been a more tedious and pointless ongoing story than this ever.Stroppiness wrote:sixthed..lol....ZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :POncebitten wrote:Fifthed!!! York Central MP Hugh Bayley will ask Mr Wright to intervene, and said: “Leicester is refusing to recognise it is not the only place with a strong interest in Richard III, and its unwillingness to discuss this is inflaming passions in York. Get a grip man. The only people "inflaming passions in York" are you, Sturdy and A&E who cannot appear to understand that in these economic times THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND SPEND MONEY ON!!!!yorkiemum wrote:Fourthed.....Podlet wrote:Thirded???? fed up of hearing about this!!!!CHISSY1 wrote: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSeconded
sheps lad
says...
12:38pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Bo Jolly
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1:35pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Perhaps York should be looking to defend its own archaeology before campaigning to obtain Leicester's!
TheTruthHurts
says...
1:36pm Thu 14 Mar 13
'
And also there seems to be a number of 'no longer accepting comments on this article'. Why not?
myselby
says...
2:33pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect
go get em !
Sillybillies
says...
3:34pm Thu 14 Mar 13
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/38772
Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
Pete the Brickie
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3:40pm Thu 14 Mar 13
airporttaxi
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3:43pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Woody G Mellor
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4:11pm Thu 14 Mar 13
For sooth. Nay more need be said.
Stroppiness
says...
4:22pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:Lifelong Labour voter - yes. Communist, definately not. I am also a lifelong royalist and therefore have a lot of time for the monarchy.
Despite the blather from our resident communists and other assorted left wingers, 25,384 have signed the epetition that Richard be laid to rest in York. http://epetitions.di rect.gov.uk/petition s/38772 Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
As pointed out yesterday, a petition with a little over 25000 means that less than 25% of York's population care enough to put their name down so the "majority" of residents either don't want the remains or don't care either way.
What I do not have time for is the unseemly squabble over the remains of one of our kings, that certain people, you included, appear to be engaging in. His remains were found in Leicester where he was buried 100s of years ago. His remains should stay there.
As numerous people have posted on various guises of this story, there is NO documentary evidence that he wished to be buried here and he has no 'descendants' - despite this, people are trotting out the exact opposite as if it were fact, when it is FICTION!!!!
And before the "we don't want to believe what your saying" brigade bring up the issue of dna, it was mitochondrial DNA that was tested which is passed down thru' the maternal line. Therefore the guy whose DNA was tested (and whose family tree can be traced back 100s of years), is not a descendant of Richard III - he is a very distant relative of Richard's mother!
Buzz Light-year
says...
4:24pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Stroppiness
says...
4:28pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Caecilius
says...
4:44pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:As Richard himself was a Northamptonshire import and Duke of Gloucester, not to mention Chief Steward and Chamberlain of Wales, Chief Justice of North Wales and High Sheriff of Cumbria, it's particularly unreasonable in this context to criticise the Dean of York simply because she previously held a job in Leicester.
Despite the blather from our resident communists and other assorted left wingers, 25,384 have signed the epetition that Richard be laid to rest in York.
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/38772
Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
You think Richard was a Yorkshireman? He wasn't. He spent some years of his childhood and youth here, he worked here (sometimes) and, through his wife (who was born at Warwick, incidentally, not in Yorkshire), he inherited the Neville support in the north. But, like some modern business tycoon, he also had other responsibilities, estates and residences elsewhere. York has no special claim on him, as there's no evidence he actually expressed the wish to be buried here. Not that I'm suggesting Leicester has a particularly good claim, either. Sheriff Hutton, Fotheringhay or, arguably, Westminster Abbey (alongside his wife) would all be more appropriate. However, as others have said, this isn't really about Richard but about tourist income.
Caecilius
says...
4:44pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:As Richard himself was a Northamptonshire import and Duke of Gloucester, not to mention Chief Steward and Chamberlain of Wales, Chief Justice of North Wales and High Sheriff of Cumbria, it's particularly unreasonable in this context to criticise the Dean of York simply because she previously held a job in Leicester.
Despite the blather from our resident communists and other assorted left wingers, 25,384 have signed the epetition that Richard be laid to rest in York.
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/38772
Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
You think Richard was a Yorkshireman? He wasn't. He spent some years of his childhood and youth here, he worked here (sometimes) and, through his wife (who was born at Warwick, incidentally, not in Yorkshire), he inherited the Neville support in the north. But, like some modern business tycoon, he also had other responsibilities, estates and residences elsewhere. York has no special claim on him, as there's no evidence he actually expressed the wish to be buried here. Not that I'm suggesting Leicester has a particularly good claim, either. Sheriff Hutton, Fotheringhay or, arguably, Westminster Abbey (alongside his wife) would all be more appropriate. However, as others have said, this isn't really about Richard but about tourist income.
Woody G Mellor
says...
4:45pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Stroppiness wrote:Calm down love! Jeez.
Sillybillies wrote:Lifelong Labour voter - yes. Communist, definately not. I am also a lifelong royalist and therefore have a lot of time for the monarchy.
Despite the blather from our resident communists and other assorted left wingers, 25,384 have signed the epetition that Richard be laid to rest in York. http://epetitions.di rect.gov.uk/petition s/38772 Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
As pointed out yesterday, a petition with a little over 25000 means that less than 25% of York's population care enough to put their name down so the "majority" of residents either don't want the remains or don't care either way.
What I do not have time for is the unseemly squabble over the remains of one of our kings, that certain people, you included, appear to be engaging in. His remains were found in Leicester where he was buried 100s of years ago. His remains should stay there.
As numerous people have posted on various guises of this story, there is NO documentary evidence that he wished to be buried here and he has no 'descendants' - despite this, people are trotting out the exact opposite as if it were fact, when it is FICTION!!!!
And before the "we don't want to believe what your saying" brigade bring up the issue of dna, it was mitochondrial DNA that was tested which is passed down thru' the maternal line. Therefore the guy whose DNA was tested (and whose family tree can be traced back 100s of years), is not a descendant of Richard III - he is a very distant relative of Richard's mother!
TheTruthHurts
says...
4:45pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Comments are closed on this article.
Trespar Zagenstuz
says...
5:45pm Thu 14 Mar 13
TheTruthHurts wrote:That's a pity. I wanted to add something.
Comments are closed on this article.
Oh well, never mind....
Woody G Mellor
says...
7:25pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Trespar Zagenstuz wrote:Drat! Me too.
TheTruthHurts wrote:That's a pity. I wanted to add something.
Comments are closed on this article.
Oh well, never mind....
Trespar Zagenstuz
says...
8:17pm Thu 14 Mar 13
York has plenty of history, but no real claim to his body. Leicester's only claim, quite feasibly, is that he died near there.
Sherriff Hutton ( which is near to, but not actually York), has a tenuous claim via the Middleham connection; but what a delight it would be to find the tomb of a King of England, and a most significant one, in a church of otherwise minor significance?
Put Sherriff Hutton on the map.....
yorkiemum
says...
8:22pm Thu 14 Mar 13
mallory
says...
8:27pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Woody G Mellor wrote:Just in the interests in keeping the facts straight, the signatories of the e-petition are far more widespread that just York.
A handful of negative comments on here. Over 25,000 cultured, proud to be York voted on the e-petition.
For sooth. Nay more need be said.
In fact, perhaps as little as a 1/4 are actually from York, the rest coming from all corners of the UK.
See for yourself here: http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/api/peti
tions/38772.json
This is a list of postcodes and signatories from that postcode for 'that' petition..
Buzz Light-year
says...
8:35pm Thu 14 Mar 13
yorkiemum wrote:You're right.
I am proud to be a Yorkie in fact a born and bred Yorkie but I can think of more important things to think of than a load of old bones. I have not signed the petition and do not intend to but that certainly does not make me communist or a left winger!! Why should it
Maybe Sillybillies is a bit bemused by all this.
stopatred
says...
8:54pm Thu 14 Mar 13
northern93
says...
9:00pm Thu 14 Mar 13
I think Leicester should at least involve themselves in discussions and hear the side of other people who have opinions! It just seems stubborn, selfish and childish to close the doors to reason when so many people have shown their interest! Even if they are not going to budge on their decision they should be taking suitable suggestions and working with the York delegates to find a reasoned middle-ground!
History is supposed to be accessible to everybody not just a select few! Let everybody have their say!
Gerry2
says...
10:44pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Yorkie-Clifton
says...
10:50pm Thu 14 Mar 13
Gerry2 wrote:Thank you Gerry2 -- I do hope you have shamed the ignorant and childish ZZZZZZ
Aside from all these ZZZZ top, anti-royalists with no sense of history OR proportion, why does Leicester get to bury him (again) ? They didn't look after him properly the first time, and is that Leicseter's only reason for keeping him, "Well he, died near here..." and "Well we dug him up so we're keeping him...." It strikes me he belongs in York where he had a much stronger association. Too simple, I expect, for the the residents of Leicester to comprehend. Does anyone there still comprehend English ?
Maybe they are so pathetic that is all they can contribute .
twoleftfeet
says...
9:36am Fri 15 Mar 13
Yorkie-Clifton wrote:If you can provide evidence that he wanted to buried in York then fine. I agree then he should be buried here. There are a lot of people assuming that he wanted to buried here when in truth we will never know.
Gerry2 wrote: Aside from all these ZZZZ top, anti-royalists with no sense of history OR proportion, why does Leicester get to bury him (again) ? They didn't look after him properly the first time, and is that Leicseter's only reason for keeping him, "Well he, died near here..." and "Well we dug him up so we're keeping him...." It strikes me he belongs in York where he had a much stronger association. Too simple, I expect, for the the residents of Leicester to comprehend. Does anyone there still comprehend English ?Thank you Gerry2 -- I do hope you have shamed the ignorant and childish ZZZZZZ Maybe they are so pathetic that is all they can contribute .
There are far more pressing issues our MP's should be debating about rather than the burial place of a King.
Firedrake
says...
9:40am Fri 15 Mar 13
yorkiemum
says...
9:58am Fri 15 Mar 13
Soooooooooo funny
Capt. Dobie
says...
10:08am Fri 15 Mar 13
stopatred wrote:Tee Hee...Pun intended?!
cant be much to do in the press office if they are digging this up again and again.
CHISSY1
says...
10:10am Fri 15 Mar 13
Yorkie-Clifton wrote:"Ignorant and childish"?.Well if that is correct,no words can describe your pathetic pointless comments,get a life please.
Gerry2 wrote:Thank you Gerry2 -- I do hope you have shamed the ignorant and childish ZZZZZZ
Aside from all these ZZZZ top, anti-royalists with no sense of history OR proportion, why does Leicester get to bury him (again) ? They didn't look after him properly the first time, and is that Leicseter's only reason for keeping him, "Well he, died near here..." and "Well we dug him up so we're keeping him...." It strikes me he belongs in York where he had a much stronger association. Too simple, I expect, for the the residents of Leicester to comprehend. Does anyone there still comprehend English ?
Maybe they are so pathetic that is all they can contribute .
Podlet
says...
10:23am Fri 15 Mar 13
A few things will bug me, once in the while, but I'm pretty chilled about life in general.
However, I do get frustrated with people pointing out the motes of others when they do nothing about their own logs.
Hence I denounce the accusations of purility and ignorance.
airporttaxi
says...
10:43am Fri 15 Mar 13
http://www.yorkpress
.co.uk/news/10292501
.Cuts_jeopardise_Yor
k_s_heritage__expert
s_warn/
Sillybillies
says...
12:16pm Fri 15 Mar 13
Too simple, I expect, for the the residents of Leicester to comprehend. Does anyone there still comprehend English ?
Less than 50% of the population!
Buzz Light-year
says...
1:08pm Fri 15 Mar 13
again
says...
3:30pm Fri 15 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:Leicester have admitted that their cathedral is too small for a suitable memorial to an English King. York Minister on the other hand is entirely adequate for King Richard's last resting place and moreover is where those interested would expect him to be interred.
Despite the blather from our resident communists and other assorted left wingers, 25,384 have signed the epetition that Richard be laid to rest in York.
http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/38772
Pity we are getting no support from the Minster authorities or the Archbishop, but with the Dean of York a Leicester import and the Archbishop caring nothing about York, it's hardly a surprise.
Our own descendants would find it very strange if he was to be reburied in Leicester!
RosieRussell
says...
7:46pm Fri 15 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:Now that is a very interesting and possibly revealing remark. What particular aspect of modern Leicester's population did you have in mind when you came up with that one?
Too simple, I expect, for the the residents of Leicester to comprehend. Does anyone there still comprehend English ?
Less than 50% of the population!
PinzaC55
says...
8:50pm Tue 19 Mar 13
Yorkie-Clifton
says...
10:55pm Tue 19 Mar 13
PinzaC55 wrote:Pity there are no Brains as Pinza55 could use them . LOL
Since there are 3 claimants its clear that one should have the skull , one the rib cage and one the arms and legs.
strenn1e
says...
12:12pm Wed 20 Mar 13
Bo Jolly wrote:This! If true, is what the press should be reporting as it is potentially much more damaging to York
Meanwhile, the council is planning to cut the post of City Archaeologist, which is the only protection for York's heritage within the planning system. Perhaps York should be looking to defend its own archaeology before campaigning to obtain Leicester's!
pedalling paul says...
9:41am Thu 14 Mar 13