Busker’s permit suspended (From York Press)
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York busker Jonny Walker’s permit suspended following dispute with council over sale of CDs
9:41am Friday 8th March 2013 in News
By Mike Laycock, Chief reporter
Jonny Walker busks in Parliament Street despite having his permit suspended
A BUSKER claims York council officials behaved heavy-handedly when they cautioned him and suspended his busking permit following a dispute over his CDs.
Jonny Walker said the authority charged street performers £40 a day if they wanted to sell CDs of their music, which was a lot of money for people performing for free in rain or shine.
He said he therefore wrote a sign saying: “CD available, suggested contribution £7, these CDs are not being offered for sale, contributions are voluntary and at your discretion.”
However, council employees approached him in Parliament Street on Wednesday, accused him of street trading and told him to take the sign down or he would lose his busking permit.
Police were called and a licensing enforcement officer gave him a caution and his licence has since been suspended.
Mr Walker, from Leeds, said he had founded the Association of Street Artists and Performers because, across the country, local authorities were getting heavy handed with people who only wanted to perform on the streets.
He said: “Public space belongs to all of us, and the high streets, under pressure from internet shopping, out-of-town developments, high rents and the dire economic situation, need to be full of life and music to keep people’s spirits up.
“Instead of sending six public servants to try to intimidate a street musician, why doesn’t the local authority work with the street artists and performers to build a sense of community?”
He said he wanted to find a way of working positively with the council to build more cooperative relationships with buskers.
Gill Cooper, City of York Council’s head of culture, tourism and city centre, said: “We are currently undergoing an investigation into this and other associated matters and cannot comment on specifics, but we can confirm that two city centre officers and then two licensing officers were called out yesterday.
“A caution was issued for illegal street-trading and a busking permit suspended subject to a detailed investigation.”
She said the terms of agreement of the permit were drawn up with the police and Safer York partnership, and all applicants signed up to them.
“The 250 street entertainers we currently licence and work with add to the ambience and attraction of a vibrant city centre and we welcome Mr Walker’s willingness in ‘working positively with City of York Council to build more co-operative relationships’.”
Comments(75)
metsaagain
says...
9:57am Fri 8 Mar 13
metsaagain
says...
9:58am Fri 8 Mar 13
pedalling paul
says...
10:00am Fri 8 Mar 13
It almost makes me want to stop logging on.....
notmyrealname
says...
10:01am Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man
says...
10:06am Fri 8 Mar 13
powerwatt
says...
10:17am Fri 8 Mar 13
What a waste of our money on people having an investigation into this. City of York Council is a joke.,
rodney'sdog
says...
10:48am Fri 8 Mar 13
matroom
says...
10:54am Fri 8 Mar 13
pedalling paul wrote:Oh please, dont tease us !!! Just stop logging on you cretin.
Perhaps the buskers could take a leaf from the Press website, which is now invaded when first opened, by a giant Kitkat advert. It almost makes me want to stop logging on.....
matroom
says...
10:56am Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man wrote:Totally agree. They are horrendous. Something needs doing.
Do the aggressive street beggars outside Heroin Foods need a permit? I don't see anyone moving them along. Or perhaps they are good for tourism?
BigJon
says...
10:59am Fri 8 Mar 13
powerwatt wrote:new definition......4 people....an army??
It is a bloody disgrace. It took an army of Clipboard wielding officials and 2 policemen to discuss the busking on the street over the sale of CDs!.
What a waste of our money on people having an investigation into this. City of York Council is a joke.,
And to all those complaining, I don't mind buskers but does a person with a good voice and that can obviously play the guitar well really need to blast it out over the top of everything else with a loud amplifier? It would be much nicer if he played at normal levels...
Woody G Mellor
says...
11:00am Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man wrote:I started my musical career busking on the streets of York 20 years ago. In those days I busked down Stonegate (doesn't look like its allowed anymore) I would even get money from the shop staff!
This makes me so angry that I'm struggling to find words to express my thoughts. I have so much admiration for these guys who, come rain, snow or shine, are out there trying to earn a living instead of scrounging benefits - while at the same time providing entertainment and adding to York's vibrant image as a place to visit. The buskers should be charging the council for entertaining tourists. Granted, not all buskers are great, but if a licence has been granted then let them play. It's incredible to think that while the country is in a financial mess, and CoYC doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow, that the old chestnuts of "regulation" and "enforcement" come out of the woodwork. I have a good mind to organise a mass busk outside Guildhall. Believe me, I have the means to do so...
Today's rulings are pathetic. York was once famous for its buskers. Now the council is killing music, not home taping. £40 per day to sell CD's!!!
If you need buskers to busk outside Guildhall, I'll dust off the acoustic and you can count me in. I am also capable of bringing along many many musicians to join in.
Come on let's do it. A massive protest Busk outside Guildhall. It'd be great!
RingoStarr
says...
11:03am Fri 8 Mar 13
matroom wrote:Good point matroom. Wonder if PP is related to 'Derek'?
pedalling paul wrote:Oh please, dont tease us !!! Just stop logging on you cretin.
Perhaps the buskers could take a leaf from the Press website, which is now invaded when first opened, by a giant Kitkat advert. It almost makes me want to stop logging on.....
robinbowes
says...
11:05am Fri 8 Mar 13
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Stroppiness
says...
11:10am Fri 8 Mar 13
Woody G Mellor wrote:To Old_Man and Woody - I'm right behind you and would certianly come along as an aging "groupie" - I would offer to sing, but strangled cats sounds are still not popular and other than "Londons Burning" on a recorder, my musical ability isn't up to much either!!
Old_Man wrote: This makes me so angry that I'm struggling to find words to express my thoughts. I have so much admiration for these guys who, come rain, snow or shine, are out there trying to earn a living instead of scrounging benefits - while at the same time providing entertainment and adding to York's vibrant image as a place to visit. The buskers should be charging the council for entertaining tourists. Granted, not all buskers are great, but if a licence has been granted then let them play. It's incredible to think that while the country is in a financial mess, and CoYC doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow, that the old chestnuts of "regulation" and "enforcement" come out of the woodwork. I have a good mind to organise a mass busk outside Guildhall. Believe me, I have the means to do so...I started my musical career busking on the streets of York 20 years ago. In those days I busked down Stonegate (doesn't look like its allowed anymore) I would even get money from the shop staff! Today's rulings are pathetic. York was once famous for its buskers. Now the council is killing music, not home taping. £40 per day to sell CD's!!! If you need buskers to busk outside Guildhall, I'll dust off the acoustic and you can count me in. I am also capable of bringing along many many musicians to join in. Come on let's do it. A massive protest Busk outside Guildhall. It'd be great!
Some buskers are rubbish - this guy has some talent from what I've seen of him so if he can make a shekel or 2 from selling CDs, then let him do it!!
Let's face it, CofYC clearly feel they have got to justify their existence at the mo, and what better way to do it than 4 clip-board wielding jobsworths?? And £40per day just for the ability to sell some CDs when he's already paid for his licence? Pathetic!
Mind you, I suppose they have somehow got to claw back the insane amount of money they have paid for/on the Palace of York................
.....
yorkshirenews
says...
11:29am Fri 8 Mar 13
The councils do not own our streets, we do and the council are our public servants, I really do hope Mr walker takes them on, they need to be reminded, this is not communist China.
He should start by lodging an appeal at the magistrates Court against the suspension of his permit, which he can do, as the council own the court they would reject it but give him the case required to carry to the ECHR.
bob the builder
says...
11:34am Fri 8 Mar 13
xtc
says...
11:45am Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man wrote:Shame they don't get so heavy handed with cyclists and people smoking drugs in parliament street like there were last fri afternoon never a cop about.
This makes me so angry that I'm struggling to find words to express my thoughts. I have so much admiration for these guys who, come rain, snow or shine, are out there trying to earn a living instead of scrounging benefits - while at the same time providing entertainment and adding to York's vibrant image as a place to visit. The buskers should be charging the council for entertaining tourists. Granted, not all buskers are great, but if a licence has been granted then let them play. It's incredible to think that while the country is in a financial mess, and CoYC doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow, that the old chestnuts of "regulation" and "enforcement" come out of the woodwork. I have a good mind to organise a mass busk outside Guildhall. Believe me, I have the means to do so...
BigJon
says...
11:55am Fri 8 Mar 13
rodney'sdog wrote:If they don't make money from CD's why 'sell' them? Why not just not pay the £40 and busk normally, letting people people enjoy the music and give as much/little as they want.....all of which would be 'profit' in the busker's pocket.
A ridiculous ruling that buskers should have to pay £40 a time to sell their own cds. As most musicians will tell you they just dont make money on their product-its basically a promo tool -after taking away production and recording costs they would probably have to sell them at £20 a time just to break even. Jonny is also one of our more talented street artists and if any readers have taken time out to listen to him they will know this. A massive foot in own mouth error by York Council who normally get it right with buskers-but they are not traders-just poorly paid talent-especially in this case.
In these digital days if they want to sell their music then all they'd have to do is have some cards made up that people could take directing them to a website where they could download the music (which wouldn't mean incurring as high production costs) either by individual track or as a 'cd'
Let's get a couple of things straight. Everyone backing him seems to be saying he should be allowed to play and busk where he wants.....fine no problem with that but.....He was not busted for busking, playing his music too loud, or anything else related to his performance....he was asked to stop "selling" his CD's (and therefor being a street-trader, not a busker) which he refused to do.
I haven't seen a busking licence, and someone is bound to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure it probably says somewhere on it that the busker is not allowed to trade his product (ie sell CDs)
And, btw, to all those complaining about the "poor" buskers being charged, check this guy's FB page out. He seems to make enough money to travel all over the country to do his 'gigs' so I would assume that he hardly lives on his busking income without some other form of support.
BigJon
says...
11:59am Fri 8 Mar 13
Oh, and Press the headline is a bit misleading..."York busker Jonny Walker’s permit...." makes it sound like he's a local busker from York, which he isn't
imassey
says...
12:00pm Fri 8 Mar 13
For the record, I don't agree with the Council charging buskers a fixed fee for selling their CDs - most won't even make the £40 a day from sales.
BigJon
says...
12:31pm Fri 8 Mar 13
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
ShunGokuSatsu
says...
12:42pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes wrote:Care to clarify what the distinction is here?
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig. Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention. No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Buzz Light-year
says...
12:56pm Fri 8 Mar 13
He said: “Public space belongs to all of us,
Yes. And we need to stop corporations and authorities taking it from us.
couldn't care less
says...
12:56pm Fri 8 Mar 13
ShunGokuSatsu wrote:Simple to me. Amplification for 1.
robinbowes wrote:Care to clarify what the distinction is here?
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig. Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention. No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
He tried to circumvent the street traders license and go rumbled suck it up
robinbowes
says...
12:57pm Fri 8 Mar 13
It's quite another to turn up with an amp (on a stand!), mic stand, cables, etc. with merchandise "for sale" (which it obviously is, despite his not-so-cunning-and-t
otally-transparent scheme).
NoNewsIsGoodNews
says...
12:58pm Fri 8 Mar 13
pedalling paul wrote:As much as I want you to stop posting on here, I am just too nice a person not to help with a problem that seems to affect us both.
Perhaps the buskers could take a leaf from the Press website, which is now invaded when first opened, by a giant Kitkat advert.
It almost makes me want to stop logging on.....
The ads are easily removed with a free add on called "Adblock Plus"
We can see eye to eye on certain subjects.
Buzz Light-year
says...
1:00pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man wrote:They do need moving along from there but they aren't "aggressive beggars".
Do the aggressive street beggars outside Heroin Foods need a permit? I don't see anyone moving them along. Or perhaps they are good for tourism?
They are messed up alcoholics and heroin addicts.
They don't beg outside Heroin Foods, they congregate, mouth off, look shabby and fkd up and make a mess.
Now that Bradley Bell is out of jail again they are a lot more noisy and anti-social.
robinbowes
says...
1:04pm Fri 8 Mar 13
http://imgur.com/JLs
0eeh
How would he feel getting sued if the old dear on the right of the picture tripped over his cabling and broke her hip?
keepitshut
says...
1:05pm Fri 8 Mar 13
YorkPatrol
says...
1:49pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Old_Man wrote:"This makes me so angry that I'm struggling to find words to express my thoughts"
This makes me so angry that I'm struggling to find words to express my thoughts. I have so much admiration for these guys who, come rain, snow or shine, are out there trying to earn a living instead of scrounging benefits - while at the same time providing entertainment and adding to York's vibrant image as a place to visit. The buskers should be charging the council for entertaining tourists. Granted, not all buskers are great, but if a licence has been granted then let them play. It's incredible to think that while the country is in a financial mess, and CoYC doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow, that the old chestnuts of "regulation" and "enforcement" come out of the woodwork. I have a good mind to organise a mass busk outside Guildhall. Believe me, I have the means to do so...
You still managed it though..
Silver
says...
3:42pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Pete the Brickie
says...
4:15pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Gill Cooper, City of York Council’s head of culture, tourism and city centre, said: “We are currently undergoing an investigation into this and other associated matters and cannot comment on specifics, but we can confirm that two city centre officers and then two licensing officers were called out yesterday.
Reading this you'd think that our council and police employ Binars instead of humans, Binars are a small Oompa Loompa like race of beings last seen on Star Trek who communicate in inane squeaks, can only function in pairs, have no compassion and are only capable of blindly following protocol.
Although Binars function as one they still require renumarating in pairs which probably explains why our council is unable to freeze local taxation.
johnwill
says...
4:20pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Garrowby Turnoff
says...
4:33pm Fri 8 Mar 13
http://www.york.gov.
uk/info/200427/stree
t_trading_and_buskin
g/237/street_trading
_and_busking/2
If I want to sell stuff to people on the streets of York, whether its flowers, cakes or CDs, it's obvious that some form of trading licence is required. If I want to be regarded as 'professional' in what I do, then such simple research and adherence to the rules would seem obligatory. Clearly Jonny Walker feels he is a special case because of thinking up some dodgy slant based on revenue being a "donation" rather than a sale. Yeh, as if no-one has thought of that before.
For the sake of all those professional musicians busking legally in Town, the council had no option but to stop him. All 250 of them must be thanking the council for upholding their rights.
I like busking though and would hate it becoming a 'proper' job.
JonnyWalker
says...
4:53pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:Hi, it's Jonny the busker here. It was actually 6 public officials, two city centre enforcement officers, two licensing officers and two policeman...
powerwatt wrote:new definition......4 people....an army??
It is a bloody disgrace. It took an army of Clipboard wielding officials and 2 policemen to discuss the busking on the street over the sale of CDs!.
What a waste of our money on people having an investigation into this. City of York Council is a joke.,
And to all those complaining, I don't mind buskers but does a person with a good voice and that can obviously play the guitar well really need to blast it out over the top of everything else with a loud amplifier? It would be much nicer if he played at normal levels...
Let's all it a small army to avoid confusion...
JonnyWalker
says...
4:54pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:As for the point about amplification. I use a 60 watt battery powered amp, it allows me to play finger style and be heard and not to damage my voice. It also creates a professional sound, essential if one is to make a living as a working musician as I do...
BigJon wrote:Hi, it's Jonny the busker here. It was actually 6 public officials, two city centre enforcement officers, two licensing officers and two policeman...
powerwatt wrote:new definition......4 people....an army??
It is a bloody disgrace. It took an army of Clipboard wielding officials and 2 policemen to discuss the busking on the street over the sale of CDs!.
What a waste of our money on people having an investigation into this. City of York Council is a joke.,
And to all those complaining, I don't mind buskers but does a person with a good voice and that can obviously play the guitar well really need to blast it out over the top of everything else with a loud amplifier? It would be much nicer if he played at normal levels...
Let's all it a small army to avoid confusion...
JonnyWalker
says...
4:57pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
JonnyWalker
says...
5:00pm Fri 8 Mar 13
bob the builder wrote:Hello there.
Does he file a tax return as a self employed individual and record all his cash sales daily? - I doubt it. Does he wants some free advertising? - don't they all? I'm behind the council for one rare occasion, there are too many charity collectors and street entertainers littering the streets of the city centre as much as there is too much street furniture. No doubt he has come to the attention of HMRC - an experience that makes dealing with the council a cakewalk.
I would remind you that this is a public forum and that to make unsubstantiated accusations or imputations about the financial affairs of another person that are entirely groundless is unwise.
I am a self-employed musician. I have an accountant and I pay income tax and national insurance alongside council tax, vat, motoring tax and a lot of tax on diesel. Please do not assume that musicians are tax-dodgers. Our profession and craft is worthy of respect. There IS a problem with tax-dodging in this country, but it tends to be at the level of multi-national corporations with multiple offshore arrangements.
BigJon
says...
5:09pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:try reading the original post (as well as the terms of the busking permit!)....
BigJon wrote:Hi, it's Jonny the busker here. It was actually 6 public officials, two city centre enforcement officers, two licensing officers and two policeman...
powerwatt wrote:new definition......4 people....an army??
It is a bloody disgrace. It took an army of Clipboard wielding officials and 2 policemen to discuss the busking on the street over the sale of CDs!.
What a waste of our money on people having an investigation into this. City of York Council is a joke.,
And to all those complaining, I don't mind buskers but does a person with a good voice and that can obviously play the guitar well really need to blast it out over the top of everything else with a loud amplifier? It would be much nicer if he played at normal levels...
Let's all it a small army to avoid confusion...
"It took an army of clipboard wielding officials AND 2 policemen..."
As there were 4 officials, the poster is describing an army as 4, not the 6 you seem to be making out....so hardly an army in anyone's description, even a small one....oh, and by the way if you've stopped "selling" the cd's when you were first asked then no more people would've been involved anyway.....it seems as though you were more willing to kick up a fuss for the extra publicity it has afforded yourself.....
BigJon
says...
5:17pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:it is not the fact that you were busking, amplified or not, that the council were complaining about....it's the fact as you were selling cds you were acting as a street vendor without the correct licence......
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
btw I can see no definition online that says that busking has to be spontaneous.....they all simply say that it is performing an act (music, drama, etc.) for voluntary donations......
robinbowes
says...
5:19pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:Amplification is part of the issue, ie. disrupting others. The main thrust of my point was about large amount of space taken up by all your equipment in a public space causing danger to the public.
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
Of course, I don't personally carry such a large amount of equipment around with me on the off-chance that I might suddenly fancy a "spontaneous and informal performance", but hey, what do I know?
flesh_tuxedo
says...
5:28pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker
says...
5:36pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:Hello Big Jon,
Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper.
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
The main point I have been making all along is that the Council's rules are unduly restrictive and bureaucratic, and that they don't consult with musicians and street performers when they make them, instead they impose it on us and then threaten to take away our permits if we challenge the status quo. What I'm calling for is a dialogue with the Council, musicians and street performers to come up with a more creative and collaborative approach. And £40 a day for a street trading consent is more then you have to pay for a stall on the farmer's market, fully stocked and not subject to rules requiring you to move every 2 hours and restricting where you can play.
JonnyWalker
says...
5:45pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:Hello,
rodney'sdog wrote:If they don't make money from CD's why 'sell' them? Why not just not pay the £40 and busk normally, letting people people enjoy the music and give as much/little as they want.....all of which would be 'profit' in the busker's pocket.
A ridiculous ruling that buskers should have to pay £40 a time to sell their own cds. As most musicians will tell you they just dont make money on their product-its basically a promo tool -after taking away production and recording costs they would probably have to sell them at £20 a time just to break even. Jonny is also one of our more talented street artists and if any readers have taken time out to listen to him they will know this. A massive foot in own mouth error by York Council who normally get it right with buskers-but they are not traders-just poorly paid talent-especially in this case.
In these digital days if they want to sell their music then all they'd have to do is have some cards made up that people could take directing them to a website where they could download the music (which wouldn't mean incurring as high production costs) either by individual track or as a 'cd'
Let's get a couple of things straight. Everyone backing him seems to be saying he should be allowed to play and busk where he wants.....fine no problem with that but.....He was not busted for busking, playing his music too loud, or anything else related to his performance....he was asked to stop "selling" his CD's (and therefor being a street-trader, not a busker) which he refused to do.
I haven't seen a busking licence, and someone is bound to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure it probably says somewhere on it that the busker is not allowed to trade his product (ie sell CDs)
And, btw, to all those complaining about the "poor" buskers being charged, check this guy's FB page out. He seems to make enough money to travel all over the country to do his 'gigs' so I would assume that he hardly lives on his busking income without some other form of support.
I am not pretending that I don't make a living as a street performer and a musician. I do. I am a working musician, that is no secret or anything I am hiding. Presumably that it was one of the council's objectives in having a badge scheme and auditioning would be performers, to have a higher standard.
When you busk, you take the risk that you might not make any money. Everything is based on good will. It is a fair exchange, you perform for free and people can choose to show appreciation in monetary terms. However, the council make it difficult by imposing a 'one size fits all' set of rules on all buskers, regardless of whether they are causing a problem or not. They also require you to get a street trading consent for CDS that costs £40 per day when a farmer's market stall costs less then that. The point I am making is that the council should be encouraging street culture which is a cost-free way of enhancing the shared spaces of the city, not cracking down on people. For your information, I was not selling my CDs, the sign stated 'these CDs are not being offered for sale, any contribution is voluntary and at your discretion'. Nothing to stop you taking one without putting anything towards it as people often do...
JonnyWalker
says...
5:52pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes wrote:'Public danger'
JonnyWalker wrote:Amplification is part of the issue, ie. disrupting others. The main thrust of my point was about large amount of space taken up by all your equipment in a public space causing danger to the public.
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
Of course, I don't personally carry such a large amount of equipment around with me on the off-chance that I might suddenly fancy a "spontaneous and informal performance", but hey, what do I know?
The stuff is not invisible. The performance IS informal and spontaneous. I am not booked to plaŷ there and am free to play in any other place. You have not answered my point about noise. The body of an acoustic guitar 'amplifies' the sound of the strings, so does the neck of a trumpet or the hollow part of a drum. The question is noise level. An amplifier can be set at a considerate level, just as people can reasonably walk around a guitar case and a trolley...
JonnyWalker
says...
5:57pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Garrowby Turnoff wrote:I don't think I am special. And I don't think the other 250 buskers are thanking the council. Many of them are known to me personally and they all consider that a £40 daily charge is extortionate. Market stalls pay less for a fully stocked space on the street, and are not subject to other terms and conditions that buskers have to agree to.
It's only taken me 30 seconds to find the relevant web page which lays down a simple set of rules for all buskers to follow in order to get a free licence.
http://www.york.gov.
uk/info/200427/stree
t_trading_and_buskin
g/237/street_trading
_and_busking/2
If I want to sell stuff to people on the streets of York, whether its flowers, cakes or CDs, it's obvious that some form of trading licence is required. If I want to be regarded as 'professional' in what I do, then such simple research and adherence to the rules would seem obligatory. Clearly Jonny Walker feels he is a special case because of thinking up some dodgy slant based on revenue being a "donation" rather than a sale. Yeh, as if no-one has thought of that before.
For the sake of all those professional musicians busking legally in Town, the council had no option but to stop him. All 250 of them must be thanking the council for upholding their rights.
I like busking though and would hate it becoming a 'proper' job.
When your sign says 'these CDs are not for sale' that is unambiguous. I actually have the same sign with me in other towns and cities, many of which also don't allow cd sales. My wider point is that the council should be encouraging and enabling music on the streets, not making it more difficult then it needs to be...
JonnyWalker
says...
5:58pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:Funny you should say that...
JonnyWalker wrote:it is not the fact that you were busking, amplified or not, that the council were complaining about....it's the fact as you were selling cds you were acting as a street vendor without the correct licence......
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
btw I can see no definition online that says that busking has to be spontaneous.....they all simply say that it is performing an act (music, drama, etc.) for voluntary donations......
The sign in my case says CD available, all contributions are voluntary and at your discretion'
How is that street trading please?
robinbowes
says...
5:59pm Fri 8 Mar 13
ted? Perhaps they should learn to use their white stick better, eh?
Your basic premise seems to be "I can do what I like and screw everyone else". Can you understand that not everyone might share that viewpoint?
JonnyWalker
says...
6:03pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes wrote:No it's not, I normally would be standing in the spot where the wires are. I agree that my stuff could be tidier but its a big leap from that to say that I don't care about other people. That's a bit unfair. I've played for 10 years and no one has ever fallen over my stuff in all that time, nor would I want them to.
And what of the blind/partially-sigh
ted? Perhaps they should learn to use their white stick better, eh?
Your basic premise seems to be "I can do what I like and screw everyone else". Can you understand that not everyone might share that viewpoint?
Woody G Mellor
says...
6:20pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes wrote:What a pathetic post. Using blind people to have a go at someone! Have you not noticed that there are 'one or two' other obstacles around which partially sighted or blind people may find hazardous?
And what of the blind/partially-sigh
ted? Perhaps they should learn to use their white stick better, eh?
Your basic premise seems to be "I can do what I like and screw everyone else". Can you understand that not everyone might share that viewpoint?
Shock2theSystem
says...
6:22pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon
says...
6:23pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:So, as I need a new set of coasters, next time I see you playing and offering your cds for donations you won't mind me picking up 5-6 and dropping a couple of pounds into your case......something makes me think that you'd soon try to stop me.
BigJon wrote:Funny you should say that...
JonnyWalker wrote:it is not the fact that you were busking, amplified or not, that the council were complaining about....it's the fact as you were selling cds you were acting as a street vendor without the correct licence......
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
btw I can see no definition online that says that busking has to be spontaneous.....they all simply say that it is performing an act (music, drama, etc.) for voluntary donations......
The sign in my case says CD available, all contributions are voluntary and at your discretion'
How is that street trading please?
Face facts....if you weren't "selling" your cds you wouldn't have to pay the £40 for a licence......and if you were going to play in York (and sell cds) regularly then you could get a monthly one that would work out cheaper anyway.
As I said you could still give people the information via a leaflet or card about where they could download the music.
Failing that idea, seeing as you like playing near the fountain, maybe you could team up with the stall-holder nearest the market entrance, or one of the coffee shops and get them to do the actually selling for a percentage.
btw as you think that busking is spontaneous and that everyone should have a chance then how can you complain about the councils 2 hour guideline? After all isn't it fair to give everyone a chance to play at the best spots?
Candy Cupcake
says...
6:26pm Fri 8 Mar 13
robinbowes
says...
6:26pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Mr. Walker said:
"Public Danger - the stuff is not invisible"
and
"... just as people can reasonably walk around a guitar case and a trolley..."
Translation: I'm going to put all my stuff where I like because I don't care about inconveniencing anyone else.
BigJon
says...
6:34pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Shock2theSystem wrote:comparing the busker to a museum....?
Surely the point is that it shouldn't need so many officials (paid for by York taxpayers) to address this matter. We live in a democracy and I can't imagine that this is what the majority of people want. Furthermore, the rules are wrong in the first place. Buskers shouldn't have to pay to be a street trader when selling CDs. The 'suggested donation' approach should be fine. It's been a perfectly valid rule for museums for long enough, so why not extend this to buskers? If they have to pay to sell them, they will have to cover that cost and most people who want one won't buy one because they're too overpriced.
firstly, most museums do charge for entrance but even for those that don't, ok, for going round the museum you can pay a 'suggested donation' as you see fit......but when you get to the gift shop do you expect to only give a donation of what you want for everything, or do you expect to buy them?
/kev/null
says...
6:40pm Fri 8 Mar 13
He's one of the better buskers we see in York, he's right that the street trading fee they want to charge him is unreasonable, and he's right to raise this issue.
Shock2theSystem
says...
6:47pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:Let's not get silly. The point is that the rule can work so that people (tourists or whoever) can take away an inexpensive CD. For what they are and for how cheap they can be for a busker to make, I don't see a problem with that.
Shock2theSystem wrote:comparing the busker to a museum....?
Surely the point is that it shouldn't need so many officials (paid for by York taxpayers) to address this matter. We live in a democracy and I can't imagine that this is what the majority of people want. Furthermore, the rules are wrong in the first place. Buskers shouldn't have to pay to be a street trader when selling CDs. The 'suggested donation' approach should be fine. It's been a perfectly valid rule for museums for long enough, so why not extend this to buskers? If they have to pay to sell them, they will have to cover that cost and most people who want one won't buy one because they're too overpriced.
firstly, most museums do charge for entrance but even for those that don't, ok, for going round the museum you can pay a 'suggested donation' as you see fit......but when you get to the gift shop do you expect to only give a donation of what you want for everything, or do you expect to buy them?
Even AndyD
says...
7:47pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:BigJon shames paid reporter by doing some proper research. The Press really is a rag, why does anyone buy it?
Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper.
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
Woody G Mellor
says...
7:53pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Even AndyD wrote:The wise ones don't buy it. We use this site. ;0)
BigJon wrote:BigJon shames paid reporter by doing some proper research. The Press really is a rag, why does anyone buy it?
Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper.
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
Even AndyD
says...
7:57pm Fri 8 Mar 13
heworth.28
says...
8:15pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Even AndyD wrote:Asser-stripping by Newsquest since the takeover, and a gradual reduction in staff at the paper as a result. One & Another & the two uni newspapers (all of which are flawed in their own ways) do a much better job.
Well quite. I'm being a little churlish too - I suspect most local rags are the same nowadays. But every day its the same lowest common denominator nonsense. Or reporting news which hasn't happened yet as with Gunpowder Plod. What happened to the Press of old - that had facts in. Am just getting old....mumble, mumble.... :-)
Silver
says...
8:35pm Fri 8 Mar 13
paulinesnowden
says...
10:06pm Fri 8 Mar 13
york city centre is a disgrace
undesirables on every street corner
where are the police
to move them on
i have never seen police on duty
only when royalty are in york
lets have bobby on the beat and feel safe again
bolero
says...
11:18pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Woody G Mellor
says...
11:40pm Fri 8 Mar 13
York would then be a much more cultured happier place.
JonnyWalker
says...
11:40pm Fri 8 Mar 13
Even AndyD wrote:Why slag off the paper?
BigJon wrote:BigJon shames paid reporter by doing some proper research. The Press really is a rag, why does anyone buy it?
Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper.
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
He's not done much research. He doesn't seem to realise that I am challenging the bureaucratic and burdensome nature of the busking policy. It is because of these very terms and conditions and how restrictive they are that I have raised this issue with York Council. They draw up arbitrary rules and then impose it on street performers and threaten to take away their license if they don't comply.
JonnyWalker
says...
11:48pm Fri 8 Mar 13
BigJon wrote:I don't support the two hour rule. Today there were no buskers in the whole city apart from me. Why should it be down to a city official to walk around the streets moving buskers on every two hours? Surely that is not the most appropriate use of their time...
JonnyWalker wrote:So, as I need a new set of coasters, next time I see you playing and offering your cds for donations you won't mind me picking up 5-6 and dropping a couple of pounds into your case......something makes me think that you'd soon try to stop me.
BigJon wrote:Funny you should say that...
JonnyWalker wrote:it is not the fact that you were busking, amplified or not, that the council were complaining about....it's the fact as you were selling cds you were acting as a street vendor without the correct licence......
robinbowes wrote:Busking is a spontaneous and informal performance that doesn't involve contractual payment arrangements. It is based upon reciprocity. People are under no obligation to make contributions but freely choose to, making it economically viable for professional performers to play for free.
This isn't busking, it's an outdoor gig.
Perhaps if Mr. Walker turned up with just his guitar and sang then he might not attract so much attention.
No sympathy (well, perhaps a little bit. but I'm making a point).
Amplification is a red herring. Bagpipes, drums, trumpets and saxophones are all louder than a guitar and voice through a battery powered amplifier. The question is whether the sound is intrusive.
btw I can see no definition online that says that busking has to be spontaneous.....they all simply say that it is performing an act (music, drama, etc.) for voluntary donations......
The sign in my case says CD available, all contributions are voluntary and at your discretion'
How is that street trading please?
Face facts....if you weren't "selling" your cds you wouldn't have to pay the £40 for a licence......and if you were going to play in York (and sell cds) regularly then you could get a monthly one that would work out cheaper anyway.
As I said you could still give people the information via a leaflet or card about where they could download the music.
Failing that idea, seeing as you like playing near the fountain, maybe you could team up with the stall-holder nearest the market entrance, or one of the coffee shops and get them to do the actually selling for a percentage.
btw as you think that busking is spontaneous and that everyone should have a chance then how can you complain about the councils 2 hour guideline? After all isn't it fair to give everyone a chance to play at the best spots?
If someone is generating a legitimate complaint then of course they should be willing to move, but that is not the issue here.
Your point about taking multiple CDs is valid, but id have to question your motives for doing it...would it be to make a very cheap and mean-spirited point?
The fact remains that street culture is an extremely cost-effective way of bringing life to the public spaces of the city. The problems that arise from time to time are easy to manage and do not require the man power of six public servants.
NoNewsIsGoodNews
says...
11:53pm Fri 8 Mar 13
JonnyWalker wrote:Nearly everybody that comments on here wants to take on the council in one shape or another, but unfortunately when someone like yourself actually does it, they tend to get a little bit jealous because you are doing something that they only talk about.
Even AndyD wrote:Why slag off the paper?
BigJon wrote:BigJon shames paid reporter by doing some proper research. The Press really is a rag, why does anyone buy it?
Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper.
The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd)
It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....
He's not done much research. He doesn't seem to realise that I am challenging the bureaucratic and burdensome nature of the busking policy. It is because of these very terms and conditions and how restrictive they are that I have raised this issue with York Council. They draw up arbitrary rules and then impose it on street performers and threaten to take away their license if they don't comply.
It happens on here all the time.
Good luck Jonny Walker, you will need it with this council.
MrChuckles
says...
12:02am Sat 9 Mar 13
I wait with great anticipation to see how long this "detailed investigation" takes, how much it costs, and how little it achieves, merely will be a reason to justiy the existence of paper pushers and posh titles! Idiot council at it again!
As for the post about tripping up over equipment and all that rubbish, I think the award for stupid comment of the week has been won by a landslide.
Scarlet Pimpernel
says...
1:14am Sat 9 Mar 13
NoNewsIsGoodNews wrote:I'll second that.
JonnyWalker wrote:Nearly everybody that comments on here wants to take on the council in one shape or another, but unfortunately when someone like yourself actually does it, they tend to get a little bit jealous because you are doing something that they only talk about. It happens on here all the time. Good luck Jonny Walker, you will need it with this council.Even AndyD wrote:Why slag off the paper? He's not done much research. He doesn't seem to realise that I am challenging the bureaucratic and burdensome nature of the busking policy. It is because of these very terms and conditions and how restrictive they are that I have raised this issue with York Council. They draw up arbitrary rules and then impose it on street performers and threaten to take away their license if they don't comply.BigJon wrote: Having done a bit of research on the Council website, the £40 per day that he is complaining about is actually a bit wrong. This is for one-off or occasional licences for buskers to sell CDs. If they are doing it regularly it's actually just under £200 for a month.....so if the busker were going out more than 5 times in the month this would work out cheaper. The rule regarding needing a street-trading licence for buskers to sell CDs is clearly stated on the webpage so Mr Walker would've been clearly aware that that he was breaking the regulations (he obviously was hence his usage of the 'suggested donation' price for a cd) It is also interesting to see Mr Walker performing in the video above using his amp in the same place that he was using on Wednesday....despite the fact that the clearly stated guide says that no busker should "conduct amplified performances in the same location more than once between Monday and Friday".....BigJon shames paid reporter by doing some proper research. The Press really is a rag, why does anyone buy it?
Good luck Jonny !
A word of warning though. Don't be surprised if they ignore you. A group (not musical) I am a member of, is in the middle of challenging them over alleged misinformation and cheating. A complaint was made two weeks ago, and we have not received a response yet, despite their code of conduct requiring them to respond within five days. When caught out, they duck and dive, and give you the runaround. They're a complete shower if **** in my opinion.
Old_Man
says...
1:37am Sat 9 Mar 13
Magicman!
says...
3:55am Sat 9 Mar 13
JonnyWalker
says...
12:22pm Sat 9 Mar 13
keepitshut wrote:The answer is 'no'...
I wonder if this is the same guy...who on being asked if £2 was enough of a donation for one of his cds said..........No!
Frequently people who enjoy my music ask if they can take a cd and don't put money towards it. I don't stop them because it is usually because they don't have any money but really enjoyed what I played.
rodney'sdog
says...
12:38pm Sat 9 Mar 13
Old_Man says...
9:48am Fri 8 Mar 13