Electric vehicles boost for emergency service (From York Press)

Hope they get lucky with them then... a friend of mine has owned one for the last 2 1/2 months and its gone back to dealer 3 times with charging faults...nearest dealer that could do it was newcastle !!

They will soon discover they use as much fuel as any other car when stationary for long periods as ambulance responder cars can be, as they run on petrol at these times to keep the occupant warm or cool.

I'd also point out this vehicle is not well known for its overall reliability and robust build quality, I'm only a builder as opposed to a "fleet manager" but I'd say those qualities were perhaps more important given this vehicles role than saving the planet or pleasing Councillor Merret.

‘Councillor Dave Merrett, cabinet member for Transport, Planning and Sustainability, said: “I very much welcome Yorkshire Ambulance Service’s move to introducing lower-emission vehicles to its fleet. This is a first for the UK and an initiative I hope other emergency services will adopt.” ‘

Yes electric vehicles are all very well for very short journeys.

However they have little range and if a major emergency situation occurs they will be useless as more than an hour with the lights flashing parked up, they will be flat!

Can you imagine an electric fire engine that has to stop pumping water because the battery is flat rather than being able to refuel in situ as required now!

Also, in a scenario of a bigger emergency with the mains supply off, have the ambulance service considered how they will charge their electric vehicles in a power blackout where a normal diesel vehicle will be out doing the task it has been designed for rather than abandoned in the corner of the yard as its actually no use.

I am just not convinced that it has been thought out and assessed properly for suitability for the task expected, perhaps more of a PR exercise for green credentials, albeit very expensively in money and possibly somebodies life!

Low Emission? Where do they think the electricity comes from? Until a much greater share of this country's power comes from nuclear (or other, less realistic, clean) sources there's no difference between petrol power and electric power. Other than the length of time you can drive before you need to refuel, of course.

Kevin Turvey wrote:
‘Councillor Dave Merrett, cabinet member for Transport, Planning and Sustainability, said: “I very much welcome Yorkshire Ambulance Service’s move to introducing lower-emission vehicles to its fleet. This is a first for the UK and an initiative I hope other emergency services will adopt.” ‘

Yes electric vehicles are all very well for very short journeys.

However they have little range and if a major emergency situation occurs they will be useless as more than an hour with the lights flashing parked up, they will be flat!

Can you imagine an electric fire engine that has to stop pumping water because the battery is flat rather than being able to refuel in situ as required now!

Also, in a scenario of a bigger emergency with the mains supply off, have the ambulance service considered how they will charge their electric vehicles in a power blackout where a normal diesel vehicle will be out doing the task it has been designed for rather than abandoned in the corner of the yard as its actually no use.

I am just not convinced that it has been thought out and assessed properly for suitability for the task expected, perhaps more of a PR exercise for green credentials, albeit very expensively in money and possibly somebodies life!

If Merritt says its the best thing since sliced bread, you had better get used to it.

Thisisnotasmile wrote:
Low Emission? Where do they think the electricity comes from? Until a much greater share of this country's power comes from nuclear (or other, less realistic, clean) sources there's no difference between petrol power and electric power. Other than the length of time you can drive before you need to refuel, of course.

Clearly we need more wind farms.

I have just leased a large diesel estate, and out of interest did a comparison with an electric Nissan Leaf, a much smaller car. There was little difference in the total cost including the fuel/power requirement over 3 years and 30k miles. Reason, very high price of the electric vehicle.

I hope Vauxhall are taking the 'hit' on this not the taxpayer.

It'd be interesting to see the difference in range with the siren on and the siren off. A lower emission of sound would be much appreciated.

The council said it also has plans to install a public charging network across its city centre car parks with a fast-charge capability.

What with?... magic beans. Merrett lives in dream land afterall

TheTruthHurts wrote:

The council said it also has plans to install a public charging network across its city centre car parks with a fast-charge capability.

What with?... magic beans. Merrett lives in dream land afterall

Its like the Council has attention deficit disorder and is bored with tiresome things such as collecting and recycling waste and ensuring public safety by locking the parks.

PR nonsense by the crazy YAS Management. They should be focussing on addressing real issues, like staff shortages.

Kevin Turvey says...
10:31am Wed 27 Feb 13

Also, in a scenario of a bigger emergency with the mains supply off, have the ambulance service considered how they will charge their electric vehicles in a power blackout where a normal diesel vehicle will be out doing the task it has been designed for rather than abandoned in the corner of the yard as its actually no use.


I am just not convinced that it has been thought out and assessed properly for suitability for the task expected, perhaps more of a PR exercise for green credentials, albeit very expensively in money and possibly somebodies life!

I agree with the last part of your post completely, but this particular vehicle only runs on electric for what in real life would be a few miles under full power with its lights flashing and siren blaring on its way to an emergency or an hour or two stationary running heating/air con on standby. After that it reverts to petrol but achieves no more than average economy and less than some diesels. The quoted average figure of 174mpg assumes maximum use of electrical power for propulsion on typical comuter type trips with charging points at both ends not something an ambulance is ever likely to do.

Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
It'd be interesting to see the difference in range with the siren on and the siren off. A lower emission of sound would be much appreciated.

Absolutley, turn the sirens off on all emergency vehicles. How dare they alert us to their presence when driving on the wrong side of the road whilst driving to save someones life.

They are loud for a reason, to prevent halfwitts from walking in to the road or driving into them. It doesnt always work as some people appear totally oblivious, I cant imagine you would be one of those people.....

I don't have any experience of this Vauxhall, but on my last US visit I had a Toyota Pious (oops, Freudian slip!) as a rental car, and it was fookin' abysmal. It accelerated from zero to 20 like a cat with a soldering iron up its bum (hence the need to be super careful to avoid rear-ending people), but so sluggishly at motorway speeds that even the lorries were trying to overtake me on slight hills. Its fuel consumption was no better than any petrol-powered, medium sized hatchback, and slightly worse than some I've driven. And when I collected it, the Hertz lady advised me to program the emergency breakdown number into my phone as a precaution, because, she cheerfully admitted, they're always breaking down and spend at least half their time being repaired. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the technology!

I can't believe that hybrids will ever be the answer to anything. The cost of putting two engines plus a sodding great battery in a car will always make the purchase price high. The limited lifespan of that battery will always make the cost of maintenance high, and the extra weight of the electric engine and battery will cancel out the fuel efficiency gain. The only scenario in which one would make any sense is if you're doing short, totally electric runs 99% of the time with just the occasional long drive, hence needing the petrol engine for range. For the rest of us, concentrating on the mass production of alternative liquid fuels for internal combustion engines (especially algal biofuel, which is looking very promising - it can be produced in tanks in the desert, which doesn't take agricultural land out of use, and Lufthansa are already flying A320s on it) is surely the way to go.

BY Taxis wrote:

Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
It'd be interesting to see the difference in range with the siren on and the siren off. A lower emission of sound would be much appreciated.

Absolutley, turn the sirens off on all emergency vehicles. How dare they alert us to their presence when driving on the wrong side of the road whilst driving to save someones life.

They are loud for a reason, to prevent halfwitts from walking in to the road or driving into them. It doesnt always work as some people appear totally oblivious, I cant imagine you would be one of those people.....

Absolutely right, I'm not one of those people.

So where were these half-wits at 5.00am on Christmas Day morning when an ambulance went the whole length of Bootham - from St Peter's School to the lights at Gillygate, down Gillygate and on along Clarence Street? Not a soul. No cars, no pedestrians. But sirens howling throughout every minute of its journey. If you can prove it wasn't either laziness or sheer-bloodymindedne
ss by the driver, please do so.

If you paid attention you'd see many emergency service drivers taking the easy option and using sirens (designed for open motorways, not narrow urban streets) during the full extent of their journey. In other countries, and in other UK authorities, drivers are given instructions to use the sirens only when they need to, when lights are not enough. Apart from giving the impression that emergencies (which, by definition, are serious and unexpected situations) are running wild, it shows complacency by the drivers.

Are you happy with York sounding like downtown Aleppo, or the Detroit of the 70s? Because I'm not.

Couldn't agree more. Two further points. 1 - I'm convinced that ambulances and police cars are now travelling with sirens blaring and lights flashing for reasons that would not have justified it a few years ago. I have to pull over for one probably once every 2-3 days now. When I first passed my test in 1994 (in a south London suburb, so not exactly sparsely populated), it was once or twice a month, if that. 2 - Familiarity breeds contempt, and so if (as I suspect) police cars especially are driving through busy city streets with lights and sirens on just because they fancy getting back for their tea break a bit quicker, sooner or later other motorists will no longer pull over smartly for them and respond along the lines of 'Yeah ... right'; thereby increasing the response time when there really is an emergency.

Guy Fawkes wrote:
I don't have any experience of this Vauxhall, but on my last US visit I had a Toyota Pious (oops, Freudian slip!) as a rental car, and it was fookin' abysmal. It accelerated from zero to 20 like a cat with a soldering iron up its bum (hence the need to be super careful to avoid rear-ending people), but so sluggishly at motorway speeds that even the lorries were trying to overtake me on slight hills. Its fuel consumption was no better than any petrol-powered, medium sized hatchback, and slightly worse than some I've driven. And when I collected it, the Hertz lady advised me to program the emergency breakdown number into my phone as a precaution, because, she cheerfully admitted, they're always breaking down and spend at least half their time being repaired. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the technology!

I can't believe that hybrids will ever be the answer to anything. The cost of putting two engines plus a sodding great battery in a car will always make the purchase price high. The limited lifespan of that battery will always make the cost of maintenance high, and the extra weight of the electric engine and battery will cancel out the fuel efficiency gain. The only scenario in which one would make any sense is if you're doing short, totally electric runs 99% of the time with just the occasional long drive, hence needing the petrol engine for range. For the rest of us, concentrating on the mass production of alternative liquid fuels for internal combustion engines (especially algal biofuel, which is looking very promising - it can be produced in tanks in the desert, which doesn't take agricultural land out of use, and Lufthansa are already flying A320s on it) is surely the way to go.

The Prius only really exists for the US market, they have never taken to diesel engines for cars, and the diesel pumps are basically for trucks only. We are fortunate in the UK ( except for the price of the stuff ), now most new diesels come equipped with particulate filters, stop start engine technology, and many have regenerative braking which does something useful instead of producing heat, and very sophisticated 'automatic' gearboxes.

If diesel and petrol car technology had stood still there would be a strong argument for hybrid and electric cars, but it didn't. The users always point to wind turbines and solar panels as the fuel source for their electric cars, but it would just as valid to point to a coal fired power station.

The 20mph emissions argument, so forcefully stated by some in York at the moment is also based on a historical position ( One survey used to give a 12% fuel saving figure dates from 1990 and will therefore include many 70's and 80's cars ) and not on the actual vehicles that will be on the road as time progresses.

Just to add a comment from someone who has ACTUALLY driven one of these vehicles rather than the creative literary types above - the Ampera has a battery and a petrol generator. The battery can take the car 25-30 miles on its own and the generator kicks in automatically to extend the range. The drive power is always electric however the source can be switched from the grid to the on-board fuel tank. Using grid energy is much cheaper and much lower in CO2 than petrol. I have sympathy for Mulgrave above who has recently leased a brand new diesel car - the price of diesel is based on the global market and this is only going one way - up. Meanwhile the price of an electric car has just dropped substantially.

mootpoint wrote:
Just to add a comment from someone who has ACTUALLY driven one of these vehicles rather than the creative literary types above - the Ampera has a battery and a petrol generator. The battery can take the car 25-30 miles on its own and the generator kicks in automatically to extend the range. The drive power is always electric however the source can be switched from the grid to the on-board fuel tank. Using grid energy is much cheaper and much lower in CO2 than petrol. I have sympathy for Mulgrave above who has recently leased a brand new diesel car - the price of diesel is based on the global market and this is only going one way - up. Meanwhile the price of an electric car has just dropped substantially.

The lease deal on the Leaf was a Nissan advert from last Sunday, the Mercedes E220 Cdi Auto Estate was leased 3 weeks ago. I haven't checked the Ampera prices but it is a bigger car and as you point out has similar technology to the Leaf plus a petrol engine so presumably more money.

If you are leasing it doesn't matter what happens to car prices during the term, and I don't see an end to hefty increases in diesel or electricity prices. I do hear of the possibility of rolling blackouts in a couple of years if we don't get to grips with securing future generating capacity.

Had a quick scan of Merc prices for E220 CDi Auto Estates - if you are paying under £300/month inc VAT you are doing well. Fuel at 10k miles is £1150/year + £135 VED. This is £4885/year. The Leaf is advertised at £199/month, £20/month electricity and no tax. Adds up to £2628/year.
That's almost half the cost - you could have bought two and given me one for free : )
The UK has ample generational capacity for electricity - EVs mostly charge at night when grid demand is low anyway so there is no issue with supply. Diesel shortages are far more likely from UK fuel strikes and global demand pushing the price of oil.

Think we have this to ourselves now!

Spreading the initial rental over the term, the merc is £378 per month, plus fuel and road fund, so £5821/year.

I have found the Nissan advert, £239/month + £6282 initial rental!!, (with the option to pay £11585 after three years to keep driving the car but never own it). It took this to be about as good as it got, but had a look at web deals,the only £199 I saw was + VAT for £6k miles. Best 10k on same spread basis as Merc was £349 month, so £4428/year.

Yes, cheaper, but not by miles, and the rider for me is that it was only a Sunday lunch time 'out of interest' calculation, would have had to rent a van today to do a 125 mile round trip with the back full of furniture, due to both range and the fact the cars are in no way direct competitors in size.

My stance is that, bearing in mind the Edwardians dabbled with electric cars, we have not had the breakthrough with the battery technology, as we have done with, say, computer memory. I note as well the Ampera as cousin of the American Chevy Volt has a petrol engine to charge its battery rather than a diesel that would make more sense in the UK. I do take the point that unless there is ongoing interest and development, there won't be a chance of improvement, and would guess that the Ambulance Service has got a deal better than any we are talking about.