Traffic lights at Heworth Green remain switched off three years after being installed

York Press: Local resident Stuart Moody ponders the covered-up traffic lights Local resident Stuart Moody ponders the covered-up traffic lights

THESE traffic lights have stood hooded and switched off for more than three years after being installed at a junction on a busy York road.

Motorists have to emerge into Heworth Green from Eboracum Way without assistance from the lights, and pedestrians have to cross roads without help from the pelican crossing “green man.”

Some residents in Eboracum Way say it would be helpful for the lights to be turned on now, to assist them in making right turns to enter and leave Heworth Green.

Resident Stuart Moody said it was particularly difficult during the morning and evening rush hours, while Martin Watson said: “It can be a nightmare.”

Highways chiefs say the volume of traffic emerging into the main road from Eboracum Way is too low to justify switching them on.

They say they will only be justified when traffic along Eboracum Way increases with the opening of the second phase of the James Street link road, which will link Lawrence Street with Heworth Green and relieve pressure on the inner ring road.

Dave Carter, head of network management at City of York Council, said the lights were installed by housebuilders Persimmon as a condition of planning consent on the site.

“Currently, the volume of traffic in Eboracum Way is too low to justify the lights being switched on, which was proved the case when we carried out a trial three years ago.

"The traffic demand at this junction will significantly increase once the link to James Street is completed and discussions with developers have been ongoing to achieve this.

“In the interim, the council is not opposed to trialling the traffic lights again if the demand is there. The main purpose of the lights has always been to cope with the traffic demands once the development is complete and the link road opens.”

Simon Usher, director in charge at Persimmon Homes Yorkshire, said the lights were funded by Persimmon Homes and installed by the council.

“All work on our development was completed December 2009 and the traffic light junction has been formally handed over and adopted by City of York Council.

“Persimmon Homes has no further land holding in the vicinity or involvement in the delivery of the remaining development and link road.”

Comments (32)

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9:46am Mon 18 Feb 13

razor08 says...

CoYC are obviously missing a trick to cause more traffic tailbacks of their own making here. I am confident with these lights functioning we can have tailbacks around the Monkgate roundabout and back as far Mill lane without much difficulty. oh joy!
CoYC are obviously missing a trick to cause more traffic tailbacks of their own making here. I am confident with these lights functioning we can have tailbacks around the Monkgate roundabout and back as far Mill lane without much difficulty. oh joy! razor08
  • Score: 0

10:03am Mon 18 Feb 13

Ignatius Lumpopo says...

No mention here of when the James Street connection will (if ever) actually be built.

And, if the residents of Eboracum Way think they deserve them, why can't we have traffic lights at EVERY road junction in York? It's not like their road into Heworth Green is York's busiest non-signalled junction.
No mention here of when the James Street connection will (if ever) actually be built. And, if the residents of Eboracum Way think they deserve them, why can't we have traffic lights at EVERY road junction in York? It's not like their road into Heworth Green is York's busiest non-signalled junction. Ignatius Lumpopo
  • Score: 0

10:10am Mon 18 Feb 13

Whistlejacket says...

Be careful what you wish for. It's usually the case that, when the traffic lights fail at a junction, the traffic flow is dramatically improved. Most drivers are courteous and intelligent enough to negotiate a junction in cooperation with those around them.
A more interesting experiment would be to turn off all the traffic lights from 7PM - 7AM.
Be careful what you wish for. It's usually the case that, when the traffic lights fail at a junction, the traffic flow is dramatically improved. Most drivers are courteous and intelligent enough to negotiate a junction in cooperation with those around them. A more interesting experiment would be to turn off all the traffic lights from 7PM - 7AM. Whistlejacket
  • Score: 0

10:14am Mon 18 Feb 13

meme says...

why cannot the link road be completed by the council and the money clawed back when the developers finsh the rest of the scheme?
Persimmon had to pay for their bit of the road and it would not be difficult for the council to finish it
why cannot the link road be completed by the council and the money clawed back when the developers finsh the rest of the scheme? Persimmon had to pay for their bit of the road and it would not be difficult for the council to finish it meme
  • Score: 0

10:22am Mon 18 Feb 13

ReginaldBiscuit says...

Ignatius Lumpopo wrote:
No mention here of when the James Street connection will (if ever) actually be built.

And, if the residents of Eboracum Way think they deserve them, why can't we have traffic lights at EVERY road junction in York? It's not like their road into Heworth Green is York's busiest non-signalled junction.
James Street Connection - Is that like the song L.A. Connection by the band Rainbow on the seminal 78' album "Long Live Rock 'n' Roll"?

Given that the traffic lights have been hooded for so long, I'm surprised CiPlod of Fulford nick haven't been down to move them on. That or a Neighbourhood Witch scheme has been started because of the 'Hoodies' in which case, expect them to be burnt soon.
[quote][p][bold]Ignatius Lumpopo[/bold] wrote: No mention here of when the James Street connection will (if ever) actually be built. And, if the residents of Eboracum Way think they deserve them, why can't we have traffic lights at EVERY road junction in York? It's not like their road into Heworth Green is York's busiest non-signalled junction.[/p][/quote]James Street Connection - Is that like the song L.A. Connection by the band Rainbow on the seminal 78' album "Long Live Rock 'n' Roll"? Given that the traffic lights have been hooded for so long, I'm surprised CiPlod of Fulford nick haven't been down to move them on. That or a Neighbourhood Witch scheme has been started because of the 'Hoodies' in which case, expect them to be burnt soon. ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

10:40am Mon 18 Feb 13

pedalling paul says...

Whistlejacket wrote:
Be careful what you wish for. It's usually the case that, when the traffic lights fail at a junction, the traffic flow is dramatically improved. Most drivers are courteous and intelligent enough to negotiate a junction in cooperation with those around them. A more interesting experiment would be to turn off all the traffic lights from 7PM - 7AM.
Be careful what YOU wish for....! Courtesy toward other motorists is not always extended to more vulnerable residents who have to travel along or safely cross this road. As the article points out, "flowing" traffic is not to everyone's advantage.
CoYC's Transport Planners take account of everyone's needs, not just those of the motot vehicle drivers.
If you want to help solve tailbacks, visit York's iTravel website at http://www.itravelyo
rk.info/ for advice on ways that you can contribute.
[quote][p][bold]Whistlejacket[/bold] wrote: Be careful what you wish for. It's usually the case that, when the traffic lights fail at a junction, the traffic flow is dramatically improved. Most drivers are courteous and intelligent enough to negotiate a junction in cooperation with those around them. A more interesting experiment would be to turn off all the traffic lights from 7PM - 7AM.[/p][/quote]Be careful what YOU wish for....! Courtesy toward other motorists is not always extended to more vulnerable residents who have to travel along or safely cross this road. As the article points out, "flowing" traffic is not to everyone's advantage. CoYC's Transport Planners take account of everyone's needs, not just those of the motot vehicle drivers. If you want to help solve tailbacks, visit York's iTravel website at http://www.itravelyo rk.info/ for advice on ways that you can contribute. pedalling paul
  • Score: 0

12:16pm Mon 18 Feb 13

Pete the Brickie says...

I don't think there's sufficient traffic coming out of Morrisons four hours before it opens, going round Grimston Bar or the Hopgrove at midnight and leaving Wheldrake lane at Crocky Hill ever. But that has never made COYC apply an ounce of common sense and switch the traffic lights off when they aren't needed.
I don't think there's sufficient traffic coming out of Morrisons four hours before it opens, going round Grimston Bar or the Hopgrove at midnight and leaving Wheldrake lane at Crocky Hill ever. But that has never made COYC apply an ounce of common sense and switch the traffic lights off when they aren't needed. Pete the Brickie
  • Score: 0

12:24pm Mon 18 Feb 13

over 9000 says...

The junction is at present an absolute death trap for pedestrians. Traffic moving out into Heworth Green is cautious as they are moving into a busy road, but too many vehicles moving IN to Eboracum way do so usually without indicating, most of the time too quickly, and often with poor regard for the road markings.
The junction is at present an absolute death trap for pedestrians. Traffic moving out into Heworth Green is cautious as they are moving into a busy road, but too many vehicles moving IN to Eboracum way do so usually without indicating, most of the time too quickly, and often with poor regard for the road markings. over 9000
  • Score: 0

12:33pm Mon 18 Feb 13

P3TER1 says...

As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it. P3TER1
  • Score: 0

12:42pm Mon 18 Feb 13

PKH says...

P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
Courteousness only last so long when traffic lights are out, the longer they are out the less courteous drivers become as they get used to the junction with no lights.
[quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]Courteousness only last so long when traffic lights are out, the longer they are out the less courteous drivers become as they get used to the junction with no lights. PKH
  • Score: 0

12:59pm Mon 18 Feb 13

over 9000 says...

P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
So according to your statement, traffic lights are the most common cause of people climbing into their cars and starting to drive...
[quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]So according to your statement, traffic lights are the most common cause of people climbing into their cars and starting to drive... over 9000
  • Score: 0

1:20pm Mon 18 Feb 13

pedalling paul says...

"Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it...........”
What a load of twaddle from P3TER 1.
Traffic consists of lots of people making lots of motorised and human powered journeys. Traffic lights ensure fair use of capacity and also help those on foot to safely cross highways.
If you want to get some priority as a road user, try the bus. They are all being fitted with transponders to identify them to York's traffic control computer which can be programmed to give them more green time. http://www.scoot-utc
.com/ if you want to learn more about the technology.
"Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it...........” What a load of twaddle from P3TER 1. Traffic consists of lots of people making lots of motorised and human powered journeys. Traffic lights ensure fair use of capacity and also help those on foot to safely cross highways. If you want to get some priority as a road user, try the bus. They are all being fitted with transponders to identify them to York's traffic control computer which can be programmed to give them more green time. http://www.scoot-utc .com/ if you want to learn more about the technology. pedalling paul
  • Score: 0

1:21pm Mon 18 Feb 13

Priapus says...

P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
[quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Priapus
  • Score: 0

2:09pm Mon 18 Feb 13

yawn.. says...

****... and I was just thinking.. 'what York could really use is another ill phased set of traffic lights'.. ****..!
****... and I was just thinking.. 'what York could really use is another ill phased set of traffic lights'.. ****..! yawn..
  • Score: 0

2:27pm Mon 18 Feb 13

Pete the Brickie says...

Priapus wrote:
P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".


Priapus says...
1:21pm Mon 18 Feb 13

You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".”



I don't mean to be funny, but can you give me an actual instance when a gun killed anybody without a human loading and firing it at them first?
[quote][p][bold]Priapus[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".[/p][/quote][quote] Priapus says... 1:21pm Mon 18 Feb 13 You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".” [/quote] I don't mean to be funny, but can you give me an actual instance when a gun killed anybody without a human loading and firing it at them first? Pete the Brickie
  • Score: 0

2:38pm Mon 18 Feb 13

Mulgrave says...

I wonder what the situation will be in 10 years from now, we are obviously going to end up with a 20 mph city, but will future councils see this as an opportunity to save money by not installing/maintaini
ng/replacing green man crossing facilities and traffic light controlled junctions on the basis that at the reduced speed they are not neccessary? I don't think the two ideas work side by side, for example Scarcroft Road has a green man crossing at each end and a further two along its length but has been designated 20 mph, I recall Cllr Semlyen saying something about 30mph making the elderly prisoners in their homes as they couldn't get across the road!. In further so called consultations on the issue it may be a case of 'be careful what you wish for, you may get it' , I believe most of the wide area 30 kph (18.5mph) limits in Germany etc, used to justify introduction here, don't have such good pedestrian facilities as we do.
I wonder what the situation will be in 10 years from now, we are obviously going to end up with a 20 mph city, but will future councils see this as an opportunity to save money by not installing/maintaini ng/replacing green man crossing facilities and traffic light controlled junctions on the basis that at the reduced speed they are not neccessary? I don't think the two ideas work side by side, for example Scarcroft Road has a green man crossing at each end and a further two along its length but has been designated 20 mph, I recall Cllr Semlyen saying something about 30mph making the elderly prisoners in their homes as they couldn't get across the road!. In further so called consultations on the issue it may be a case of 'be careful what you wish for, you may get it' , I believe most of the wide area 30 kph (18.5mph) limits in Germany etc, used to justify introduction here, don't have such good pedestrian facilities as we do. Mulgrave
  • Score: 0

3:00pm Mon 18 Feb 13

NoMorePlease says...

P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
I hope you do not have control of a car with stupid thinking like that. When a known traffic light is out we all are extra cautious, but just give it time.
[quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]I hope you do not have control of a car with stupid thinking like that. When a known traffic light is out we all are extra cautious, but just give it time. NoMorePlease
  • Score: 0

3:23pm Mon 18 Feb 13

monkeyhanger says...

I used to work at Apollo House(Eboracum way) and it was easy enough to get out of junction to the right,however if it was really busy, went left, round the roundabout and back up.No real issue.Once the link road opens,I imagine it will be v busy at peak times.Take some pressure of Heworth Road I guess.
I used to work at Apollo House(Eboracum way) and it was easy enough to get out of junction to the right,however if it was really busy, went left, round the roundabout and back up.No real issue.Once the link road opens,I imagine it will be v busy at peak times.Take some pressure of Heworth Road I guess. monkeyhanger
  • Score: 0

4:51pm Mon 18 Feb 13

manfromuncle says...

I travel this route in and out of the city everyday during peak times, there definately is no need for these lights to be switched on right now there simply isn't the traffic to warrant them.
I travel this route in and out of the city everyday during peak times, there definately is no need for these lights to be switched on right now there simply isn't the traffic to warrant them. manfromuncle
  • Score: 0

6:15pm Mon 18 Feb 13

york_chap says...

People who are unable to make a simple turn out of a side road without assistance shouldn't be on the roads in the first place. People manage to turn out of Lowther Street without traffic lights and that junction is 50 x busier.

There are countless unnecessary sets of traffic lights in York, like the ones at the CPP junction on Holgate Road and those at the Park and Ride junction on Shipton Road. If necessary, install a green-man crossing which changes on demand, rather than automatically every few seconds. We do not need more lights turned on.

Aside from the extra fuel consumption these unnecessary traffic lights cause which only hit motorists' pockets, they also cause more pollution and cost a fortune in wasted electricity.
People who are unable to make a simple turn out of a side road without assistance shouldn't be on the roads in the first place. People manage to turn out of Lowther Street without traffic lights and that junction is 50 x busier. There are countless unnecessary sets of traffic lights in York, like the ones at the CPP junction on Holgate Road and those at the Park and Ride junction on Shipton Road. If necessary, install a green-man crossing which changes on demand, rather than automatically every few seconds. We do not need more lights turned on. Aside from the extra fuel consumption these unnecessary traffic lights cause which only hit motorists' pockets, they also cause more pollution and cost a fortune in wasted electricity. york_chap
  • Score: 0

6:55pm Mon 18 Feb 13

york100 says...

I am more upset about the hi tech information signs at each of the city approaches. They must have cost council taxpayers a fortune but now seem to be falling into disuse even when major road disruptions, like the recent floods, occur.
I am more upset about the hi tech information signs at each of the city approaches. They must have cost council taxpayers a fortune but now seem to be falling into disuse even when major road disruptions, like the recent floods, occur. york100
  • Score: 0

9:11pm Mon 18 Feb 13

DEKKA says...

pedalling paul wrote:
"Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it...........”
What a load of twaddle from P3TER 1.
Traffic consists of lots of people making lots of motorised and human powered journeys. Traffic lights ensure fair use of capacity and also help those on foot to safely cross highways.
If you want to get some priority as a road user, try the bus. They are all being fitted with transponders to identify them to York's traffic control computer which can be programmed to give them more green time. http://www.scoot-utc

.com/ if you want to learn more about the technology.
you mean like trying to cross the 5 lane super highway that was formally know as Blossom Street?
[quote][p][bold]pedalling paul [/bold] wrote: "Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it...........” What a load of twaddle from P3TER 1. Traffic consists of lots of people making lots of motorised and human powered journeys. Traffic lights ensure fair use of capacity and also help those on foot to safely cross highways. If you want to get some priority as a road user, try the bus. They are all being fitted with transponders to identify them to York's traffic control computer which can be programmed to give them more green time. http://www.scoot-utc .com/ if you want to learn more about the technology.[/p][/quote]you mean like trying to cross the 5 lane super highway that was formally know as Blossom Street? DEKKA
  • Score: 0

10:52pm Mon 18 Feb 13

pedalling paul says...

Pedalling pedant time again......you surely mean "formerly" rather than "formally".
Pedalling pedant time again......you surely mean "formerly" rather than "formally". pedalling paul
  • Score: 0

11:20pm Mon 18 Feb 13

akaroa says...

Blossom St is a disgrace, another whim of unknowing councillors well versed in all things theoretica / practical, relating to traffic management and control.
Blossom St is a disgrace, another whim of unknowing councillors well versed in all things theoretica / practical, relating to traffic management and control. akaroa
  • Score: 0

12:02am Tue 19 Feb 13

Mark-In-Acomb says...

What Blossom Street needs is a pedestrian island between The Windmill and BSM.
What Blossom Street needs is a pedestrian island between The Windmill and BSM. Mark-In-Acomb
  • Score: 0

1:33am Tue 19 Feb 13

Magicman! says...

Blossom street is the result of the council doing a consultation, then not listening to what the people who responded to the consultation actually wanted. Also, still waiting on that yellow 'no waiting' box to be painted under Micklegate Bar - as was promised for taking away the cycle safety measures elsewhere on the junction.

Anyway, this Heworth junction doesn't need traffic lights. ever. Even when the road link is finally built the traffic flows and movements would merit a roundabout better, as there would be a balanced flow of traffic from all entrances turning to the right to block one flow of traffic and thereby allowing another exit to flow. This would also be the same of the James Street and Layerthorpe junction. I for one am getting sick of getting to the top of the hill from the Foss Bank junction, getting about 6 meters from the traffic lights and they go red FOR ONE CAR TURNING LEFT out of james street. You do not need traffic lights for this, most of the time that left-turning vehicle would have a much quicker journey if there was a roundabout there because he wouldn't be waiting at a red traffic light while there's literally nothing coming from the right to obstruct his turn left to head to the city centre.
Blossom street is the result of the council doing a consultation, then not listening to what the people who responded to the consultation actually wanted. Also, still waiting on that yellow 'no waiting' box to be painted under Micklegate Bar - as was promised for taking away the cycle safety measures elsewhere on the junction. Anyway, this Heworth junction doesn't need traffic lights. ever. Even when the road link is finally built the traffic flows and movements would merit a roundabout better, as there would be a balanced flow of traffic from all entrances turning to the right to block one flow of traffic and thereby allowing another exit to flow. This would also be the same of the James Street and Layerthorpe junction. I for one am getting sick of getting to the top of the hill from the Foss Bank junction, getting about 6 meters from the traffic lights and they go red FOR ONE CAR TURNING LEFT out of james street. You do not need traffic lights for this, most of the time that left-turning vehicle would have a much quicker journey if there was a roundabout there because he wouldn't be waiting at a red traffic light while there's literally nothing coming from the right to obstruct his turn left to head to the city centre. Magicman!
  • Score: 0

7:29am Tue 19 Feb 13

pedalling paul says...

Blossom St would benefit from a collapsible bollard between inbound and outbound sides at the Micklegate Bar end. That would deter right turning outbound drivers from North St from overrunning the inbound cyclists advance stop area.As an outbound Cyclist in lane 2, I've had no end of dangerous overtakes there.Now I use the station car park route to Holgate Road if my destination
lies in that direction.
Blossom St would benefit from a collapsible bollard between inbound and outbound sides at the Micklegate Bar end. That would deter right turning outbound drivers from North St from overrunning the inbound cyclists advance stop area.As an outbound Cyclist in lane 2, I've had no end of dangerous overtakes there.Now I use the station car park route to Holgate Road if my destination lies in that direction. pedalling paul
  • Score: 0

8:36am Tue 19 Feb 13

DEKKA says...

pedalling paul wrote:
Blossom St would benefit from a collapsible bollard between inbound and outbound sides at the Micklegate Bar end. That would deter right turning outbound drivers from North St from overrunning the inbound cyclists advance stop area.As an outbound Cyclist in lane 2, I've had no end of dangerous overtakes there.Now I use the station car park route to Holgate Road if my destination
lies in that direction.
North St?..do you mean Queen St?. The main problem there is drivers ignoring the Queen St lights once they turn red and trying to mow down cyclists leaving the Micklegate advanced stop area.
[quote][p][bold]pedalling paul [/bold] wrote: Blossom St would benefit from a collapsible bollard between inbound and outbound sides at the Micklegate Bar end. That would deter right turning outbound drivers from North St from overrunning the inbound cyclists advance stop area.As an outbound Cyclist in lane 2, I've had no end of dangerous overtakes there.Now I use the station car park route to Holgate Road if my destination lies in that direction.[/p][/quote]North St?..do you mean Queen St?. The main problem there is drivers ignoring the Queen St lights once they turn red and trying to mow down cyclists leaving the Micklegate advanced stop area. DEKKA
  • Score: 0

8:38am Tue 19 Feb 13

ouseswimmer says...

I had a similar problem when I lived here, The best solution was to turn left and go around the roundabout. Each set of Traffic Lights cost £10,000 a year to maintain. York could easily turn off half of them and save Millions. They aren't needed.
I had a similar problem when I lived here, The best solution was to turn left and go around the roundabout. Each set of Traffic Lights cost £10,000 a year to maintain. York could easily turn off half of them and save Millions. They aren't needed. ouseswimmer
  • Score: 0

9:58am Tue 19 Feb 13

chrisbrown8370 says...

I live in one of the blocks of flats on Eboracum Way. There is no need for traffic lights at the junction whatsoever.

As a few posters have mentioned there is a roundabout at the bottom of Heworth Green one can use to turn right if the traffic is too busy.

Sounds to me like Stuart Moody has far too much time on his hands!!

The traffic coming in and out of Eboracum Way is very light as well and any pedestrian with half a brain should be able to successfully negotiate their way across the crossings.
I live in one of the blocks of flats on Eboracum Way. There is no need for traffic lights at the junction whatsoever. As a few posters have mentioned there is a roundabout at the bottom of Heworth Green one can use to turn right if the traffic is too busy. Sounds to me like Stuart Moody has far too much time on his hands!! The traffic coming in and out of Eboracum Way is very light as well and any pedestrian with half a brain should be able to successfully negotiate their way across the crossings. chrisbrown8370
  • Score: 0

11:59am Tue 19 Feb 13

Oncebitten says...

Priapus wrote:
P3TER1 wrote:
As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.
You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
To be fair....it is people not guns!

Not your best argument!
[quote][p][bold]Priapus[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]P3TER1[/bold] wrote: As with the post above, when traffic lights are switched off traffic flows much better, drivers are generally more courteous. Traffic lights don’t control traffic, they cause it.[/p][/quote]You're probably one of those people who also believe that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".[/p][/quote]To be fair....it is people not guns! Not your best argument! Oncebitten
  • Score: 0

12:39am Wed 20 Feb 13

daveyboy25 says...

Leave them off
Leave them off daveyboy25
  • Score: 0

Comments are closed on this article.

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