Norovirus crisis at York Hospital easing (From York Press)

Seen over the weekend, even after much publicity - people visiting the hospital accompanied by young children. Why would you take little kids anywhere near? I just do not understand the mentality.

The authorities will deny or avoid a straight answer regarding this. But if the cleaned the place properly, the vast amount of infections would not be present. They may talk about the infections becoming immune to detergents, but how would they know when the place is filthy. Cost cutting has its price.

Northern bloke wrote:
The authorities will deny or avoid a straight answer regarding this. But if the cleaned the place properly, the vast amount of infections would not be present. They may talk about the infections becoming immune to detergents, but how would they know when the place is filthy. Cost cutting has its price.

Misinformed and just wrong. Norovirus is brought into the hospital by people who have contracted it in the community and have become seriously dehydrated (usually the very elderly) and have been sent into hospital for IV treatment not available at home.

inthesticks wrote:

Northern bloke wrote:
The authorities will deny or avoid a straight answer regarding this. But if the cleaned the place properly, the vast amount of infections would not be present. They may talk about the infections becoming immune to detergents, but how would they know when the place is filthy. Cost cutting has its price.

Misinformed and just wrong. Norovirus is brought into the hospital by people who have contracted it in the community and have become seriously dehydrated (usually the very elderly) and have been sent into hospital for IV treatment not available at home.

I suspect you are thinking of bacterial infections that are resistant to antibiotics like cdiff. Norovirus (or any virus) isn`t treated with antibiotics.

Lack of cleanliness is a factor in all infection, if not directly then by the fact that protocols and procedures are obviously not effective or being applied effectively.
The ability to isolate or barrier nurse those with potential infections or viruses, could reduce infections or cross infection to others.
The place is still filthy whatever the reason for the Norovirus.

Northern bloke wrote:
Lack of cleanliness is a factor in all infection, if not directly then by the fact that protocols and procedures are obviously not effective or being applied effectively.
The ability to isolate or barrier nurse those with potential infections or viruses, could reduce infections or cross infection to others.
The place is still filthy whatever the reason for the Norovirus.

Don`t agree, most people`s homes are dirtier. Have you ever caught a virus from a person in your own family - would you then say that your home is filthy and that is the reason?
Plus there is no other comparable situation to a hospital full of sick people than another hospital full of sick people.
In an ideal world (in a hospital) everyone would have their own room, every staff member would shower and change clothes in between seeing to every patient, patients coming in would not have to be taken through a corridor or lift that other people use, every visitor would be quarantined before entry to wards - sounds daft because it is daft - there is only so much you can do to prevent cross infection.

inthesticks wrote:

Northern bloke wrote:
Lack of cleanliness is a factor in all infection, if not directly then by the fact that protocols and procedures are obviously not effective or being applied effectively.
The ability to isolate or barrier nurse those with potential infections or viruses, could reduce infections or cross infection to others.
The place is still filthy whatever the reason for the Norovirus.

Don`t agree, most people`s homes are dirtier. Have you ever caught a virus from a person in your own family - would you then say that your home is filthy and that is the reason?
Plus there is no other comparable situation to a hospital full of sick people than another hospital full of sick people.
In an ideal world (in a hospital) everyone would have their own room, every staff member would shower and change clothes in between seeing to every patient, patients coming in would not have to be taken through a corridor or lift that other people use, every visitor would be quarantined before entry to wards - sounds daft because it is daft - there is only so much you can do to prevent cross infection.

Most peoples homes are not splattered with other peoples blood and feces. Which the elderly wards were a few years ago maybe they have improved now so I cant comment on that.

Simply washing your hands and sneezing into a handkerchief prevents allot of viruses. Having the unfortunate task of attending York hospital on a regular basis over the last 6 months, out patients and visitors are not reminded to sanitize their hands like before.
I am not a Doctor or pretend to be, but I am sure Norovirus could be controlled allot better by the hospital.
I suppose it is down to cost, one nurse permanently at the entrance of every ward reminding visitors. Not likely or practical.
York NHS trust is a joke, staff running around like headless chickens, underpaid, overworked.
Bring back the ward sisters again, that HAD clout and responsibility, basically managing their ward. Get rid of the managers to the managers and administrators to the administrators, the list goes on. Back to common sense caring and nursing would save millions of pounds and let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets.

yorkborn66 wrote:
Simply washing your hands and sneezing into a handkerchief prevents allot of viruses. Having the unfortunate task of attending York hospital on a regular basis over the last 6 months, out patients and visitors are not reminded to sanitize their hands like before.
I am not a Doctor or pretend to be, but I am sure Norovirus could be controlled allot better by the hospital.
I suppose it is down to cost, one nurse permanently at the entrance of every ward reminding visitors. Not likely or practical.
York NHS trust is a joke, staff running around like headless chickens, underpaid, overworked.
Bring back the ward sisters again, that HAD clout and responsibility, basically managing their ward. Get rid of the managers to the managers and administrators to the administrators, the list goes on. Back to common sense caring and nursing would save millions of pounds and let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets.

So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets. Who controls the costs? Is that the ward sister or the orderlies? Or is it just an uncontrolled free for all?

yorkborn66 wrote:
Simply washing your hands and sneezing into a handkerchief prevents allot of viruses. Having the unfortunate task of attending York hospital on a regular basis over the last 6 months, out patients and visitors are not reminded to sanitize their hands like before.
I am not a Doctor or pretend to be, but I am sure Norovirus could be controlled allot better by the hospital.
I suppose it is down to cost, one nurse permanently at the entrance of every ward reminding visitors. Not likely or practical.
York NHS trust is a joke, staff running around like headless chickens, underpaid, overworked.
Bring back the ward sisters again, that HAD clout and responsibility, basically managing their ward. Get rid of the managers to the managers and administrators to the administrators, the list goes on. Back to common sense caring and nursing would save millions of pounds and let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets.

I take your points but do people really need reminding to wash or sanitise hands? Should someone be paid a wage to stand around telling people this basic knowledge when that wage should be used to care for patients? Like you conceded it just isn`t on.
People sanitising hands will not kill Norovirus, as I said earlier it is taken in by ill people who need care and people going in to visit who are not over their symptoms. Imagine pressing the button in the lift - how many people will press that button after you that day, then go onto a ward.
A relative of mine would have to be very ill for me to visit at the moment.

Paul Meoff wrote:

yorkborn66 wrote:
Simply washing your hands and sneezing into a handkerchief prevents allot of viruses. Having the unfortunate task of attending York hospital on a regular basis over the last 6 months, out patients and visitors are not reminded to sanitize their hands like before.
I am not a Doctor or pretend to be, but I am sure Norovirus could be controlled allot better by the hospital.
I suppose it is down to cost, one nurse permanently at the entrance of every ward reminding visitors. Not likely or practical.
York NHS trust is a joke, staff running around like headless chickens, underpaid, overworked.
Bring back the ward sisters again, that HAD clout and responsibility, basically managing their ward. Get rid of the managers to the managers and administrators to the administrators, the list goes on. Back to common sense caring and nursing would save millions of pounds and let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets.

So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets. Who controls the costs? Is that the ward sister or the orderlies? Or is it just an uncontrolled free for all?

Paul Meoff says :
Or is it just an uncontrolled free for all?


If you remove the fat cats from the NHS, then it would be more efficient and cost effective. You would not trust a nurse or a doctor to repair you car, or home without professional qualifications would you? So why are we tax payers paying for people without medical qualifications to make decisions in our Hospitals, financial and medical?
The government (and Previous) has completely failed to understand the NHS, highlighted as an example in recent news

Paul Meoff says :
So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets.



Yes they do! , They are accountable to the budget set to their department or ward I said the administrators to the administrators and the managers to the managers, Not get rid of the administrators and managers.

yorkborn66 wrote:
Paul Meoff says :
So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets.



Yes they do! , They are accountable to the budget set to their department or ward I said the administrators to the administrators and the managers to the managers, Not get rid of the administrators and managers.

Make your mind up. One minute you are saying "let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets". Next minute they are accountable to the budget. They are either involved in the financial aspects or they are not.

Like it or not, a £104bn NHS budget needs managing. That's 3 times the MoD budget which, by the same logic would be left to a few officers to manage. Unfortunately the fat cats capable of managing such budgets are in demand and cost a lot to employ.

Paul Meoff wrote:

yorkborn66 wrote:
Paul Meoff says :
So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets.



Yes they do! , They are accountable to the budget set to their department or ward I said the administrators to the administrators and the managers to the managers, Not get rid of the administrators and managers.

Make your mind up. One minute you are saying "let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets". Next minute they are accountable to the budget. They are either involved in the financial aspects or they are not.

Like it or not, a £104bn NHS budget needs managing. That's 3 times the MoD budget which, by the same logic would be left to a few officers to manage. Unfortunately the fat cats capable of managing such budgets are in demand and cost a lot to employ.

Presently, Consultants and Doctors have to make medical decisions based on budgets rather than the best treatment available for their patients. Hospital managers are struggling to balance the books nationally.
This will obviously impact on medical or financial decisions.
How much could be saved if the top 2 levels of every NHS trust/organization in the country were removed to be centrally managed?

yorkborn66 wrote:

Paul Meoff wrote:

yorkborn66 wrote:
Paul Meoff says :
So the managers and the administrators go. The doctors and consultants don't worry about the balance sheets.



Yes they do! , They are accountable to the budget set to their department or ward I said the administrators to the administrators and the managers to the managers, Not get rid of the administrators and managers.

Make your mind up. One minute you are saying "let the doctors and consultants do their job instead of looking at balance sheets". Next minute they are accountable to the budget. They are either involved in the financial aspects or they are not.

Like it or not, a £104bn NHS budget needs managing. That's 3 times the MoD budget which, by the same logic would be left to a few officers to manage. Unfortunately the fat cats capable of managing such budgets are in demand and cost a lot to employ.

Presently, Consultants and Doctors have to make medical decisions based on budgets rather than the best treatment available for their patients. Hospital managers are struggling to balance the books nationally.
This will obviously impact on medical or financial decisions.
How much could be saved if the top 2 levels of every NHS trust/organization in the country were removed to be centrally managed?

Don't know the answer to your question regarding how much could be saved taking the 2 top levels out but I'm sure that would mean a lot of people with budgets they had no experience of controlling.

Have you come up with an organisational design for managing a £204bn budget taking into account spans of control and how much budget each person can reasonably control? Unless you have done so, how can you conclude layers can be taken out of the organisation?

Without the analysis, design and restructuring (which that is invariably the domain of expensive
consultancies) any suggestion that layers can be removed is ill-informed speculation.