York campaigners vow to continue fight for return of Richard III

A reconstruction of the face of King Richard III

A reconstruction of the face of King Richard III

Published in News York Press: Photograph of the Author by

CITY leaders have vowed to continue the fight to bring the remains of Richard III to York – despite the Minster stating it does not want them.

Remains found under a car park in Leicester were confirmed this week as those of the Yorkist King and, amid international debate, more than 12,000 people signed a petition to bring his remains to York Minster from Leicester. A similar petition for Leicester has attracted more than 4,000 signatures.

Campaigners yesterday suffered a setback after the Minster said it believed his remains should be interred at Leicester Cathedral.

However, City of York Council chief executive Kersten England and leader James Alexander said they will continue with their campaign.

Coun Alexander said: “While we acknowledge the sensitivities and delicacy of this matter, we have a duty to reflect the voice of the people of York, King Richard III’s descendants and academic opinion.”

He said the council had written to the Crown and the Ministry of Justice. He said: “Whatever the outcome, we would want a lasting memorial to this last Yorkist monarch in his spiritual home.”

Mrs England said they hoped to forge a closer relationship with Leicester to develop “the legacy of rediscovering Richard”.

A Minster spokesman said: “The Chapter of York understands the strong feeling of some people in York and Yorkshire that Richard III is significant to the history of the county and that therefore his body ought to be returned.

“York Minster itself has a window in his memory and many reminders of Richard’s place in our story.

“However, the recent verification of the identity of his remains follows a significant period in which Leicester and Leicestershire gained a sense of Richard belonging there, at least in death. It was Leicester Franciscans who gave him burial, and the cathedral has a major memorial to his memory at its heart. When the possibility of an excavation of the Greyfriars site began, it was agreed from the start that any remains found would be reinterred in Leicester. When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral. Since the news of the finding last year local people, like the people of York, have expressed a very strong wish that Richard, who has been with them since 1485, should stay in their keeping.

“The Chapter supports the terms of the Ministry of Justice licence and the wish of Chapter of Leicester that Richard should be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral. The Chapter of York commends Richard to Leicester’s care and to the cathedral community’s prayers.”

The Lord Mayor of York, Keith Hyman, and York Outer MP Julilan Sturdy have also written to the Queen and Ministry of Justice asking for Richard III to be buried in York.

The letter argues that the King’s remains should be reinterred in York, according to his lifetime’s wish, and not where he was killed in battle near Leicester.

Comments (40)

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11:00am Fri 8 Feb 13

roskoboskovic says...

why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now. roskoboskovic
  • Score: 0

11:25am Fri 8 Feb 13

offa says...

I'm a "middle class type" having come proudly from a Brummie working-class background. I've studied Our Good King Richard's life and times since 1964. So bury your ignorant rubbish Roskoboskovic, which will be forgotten, while we work to ensure that Richard can come home
I'm a "middle class type" having come proudly from a Brummie working-class background. I've studied Our Good King Richard's life and times since 1964. So bury your ignorant rubbish Roskoboskovic, which will be forgotten, while we work to ensure that Richard can come home offa
  • Score: 0

11:35am Fri 8 Feb 13

morriarty says...

Keep on campaigning folks, Richard was the last true Northern king and it is just wrong that his wish to be buried in York should be ignored after the treatment his remains received at Tudor's hands. We cannot sit back and let him Dickon our master be bought and sold again, so sign the epetition if you've not yet done so.
Keep on campaigning folks, Richard was the last true Northern king and it is just wrong that his wish to be buried in York should be ignored after the treatment his remains received at Tudor's hands. We cannot sit back and let him Dickon our master be bought and sold again, so sign the epetition if you've not yet done so. morriarty
  • Score: 0

11:54am Fri 8 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

Would anyone give historical references that it wa Richard's wish to be busried in York, not just hearsay.
Would anyone give historical references that it wa Richard's wish to be busried in York, not just hearsay. Omega Point
  • Score: 0

12:02pm Fri 8 Feb 13

whitehorse says...

I'm with Omega Point. So far we've seen the opinion of an emminent historian- Professor Pollard- but nobody can quote an actual documented authority. This is fairly important- especially as we have some div at the council writing about it to the MoJ and the Queen. How can we state what Richard wished without this vital piece of evidence.
I'm with Omega Point. So far we've seen the opinion of an emminent historian- Professor Pollard- but nobody can quote an actual documented authority. This is fairly important- especially as we have some div at the council writing about it to the MoJ and the Queen. How can we state what Richard wished without this vital piece of evidence. whitehorse
  • Score: 0

12:35pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Pete the Brickie says...

Recently this council has increased council tax to make a political point, failed to mend pot holes in its roads and maintain refuse collections over the Christmas period, I'm all for our heritage being maintained but I do wish Kirsten England and James Alexander would cease campaigns like this until they are performing the more basic parts of their roles adequately in between beanos to the continent, China and moke ups of ITV female panel shows.
Recently this council has increased council tax to make a political point, failed to mend pot holes in its roads and maintain refuse collections over the Christmas period, I'm all for our heritage being maintained but I do wish Kirsten England and James Alexander would cease campaigns like this until they are performing the more basic parts of their roles adequately in between beanos to the continent, China and moke ups of ITV female panel shows. Pete the Brickie
  • Score: 0

12:39pm Fri 8 Feb 13

ReginaldBiscuit says...

If King Richard's wish was to be buried in York, then what is the problem with honouring what he wanted? As far as Leicester goes, they buried him in a Lancastrian supporting church and forgot about him for hundreds of years.

Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter.

Reg

BTW - Overheard in the pub last night. When Philippa Langley (the woman with the crush on the skeleton) walked into the room with her eyes shut and opened them to look at Richard's recreated face, wouldn't it have been fun if it was the head from Lionel Richie's 'Hello' video. :-D
If King Richard's wish was to be buried in York, then what is the problem with honouring what he wanted? As far as Leicester goes, they buried him in a Lancastrian supporting church and forgot about him for hundreds of years. Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter. Reg BTW - Overheard in the pub last night. When Philippa Langley (the woman with the crush on the skeleton) walked into the room with her eyes shut and opened them to look at Richard's recreated face, wouldn't it have been fun if it was the head from Lionel Richie's 'Hello' video. :-D ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

12:55pm Fri 8 Feb 13

whitehorse says...

How many other people have died in battle but are buried where they fell. Hey, I have an idea, let's dig up half of Northern France! Is the argument any different in this case? How many of those who fell in the first and second world wars would have 'wished' to be buried back in York. They are no less associated with the city.
How many other people have died in battle but are buried where they fell. Hey, I have an idea, let's dig up half of Northern France! Is the argument any different in this case? How many of those who fell in the first and second world wars would have 'wished' to be buried back in York. They are no less associated with the city. whitehorse
  • Score: 0

1:06pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

"Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter."


Main question: what has her gender to do with anything?

As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found.
.
"Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. . Omega Point
  • Score: 0

1:25pm Fri 8 Feb 13

ReginaldBiscuit says...

Omega Point wrote:
"Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter."


Main question: what has her gender to do with anything?

As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found.
.
I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role.

She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried.
[quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: "Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. .[/p][/quote]I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role. She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried. ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

1:31pm Fri 8 Feb 13

PKH says...

From. what I heard on the BBC, the minster is only honouring the agreement it made which helped to get permission for the dig which found the body, namely that the body if found should be buried in Leicester, which is totally different to the way the media is portraying the situation.
From. what I heard on the BBC, the minster is only honouring the agreement it made which helped to get permission for the dig which found the body, namely that the body if found should be buried in Leicester, which is totally different to the way the media is portraying the situation. PKH
  • Score: 0

1:51pm Fri 8 Feb 13

CHISSY1 says...

roskoboskovic wrote:
why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".
[quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do". CHISSY1
  • Score: 0

2:09pm Fri 8 Feb 13

whitehorse says...

CHISSY1 wrote:
roskoboskovic wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".
Oh- and 10,000 people who signed a petition...
[quote][p][bold]CHISSY1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".[/p][/quote]Oh- and 10,000 people who signed a petition... whitehorse
  • Score: 0

2:09pm Fri 8 Feb 13

AngryandFrustrated says...

CHISSY1 wrote:
roskoboskovic wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".
A miracle has occurred!! I agree with you Chissy!

If England and Alexander have nothing better to do, then so be it. However, they do it in their own time and at their own expense. I for one do not want any of my increased council tax spending on this ill-fated campaign, that doesn't have the support of the church they want to bury him in, at a time when front line services and grants are being cut.

I could almost stomach their lecherous attempts to bring Richard to York if they had one ounce of historical knowledge or any personal belief in this story and had been campaigning for years. However, they don't - this has nothing to do with Richard of York and has everything to do with money, money, money. The great gravy train of corporate greed.

It is an argument that will not be won. Because of the great gravy train of corporate greed, we have more chance of our councillors giving up all their expenses for a year than the city of Leicester and the Uni giving us Richard's remains.

Stop wasting time and resources on stupity England and Alexander and turn your efforts to sorting out the roads, care for the vulnerable and everything else that has been left to fester due to your cuts.
[quote][p][bold]CHISSY1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".[/p][/quote]A miracle has occurred!! I agree with you Chissy! If England and Alexander have nothing better to do, then so be it. However, they do it in their own time and at their own expense. I for one do not want any of my increased council tax spending on this ill-fated campaign, that doesn't have the support of the church they want to bury him in, at a time when front line services and grants are being cut. I could almost stomach their lecherous attempts to bring Richard to York if they had one ounce of historical knowledge or any personal belief in this story and had been campaigning for years. However, they don't - this has nothing to do with Richard of York and has everything to do with money, money, money. The great gravy train of corporate greed. It is an argument that will not be won. Because of the great gravy train of corporate greed, we have more chance of our councillors giving up all their expenses for a year than the city of Leicester and the Uni giving us Richard's remains. Stop wasting time and resources on stupity England and Alexander and turn your efforts to sorting out the roads, care for the vulnerable and everything else that has been left to fester due to your cuts. AngryandFrustrated
  • Score: 0

2:19pm Fri 8 Feb 13

MouseHouse says...

If the these people have nothing better to do then fine. It does run in the blood of you yorkies to be obstinate. The bloke was there for hundreds of years, let him stay. It makes no difference to anybody.
If the these people have nothing better to do then fine. It does run in the blood of you yorkies to be obstinate. The bloke was there for hundreds of years, let him stay. It makes no difference to anybody. MouseHouse
  • Score: 0

3:29pm Fri 8 Feb 13

eeoodares says...

roskoboskovic wrote:
why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
Wow you are a bigot! Standing pointing your finger at other classes and trying to find ways to differentiate between them is pretty shoddy behaviour, and you should be ashamed of yourself!

As far as a pointless exercise, if this request makes national news and gets mentions in print, TV and Radio...how much would that be worth to raise the profile of the City? Or are you one of those moaning Yorkies who do not want tourists and visitors to the City?
[quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]Wow you are a bigot! Standing pointing your finger at other classes and trying to find ways to differentiate between them is pretty shoddy behaviour, and you should be ashamed of yourself! As far as a pointless exercise, if this request makes national news and gets mentions in print, TV and Radio...how much would that be worth to raise the profile of the City? Or are you one of those moaning Yorkies who do not want tourists and visitors to the City? eeoodares
  • Score: 0

4:08pm Fri 8 Feb 13

CHISSY1 says...

whitehorse wrote:
CHISSY1 wrote:
roskoboskovic wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".
Oh- and 10,000 people who signed a petition...
"10,000 anoraks".
[quote][p][bold]whitehorse[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CHISSY1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]"Could not agree more,let it drop nobody is interested only a handful of anoraks who have nothing better to do".[/p][/quote]Oh- and 10,000 people who signed a petition...[/p][/quote]"10,000 anoraks". CHISSY1
  • Score: 0

4:33pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Whitest Rose says...

I signed the online petition for Richard to be bought back to York Minster. As long as he comes back to Yorkshire does it have to be York Minster?

Ripon Cathedral would make a good resting place being near to Middleham and the resting place of his son.

The area around Middleham is steeped with history about Richard and there is even a cheese named after him.
I signed the online petition for Richard to be bought back to York Minster. As long as he comes back to Yorkshire does it have to be York Minster? Ripon Cathedral would make a good resting place being near to Middleham and the resting place of his son. The area around Middleham is steeped with history about Richard and there is even a cheese named after him. Whitest Rose
  • Score: 0

4:36pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Sillybillies says...

15,274 have signed the petition now. More please.
15,274 have signed the petition now. More please. Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

ReginaldBiscuit wrote:
Omega Point wrote: "Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. .
I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role. She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried.
If you have no issue with gender then why mention it?
Now her role as Dean of Leicester may have a part to play.
Where does creationist come in,it is nothing to do with the story here. There barking but no mention anywhere. Are you taking something?
[quote][p][bold]ReginaldBiscuit[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: "Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. .[/p][/quote]I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role. She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried.[/p][/quote]If you have no issue with gender then why mention it? Now her role as Dean of Leicester may have a part to play. Where does creationist come in,it is nothing to do with the story here. There barking but no mention anywhere. Are you taking something? Omega Point
  • Score: 0

4:52pm Fri 8 Feb 13

again says...

He'll be back!
He'll be back! again
  • Score: 0

5:11pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Whistlejacket says...

Now is the winter of our discontent
made deeper by this motley crew
who scheme to have our bones removed
and to the bosom of York minster sent

Alexander, aye well we know his strutting ilk
A babb'ling brook would counsel truer
his glorious schemes will come to nought
he'd make a pig's ear from a purse of silk

Be we rude stamp'd, or of proportion fair
This rose of York must lay by where it fell
Ere England speaks, let England hear
I'll be the last white rose, or man, in Leicester's square.

(Apologies to you know who)
Now is the winter of our discontent made deeper by this motley crew who scheme to have our bones removed and to the bosom of York minster sent Alexander, aye well we know his strutting ilk A babb'ling brook would counsel truer his glorious schemes will come to nought he'd make a pig's ear from a purse of silk Be we rude stamp'd, or of proportion fair This rose of York must lay by where it fell Ere England speaks, let England hear I'll be the last white rose, or man, in Leicester's square. (Apologies to you know who) Whistlejacket
  • Score: 0

6:14pm Fri 8 Feb 13

bob the builder says...

.. yet another example of a vanity project by the council elected leader and his appointed CEO. His Royal Highness was buried originally in a Leicester Priory so it is not unreasonable to re-inter him in Leicester Cathedral. This was all legally agreed and licenced prior to excavation, so how do our unqualified legal eagles think they overturn the original licence decision? Another example of time and money wasting, the sooner England is dismissed without a severance package and Alexander deposed similarly the better of York and it's residents will be. No doubt the duo from Tourism and the Chamber of Commerce will be jumping on the bandwagon. We have enough tourism thanks without stealing the corpse of a King. Were this lot graverobbers in a previous life - over to the press psychic...
.. yet another example of a vanity project by the council elected leader and his appointed CEO. His Royal Highness was buried originally in a Leicester Priory so it is not unreasonable to re-inter him in Leicester Cathedral. This was all legally agreed and licenced prior to excavation, so how do our unqualified legal eagles think they overturn the original licence decision? Another example of time and money wasting, the sooner England is dismissed without a severance package and Alexander deposed similarly the better of York and it's residents will be. No doubt the duo from Tourism and the Chamber of Commerce will be jumping on the bandwagon. We have enough tourism thanks without stealing the corpse of a King. Were this lot graverobbers in a previous life - over to the press psychic... bob the builder
  • Score: 0

6:19pm Fri 8 Feb 13

bloodaxe says...

roskoboskovic wrote:
why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.
If you bothered to read any history you would know that it it is the middle class which gets things done, including revolutions. The workers provide the muscle, the middle class provide the brains. Look at the French, English and Russian Revolutions. Oh, and don't run away with the idea that Mao Tze Dong was a simple peasant either. As for not giving "old rich" a thought, who do you think runs the Richard III Society ? The other thing that middle class types do is to begin a sentence with a capital letter and employ apostrophes where appropriate.
[quote][p][bold]roskoboskovic[/bold] wrote: why waste your time on this poinless exercise.another example of middle class types with too much time on their hands and who have probably never given old rich a thought over their lifetimes but are now seeking to make a fuss.we ve never had him here during the last 5 1/2 centuries so we wont be missing him now.[/p][/quote]If you bothered to read any history you would know that it it is the middle class which gets things done, including revolutions. The workers provide the muscle, the middle class provide the brains. Look at the French, English and Russian Revolutions. Oh, and don't run away with the idea that Mao Tze Dong was a simple peasant either. As for not giving "old rich" a thought, who do you think runs the Richard III Society ? The other thing that middle class types do is to begin a sentence with a capital letter and employ apostrophes where appropriate. bloodaxe
  • Score: 0

7:03pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Mork says...

The Leicester Franciscans buried him ?No they dumped him in a hole a forgot him it was not decent burial for anyone. Why not let his descendants decide they are his family are they not?
The Leicester Franciscans buried him ?No they dumped him in a hole a forgot him it was not decent burial for anyone. Why not let his descendants decide they are his family are they not? Mork
  • Score: 0

8:13pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Mrs Maniac says...

Does the reconstructed head look like Lord Farquaad from Shrek to anyone else? #isitjustme
Does the reconstructed head look like Lord Farquaad from Shrek to anyone else? #isitjustme Mrs Maniac
  • Score: 0

8:15pm Fri 8 Feb 13

again says...

"Descendants of King Richard III want his remains to be buried in York as "a matter of justice.""

"Charles Brunner, a descendent of Anne of York, Richard's sister, said: "We repatriate those who give their lives in battle, so why is this different?""

"Stephen Nicolay, the 16th great-grandson of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York (father of Richard III) said: "York and the county of Yorkshire was, and remains, the physical and spiritual home of King Richard III."

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/uk-england-yor
k-north-yorkshire-21
383950

I trust they have signed the petition:

http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/38772
"Descendants of King Richard III want his remains to be buried in York as "a matter of justice."" "Charles Brunner, a descendent of Anne of York, Richard's sister, said: "We repatriate those who give their lives in battle, so why is this different?"" "Stephen Nicolay, the 16th great-grandson of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York (father of Richard III) said: "York and the county of Yorkshire was, and remains, the physical and spiritual home of King Richard III." http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/uk-england-yor k-north-yorkshire-21 383950 I trust they have signed the petition: http://epetitions.di rect.gov.uk/petition s/38772 again
  • Score: 0

8:21pm Fri 8 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

My dear faithfull citizens of York...

Great to hear from you all again... been a long time... thought you had forgotten me, especially as i didn't see you at the big bash... can't remember much about it... must have been a good one though cause i've got a splitting headache!

The strangest thing happened... must have fallen asleep cause i was dreaming i was lying on a beach in the sun, and then the next thing i knew there's this blinding light and here i am back in Leicester...

And what a great place it is too...
Friendly people - almost sound Northern!
and as for the food, wow i've never had gruel like it... really spicy! great for clearing the mud out your ears...

Anyway guess what i'm trying to say is...

Thanks ever so much for the invite, but i think i'll stay here...
After all it is the "heart of England" and from here I can see all of my loyal subjects in the North, South, East & West...

But please do come and see me, be great to see you again, after all it's only down the M1 road thingy...

and the Mayor has already spent a huge amount of wonga on a new home for me...

Yours Kingly

Richard of Leicester! ;-) xx
My dear faithfull citizens of York... Great to hear from you all again... been a long time... thought you had forgotten me, especially as i didn't see you at the big bash... can't remember much about it... must have been a good one though cause i've got a splitting headache! The strangest thing happened... must have fallen asleep cause i was dreaming i was lying on a beach in the sun, and then the next thing i knew there's this blinding light and here i am back in Leicester... And what a great place it is too... Friendly people - almost sound Northern! and as for the food, wow i've never had gruel like it... really spicy! great for clearing the mud out your ears... Anyway guess what i'm trying to say is... Thanks ever so much for the invite, but i think i'll stay here... After all it is the "heart of England" and from here I can see all of my loyal subjects in the North, South, East & West... But please do come and see me, be great to see you again, after all it's only down the M1 road thingy... and the Mayor has already spent a huge amount of wonga on a new home for me... Yours Kingly Richard of Leicester! ;-) xx richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

9:09pm Fri 8 Feb 13

bob123456789 says...

Hate to say it, but I reckon the Minster are just trying to get out of the cost and hassle of bringing King Richard home. - just my personal opinion
Hate to say it, but I reckon the Minster are just trying to get out of the cost and hassle of bringing King Richard home. - just my personal opinion bob123456789
  • Score: 0

9:25pm Fri 8 Feb 13

ReginaldBiscuit says...

Omega Point wrote:
ReginaldBiscuit wrote:
Omega Point wrote: "Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. .
I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role. She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried.
If you have no issue with gender then why mention it?
Now her role as Dean of Leicester may have a part to play.
Where does creationist come in,it is nothing to do with the story here. There barking but no mention anywhere. Are you taking something?
If you have no issue with breathing then why breathe? The fact that I mentioned her gender is neither here nor there but at least it made you think.

Creationists - any reason for a pop at creationists I will and the Dean of York unless I'm very much mistaken is a representative of the non-visible, non-evidential 'God'. This the same God presumably who chooses not to intervene or warn or stop disasters such as 9/11, the Japanese 2011 & 2005 Tsunami and the Iranian earthquakes. The God who can part a sea so we are told but is unable to save millions of lives. The God who presides gloriously over his subjects yet does nothing to prevent their ghastly demise via cancer, famine or war. The God who sits by and does nothing to halt the environmental destruction of the planet or is willing to remove the nuclear destruction that could be wrought on its surface? Perhaps our friend the Dean should focus on the more pressing questions and issues of life rather than using her position and bias influence to revert the wishes of a Christian king with whom she shares the 'same' God?


"Am I taking something?" - Is that all you can come back with when presented with a half-cogent set of thoughts with rationalised and opinionated debate and questioning? Are you unable to respond with anything other than an insult?
[quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ReginaldBiscuit[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: "Anyway, the Dean of York is a woman - Vivienne Frances Faull - and where was she Provost and Dean of before York? Yes, you've guessed it. Leicester Cathedral. I am surprised the local and national press hasn't picked up on this. They need to, she's a planted stooge from Leicester, a Leicester supporter." Main question: what has her gender to do with anything? As to planted stooge - took post before Richard was found. .[/p][/quote]I didn't say it did. Until December last year, it was exclusively a male role. She spent over ten years working in Leicester and you say that it won't affect her thinking or the fact that she just happened to 'go public' with her views? Pull the other one. This isn't a a dig about gender, this is about someone manipulating their position to influence an outcome (much like the Church of England synod voting against the ordination of women Bishops). Creationists around the world cause chaos, division, death and hatred wherever they espouse their mantra. History is littered with many thousands of examples and this whole story about Richard has nothing to do with creationists, it's all about where a man wanted to be buried.[/p][/quote]If you have no issue with gender then why mention it? Now her role as Dean of Leicester may have a part to play. Where does creationist come in,it is nothing to do with the story here. There barking but no mention anywhere. Are you taking something?[/p][/quote]If you have no issue with breathing then why breathe? The fact that I mentioned her gender is neither here nor there but at least it made you think. Creationists - any reason for a pop at creationists I will and the Dean of York unless I'm very much mistaken is a representative of the non-visible, non-evidential 'God'. This the same God presumably who chooses not to intervene or warn or stop disasters such as 9/11, the Japanese 2011 & 2005 Tsunami and the Iranian earthquakes. The God who can part a sea so we are told but is unable to save millions of lives. The God who presides gloriously over his subjects yet does nothing to prevent their ghastly demise via cancer, famine or war. The God who sits by and does nothing to halt the environmental destruction of the planet or is willing to remove the nuclear destruction that could be wrought on its surface? Perhaps our friend the Dean should focus on the more pressing questions and issues of life rather than using her position and bias influence to revert the wishes of a Christian king with whom she shares the 'same' God? "Am I taking something?" - Is that all you can come back with when presented with a half-cogent set of thoughts with rationalised and opinionated debate and questioning? Are you unable to respond with anything other than an insult? ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

10:59pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

So pop at the creationists, they are idiots but not germain to this story, fact is this Dean is certainly not of that persuasion theologically. Does it not seem odd to you to include petty hobby-horses that are not relevant to the thread. The story is about York Dean et al not supporting Richards return.

And you still have not given a reason why mention but the you say it is for no reason.
You are not even half-cogent with these issues. I am all the way with you god-thing but go back to the main thread and you went way off it.

" Are you unable to respond with anything other than an insult" What an odd thing to ask given our exchanges here.
So pop at the creationists, they are idiots but not germain to this story, fact is this Dean is certainly not of that persuasion theologically. Does it not seem odd to you to include petty hobby-horses that are not relevant to the thread. The story is about York Dean et al not supporting Richards return. And you still have not given a reason why mention but the you say it is for no reason. You are not even half-cogent with these issues. I am all the way with you god-thing but go back to the main thread and you went way off it. " Are you unable to respond with anything other than an insult" What an odd thing to ask given our exchanges here. Omega Point
  • Score: 0

11:02pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

bob123456789 wrote:
Hate to say it, but I reckon the Minster are just trying to get out of the cost and hassle of bringing King Richard home. - just my personal opinion
A very tempting thought, but they would make up for it on the charge to see
[quote][p][bold]bob123456789[/bold] wrote: Hate to say it, but I reckon the Minster are just trying to get out of the cost and hassle of bringing King Richard home. - just my personal opinion[/p][/quote]A very tempting thought, but they would make up for it on the charge to see Omega Point
  • Score: 0

11:20pm Fri 8 Feb 13

NoMorePlease says...

Omega Point, you miss the point (!) about the Dean being previously at Leicester I think. No senior cathedral clergyperson is going to draw swords with another cathedral, even one as small as Leicester. I just wonder what her real thoughts are on this.

ReginalsBiscuit, to say she is a stooge is just daft.,
Omega Point, you miss the point (!) about the Dean being previously at Leicester I think. No senior cathedral clergyperson is going to draw swords with another cathedral, even one as small as Leicester. I just wonder what her real thoughts are on this. ReginalsBiscuit, to say she is a stooge is just daft., NoMorePlease
  • Score: 0

12:12am Sat 9 Feb 13

History buff says...

Legally it’s not necessarily a done deal that Richard will be buried at Leicester that’s just the spin put by Leicester city council. Their ‘solid’ claims rest entirely on the terms of the excavation licence but all bets are off if any of the next of kin petition a coroner’s court for the remains the be given into their care for burial at a place of their choosing. The probability is that a coroner will grant such an application because the rights of the next of kin take precedence over a pro forma excavation licence that presumes no traceable next of kin. Reading between the lines of the statement by a couple of his descendants I think this as already crossed their minds and they maybe be talking to their lawyers. If they want to hire a lawyer it’s their money to spend or if can find one who will work pro bono to raise their profile on a pretty straightforward case.

York Ministers refusal to accept the body is also less certain than they put across in their press statement. Presently they are showing solidarity as one part of the Anglican Church franchise to another that’s to be expected but if the reburial at Leicester was cancelled, due to for instance to successful litigation, they would change their minds very rapidly. Nor is the Minster entirely immune to public opinion because sufficient adverse opinion equals adverse publicity for the Minister that commercial/donation side of the Minister can do without. The Minister has dismissed a couple of thousands Ricardians as romantic cranks, but with 16,000+ having signed and Yorkshire politicians speaking out that’s becoming difficult to sustain and will be untenable if it comes near to the magic 100,000 mark. Then if not before there show of solidarity with Leicester will collapse.
Legally it’s not necessarily a done deal that Richard will be buried at Leicester that’s just the spin put by Leicester city council. Their ‘solid’ claims rest entirely on the terms of the excavation licence but all bets are off if any of the next of kin petition a coroner’s court for the remains the be given into their care for burial at a place of their choosing. The probability is that a coroner will grant such an application because the rights of the next of kin take precedence over a pro forma excavation licence that presumes no traceable next of kin. Reading between the lines of the statement by a couple of his descendants I think this as already crossed their minds and they maybe be talking to their lawyers. If they want to hire a lawyer it’s their money to spend or if can find one who will work pro bono to raise their profile on a pretty straightforward case. York Ministers refusal to accept the body is also less certain than they put across in their press statement. Presently they are showing solidarity as one part of the Anglican Church franchise to another that’s to be expected but if the reburial at Leicester was cancelled, due to for instance to successful litigation, they would change their minds very rapidly. Nor is the Minster entirely immune to public opinion because sufficient adverse opinion equals adverse publicity for the Minister that commercial/donation side of the Minister can do without. The Minister has dismissed a couple of thousands Ricardians as romantic cranks, but with 16,000+ having signed and Yorkshire politicians speaking out that’s becoming difficult to sustain and will be untenable if it comes near to the magic 100,000 mark. Then if not before there show of solidarity with Leicester will collapse. History buff
  • Score: 0

12:19am Sat 9 Feb 13

mgztv6 says...

I am leicester born and bred but this great king will have no respect from locals in this city we do not deserve him. the cathedral grounds are like a doss house please take him home to york where he belongs
I am leicester born and bred but this great king will have no respect from locals in this city we do not deserve him. the cathedral grounds are like a doss house please take him home to york where he belongs mgztv6
  • Score: 0

12:57am Sat 9 Feb 13

ismoqed says...

I should imagine that the Cof E stiched up which Cathedral was to have Richard long before the skeleton was confirmed to be Richard probably on the basis that Leicester needs the tourist income for its Cathedral more than York which despite its charges is a very popular venue.

However this is not about the Churches wishes if it can be demonstrated tha tRichard wanted to be buried here and the people wish him to buried in York then that should count. We should not forget that Richard had a strong northern affinity was highly regarded by the gentry and poor of the North for his relatively impartial Justice when Lord of the North and most importantly is virtually unique in British history for bringing Northerners down to replace southerners after Buckinghams rebellion. Can any one give me another example of a ruler who favoured the north over the south? Therefore if it does not cost too much and can be made to generate revenue bring him home.
Oh and by the way I am not a middle class anorak just a working class historian
I should imagine that the Cof E stiched up which Cathedral was to have Richard long before the skeleton was confirmed to be Richard probably on the basis that Leicester needs the tourist income for its Cathedral more than York which despite its charges is a very popular venue. However this is not about the Churches wishes if it can be demonstrated tha tRichard wanted to be buried here and the people wish him to buried in York then that should count. We should not forget that Richard had a strong northern affinity was highly regarded by the gentry and poor of the North for his relatively impartial Justice when Lord of the North and most importantly is virtually unique in British history for bringing Northerners down to replace southerners after Buckinghams rebellion. Can any one give me another example of a ruler who favoured the north over the south? Therefore if it does not cost too much and can be made to generate revenue bring him home. Oh and by the way I am not a middle class anorak just a working class historian ismoqed
  • Score: 0

5:48am Sat 9 Feb 13

Caliyorkia says...

Whistlejacket wrote:
Now is the winter of our discontent
made deeper by this motley crew
who scheme to have our bones removed
and to the bosom of York minster sent

Alexander, aye well we know his strutting ilk
A babb'ling brook would counsel truer
his glorious schemes will come to nought
he'd make a pig's ear from a purse of silk

Be we rude stamp'd, or of proportion fair
This rose of York must lay by where it fell
Ere England speaks, let England hear
I'll be the last white rose, or man, in Leicester's square.

(Apologies to you know who)
Nice one.
[quote][p][bold]Whistlejacket[/bold] wrote: Now is the winter of our discontent made deeper by this motley crew who scheme to have our bones removed and to the bosom of York minster sent Alexander, aye well we know his strutting ilk A babb'ling brook would counsel truer his glorious schemes will come to nought he'd make a pig's ear from a purse of silk Be we rude stamp'd, or of proportion fair This rose of York must lay by where it fell Ere England speaks, let England hear I'll be the last white rose, or man, in Leicester's square. (Apologies to you know who)[/p][/quote]Nice one. Caliyorkia
  • Score: 0

7:52am Sat 9 Feb 13

Whitest Rose says...

ismoqed wrote:
I should imagine that the Cof E stiched up which Cathedral was to have Richard long before the skeleton was confirmed to be Richard probably on the basis that Leicester needs the tourist income for its Cathedral more than York which despite its charges is a very popular venue.

However this is not about the Churches wishes if it can be demonstrated tha tRichard wanted to be buried here and the people wish him to buried in York then that should count. We should not forget that Richard had a strong northern affinity was highly regarded by the gentry and poor of the North for his relatively impartial Justice when Lord of the North and most importantly is virtually unique in British history for bringing Northerners down to replace southerners after Buckinghams rebellion. Can any one give me another example of a ruler who favoured the north over the south? Therefore if it does not cost too much and can be made to generate revenue bring him home.
Oh and by the way I am not a middle class anorak just a working class historian
Ripon Cathedral does not charge and Richard had connections with Ripon Cathedral.

Richard's remains are not treasure trove like the Staffordshire Hoard. They are the remains of a living breathing person that had connections with Yorkshire. Not just York itself but the Wensleydale area and South Yorkshire. Castles at Middleham and Pontefract.

It would be very fitting to bury him in Ripon which is a beautiful Cathedral.

If Leicester had dug up the battle armour of Richard 111, I would have no qualms about their right to display it in a museum but this is very different.
[quote][p][bold]ismoqed[/bold] wrote: I should imagine that the Cof E stiched up which Cathedral was to have Richard long before the skeleton was confirmed to be Richard probably on the basis that Leicester needs the tourist income for its Cathedral more than York which despite its charges is a very popular venue. However this is not about the Churches wishes if it can be demonstrated tha tRichard wanted to be buried here and the people wish him to buried in York then that should count. We should not forget that Richard had a strong northern affinity was highly regarded by the gentry and poor of the North for his relatively impartial Justice when Lord of the North and most importantly is virtually unique in British history for bringing Northerners down to replace southerners after Buckinghams rebellion. Can any one give me another example of a ruler who favoured the north over the south? Therefore if it does not cost too much and can be made to generate revenue bring him home. Oh and by the way I am not a middle class anorak just a working class historian[/p][/quote]Ripon Cathedral does not charge and Richard had connections with Ripon Cathedral. Richard's remains are not treasure trove like the Staffordshire Hoard. They are the remains of a living breathing person that had connections with Yorkshire. Not just York itself but the Wensleydale area and South Yorkshire. Castles at Middleham and Pontefract. It would be very fitting to bury him in Ripon which is a beautiful Cathedral. If Leicester had dug up the battle armour of Richard 111, I would have no qualms about their right to display it in a museum but this is very different. Whitest Rose
  • Score: 0

1:44pm Sat 9 Feb 13

ismoqed says...

Whitest Rose

I never suggested that human remains equated to treasure trove only that both Leicester and York were thinking about the benefits to the church and the city and had probably agreed what was to happen before hand.

The idea of churches and cities haggling over bones would probably have shocked Richard far less than yourself as a Late Medieval King he would have been aware of past dsiputes over the ownership of saints remains to enhance the pigrim "trade".

As I indicated I think as a King with a significant northern Affinity he should come back tothe north and if Prof Pollard is right York would have been his choice.
However you could argue that as an anointed King his place is in Westminster Abbey with his wife Anne Neville who is already buried there, perhaps the current Royal family who claim descent from his niece could fund a suitable re burial thus cuttung cost to us and solving the Leicester v York dispute.
Whitest Rose I never suggested that human remains equated to treasure trove only that both Leicester and York were thinking about the benefits to the church and the city and had probably agreed what was to happen before hand. The idea of churches and cities haggling over bones would probably have shocked Richard far less than yourself as a Late Medieval King he would have been aware of past dsiputes over the ownership of saints remains to enhance the pigrim "trade". As I indicated I think as a King with a significant northern Affinity he should come back tothe north and if Prof Pollard is right York would have been his choice. However you could argue that as an anointed King his place is in Westminster Abbey with his wife Anne Neville who is already buried there, perhaps the current Royal family who claim descent from his niece could fund a suitable re burial thus cuttung cost to us and solving the Leicester v York dispute. ismoqed
  • Score: 0

10:44pm Mon 11 Feb 13

TOSH99 says...

The Ministry of Justice have said the decision lays with the Leicester University over the remains. When applying for an archaeological exhumation licence, the applicant must state that any remains if discovered will be laid to rest at a suitable location, The licence that was issued states that the applicant (the University of Leicester) would, no later than August 31, 2014, deposit the remains at Jewry Wall Museum or have them interred at St Martin's Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place.
The Leicester Mayor Sir Peter Soulsby has said that a decision has been made.

So what now? If Leicester University want to bury Richard in Leciester they have the legal licence to do so. The only thing that can change this is a court order. Does any side really want to see our Money used for court proceedings when front line services are being cut. I read that Council Tax in York has gone up recently and that the roads are covered in more pot holls. I'm also expecting a Council Tax rise in Leicester this year and we also have our fair share of pot holls.
York has a Richard 3rd Musuem and was Richards home when he was alive, Leicester has a Richard 3rd statue, a Richard 3rd pub, The Leicester Council has recently bought a building that should house a possible museum and Richard has been buried in Leicester for 500+ years.
If this does go to court proceedings and York win, it will cost York in compensation as they may have pay all the costs and risks that Leicester have taken upto that point.

http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/39708
The Ministry of Justice have said the decision lays with the Leicester University over the remains. When applying for an archaeological exhumation licence, the applicant must state that any remains if discovered will be laid to rest at a suitable location, The licence that was issued states that the applicant (the University of Leicester) would, no later than August 31, 2014, deposit the remains at Jewry Wall Museum or have them interred at St Martin's Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place. The Leicester Mayor Sir Peter Soulsby has said that a decision has been made. So what now? If Leicester University want to bury Richard in Leciester they have the legal licence to do so. The only thing that can change this is a court order. Does any side really want to see our Money used for court proceedings when front line services are being cut. I read that Council Tax in York has gone up recently and that the roads are covered in more pot holls. I'm also expecting a Council Tax rise in Leicester this year and we also have our fair share of pot holls. York has a Richard 3rd Musuem and was Richards home when he was alive, Leicester has a Richard 3rd statue, a Richard 3rd pub, The Leicester Council has recently bought a building that should house a possible museum and Richard has been buried in Leicester for 500+ years. If this does go to court proceedings and York win, it will cost York in compensation as they may have pay all the costs and risks that Leicester have taken upto that point. http://epetitions.di rect.gov.uk/petition s/39708 TOSH99
  • Score: 0

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