York Minster does not want remains of King Richard III

King Richard III

King Richard III

First published in News
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York Press: Photograph of the Author by

THE campaign to inter the remains of the Yorkist King Richard III in the city looks to have been stopped in its tracks after the Minster said  they should remain in Leicester.

Following a long wait it was announced this week the remains of a man buried under a carpark in Leicester were those of the last Plantagenet king.

More than 10,000 people have signed a petition to bring his remains to York Minster from Leicester.

But a spokesman for the Minster said the cathedral believes his remains should stay in Leicester.

A spokesman for York Minster said: “The Chapter of York understands the strong feeling of some people in York and Yorkshire that Richard III is significant to the history of the county and that therefore his body ought to be returned.

“York Minster itself has a window in his memory and many reminders of Richard's place in our story.

“However, the recent verification of the identity of his remains follows a significant period in which Leicester and Leicestershire gained a sense of Richard belonging there, at least in death.

"It was Leicester Franciscans who gave him burial, and the cathedral has a major memorial to his memory at its heart. When the possibility of an excavation of the Greyfriars site began, it was agreed from the start that any remains found would be reinterred in Leicester.

"When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral. Since the news of the finding last year local people, like the people of York, have expressed a very strong wish that Richard, who has been with them since 1485, should stay in their keeping.

“The Chapter supports the terms of the Ministry of Justice licence and the wish of Chapter of Leicester that Richard should be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral. The Chapter of York commends Richard to Leicester's care and to the cathedral community's prayers.”

Comments (136)

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2:43pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster.

BRING HIM HOME!
I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME! Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 4

2:50pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Tug job says...

Woody G Mellor wrote:
I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME!
Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire?
[quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME![/p][/quote]Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire? Tug job
  • Score: 5

2:53pm Thu 7 Feb 13

MrChuckles says...

I was at first not overly fussed on the site of his re-burial.
However, having read a lot on Richard III and become quite fascinated by his story, it's hard to not come to the moral conclusion that he should be brought back to the House of York.
I was at first not overly fussed on the site of his re-burial. However, having read a lot on Richard III and become quite fascinated by his story, it's hard to not come to the moral conclusion that he should be brought back to the House of York. MrChuckles
  • Score: 4

2:55pm Thu 7 Feb 13

TheTruthHurts says...

Lol, Looks like James Alexander has just totally wasted a day or so on this.
'
Wouldnt it have been prudent to consult the Minster about this before starting some crazy campaign.
'
But its ok because we we will soon have a field for roadside tethered horses to be put in. :-)
Lol, Looks like James Alexander has just totally wasted a day or so on this. ' Wouldnt it have been prudent to consult the Minster about this before starting some crazy campaign. ' But its ok because we we will soon have a field for roadside tethered horses to be put in. :-) TheTruthHurts
  • Score: 3

2:58pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

Tug job wrote:
Woody G Mellor wrote:
I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME!
Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire?
You know what I mean.
[quote][p][bold]Tug job[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME![/p][/quote]Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire?[/p][/quote]You know what I mean. Woody G Mellor
  • Score: -2

3:00pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Terry3 says...

"It was Leicester Franciscans who gave him burial,"
From what I have seen of the photographs of the skeleton, he was not given a King's burial, but dumped in a hole and forgotten.. It is not for "The Minster" to make this decision, but the people. Bring him to York, override the idiot few at the Minster, and insist on a formal recognition of the last Plantagenet king by placing him in a crypt there, as is his right.
"It was Leicester Franciscans who gave him burial," From what I have seen of the photographs of the skeleton, he was not given a King's burial, but dumped in a hole and forgotten.. It is not for "The Minster" to make this decision, but the people. Bring him to York, override the idiot few at the Minster, and insist on a formal recognition of the last Plantagenet king by placing him in a crypt there, as is his right. Terry3
  • Score: 5

3:00pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

Tug job wrote:
Woody G Mellor wrote:
I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME!
Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire?
You should do some research into where he was 'brought up".

Here's a clue. Middleham castle.
[quote][p][bold]Tug job[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: I think the voice of thousands should override the opinions of a privileged few at the Minster. BRING HIM HOME![/p][/quote]Wasn't he born and brought up in Northamptonshire?[/p][/quote]You should do some research into where he was 'brought up". Here's a clue. Middleham castle. Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

The Minster should also remember that it is not just a bunch of bones. It's a persons last wishes we are talking about here. And a Royal one at that!
The Minster should also remember that it is not just a bunch of bones. It's a persons last wishes we are talking about here. And a Royal one at that! Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 1

3:10pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Marsh41 says...

Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral.

This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.
Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral. This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church. Marsh41
  • Score: -1

3:12pm Thu 7 Feb 13

AngryandFrustrated says...

amethystone wrote:
Well thanks a lot York Minster, how not to think about the people who live here and want him brought back to where he wanted to be buried. As for Leicester his being in buried there and should be left in their care, well they lost him and didn't know where he was. It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see. Very disappointed.
With the greatest of resepct, there are a whole host of problems, both legal and religious that make the reburial of Richard almost impossible.

Firstly, and as previous posters have pointed out on earlier stories, the licence to exhume the remains was granted on the basis (as is the norm) that the remains would be reburied in the nearest consecrated ground - ie in leicester. The only way this can be overturned is by way of a court order and I for one would not want to see monies being wasted on court proceedings over this issue when front line services are being cut.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church.

Whilst many posters reading this may not give a hoot about religion, it did mean a lot to Richard and therefore, what you are suggesting would be to re-bury Richard at the Minster in accordance with religious beliefs THAT WERE NOT HIS OWN!!

A King he may have been. However, I find it personally repugnant that anyone would seek to re-bury him, in accordance with the religious beliefs of a faith that was not his own, simply to satisfy some corporate bods and to make money, because that is the ONLY reason this band-wagon has got going.

"It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see".

It's Leicester ffs - 90minutes down the M1! It's not as if they are burying him on the moon! If it means that much to you, get in your car, on a bus or on the train!
[quote][p][bold]amethystone[/bold] wrote: Well thanks a lot York Minster, how not to think about the people who live here and want him brought back to where he wanted to be buried. As for Leicester his being in buried there and should be left in their care, well they lost him and didn't know where he was. It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see. Very disappointed.[/p][/quote]With the greatest of resepct, there are a whole host of problems, both legal and religious that make the reburial of Richard almost impossible. Firstly, and as previous posters have pointed out on earlier stories, the licence to exhume the remains was granted on the basis (as is the norm) that the remains would be reburied in the nearest consecrated ground - ie in leicester. The only way this can be overturned is by way of a court order and I for one would not want to see monies being wasted on court proceedings over this issue when front line services are being cut. Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church. Whilst many posters reading this may not give a hoot about religion, it did mean a lot to Richard and therefore, what you are suggesting would be to re-bury Richard at the Minster in accordance with religious beliefs THAT WERE NOT HIS OWN!! A King he may have been. However, I find it personally repugnant that anyone would seek to re-bury him, in accordance with the religious beliefs of a faith that was not his own, simply to satisfy some corporate bods and to make money, because that is the ONLY reason this band-wagon has got going. "It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see". It's Leicester ffs - 90minutes down the M1! It's not as if they are burying him on the moon! If it means that much to you, get in your car, on a bus or on the train! AngryandFrustrated
  • Score: 3

3:22pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Bandit11 says...

Bandit11.
So, York Minster believe Richard should be interred at Leicester, presumably because Richard was murdered at Bosworth which happens to be in Leicestershire?
So inspite of Richard`s express wish that he be buried at York, and Richard`s long association with the North he is to be kept in Leicestershire although this is the first opportunity anyone has had since his death to put that right?!Shame on York Minster, and shame on those who agree with this decision.
Bandit11. So, York Minster believe Richard should be interred at Leicester, presumably because Richard was murdered at Bosworth which happens to be in Leicestershire? So inspite of Richard`s express wish that he be buried at York, and Richard`s long association with the North he is to be kept in Leicestershire although this is the first opportunity anyone has had since his death to put that right?!Shame on York Minster, and shame on those who agree with this decision. Bandit11
  • Score: -2

3:27pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

TheTruthHurts says...
2:55pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Lol, Looks like James Alexander has just totally wasted a day or so on this.

And if he had not made this stand you would have complained about that no doubt.
TheTruthHurts says... 2:55pm Thu 7 Feb 13 Lol, Looks like James Alexander has just totally wasted a day or so on this. And if he had not made this stand you would have complained about that no doubt. Omega Point
  • Score: 0

3:28pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Marsh41 says...

"Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church".

... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
"Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E. Marsh41
  • Score: 3

3:32pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

Marsh41 wrote:
"Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church".

... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research!
[quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.[/p][/quote]The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research! Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 1

3:34pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Candy Cupcake says...

AngryandFrustrated wrote:
amethystone wrote:
Well thanks a lot York Minster, how not to think about the people who live here and want him brought back to where he wanted to be buried. As for Leicester his being in buried there and should be left in their care, well they lost him and didn't know where he was. It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see. Very disappointed.
With the greatest of resepct, there are a whole host of problems, both legal and religious that make the reburial of Richard almost impossible.

Firstly, and as previous posters have pointed out on earlier stories, the licence to exhume the remains was granted on the basis (as is the norm) that the remains would be reburied in the nearest consecrated ground - ie in leicester. The only way this can be overturned is by way of a court order and I for one would not want to see monies being wasted on court proceedings over this issue when front line services are being cut.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church.

Whilst many posters reading this may not give a hoot about religion, it did mean a lot to Richard and therefore, what you are suggesting would be to re-bury Richard at the Minster in accordance with religious beliefs THAT WERE NOT HIS OWN!!

A King he may have been. However, I find it personally repugnant that anyone would seek to re-bury him, in accordance with the religious beliefs of a faith that was not his own, simply to satisfy some corporate bods and to make money, because that is the ONLY reason this band-wagon has got going.

"It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see".

It's Leicester ffs - 90minutes down the M1! It's not as if they are burying him on the moon! If it means that much to you, get in your car, on a bus or on the train!
Wow somebody actually talking sense!
[quote][p][bold]AngryandFrustrated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]amethystone[/bold] wrote: Well thanks a lot York Minster, how not to think about the people who live here and want him brought back to where he wanted to be buried. As for Leicester his being in buried there and should be left in their care, well they lost him and didn't know where he was. It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see. Very disappointed.[/p][/quote]With the greatest of resepct, there are a whole host of problems, both legal and religious that make the reburial of Richard almost impossible. Firstly, and as previous posters have pointed out on earlier stories, the licence to exhume the remains was granted on the basis (as is the norm) that the remains would be reburied in the nearest consecrated ground - ie in leicester. The only way this can be overturned is by way of a court order and I for one would not want to see monies being wasted on court proceedings over this issue when front line services are being cut. Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church. Whilst many posters reading this may not give a hoot about religion, it did mean a lot to Richard and therefore, what you are suggesting would be to re-bury Richard at the Minster in accordance with religious beliefs THAT WERE NOT HIS OWN!! A King he may have been. However, I find it personally repugnant that anyone would seek to re-bury him, in accordance with the religious beliefs of a faith that was not his own, simply to satisfy some corporate bods and to make money, because that is the ONLY reason this band-wagon has got going. "It will just be a big money making scheme for Leicester and somewhere most of us will never get to see". It's Leicester ffs - 90minutes down the M1! It's not as if they are burying him on the moon! If it means that much to you, get in your car, on a bus or on the train![/p][/quote]Wow somebody actually talking sense! Candy Cupcake
  • Score: 2

3:50pm Thu 7 Feb 13

RingoStarr says...

Notice that the 'spokesman' wasn't keen to identify himself.
Notice that the 'spokesman' wasn't keen to identify himself. RingoStarr
  • Score: 1

3:52pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bolero says...

Oh! For goodness sake. R I P.
Oh! For goodness sake. R I P. bolero
  • Score: -1

3:53pm Thu 7 Feb 13

RingoStarr says...

“The Chapter supports the terms of the Ministry of Justice licence and the wish of Chapter of Leicester that Richard should be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral. The Chapter of York commends Richard to Leicester's care and to the cathedral community's prayers.”

Anagram: OLOBCSLK
“The Chapter supports the terms of the Ministry of Justice licence and the wish of Chapter of Leicester that Richard should be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral. The Chapter of York commends Richard to Leicester's care and to the cathedral community's prayers.” Anagram: OLOBCSLK RingoStarr
  • Score: 0

3:54pm Thu 7 Feb 13

JHardacre says...

"When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral."

What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of.

BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain?
"When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral." What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of. BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain? JHardacre
  • Score: 1

3:57pm Thu 7 Feb 13

History buff says...

It should come as no surprise that neither the Government nor York Minister want to get involved in where Richard III should be reinterred. Nor is it about whether Richard III was a good or an evil King or Yorkshire versus Leicestershire it’s about the letter of the law and the refusal of officialdom to support a campaign where the law is almost not on the campaigners’ side.

The legal consent to excavate the cemetery in Leicester was conditional on reburial on consecrated ground in Leicester, thats pro forma stuff when it comes to excavating in any disused Christian cemetery anyway in the UK. These stipulations' applied not specifically just to Richard III but to any remains found in the cemetery that again is the normal procedure for consents in these circumstances.

The law is quite clear on these points and to overturn this would require a hearing before a coroner and assume that arguments about ‘Good King Richard’ won’t cut it in court. However there is one legal challenge with a remote possibility of success. The person from whom the DNA sample was taken is the legal next of kin and is he was to petition the coroner for the custody the remains his petition just might trump a pro forma archaeological excavation certificate. But it’s entirely up to him to make this move and that it certainly wouldn't lead to re internment at York Minster.

I would like to see Richard III buried in Yorkshire but to do this is a serious proposition that needs kot less woolly sentiment behind and much more serious consideration of the legal process.
It should come as no surprise that neither the Government nor York Minister want to get involved in where Richard III should be reinterred. Nor is it about whether Richard III was a good or an evil King or Yorkshire versus Leicestershire it’s about the letter of the law and the refusal of officialdom to support a campaign where the law is almost not on the campaigners’ side. The legal consent to excavate the cemetery in Leicester was conditional on reburial on consecrated ground in Leicester, thats pro forma stuff when it comes to excavating in any disused Christian cemetery anyway in the UK. These stipulations' applied not specifically just to Richard III but to any remains found in the cemetery that again is the normal procedure for consents in these circumstances. The law is quite clear on these points and to overturn this would require a hearing before a coroner and assume that arguments about ‘Good King Richard’ won’t cut it in court. However there is one legal challenge with a remote possibility of success. The person from whom the DNA sample was taken is the legal next of kin and is he was to petition the coroner for the custody the remains his petition just might trump a pro forma archaeological excavation certificate. But it’s entirely up to him to make this move and that it certainly wouldn't lead to re internment at York Minster. I would like to see Richard III buried in Yorkshire but to do this is a serious proposition that needs kot less woolly sentiment behind and much more serious consideration of the legal process. History buff
  • Score: 2

3:58pm Thu 7 Feb 13

AngryandFrustrated says...

Woody G Mellor wrote:
Marsh41 wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research!
The Minster may be open to all religions and people that wish to worship there, but the services held there are CofE and I think you will find that under canon law, there cannot be a Catholic ceremony held there. As a result, I don't need to do any research!

And to Marsh41 - I was aware that Leicester Cathedral was Anglican as is Westminster Cathedral, hence why I said there would be difficulties in reburying him. Generally, remains that are reburied are not subject to a church service - a short service is held at the graveside during the reburial, and as far as I was aware, this was going to be the case with Richard until this unseemly scrap started over where he should be laid to rest.

He was the King Of England and I repeat, a devout Catholic. It may not mean a lot to a lot of people reading this but when he was alive it meant everything. If there is to be a service in his honour for the reburial, it should be held in a Catholic church, in honour to respect his religious beliefs. Unfortunately, for the money grabbing, tourist touting corporate bods, this means that most Minsters and Cathedrals are off limits. It is also the reason why people who are calling for a state funeral are p***ing in the wind. He should be afforded the dignity that a fallen King can expect and not turned into some freak show to see what area can make the most money out of him.
[quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.[/p][/quote]The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research![/p][/quote]The Minster may be open to all religions and people that wish to worship there, but the services held there are CofE and I think you will find that under canon law, there cannot be a Catholic ceremony held there. As a result, I don't need to do any research! And to Marsh41 - I was aware that Leicester Cathedral was Anglican as is Westminster Cathedral, hence why I said there would be difficulties in reburying him. Generally, remains that are reburied are not subject to a church service - a short service is held at the graveside during the reburial, and as far as I was aware, this was going to be the case with Richard until this unseemly scrap started over where he should be laid to rest. He was the King Of England and I repeat, a devout Catholic. It may not mean a lot to a lot of people reading this but when he was alive it meant everything. If there is to be a service in his honour for the reburial, it should be held in a Catholic church, in honour to respect his religious beliefs. Unfortunately, for the money grabbing, tourist touting corporate bods, this means that most Minsters and Cathedrals are off limits. It is also the reason why people who are calling for a state funeral are p***ing in the wind. He should be afforded the dignity that a fallen King can expect and not turned into some freak show to see what area can make the most money out of him. AngryandFrustrated
  • Score: 2

3:59pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Put'KettleOn says...

Do people actually care this much? Jeeeez.
Do people actually care this much? Jeeeez. Put'KettleOn
  • Score: -2

4:01pm Thu 7 Feb 13

RingoStarr says...

History buff wrote:
It should come as no surprise that neither the Government nor York Minister want to get involved in where Richard III should be reinterred. Nor is it about whether Richard III was a good or an evil King or Yorkshire versus Leicestershire it’s about the letter of the law and the refusal of officialdom to support a campaign where the law is almost not on the campaigners’ side.

The legal consent to excavate the cemetery in Leicester was conditional on reburial on consecrated ground in Leicester, thats pro forma stuff when it comes to excavating in any disused Christian cemetery anyway in the UK. These stipulations' applied not specifically just to Richard III but to any remains found in the cemetery that again is the normal procedure for consents in these circumstances.

The law is quite clear on these points and to overturn this would require a hearing before a coroner and assume that arguments about ‘Good King Richard’ won’t cut it in court. However there is one legal challenge with a remote possibility of success. The person from whom the DNA sample was taken is the legal next of kin and is he was to petition the coroner for the custody the remains his petition just might trump a pro forma archaeological excavation certificate. But it’s entirely up to him to make this move and that it certainly wouldn't lead to re internment at York Minster.

I would like to see Richard III buried in Yorkshire but to do this is a serious proposition that needs kot less woolly sentiment behind and much more serious consideration of the legal process.
"woolly sentiment behind"

Ah, is this an essential part of a 'gay marriage'?
[quote][p][bold]History buff[/bold] wrote: It should come as no surprise that neither the Government nor York Minister want to get involved in where Richard III should be reinterred. Nor is it about whether Richard III was a good or an evil King or Yorkshire versus Leicestershire it’s about the letter of the law and the refusal of officialdom to support a campaign where the law is almost not on the campaigners’ side. The legal consent to excavate the cemetery in Leicester was conditional on reburial on consecrated ground in Leicester, thats pro forma stuff when it comes to excavating in any disused Christian cemetery anyway in the UK. These stipulations' applied not specifically just to Richard III but to any remains found in the cemetery that again is the normal procedure for consents in these circumstances. The law is quite clear on these points and to overturn this would require a hearing before a coroner and assume that arguments about ‘Good King Richard’ won’t cut it in court. However there is one legal challenge with a remote possibility of success. The person from whom the DNA sample was taken is the legal next of kin and is he was to petition the coroner for the custody the remains his petition just might trump a pro forma archaeological excavation certificate. But it’s entirely up to him to make this move and that it certainly wouldn't lead to re internment at York Minster. I would like to see Richard III buried in Yorkshire but to do this is a serious proposition that needs kot less woolly sentiment behind and much more serious consideration of the legal process.[/p][/quote]"woolly sentiment behind" Ah, is this an essential part of a 'gay marriage'? RingoStarr
  • Score: 0

4:01pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

I don't give a hoot what's been written on scraps of paper! I, like thousands of others say he belongs in York and the powers that be should listen to the poeple. End of.
I don't give a hoot what's been written on scraps of paper! I, like thousands of others say he belongs in York and the powers that be should listen to the poeple. End of. Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 2

4:02pm Thu 7 Feb 13

R'Marcus says...

Marsh41 wrote:
"Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church".

... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
I totally agree with Marsh41.
Richard was born a Catholic and died a Catholic as Henry VIII, who iinstignate the break in England with the Catholic Church, by his selfish marrital behaviour, was not born when Richard III lived.
[quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.[/p][/quote]I totally agree with Marsh41. Richard was born a Catholic and died a Catholic as Henry VIII, who iinstignate the break in England with the Catholic Church, by his selfish marrital behaviour, was not born when Richard III lived. R'Marcus
  • Score: 1

4:02pm Thu 7 Feb 13

colette says...

To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home
To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home colette
  • Score: -1

4:06pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Gyspsy Power says...

Why does anyone care anyway? Its not worth getting emotional about.

The only king that should be buried in York is Elvis Impersonator Eddie Vee. Preferably whilst still breathing.
Why does anyone care anyway? Its not worth getting emotional about. The only king that should be buried in York is Elvis Impersonator Eddie Vee. Preferably whilst still breathing. Gyspsy Power
  • Score: -2

4:09pm Thu 7 Feb 13

R'Marcus says...

Richard was a Yorkist and died as a Yorkist. His remains must be buried in York, and the Minster is the perfect place.
He died in battle, and his remains should be buried in the Minster with military pomp. He was a truly brave and honourable leader of the House of York.
Richard was a Yorkist and died as a Yorkist. His remains must be buried in York, and the Minster is the perfect place. He died in battle, and his remains should be buried in the Minster with military pomp. He was a truly brave and honourable leader of the House of York. R'Marcus
  • Score: 1

4:17pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Firedrake says...

AngryandFrustrated raises some valid and interesting points, but the religious issue seems to be causing some confusion here. As Marsh41 points out, Leicester Cathedral is also CofE.

However, the Minster (and I imagine Leicester Cathedral too) can and does host Roman Catholic services from time to time - along with Eastern Orthodox and other denominational rites - as part of the ecumenical mission which the Church of England signed up to decades ago. RC services in an Anglican Church are simply not a problem.

In any case, the Church of England has always defined itself as "catholic" - even in post Reformation times (though most Roman Catholics might not agree!) and Henry VIII had people executed for daring to suggest he was anything other than catholic - even AFTER his Act of Supremacy in 1534!

So a "high-church"/"Anglo
-Catholic" requiem would be appropriate.

The issues here, as Angryand Frustrated makes clear, hinge on the terms of the exhumation license.

I suppose these could be overturned, but if that doesn't happen, why not make a pilgrimage to Leicester?

I intend to!
AngryandFrustrated raises some valid and interesting points, but the religious issue seems to be causing some confusion here. As Marsh41 points out, Leicester Cathedral is also CofE. However, the Minster (and I imagine Leicester Cathedral too) can and does host Roman Catholic services from time to time - along with Eastern Orthodox and other denominational rites - as part of the ecumenical mission which the Church of England signed up to decades ago. RC services in an Anglican Church are simply not a problem. In any case, the Church of England has always defined itself as "catholic" - even in post Reformation times (though most Roman Catholics might not agree!) and Henry VIII had people executed for daring to suggest he was anything other than catholic - even AFTER his Act of Supremacy in 1534! So a "high-church"/"Anglo -Catholic" requiem would be appropriate. The issues here, as Angryand Frustrated makes clear, hinge on the terms of the exhumation license. I suppose these could be overturned, but if that doesn't happen, why not make a pilgrimage to Leicester? I intend to! Firedrake
  • Score: 0

4:20pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bloodaxe says...

AngryandFrustrated wrote:
Woody G Mellor wrote:
Marsh41 wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research!
The Minster may be open to all religions and people that wish to worship there, but the services held there are CofE and I think you will find that under canon law, there cannot be a Catholic ceremony held there. As a result, I don't need to do any research!

And to Marsh41 - I was aware that Leicester Cathedral was Anglican as is Westminster Cathedral, hence why I said there would be difficulties in reburying him. Generally, remains that are reburied are not subject to a church service - a short service is held at the graveside during the reburial, and as far as I was aware, this was going to be the case with Richard until this unseemly scrap started over where he should be laid to rest.

He was the King Of England and I repeat, a devout Catholic. It may not mean a lot to a lot of people reading this but when he was alive it meant everything. If there is to be a service in his honour for the reburial, it should be held in a Catholic church, in honour to respect his religious beliefs. Unfortunately, for the money grabbing, tourist touting corporate bods, this means that most Minsters and Cathedrals are off limits. It is also the reason why people who are calling for a state funeral are p***ing in the wind. He should be afforded the dignity that a fallen King can expect and not turned into some freak show to see what area can make the most money out of him.
Crikey ! You really are pushing the boat out. Westminster Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of Westminster (RC). Westminster Abbey, a Royal Peculiar, is the big church at the bottom end of Victoria Street and is Anglican, having been made a cathedral, very briefly, during the reformation.
[quote][p][bold]AngryandFrustrated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.[/p][/quote]The Minster is open to any and all religions should they wish to worship there. Do your research![/p][/quote]The Minster may be open to all religions and people that wish to worship there, but the services held there are CofE and I think you will find that under canon law, there cannot be a Catholic ceremony held there. As a result, I don't need to do any research! And to Marsh41 - I was aware that Leicester Cathedral was Anglican as is Westminster Cathedral, hence why I said there would be difficulties in reburying him. Generally, remains that are reburied are not subject to a church service - a short service is held at the graveside during the reburial, and as far as I was aware, this was going to be the case with Richard until this unseemly scrap started over where he should be laid to rest. He was the King Of England and I repeat, a devout Catholic. It may not mean a lot to a lot of people reading this but when he was alive it meant everything. If there is to be a service in his honour for the reburial, it should be held in a Catholic church, in honour to respect his religious beliefs. Unfortunately, for the money grabbing, tourist touting corporate bods, this means that most Minsters and Cathedrals are off limits. It is also the reason why people who are calling for a state funeral are p***ing in the wind. He should be afforded the dignity that a fallen King can expect and not turned into some freak show to see what area can make the most money out of him.[/p][/quote]Crikey ! You really are pushing the boat out. Westminster Cathedral is the seat of the Archbishop of Westminster (RC). Westminster Abbey, a Royal Peculiar, is the big church at the bottom end of Victoria Street and is Anglican, having been made a cathedral, very briefly, during the reformation. bloodaxe
  • Score: 1

4:23pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bloodaxe says...

R'Marcus wrote:
Marsh41 wrote:
"Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church".

... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.
I totally agree with Marsh41.
Richard was born a Catholic and died a Catholic as Henry VIII, who iinstignate the break in England with the Catholic Church, by his selfish marrital behaviour, was not born when Richard III lived.
Henry VIII died a catholic. He broke with the Pope as head of the church and denied the suzerainty of Rome but had little if any time for reformers like Martin Luther.
[quote][p][bold]R'Marcus[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: "Secondly, and probably more importantly, Richard was a devout Catholic. The Minster belongs to the Church of England and therefore, cannot hold (as far as I'm aware) Catholic ceremonies. At the time Richard died, the CofE didn't exist and the Minster was part of the Catholic Church". ... and exactly the same applies to Leicester Cathedral which is also C of E.[/p][/quote]I totally agree with Marsh41. Richard was born a Catholic and died a Catholic as Henry VIII, who iinstignate the break in England with the Catholic Church, by his selfish marrital behaviour, was not born when Richard III lived.[/p][/quote]Henry VIII died a catholic. He broke with the Pope as head of the church and denied the suzerainty of Rome but had little if any time for reformers like Martin Luther. bloodaxe
  • Score: 0

4:24pm Thu 7 Feb 13

brummiebob says...

Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!!
Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!! brummiebob
  • Score: -1

4:25pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bloodaxe says...

colette wrote:
To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home
If you're a citizen of York you don't need to pay.
[quote][p][bold]colette[/bold] wrote: To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home[/p][/quote]If you're a citizen of York you don't need to pay. bloodaxe
  • Score: 1

4:25pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V.

The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug.

After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion.

The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645.

Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments.

It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible.

Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester".

It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days.

But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens.

Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era.

The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture.

The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well.

York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts.

It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York.
Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V. The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug. After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion. The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645. Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments. It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible. Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester". It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days. But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens. Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era. The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture. The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well. York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts. It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York. Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 2

4:27pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bloodaxe says...

brummiebob wrote:
Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!!
No, he gave it.
[quote][p][bold]brummiebob[/bold] wrote: Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!![/p][/quote]No, he gave it. bloodaxe
  • Score: 1

4:29pm Thu 7 Feb 13

jimmy120883 says...

Well i think he should be intered at middleham where he grew up. Or like religious relics split up parts of his body and send them to York,Westminster,Mid
dleham and Leicester so eveyone can have a piece,.
Well i think he should be intered at middleham where he grew up. Or like religious relics split up parts of his body and send them to York,Westminster,Mid dleham and Leicester so eveyone can have a piece,. jimmy120883
  • Score: 0

4:29pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Pedro says...

He was an ex King of England whose word was law. He said he wanted to be buried here and his wish should have been obeyed at the time. Nobody has the right to tell anybody where they should be buried. Be that you, me or the King of England.
He was an ex King of England whose word was law. He said he wanted to be buried here and his wish should have been obeyed at the time. Nobody has the right to tell anybody where they should be buried. Be that you, me or the King of England. Pedro
  • Score: 0

4:30pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Split his body up. Yuk !!!
Split his body up. Yuk !!! Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: -1

4:32pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Richard did NOT write down any desire to be buried anywhere. He was the King of England, not the King of York. Any argument that he wished to be buried in York is pure speculation, yet it has been repeated over and over again the last few days...
Richard did NOT write down any desire to be buried anywhere. He was the King of England, not the King of York. Any argument that he wished to be buried in York is pure speculation, yet it has been repeated over and over again the last few days... Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

4:36pm Thu 7 Feb 13

History buff says...

There is a modern precedent for holding a Catholic burial service in the graveyard of an Anglican church. This was the re-internment in the 1990’s I believe of remains of the crew of the Mary Rose at the nearest parish to the wreck site as per the consent to excavate agreement with the navy. So it not a theological show stopper but has I said what will prevent the return of the remains to Yorkshire is the law and lack of will be anyone to spend serious money on litigation. Incidentally there are now just two English monarchs who are still AWOL, Harold and Alfred the Great the hunt for his body starts this year it and that same stipulations that made prior to the hunt for Richard III will apply to the Alfred the Great excavations.
There is a modern precedent for holding a Catholic burial service in the graveyard of an Anglican church. This was the re-internment in the 1990’s I believe of remains of the crew of the Mary Rose at the nearest parish to the wreck site as per the consent to excavate agreement with the navy. So it not a theological show stopper but has I said what will prevent the return of the remains to Yorkshire is the law and lack of will be anyone to spend serious money on litigation. Incidentally there are now just two English monarchs who are still AWOL, Harold and Alfred the Great the hunt for his body starts this year it and that same stipulations that made prior to the hunt for Richard III will apply to the Alfred the Great excavations. History buff
  • Score: 0

4:37pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Son of Amigo says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V.

The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug.

After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion.

The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645.

Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments.

It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible.

Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester".

It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days.

But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens.

Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era.

The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture.

The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well.

York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts.

It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York.
I could`n`t have put it better, I live in York(a fine historic city), my mother came from Leicester(renowned for its fabric weaving skills), I was born in Chester (again a fine roman city). I think Old_Town_Leicester has stated the case most eloquently. Well done sir!
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V. The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug. After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion. The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645. Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments. It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible. Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester". It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days. But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens. Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era. The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture. The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well. York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts. It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York.[/p][/quote]I could`n`t have put it better, I live in York(a fine historic city), my mother came from Leicester(renowned for its fabric weaving skills), I was born in Chester (again a fine roman city). I think Old_Town_Leicester has stated the case most eloquently. Well done sir! Son of Amigo
  • Score: 0

4:42pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Daley Mayall says...

Has the Asian populus of Leicester been canvassed by BBC news yet for their views?

Only a matter of time...
Has the Asian populus of Leicester been canvassed by BBC news yet for their views? Only a matter of time... Daley Mayall
  • Score: -3

4:42pm Thu 7 Feb 13

dodgydavereturns says...

Things like this start civil wars you know!
Things like this start civil wars you know! dodgydavereturns
  • Score: 1

4:46pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

I don't quite understand that comment about the Asian population of Leicester? What has that got to do with anything?
I don't quite understand that comment about the Asian population of Leicester? What has that got to do with anything? Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 0

4:47pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

Woody G Mellor wrote:
I don't give a hoot what's been written on scraps of paper! I, like thousands of others say he belongs in York and the powers that be should listen to the poeple. End of.
Scraps of paper - it is a legal document, doh

End of - the closing words of ... who have nothing better to say
[quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: I don't give a hoot what's been written on scraps of paper! I, like thousands of others say he belongs in York and the powers that be should listen to the poeple. End of.[/p][/quote]Scraps of paper - it is a legal document, doh End of - the closing words of ... who have nothing better to say Omega Point
  • Score: -1

5:10pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

Daley Mayall wrote:
Has the Asian populus of Leicester been canvassed by BBC news yet for their views? Only a matter of time...
On the BBC East Midlands today, a reporter did ask people in town around the clock tower their opinions. People of all ethnic backgrounds were asked reflecting the multi-cultural city that Leicester is.

But as has been asked, what of it?
[quote][p][bold]Daley Mayall[/bold] wrote: Has the Asian populus of Leicester been canvassed by BBC news yet for their views? Only a matter of time...[/p][/quote]On the BBC East Midlands today, a reporter did ask people in town around the clock tower their opinions. People of all ethnic backgrounds were asked reflecting the multi-cultural city that Leicester is. But as has been asked, what of it? Omega Point
  • Score: 0

5:20pm Thu 7 Feb 13

again says...

colette wrote:
To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home
Exactly. And to the commenter who referred to the 'town of York', York happens to be a city of ancient lineage. If you don't know that then what is your opinion worth?
[quote][p][bold]colette[/bold] wrote: To be honest, to see his burial place is the only reason I would pay to go into th Minster. It's Yorkshire which has stayed loyal to Richard, surely, and he should come home[/p][/quote]Exactly. And to the commenter who referred to the 'town of York', York happens to be a city of ancient lineage. If you don't know that then what is your opinion worth? again
  • Score: 0

5:24pm Thu 7 Feb 13

MarkyMarkMark says...

Surely, as a King of England, if he were to be re-buried anywhere other than Leicester then its should be in Westminster Abbey?

York haven't been desperately seeking Richard for the last 500-odd years.

And given that he was a defeated King of England, perhaps he should just be put back in the looser's grave where he was buried originally. In the interests of historical continuity, and all that.
Surely, as a King of England, if he were to be re-buried anywhere other than Leicester then its should be in Westminster Abbey? York haven't been desperately seeking Richard for the last 500-odd years. And given that he was a defeated King of England, perhaps he should just be put back in the looser's grave where he was buried originally. In the interests of historical continuity, and all that. MarkyMarkMark
  • Score: 0

5:29pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Garrowby Turnoff says...

Are we all agreed that the murder of the two princes and other nasty associations with Richard III is pretty much debunked? If not, then why are we scrapping with Leicester and London over the bones of a tyrant.
Are we all agreed that the murder of the two princes and other nasty associations with Richard III is pretty much debunked? If not, then why are we scrapping with Leicester and London over the bones of a tyrant. Garrowby Turnoff
  • Score: -1

5:36pm Thu 7 Feb 13

steve.mears says...

Perhaps the goal posts have changed slightly. WE ARE talking about the mortal remains of a former King of England and not the skeletal remains of just some Yorkshire noteworthy. If he is not to be buried as the last House of York Plantagenant,then should it not be Westminster Abbey perhaps or Canterbury ,If Leicester then make an event of it,a State funeral befitting his status,not some quiet service with a plain stone tucked away somewhere in the Cathedral. then that suffices.As to arguments as to his Roman Catholic or Cof E status this is irrelevant,there was only one established Church at the time and many of our Cathedrals were Catholic buildings,a quick check at most portals will show the niche bowls for the Holy Water. The good faith shown by the Franciscan monks in taking his body and giving safe burial within it's walls is to be lauded. It would appear from autopsy evidence that the body suffered post mortem violence and it was not uncommon still in those days for the body to be left on a city's wall in a cage to rot away.
Perhaps the goal posts have changed slightly. WE ARE talking about the mortal remains of a former King of England[if much maligned] and not the skeletal remains of just some Yorkshire noteworthy. If he is not to be buried as the last House of York Plantagenant,then should it not be Westminster Abbey perhaps or Canterbury ,If Leicester then make an event of it,a State funeral befitting his status,not some quiet service with a plain stone tucked away somewhere in the Cathedral. then that suffices.As to arguments as to his Roman Catholic or Cof E status this is irrelevant,there was only one established Church[RC] at the time and many of our Cathedrals were Catholic buildings,a quick check at most portals will show the niche bowls for the Holy Water. The good faith shown by the Franciscan monks in taking his body and giving safe burial within it's walls is to be lauded. It would appear from autopsy evidence that the body suffered post mortem violence and it was not uncommon still in those days for the body to be left on a city's wall in a cage to rot away. steve.mears
  • Score: 1

5:41pm Thu 7 Feb 13

smiler45 says...

Here's an idea why not split the remains up and bury in both York and Leicester that way everyone is happy. I'm sure Richard III is not going to complain where his bones are buried. He died in Leicester and has been buried there all this time and no one was interested then now his remains have been unearthed everyones on the band wagon and wants a piece of him.
Here's an idea why not split the remains up and bury in both York and Leicester that way everyone is happy. I'm sure Richard III is not going to complain where his bones are buried. He died in Leicester and has been buried there all this time and no one was interested then now his remains have been unearthed everyones on the band wagon and wants a piece of him. smiler45
  • Score: 0

5:52pm Thu 7 Feb 13

M.Blanc says...

At long last, a voice of common sense and wisdom! This is not his home and the 'voice of thousands' should go and shout elsewere! Who on earth do the people who signed a 'petition' think they are?! Go and find a worthy cause to spend your time on for goodness sake!!
At long last, a voice of common sense and wisdom! This is not his home and the 'voice of thousands' should go and shout elsewere! Who on earth do the people who signed a 'petition' think they are?! Go and find a worthy cause to spend your time on for goodness sake!! M.Blanc
  • Score: 1

5:54pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Jaytea says...

The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned.
The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned. Jaytea
  • Score: -1

5:56pm Thu 7 Feb 13

whitehorse says...

Having signed the petition, this is obviously a bit of a dampner, but then it made me think. 'Of York' is a designation held by the xth son in line to the throne. We've had loads of Dukes of our city. Doesn't mean they have any huge connection. At the end of the day, we've had Dukes of York from France, Across the Pennines, Hanover and Saxe-Coburg.

It is a shame that we wont benefit from the publicity or tourism that a reinterment would bring but it seems like a bit of a pointless fight given the Minster's withdrawal.

Anyway- there seem to be a lot of assertions about Richards love for the region and his desire to be buried in York Minster. The council even quoted it in their letter. Where is the actual, contemporary and documentary evidence that confirms this?
Having signed the petition, this is obviously a bit of a dampner, but then it made me think. 'Of York' is a designation held by the xth son in line to the throne. We've had loads of Dukes of our city. Doesn't mean they have any huge connection. At the end of the day, we've had Dukes of York from France, Across the Pennines, Hanover and Saxe-Coburg. It is a shame that we wont benefit from the publicity or tourism that a reinterment would bring but it seems like a bit of a pointless fight given the Minster's withdrawal. Anyway- there seem to be a lot of assertions about Richards love for the region and his desire to be buried in York Minster. The council even quoted it in their letter. Where is the actual, contemporary and documentary evidence that confirms this? whitehorse
  • Score: 1

6:00pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Seadog says...

History buff is almost correct: the skeleton of ONE crewman of the Mary Rose (symbolically representative of them all) was buried in Portsmouth's Anglican cathedral. However, the Mary Rose sank in 1545, eleven years after Henry's "break with Rome".

If I remember correctly, the rite used was the Latin Office of the Dead (Sarum Usage) with all references to the Pope removed. This was the standard usage in England between the Act of Supremacy and the "First (English) Prayer Book of Edward VI" in 1549. So: "Catholic" but not "Roman Catholic".
History buff is almost correct: the skeleton of ONE crewman of the Mary Rose (symbolically representative of them all) was buried in Portsmouth's Anglican cathedral. However, the Mary Rose sank in 1545, eleven years after Henry's "break with Rome". If I remember correctly, the rite used was the Latin Office of the Dead (Sarum Usage) with all references to the Pope removed. This was the standard usage in England between the Act of Supremacy and the "First (English) Prayer Book of Edward VI" in 1549. So: "Catholic" but not "Roman Catholic". Seadog
  • Score: 0

6:30pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Pollyconn says...

I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York.

I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made.

Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him.

At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now?

As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?
I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York. I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made. Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him. At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now? As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch? Pollyconn
  • Score: 1

6:35pm Thu 7 Feb 13

whitehorse says...

Another small thought, which adds to the debate- and i'm not sure on which side- how many white crosses are there across France, Germany, Italy, North Africa and the far-east, belonging to men who would surely have preferred their final rest to be elsewhere...
Another small thought, which adds to the debate- and i'm not sure on which side- how many white crosses are there across France, Germany, Italy, North Africa and the far-east, belonging to men who would surely have preferred their final rest to be elsewhere... whitehorse
  • Score: 1

6:46pm Thu 7 Feb 13

ange11 says...

Cannot believe this - have they read any of the history?
Shouldn't the church consider his historical links and what would surely have been his preferred choice.
The "this is current practice" arguement is just the easy option.
come on York Minster, you have a chance to finally give him a bit of respect after 500 years of villification and the ignomy of having his bones poked and prodded.
Cannot believe this - have they read any of the history? Shouldn't the church consider his historical links and what would surely have been his preferred choice. The "this is current practice" arguement is just the easy option. come on York Minster, you have a chance to finally give him a bit of respect after 500 years of villification and the ignomy of having his bones poked and prodded. ange11
  • Score: -1

6:49pm Thu 7 Feb 13

millmountgirl says...

It seems Richard is being betrayed yet again - this time by the Dean and Chapter of York:

http://www.historyof
york.org.uk/themes/m
edieval/king-richard
-iii-and-york

Meanwhile Leicester are continuing with their finders keepers rhetoric with unseemly haste apparently without any discussion or recognition of other viewpoints. Maybe they know York has the moral high ground. And this is nothing to do with squabbling over revenue raising tourist attractions but everything to do with what the man himself would have wanted, given the choice!
It seems Richard is being betrayed yet again - this time by the Dean and Chapter of York: http://www.historyof york.org.uk/themes/m edieval/king-richard -iii-and-york Meanwhile Leicester are continuing with their finders keepers rhetoric with unseemly haste apparently without any discussion or recognition of other viewpoints. Maybe they know York has the moral high ground. And this is nothing to do with squabbling over revenue raising tourist attractions but everything to do with what the man himself would have wanted, given the choice! millmountgirl
  • Score: -1

6:51pm Thu 7 Feb 13

A.N.OtherYorkie says...

https://submissions.
epetitions.direct.go
v.uk/petitions/38772
/signature/new

100,000 and it may be debated in Parliament

What have you got to lose?
https://submissions. epetitions.direct.go v.uk/petitions/38772 /signature/new 100,000 and it may be debated in Parliament What have you got to lose? A.N.OtherYorkie
  • Score: -1

6:55pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

Jaytea wrote:
The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned.
Paid up member.
The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to

Heavens above, being a member of a church is not all about money. Ever heard of discipleship
[quote][p][bold]Jaytea[/bold] wrote: The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned.[/p][/quote]Paid up member. The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to Heavens above, being a member of a church is not all about money. Ever heard of discipleship Omega Point
  • Score: 1

7:09pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Paul Meoff says...

Omega Point wrote:
Jaytea wrote:
The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned.
Paid up member.
The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to

Heavens above, being a member of a church is not all about money. Ever heard of discipleship
I can't believe anyone really gives a toss over where a bag of old bones are dumped. Get a life.
[quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jaytea[/bold] wrote: The Dean and Chapter have done themselves no favours with their attitude. Out of touch with popular views like the rest of the C of E (I speak as a 'paid up member'). The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to complete the "Minster Revealed" programme. This attitude will do nothing to help gain local support and community involvement. There's just time for them to think again. People might think is was worth paying the £9 entry charge if King Richard returned.[/p][/quote]Paid up member. The Minster still needs to raise a lot of money to Heavens above, being a member of a church is not all about money. Ever heard of discipleship[/p][/quote]I can't believe anyone really gives a toss over where a bag of old bones are dumped. Get a life. Paul Meoff
  • Score: 0

7:12pm Thu 7 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

I suppose it is just a coincidence that the new Dean at the Minster was until very recently also the Dean at Leicester's 'cathedral'? What a disgraceful attitude from the Minster. I live in the south west of England and it seemed obvious to me from the start that Richard III should be reburied in York Minster. It's not just people of the north who think Richard III should be returned to the north. It's sad that he was betrayed in life and has now been betrayed in death. Burial under a carpark was only slightly less ignominious than spending eternity in a Leicester parish church, a town close to his greatest defeat and where his body was humiliatingly paraded through the streets. Those at the Minster involved in this latest decision should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
I suppose it is just a coincidence that the new Dean at the Minster was until very recently also the Dean at Leicester's 'cathedral'? What a disgraceful attitude from the Minster. I live in the south west of England and it seemed obvious to me from the start that Richard III should be reburied in York Minster. It's not just people of the north who think Richard III should be returned to the north. It's sad that he was betrayed in life and has now been betrayed in death. Burial under a carpark was only slightly less ignominious than spending eternity in a Leicester parish church, a town close to his greatest defeat and where his body was humiliatingly paraded through the streets. Those at the Minster involved in this latest decision should be utterly ashamed of themselves. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

7:13pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Sillybillies says...

Stabbed in the back by the Minster authorities, where's the Archbishop?
Stabbed in the back by the Minster authorities, where's the Archbishop? Sillybillies
  • Score: 0

7:17pm Thu 7 Feb 13

bolero says...

Anyway, what about the Alexander/England jolly to Paris? The comments on which were debunked this morning. As this will be too no doubt.
Anyway, what about the Alexander/England jolly to Paris? The comments on which were debunked this morning. As this will be too no doubt. bolero
  • Score: 0

7:22pm Thu 7 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V.

The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug.

After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion.

The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645.

Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments.

It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible.

Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester".

It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days.

But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens.

Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era.

The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture.

The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well.

York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts.

It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York.
The reason Leicester's 'cathedral' doesn't make a charge is because there is nothing of significance to see. It acquired a complete Victorian makeover in the 19th century and nearly everything you can see today, including the spire, tower and most of the fittings are Victorian. It isn't even a Grade I listed building and wasn't made a 'cathedral' until 1927. It is a small parish church, most of which is now less than 150 years old. It is in *no way* a fitting repository for the remains of a medieval King of England and don't try and tell people otherwise.

Leicester, like so many English cities, has been utterly ruined by thoughtless pre-war and post-war redevelopment. It is an eyesore of a quite colossal scale. There very little visual history to see, other than a small handful of buildings like the Guildhall. The rest is staggeringly ugly.
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: Leicester didn't "lose" Richard. Henry VII avoided keeping his body at the Church of the Annunciation in the Newarke, as it contained the tombs of his Lancastrian ancestors - including the wife of Henry IV and the mother of Henry V. The Greyfriar's was a very humble order and putting Richard there, kept his grave out of public sight. Being poor and probably under pressure to get Richard buried as soon as possible, the grave was not grand and roughly dug. After the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the Greyfriar's site was turned into a private mansion. The memorial to Richard, which was seen by Christopher Wren's father in 1612, is thought to have been destroyed during the Siege of Leicester in 1645. Luckily the site was always a private garden and was not built upon with subsequent Georgian and Victorian developments. It had only relatively recently become a car park, for the Leicester Grammar School. When the school moved from the site - the first opportunity in many generations to explore the Greyfrair's remains, became possible. Leicester has a very close affinity with Richard. He had stayed here several times and wrote in 1483 "from my castle at Leicester". It is by sheer chance that Richard found himself in Leicester in 1485. He spent his last night here, because the Ricardian military foces had been building here for several days. But that act of chance has left a strong legacy in Leicester. We have roads, schools and pubs named after Richard III. We have a memorial at the Cathedral. We have a statue in Castle Gardens. Parts of Leicester Cathedral date back to 1086. It is an ancient building. Nowhere near as grand as York Minster, but the site can trace religious origins back to the pre-Christian era. The Guildhall next door is a fantastic building. The Greyfriar's and St Martin's parts of Leicester are full of history and great architecture. The final resting place for Richard III is a suitable location. the Cathedral and other nearby museums are admission free as well. York is a beautiful and historic city. Leicester has a more industrial feel, but also has many very nice parts. It is for Leicester to make sure that the memorial for a king so dear to the people of York, is fitting and takes into account their wishes. Hopefully the memorial will incorporate a design that honours the link with York.[/p][/quote]The reason Leicester's 'cathedral' doesn't make a charge is because there is nothing of significance to see. It acquired a complete Victorian makeover in the 19th century and nearly everything you can see today, including the spire, tower and most of the fittings are Victorian. It isn't even a Grade I listed building and wasn't made a 'cathedral' until 1927. It is a small parish church, most of which is now less than 150 years old. It is in *no way* a fitting repository for the remains of a medieval King of England and don't try and tell people otherwise. Leicester, like so many English cities, has been utterly ruined by thoughtless pre-war and post-war redevelopment. It is an eyesore of a quite colossal scale. There very little visual history to see, other than a small handful of buildings like the Guildhall. The rest is staggeringly ugly. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

8:01pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Seadog says...

Me again. Sorry, but I can't help myself!

Whilst I would love to see Richard re-interred in York, I can't help but smile at all this fuss over his bones. From a purely theological point of view, I do marvel at this obsession with mere mortality! Bones are just so much calcium and surely it really doesn't matter that much what happens to them. One day the Earth will fall into the Sun and everybody's bones (Richard's; yours; mine) will be
atomized anyway.

But what about his soul? Isn't that a tad more important?

I note the York D&C statement "commends" Richard to the care and prayers of the D&C at Leicester. Well, that's all fine and dandy if you believe that posthumous prayer is in any way efficacious. Strictly speaking, the CofE does not recognize the doctrine of purgatory and therefore does not sanction "prayers for the dead" - though she does pray that all "who die in faith" will be raised in glory.

Did Richard die in faith? The simple answer is we don't know.

If he really did murder the "little princes" (which I doubt) in order to secure his position, then it's hard to imagine him bluffing his way past St Peter! Unless, of course, he really did have some sort of "battlefield conversion" moments before the the fatal blow was struck. But the same could apply to Hitler in that last infinitesimal moment as the bullet passed through the barrel of his pistol towards his brain. Salvation is not dependent on what we DO so much as what we BELIEVE, and nobody is automatically excluded, whatever they've done.

We will never know what Richard actually believed as he was being cut down on Bosworth Field, so we have little choice but to commend him to the justice and mercy of God ... irrespective of where his mortal remains end up!

If it's York: great! If Leicester: fine!
Me again. Sorry, but I can't help myself! Whilst I would love to see Richard re-interred in York, I can't help but smile at all this fuss over his bones. From a purely theological point of view, I do marvel at this obsession with mere mortality! Bones are just so much calcium and surely it really doesn't matter that much what happens to them. One day the Earth will fall into the Sun and everybody's bones (Richard's; yours; mine) will be atomized anyway. But what about his soul? Isn't that a tad more important? I note the York D&C statement "commends" Richard to the care and prayers of the D&C at Leicester. Well, that's all fine and dandy if you believe that posthumous prayer is in any way efficacious. Strictly speaking, the CofE does not recognize the doctrine of purgatory and therefore does not sanction "prayers for the dead" - though she does pray that all "who die in faith" will be raised in glory. Did Richard die in faith? The simple answer is we don't know. If he really did murder the "little princes" (which I doubt) in order to secure his position, then it's hard to imagine him bluffing his way past St Peter! Unless, of course, he really did have some sort of "battlefield conversion" moments before the the fatal blow was struck. But the same could apply to Hitler in that last infinitesimal moment as the bullet passed through the barrel of his pistol towards his brain. Salvation is not dependent on what we DO so much as what we BELIEVE, and nobody is automatically excluded, whatever they've done. We will never know what Richard actually believed as he was being cut down on Bosworth Field, so we have little choice but to commend him to the justice and mercy of God ... irrespective of where his mortal remains end up! If it's York: great! If Leicester: fine! Seadog
  • Score: 0

8:32pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Buzz Light-year says...

Ah, Seadog.
Always a welcome oasis :)
Ah, Seadog. Always a welcome oasis :) Buzz Light-year
  • Score: 0

8:34pm Thu 7 Feb 13

pedalling paul says...

jimmy120883 wrote:
Well i think he should be intered at middleham where he grew up. Or like religious relics split up parts of his body and send them to York,Westminster,Mid

dleham and Leicester so eveyone can have a piece,.
His liver could go to Liverpool, his heart to Hartlepool, his arms to Armley, and his knees to Neasden. And what would Littlehampton gain.....?
[quote][p][bold]jimmy120883[/bold] wrote: Well i think he should be intered at middleham where he grew up. Or like religious relics split up parts of his body and send them to York,Westminster,Mid dleham and Leicester so eveyone can have a piece,.[/p][/quote]His liver could go to Liverpool, his heart to Hartlepool, his arms to Armley, and his knees to Neasden. And what would Littlehampton gain.....? pedalling paul
  • Score: 0

8:41pm Thu 7 Feb 13

nearlyman says...

Not to mention Penistone !
Not to mention Penistone ! nearlyman
  • Score: 0

8:46pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Peg Powler says...

Richard loved York and did more for the city and its Minster than any other king. In return, he was loved by the people and they stood by his memory through the centuries of unjust vilification and unproven accusations.

Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.
Richard loved York and did more for the city and its Minster than any other king. In return, he was loved by the people and they stood by his memory through the centuries of unjust vilification and unproven accusations. Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them. Peg Powler
  • Score: 0

8:48pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Woody G Mellor says...

According to Shakespeare, Scunthorpe should get a piece too.
According to Shakespeare, Scunthorpe should get a piece too. Woody G Mellor
  • Score: 0

8:50pm Thu 7 Feb 13

richard22 says...

I think having read most of the comments, I feel with the majority that as Richard of York his final resting place should be York Minster, perhaps its time York diocese started to listen to the majority, not a few supposedly educated individuals who are not in touch with what the people want. It might actually do the C of E a bit of good regarding attendance figures at their services.
I think having read most of the comments, I feel with the majority that as Richard of York his final resting place should be York Minster, perhaps its time York diocese started to listen to the majority, not a few supposedly educated individuals who are not in touch with what the people want. It might actually do the C of E a bit of good regarding attendance figures at their services. richard22
  • Score: 0

9:20pm Thu 7 Feb 13

twoleftfeet says...

It is not recorded anywhere where Richard III wished to be buried.

Why all the fuss? He should be buried were he was found. End of.
It is not recorded anywhere where Richard III wished to be buried. Why all the fuss? He should be buried were he was found. End of. twoleftfeet
  • Score: 1

9:44pm Thu 7 Feb 13

AdrianlovesYorkMinster says...

As somebody who wholeheartedly supported the reburial of Richard III's remains in York Minster I'm understandably disappointed, indeed saddened, to hear that the Dean & Chapter don't also support that proposal. However at the same time I'm fully aware of the normal legal presumprion that human remains, once interred, shouldn't be moved unless compelling reasons can be put forward for doing so. If Richard III were to be moved out of Leicester, a very strong case would have to be made for it and there is no realistic prospect of his reburial at York Minster if the Dean & Chapter of York don't support that. .
As somebody who wholeheartedly supported the reburial of Richard III's remains in York Minster I'm understandably disappointed, indeed saddened, to hear that the Dean & Chapter don't also support that proposal. However at the same time I'm fully aware of the normal legal presumprion that human remains, once interred, shouldn't be moved unless compelling reasons can be put forward for doing so. If Richard III were to be moved out of Leicester, a very strong case would have to be made for it and there is no realistic prospect of his reburial at York Minster if the Dean & Chapter of York don't support that. . AdrianlovesYorkMinster
  • Score: 0

10:18pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Omega Point says...

Peg Powler says...
Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.”

Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up.
Peg Powler says... Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.” Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up. Omega Point
  • Score: 0

10:34pm Thu 7 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

JHardacre wrote:
"When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral."

What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of.

BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain?
Apparently the details on the licence actually read:

"The remains shall, no later than August 31, 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or else be reinterred at St Martin's Cathedral, or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place."

OR IN A BURIALGROUND IN WHICH INTERMENTS MAY LEGALLY TAKE PLACE

That does NOT automatically mean that they have to be reburied in Leicester parish church OR in Leicester.
[quote][p][bold]JHardacre[/bold] wrote: "When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral." What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of. BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain?[/p][/quote]Apparently the details on the licence actually read: "The remains shall, no later than August 31, 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or else be reinterred at St Martin's Cathedral, or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place." OR IN A BURIALGROUND IN WHICH INTERMENTS MAY LEGALLY TAKE PLACE That does NOT automatically mean that they have to be reburied in Leicester parish church OR in Leicester. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: 0

11:03pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Bottesford says...

Woody G Mellor wrote:
The Minster should also remember that it is not just a bunch of bones. It's a persons last wishes we are talking about here. And a Royal one at that!
Is it actually recorded anywhere (by him) that those were Richard III's last wishes, or is an assumption being made about what his preferences were likely to be?
[quote][p][bold]Woody G Mellor[/bold] wrote: The Minster should also remember that it is not just a bunch of bones. It's a persons last wishes we are talking about here. And a Royal one at that![/p][/quote]Is it actually recorded anywhere (by him) that those were Richard III's last wishes, or is an assumption being made about what his preferences were likely to be? Bottesford
  • Score: 1

11:07pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Bottesford says...

richard22 wrote:
I think having read most of the comments, I feel with the majority that as Richard of York his final resting place should be York Minster, perhaps its time York diocese started to listen to the majority, not a few supposedly educated individuals who are not in touch with what the people want. It might actually do the C of E a bit of good regarding attendance figures at their services.
It's not up to the C of E, so it doesn't matter who the York diocese do, or do not listen to. It's not their decision.
[quote][p][bold]richard22[/bold] wrote: I think having read most of the comments, I feel with the majority that as Richard of York his final resting place should be York Minster, perhaps its time York diocese started to listen to the majority, not a few supposedly educated individuals who are not in touch with what the people want. It might actually do the C of E a bit of good regarding attendance figures at their services.[/p][/quote]It's not up to the C of E, so it doesn't matter who the York diocese do, or do not listen to. It's not their decision. Bottesford
  • Score: 0

11:11pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

Marsh41 wrote:
Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral.

This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.
This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .
[quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral. This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.[/p][/quote]This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being . Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

11:17pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Bottesford says...

wolfpaw1972 wrote:
JHardacre wrote:
"When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral."

What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of.

BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain?
Apparently the details on the licence actually read:

"The remains shall, no later than August 31, 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or else be reinterred at St Martin's Cathedral, or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place."

OR IN A BURIALGROUND IN WHICH INTERMENTS MAY LEGALLY TAKE PLACE

That does NOT automatically mean that they have to be reburied in Leicester parish church OR in Leicester.
No, you're right. It doesn't mean the remains have to be reburied in Leicester. It means that the people who did the research, arranged the funding, applied for the Exhumation Order, carried out the excavation and made the discovery get to decide where the body is buried. They were required to make a decision when the Exhumation Order and they have made one. They were under no obligation to put the matter to the public vote. Whatever decision they made would have annoyed someone, but the fact remains that they were the people who found the body. They found it because they took the trouble to work out where it was and to go looking for it - something nobody else has bothered to do for the past 527 years that it's been lying there.
[quote][p][bold]wolfpaw1972[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JHardacre[/bold] wrote: "When the archaeologists found an intact body the Ministry of Justice licence was drawn up in those terms and explicitly named Leicester Cathedral." What do you moaning minnies not understand about the above. Permission for excavation clearly stated that the body should remain in Leicester. The 'views' of a few people in York have got nothing to do with it. End of. BTW why do people confuse "The House of York" with the 'Town' of York. Purposely obtuse or just of little brain?[/p][/quote]Apparently the details on the licence actually read: "The remains shall, no later than August 31, 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or else be reinterred at St Martin's Cathedral, or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place." OR IN A BURIALGROUND IN WHICH INTERMENTS MAY LEGALLY TAKE PLACE That does NOT automatically mean that they have to be reburied in Leicester parish church OR in Leicester.[/p][/quote]No, you're right. It doesn't mean the remains have to be reburied in Leicester. It means that the people who did the research, arranged the funding, applied for the Exhumation Order, carried out the excavation and made the discovery get to decide where the body is buried. They were required to make a decision when the Exhumation Order and they have made one. They were under no obligation to put the matter to the public vote. Whatever decision they made would have annoyed someone, but the fact remains that they were the people who found the body. They found it because they took the trouble to work out where it was and to go looking for it - something nobody else has bothered to do for the past 527 years that it's been lying there. Bottesford
  • Score: 1

11:18pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

Omega Point wrote:
Peg Powler says...
Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.”

Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up.
Agreed . Who are these People ??.

Now we write to the Duke of Lancaster to intervene ??? .
[quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: Peg Powler says... Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.” Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up.[/p][/quote]Agreed . Who are these People ??. Now we write to the Duke of Lancaster to intervene ??? . Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

11:21pm Thu 7 Feb 13

Bottesford says...

Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
Marsh41 wrote:
Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral.

This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.
This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .
I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster?
You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.?
[quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral. This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.[/p][/quote]This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .[/p][/quote]I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster? You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.? Bottesford
  • Score: 1

11:34pm Thu 7 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Bottesford wrote:
Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
Marsh41 wrote:
Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral.

This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.
This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .
I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster?
You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.?
Professor AJ Pollard, the most respected living historian on the Wars of the Roses, had this to say:

"In 1484, as king, he initiated the foundation of a grandiose college of 100 priests within the Minster of York, on which work had started before his death. This was to have been a chantry, dedicated to Our Lady, St George and St Ninian, to pray for his and his kindred's souls. At the time, he almost certainly intended to be buried in this mausoleum. Had he enjoyed a long reign, he may well ultimately have preferred Westminster, or St George's Windsor. But he did not. If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster."
[quote][p][bold]Bottesford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral. This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.[/p][/quote]This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .[/p][/quote]I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster? You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.?[/p][/quote]Professor AJ Pollard, the most respected living historian on the Wars of the Roses, had this to say: "In 1484, as king, he initiated the foundation of a grandiose college of 100 priests within the Minster of York, on which work had started before his death. This was to have been a chantry, dedicated to Our Lady, St George and St Ninian, to pray for his and his kindred's souls. At the time, he almost certainly intended to be buried in this mausoleum. Had he enjoyed a long reign, he may well ultimately have preferred Westminster, or St George's Windsor. But he did not. If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster." wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -2

1:53am Fri 8 Feb 13

expubcrawler says...

Pollyconn wrote:
I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York.

I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made.

Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him.

At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now?

As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?
I agree with Pollyconn:

As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?
[quote][p][bold]Pollyconn[/bold] wrote: I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York. I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made. Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him. At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now? As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?[/p][/quote]I agree with Pollyconn: As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch? expubcrawler
  • Score: 0

8:32am Fri 8 Feb 13

roclank2000 says...

14,312 have signed.
14,312 have signed. roclank2000
  • Score: -1

8:55am Fri 8 Feb 13

ReginaldBiscuit says...

wolfpaw1972 wrote:
Bottesford wrote:
Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
Marsh41 wrote:
Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral.

This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.
This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .
I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster?
You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.?
Professor AJ Pollard, the most respected living historian on the Wars of the Roses, had this to say:

"In 1484, as king, he initiated the foundation of a grandiose college of 100 priests within the Minster of York, on which work had started before his death. This was to have been a chantry, dedicated to Our Lady, St George and St Ninian, to pray for his and his kindred's souls. At the time, he almost certainly intended to be buried in this mausoleum. Had he enjoyed a long reign, he may well ultimately have preferred Westminster, or St George's Windsor. But he did not. If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster."
"If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster."

Spot on. Stuff what people think or want. Richard wanted to be buried in York. Give him some respect in death and obey his wishes. He didn't lament for Leicester, he loved York, he loved North Yorkshire. The whole Richard III saga has been hijacked and manipulated to try and give Leicester a higher profile.

When human remains are discovered and identified, it is the custom to repatriate them to be buried either near the immediate family or if that is not possible, to carry out the last known wishes or the deceased regarding disposal of their mortal remains.
[quote][p][bold]wolfpaw1972[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bottesford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marsh41[/bold] wrote: Of course, the Dean of York Minster used to be the Dean of Leicester Cathedral. This is a disgraceful statement. He wanted to be buried in York Minster. Leicester Cathedral only became such in the 1920s and is little more than a parish church.[/p][/quote]This stinks -- York Minster should pull its socks up and stop raising funds by turning this beautiful building into a lawned interior and trapeze artists swinging from the roof while people where having a most expensive meal .I am glad to see the last Dean and his temporary replacement go . Heaven help Beverly Minster now . I have a lot to say as a Yorkist but i will close . For the time being .[/p][/quote]I'll ask the same question I asked earlier. Where does Richard III record a wish to be buried at York Minster? You say he "wanted to be buried in York Minster". If that was his wish, it should be respected - but where is it recorded, by Richard III that such was his wish.?[/p][/quote]Professor AJ Pollard, the most respected living historian on the Wars of the Roses, had this to say: "In 1484, as king, he initiated the foundation of a grandiose college of 100 priests within the Minster of York, on which work had started before his death. This was to have been a chantry, dedicated to Our Lady, St George and St Ninian, to pray for his and his kindred's souls. At the time, he almost certainly intended to be buried in this mausoleum. Had he enjoyed a long reign, he may well ultimately have preferred Westminster, or St George's Windsor. But he did not. If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster."[/p][/quote]"If the king's own last known wishes are to be honoured, his remains should be reburied in York Minster." Spot on. Stuff what people think or want. Richard wanted to be buried in York. Give him some respect in death and obey his wishes. He didn't lament for Leicester, he loved York, he loved North Yorkshire. The whole Richard III saga has been hijacked and manipulated to try and give Leicester a higher profile. When human remains are discovered and identified, it is the custom to repatriate them to be buried either near the immediate family or if that is not possible, to carry out the last known wishes or the deceased regarding disposal of their mortal remains. ReginaldBiscuit
  • Score: 0

9:25am Fri 8 Feb 13

deckhanddave says...

Seems like the last wishes of a King of the House Of York don't count for much. Might have something to do with the House Of Tudor, whom overthrew him, being in power.
Seems like the last wishes of a King of the House Of York don't count for much. Might have something to do with the House Of Tudor, whom overthrew him, being in power. deckhanddave
  • Score: 0

9:29am Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place...

The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial.

The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories.

Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s.

Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign".

Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist.

The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years.

The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway.

St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country.

St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane.

The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building.

All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings.

The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive.

We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays.

Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England.
5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place... The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial. The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories. Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s. Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign". Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist. The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years. The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway. St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country. St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane. The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building. All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings. The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive. We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays. Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England. Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

9:44am Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

There still remains no documentary proof of Richard's wish to be buried anywhere - let alone York.

Yes he did initiate plans for a Chantry at York Minster. But he also initiated building plans or supported institutions in London, Nottingham, Warwick, Cambridge and many other places.
There still remains no documentary proof of Richard's wish to be buried anywhere - let alone York. Yes he did initiate plans for a Chantry at York Minster. But he also initiated building plans or supported institutions in London, Nottingham, Warwick, Cambridge and many other places. Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

10:19am Fri 8 Feb 13

Chunter says...

Very few people have bothered to read the licence granted by the Ministry of Justice to the University of Leicester. I found the following in the Daily Mirror:

"But the MoJ issued a statement today saying the decision lay with the Leicester University archaeologists who found Richard’s remains under a car park in the city.

It said: "When applying for an archaeological exhumation licence, the applicant must state that the remains will be laid to rest at a suitable location.

"The licence we issued states that the applicant (the University of Leicester) would, no later than August 31, 2014, deposit the remains at Jewry Wall Museum or have them interred at St Martin's Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place.

"The precise location of reburial is now for the University of Leicester."

(http://www.mirror.c
o.uk/news/uk-news/ri
chard-iii-york-loses
-bid-1592971)
Very few people have bothered to read the licence granted by the Ministry of Justice to the University of Leicester. I found the following in the Daily Mirror: "But the MoJ issued a statement today saying the decision lay with the Leicester University archaeologists who found Richard’s remains under a car park in the city. It said: "When applying for an archaeological exhumation licence, the applicant must state that the remains will be laid to rest at a suitable location. "The licence we issued states that the applicant (the University of Leicester) would, no later than August 31, 2014, deposit the remains at Jewry Wall Museum or have them interred at St Martin's Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place. "The precise location of reburial is now for the University of Leicester." (http://www.mirror.c o.uk/news/uk-news/ri chard-iii-york-loses -bid-1592971) Chunter
  • Score: 1

10:40am Fri 8 Feb 13

millmountgirl says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place... The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial. The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories. Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s. Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign". Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist. The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years. The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway. St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country. St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane. The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building. All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings. The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive. We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays. Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England.
I'm surprised to hear you use the fact that Shakespeare acted at the Guildhall in Leicester and picked up the stories of King Lear and Richard III as if that's another reason why his remains should stay there. Given Shakespeare was the main, though not only culprit, to villify his name I would think it's another good reason NOT to leave him there.
I understand you're proud of your city and that there are no doubt some wonderful old buildings in existence but the fact remains that Richard had very little, if anything, to do with Leicester during his lifetime and very much to do with York and Yorkshire. Leicester is only associated with his death, not his life, which was lived very much in the North, and Yorkshire in particular.
Interestingly the following is taken from an article on the Leicester University website entitled RIchard III - Man and Myth:

"During his life Richard forged extremely close links with the neglected and unruly north of England, both as duke of Gloucester and later as king. He raised the churches of Middleham and Barnard Castle to collegiate status, championed the interests of the City of York, founded the Council of the North, and planned a large chantry chapel in York Minster consisting of 100 priests. His retaliatory raids into Scotland, which culminated in the successful campaign of 1482, were welcomed by people in border villages who had suffered at the hands of the Scottish Border Reivers.

Little wonder that Richard’s death at the battle of Bosworth was received with great sadness by many whose lives had been improved, especially in the north. The council minutes of York’s mayor and aldermen record that King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us, was through great treason … piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city. A few days later these same men commemorated King Richard as the most famous prince of blessed memory".

Leicester isn't mentioned anywhere in the article.

We all know, even the people of Leicester, if Richard himself could have a say, he would choose York.
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: 5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place... The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial. The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories. Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s. Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign". Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist. The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years. The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway. St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country. St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane. The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building. All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings. The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive. We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays. Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England.[/p][/quote]I'm surprised to hear you use the fact that Shakespeare acted at the Guildhall in Leicester and picked up the stories of King Lear and Richard III as if that's another reason why his remains should stay there. Given Shakespeare was the main, though not only culprit, to villify his name I would think it's another good reason NOT to leave him there. I understand you're proud of your city and that there are no doubt some wonderful old buildings in existence but the fact remains that Richard had very little, if anything, to do with Leicester during his lifetime and very much to do with York and Yorkshire. Leicester is only associated with his death, not his life, which was lived very much in the North, and Yorkshire in particular. Interestingly the following is taken from an article on the Leicester University website entitled RIchard III - Man and Myth: "During his life Richard forged extremely close links with the neglected and unruly north of England, both as duke of Gloucester and later as king. He raised the churches of Middleham and Barnard Castle to collegiate status, championed the interests of the City of York, founded the Council of the North, and planned a large chantry chapel in York Minster consisting of 100 priests. His retaliatory raids into Scotland, which culminated in the successful campaign of 1482, were welcomed by people in border villages who had suffered at the hands of the Scottish Border Reivers. Little wonder that Richard’s death at the battle of Bosworth was received with great sadness by many whose lives had been improved, especially in the north. The council minutes of York’s mayor and aldermen record that King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us, was through great treason … piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city. A few days later these same men commemorated King Richard as the most famous prince of blessed memory". Leicester isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. We all know, even the people of Leicester, if Richard himself could have a say, he would choose York. millmountgirl
  • Score: -1

10:57am Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

If Richard was so in love with York, then why did he spend so much of his two year reign in Nottingham? He spent in excess of 200 days of his short reign in Nottingham. At his self-termed "Castle of Care".

He would have spent a fair proportion of the rest of his reign in London, York and other places all over the country.

He stayed in Leicester a few times and wrote "from my Castle in Leicester" in 1483.

I've already asked before whether the whole of York really supported Richard III at the time of Bosworth? Henry Percy, a York man, failed to commit his troops at Bosworth and helped bring about Richard's death.

It is known that much of York had Lancastrian sympathies. That is true isnt it?
If Richard was so in love with York, then why did he spend so much of his two year reign in Nottingham? He spent in excess of 200 days of his short reign in Nottingham. At his self-termed "Castle of Care". He would have spent a fair proportion of the rest of his reign in London, York and other places all over the country. He stayed in Leicester a few times and wrote "from my Castle in Leicester" in 1483. I've already asked before whether the whole of York really supported Richard III at the time of Bosworth? Henry Percy, a York man, failed to commit his troops at Bosworth and helped bring about Richard's death. It is known that much of York had Lancastrian sympathies. That is true isnt it? Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

11:32am Fri 8 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place...

The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial.

The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories.

Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s.

Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign".

Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist.

The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years.

The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway.

St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country.

St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane.

The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building.

All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings.

The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive.

We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays.

Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England.
You mention Pevsner. A more recent historian, Simon Jenkins, said that "Modern Leicester is dire".
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: 5,601 have signed the Leicester petition, even though we know we are going to continue to be Richard's last resting place... The correspondent who called Leicester "staggeringly ugly". That is very unfair. Leicester is a large city, which was once very industrial. The metropolitan population is 772,400, so it is a pretty big place. It is not likely to look like York, even though we have many similarities in our city histories. Leicester was touched far greater than York by the Industrial Revolution. It was also adversely affected by the building of a ring road in the 1960s. Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, founder of The Victorian Society said of Leicester's Old Town, "The group of Castle, St Mary, the Newarke, St Nicholas, the Roman Baths, St Martin and the Guildhall is something the patriotic citizen of Leicester might proudly take any visitor to, British of foreign". Sadly the ring road was ploughed through this part of the Old Town, but all of those places still exist. The Castle and St Mary de Castro church still remain in their own beautiful precinct, with some Georgian cottages, original castle gates and one of the best Great Hall's of the Middle Ages. The Castle was the ducal home of the Lancastrian nobility for may years. The Newarke still contains the remains of the Church of the Annunciation, in the basement of the fine Hawthorn Building. The ancient Newarke walls remain in situ and there are some great medieval buildings including Trinity Hospital, Skeffington House, the Chantry House and the Magazine Gateway. St Nicholas Church is amongst the oldest buildings in the UK and is partly built from Roman masonry. It sits right next door to the Jewry wall, the second largest piece of A Roman building left in the country. St Martin's church is far more ancient than its 1927 conversion to a Cathedral. Leicester had a bishop at least as far back as the 7th century, but this was lost after the Danish invasion and was sadly not restored for many centuries. St Martin's is the nearest religious building to Richard's grave. It is literally a few steps away, across Peacock Lane. The Guidhall is two steps away from St Martin's and is a very well preserved medieval building. This will be the home of the Richard III exhibition, until the opening of the new Museum over the road, in the fine Alderman Newton building. All around the burial site are some very fine buildings. The St Martin's area retains a very olde worlde atmosphere, with it's own shopping centre and a wealth of independent retail in The Lanes and Arcades. Greyfriar's is a very nice old part of Leicester and is largely Georgian in architectural style. Leicester Market is nearby and is surrounded by historic buildings. The New Town part of Leicester including Town Hall Square, Market Street, Belvoir Steet and The New Walk are all close to the burial site. The High Street and Highcross Leicester are a stones throw away from Greyfriar's. The Highcross was named after the geographical centre of the country and the street on which Richard spent his last night alive. We have many museums, the majority of which are free; that tell the long and fascinating history of our fine city. By legend Leicester was founded by King Lear in 800BC. It was certainly a settlement well before Roman times (in fact the regional capital) and became an important site during the occupation of Rome. Leicester was a capital of a Saxon kingdom. It was a ducal centre during medieveal times. Shakespeare is reputed to have acted at the Guildhall and picked up the local stories of King Lear and Richard III - that led him to write these plays. Leicester has a very special place in English history. It is a right and fitting place to rebury Richard III, the King of England.[/p][/quote]You mention Pevsner. A more recent historian, Simon Jenkins, said that "Modern Leicester is dire". wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

12:31pm Fri 8 Feb 13

millmountgirl says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
If Richard was so in love with York, then why did he spend so much of his two year reign in Nottingham? He spent in excess of 200 days of his short reign in Nottingham. At his self-termed "Castle of Care". He would have spent a fair proportion of the rest of his reign in London, York and other places all over the country. He stayed in Leicester a few times and wrote "from my Castle in Leicester" in 1483. I've already asked before whether the whole of York really supported Richard III at the time of Bosworth? Henry Percy, a York man, failed to commit his troops at Bosworth and helped bring about Richard's death. It is known that much of York had Lancastrian sympathies. That is true isnt it?
It's true that Henry Percy turned traitor at Bosworth. However, he was lynched by the people of York in April 1489 during a tax riot so got his just deserts!
It's also true that in the early days of the wars of the roses there was Lancastrian support in the North. However by the time of Richard's reign the City of York and most of the north was loyal to Richard. It's recorded that whilst Richard was at Nottingham Castle preparing to do battle with Henry Tudor he received two messengers sent from the City Fathers of York expressing surprise that he hadn't sent to them for a contingent of troops. This was due to the fact that the treacherous Percy should have called out the men of York but failed to do so. The City of York then pledged its full support and loyalty and duly despatched 80 well equipped horsement for Richard's army and busied themselves in raising more soldiers. In short, Henry Percy did not represent the people of York.
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: If Richard was so in love with York, then why did he spend so much of his two year reign in Nottingham? He spent in excess of 200 days of his short reign in Nottingham. At his self-termed "Castle of Care". He would have spent a fair proportion of the rest of his reign in London, York and other places all over the country. He stayed in Leicester a few times and wrote "from my Castle in Leicester" in 1483. I've already asked before whether the whole of York really supported Richard III at the time of Bosworth? Henry Percy, a York man, failed to commit his troops at Bosworth and helped bring about Richard's death. It is known that much of York had Lancastrian sympathies. That is true isnt it?[/p][/quote]It's true that Henry Percy turned traitor at Bosworth. However, he was lynched by the people of York in April 1489 during a tax riot so got his just deserts! It's also true that in the early days of the wars of the roses there was Lancastrian support in the North. However by the time of Richard's reign the City of York and most of the north was loyal to Richard. It's recorded that whilst Richard was at Nottingham Castle preparing to do battle with Henry Tudor he received two messengers sent from the City Fathers of York expressing surprise that he hadn't sent to them for a contingent of troops. This was due to the fact that the treacherous Percy should have called out the men of York but failed to do so. The City of York then pledged its full support and loyalty and duly despatched 80 well equipped horsement for Richard's army and busied themselves in raising more soldiers. In short, Henry Percy did not represent the people of York. millmountgirl
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

I have no idea who Simon Jenkins is, but to call my city "dire" is an absolute insult. Do you have a reference for this statement?

It would be interesting to know why Mr Jenkin's thinks Leicester is "dire".
I have no idea who Simon Jenkins is, but to call my city "dire" is an absolute insult. Do you have a reference for this statement? It would be interesting to know why Mr Jenkin's thinks Leicester is "dire". Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

2:58pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Hey wolfpaw - where does that Simon Jenkins quote come from? Do you have a source please?
Hey wolfpaw - where does that Simon Jenkins quote come from? Do you have a source please? Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

3:41pm Fri 8 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
I have no idea who Simon Jenkins is, but to call my city "dire" is an absolute insult. Do you have a reference for this statement?

It would be interesting to know why Mr Jenkin's thinks Leicester is "dire".
It comes from his book 'England's 1000 Best Churches' on the section about St Mary de Castro: "Modern Leicester is dire".

I'm surprised you've not heard of him. He's a former chairman of the National Trust.
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: I have no idea who Simon Jenkins is, but to call my city "dire" is an absolute insult. Do you have a reference for this statement? It would be interesting to know why Mr Jenkin's thinks Leicester is "dire".[/p][/quote]It comes from his book 'England's 1000 Best Churches' on the section about St Mary de Castro: "Modern Leicester is dire". I'm surprised you've not heard of him. He's a former chairman of the National Trust. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

4:25pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Ah right. Our Mr Pevsner described the church as "a showpiece of late Norman sumptuousness". Simon Jenkins, describes the sedilia as "Leicester's Treasure".

St Mary de Castro is a great church. Many in Leicester suggested it as an alternative burial site for Richard III.

Very unlikely and inappropriate though, as it was the church of the Lancastrian ducal castle...

I'll have to seek out the book you have quoted from and then seek out Mr Jenkins!
Ah right. Our Mr Pevsner described the church as "a showpiece of late Norman sumptuousness". Simon Jenkins, describes the sedilia as "Leicester's Treasure". St Mary de Castro is a great church. Many in Leicester suggested it as an alternative burial site for Richard III. Very unlikely and inappropriate though, as it was the church of the Lancastrian ducal castle... I'll have to seek out the book you have quoted from and then seek out Mr Jenkins! Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

4:40pm Fri 8 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
Ah right. Our Mr Pevsner described the church as "a showpiece of late Norman sumptuousness". Simon Jenkins, describes the sedilia as "Leicester's Treasure".

St Mary de Castro is a great church. Many in Leicester suggested it as an alternative burial site for Richard III.

Very unlikely and inappropriate though, as it was the church of the Lancastrian ducal castle...

I'll have to seek out the book you have quoted from and then seek out Mr Jenkins!
If the Lancastrian connections to St Mary de Castro rule out that church then Leicester's strong Lancastrian connections generally should rule out the entire city.
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: Ah right. Our Mr Pevsner described the church as "a showpiece of late Norman sumptuousness". Simon Jenkins, describes the sedilia as "Leicester's Treasure". St Mary de Castro is a great church. Many in Leicester suggested it as an alternative burial site for Richard III. Very unlikely and inappropriate though, as it was the church of the Lancastrian ducal castle... I'll have to seek out the book you have quoted from and then seek out Mr Jenkins![/p][/quote]If the Lancastrian connections to St Mary de Castro rule out that church then Leicester's strong Lancastrian connections generally should rule out the entire city. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

4:52pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

No it doesn't. the Greyfriar's was not Lancastrian and neither was St Martin's. York was Lancastrian as well remember. Richard III was well regarded in Leicester.

How could anything "rule out the entire city", in relation to the burial of Richard? He has already been here for half a millenia. The Law states he will remain here. There is no ruling out...
No it doesn't. the Greyfriar's was not Lancastrian and neither was St Martin's. York was Lancastrian as well remember. Richard III was well regarded in Leicester. How could anything "rule out the entire city", in relation to the burial of Richard? He has already been here for half a millenia. The Law states he will remain here. There is no ruling out... Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 1

5:48pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Coriolanus says...

Perhaps the bones should be interred at the home of the gorgeous blonde lady from the Richard III Soc. She might at least say regular masses, given R3's apparent wishes, which he certainly won't get in Leicester. I was touched to see how disappointed she was on the C4 documentary when she was told he did actually have a back problem.
Losing at Bosworth was unfortunate, having the progeny of the bloke that defeated him dissolve the institution he was buried in was a bummer, but being reinterred in a small church in a dump of a midlands town takes the biscuit. Bad luck comes in IIIs.
Richard III Soc woman, do the decent thing: take him home with you or campaign to bury him in York.
Perhaps the bones should be interred at the home of the gorgeous blonde lady from the Richard III Soc. She might at least say regular masses, given R3's apparent wishes, which he certainly won't get in Leicester. I was touched to see how disappointed she was on the C4 documentary when she was told he did actually have a back problem. Losing at Bosworth was unfortunate, having the progeny of the bloke that defeated him dissolve the institution he was buried in was a bummer, but being reinterred in a small church in a dump of a midlands town takes the biscuit. Bad luck comes in IIIs. Richard III Soc woman, do the decent thing: take him home with you or campaign to bury him in York. Coriolanus
  • Score: -2

6:43pm Fri 8 Feb 13

brummiebob says...

bloodaxe wrote:
brummiebob wrote:
Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!!
No, he gave it.
That makes more sense thank you.
[quote][p][bold]bloodaxe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brummiebob[/bold] wrote: Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!![/p][/quote]No, he gave it.[/p][/quote]That makes more sense thank you. brummiebob
  • Score: 0

6:48pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Peg Powler says...

Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
Omega Point wrote:
Peg Powler says...
Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.”

Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up.
Agreed . Who are these People ??.

Now we write to the Duke of Lancaster to intervene ??? .
Who are we? YORKISTS!!!
[quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Omega Point[/bold] wrote: Peg Powler says... Now, the Minster authorities have also betrayed and abandoned Richard, "to the grete heaviness of this citie". Shame on them.” Betrayed and abandoned ! Good grief grow up.[/p][/quote]Agreed . Who are these People ??. Now we write to the Duke of Lancaster to intervene ??? .[/p][/quote]Who are we? YORKISTS!!! Peg Powler
  • Score: 0

6:53pm Fri 8 Feb 13

deckhanddave says...

Why did this discussion degenerate into slagging Leicester or posturing ones knowledge of history to show how clever one is? There are good reasons for his being buried in both York and Leicester. I personally feel it should be York, if for no other reason than it was and apparently still is, very loyal to him.
Why did this discussion degenerate into slagging Leicester or posturing ones knowledge of history to show how clever one is? There are good reasons for his being buried in both York and Leicester. I personally feel it should be York, if for no other reason than it was and apparently still is, very loyal to him. deckhanddave
  • Score: -1

6:57pm Fri 8 Feb 13

spottycow says...

ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK
ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK spottycow
  • Score: 0

7:08pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Coriolanus says...

deckhanddave wrote:
Why did this discussion degenerate into slagging Leicester or posturing ones knowledge of history to show how clever one is? There are good reasons for his being buried in both York and Leicester. I personally feel it should be York, if for no other reason than it was and apparently still is, very loyal to him.
Unless they pop him back in the same hole(no pun intended), there are no good reasons to bury him somewhere else in Leicester. York is nice; Leicester is not. York Minster is a truly fine building; Leicester Cathedral is not. R3 made preparations for his own burial here. Unfortunately, he got caught short along the way. I could see an argument for not disturbing his grave or, having ascertained his whereabouts, making good his reburial in that grave; but there is no argument for moving him from one part of Leicester to another.
[quote][p][bold]deckhanddave[/bold] wrote: Why did this discussion degenerate into slagging Leicester or posturing ones knowledge of history to show how clever one is? There are good reasons for his being buried in both York and Leicester. I personally feel it should be York, if for no other reason than it was and apparently still is, very loyal to him.[/p][/quote]Unless they pop him back in the same hole(no pun intended), there are no good reasons to bury him somewhere else in Leicester. York is nice; Leicester is not. York Minster is a truly fine building; Leicester Cathedral is not. R3 made preparations for his own burial here. Unfortunately, he got caught short along the way. I could see an argument for not disturbing his grave or, having ascertained his whereabouts, making good his reburial in that grave; but there is no argument for moving him from one part of Leicester to another. Coriolanus
  • Score: -1

11:22pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

spottycow wrote:
ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK
I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please .
[quote][p][bold]spottycow[/bold] wrote: ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK[/p][/quote]I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please . Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

11:28pm Fri 8 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
spottycow wrote:
ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK
I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please .
Well we know the new Dean of York Minster arrived in her post straight from being Dean of Leicester... I think that alone is enough for questions to be raised.

Also, the descendents of Richard III are calling for his remains to be reinterred at York Minster:

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/uk-england-yor
k-north-yorkshire-21
383950
[quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spottycow[/bold] wrote: ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK[/p][/quote]I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please .[/p][/quote]Well we know the new Dean of York Minster arrived in her post straight from being Dean of Leicester... I think that alone is enough for questions to be raised. Also, the descendents of Richard III are calling for his remains to be reinterred at York Minster: http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/uk-england-yor k-north-yorkshire-21 383950 wolfpaw1972
  • Score: -1

11:40pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

wolfpaw1972 wrote:
Yorkie-Clifton wrote:
spottycow wrote:
ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK
I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please .
Well we know the new Dean of York Minster arrived in her post straight from being Dean of Leicester... I think that alone is enough for questions to be raised.

Also, the descendents of Richard III are calling for his remains to be reinterred at York Minster:

http://www.bbc.co.uk

/news/uk-england-yor

k-north-yorkshire-21

383950
I think a public enquiry should be made to investigate The Dean and Chapter of York Minster . More corrupt than i could even imagine . Yes seems very CORRUPT .
[quote][p][bold]wolfpaw1972[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yorkie-Clifton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spottycow[/bold] wrote: ST-FFthe clergy at YORK MINSTER they are only looking after the minster on our the publics behalf and if we want RICHARD home and buried in the MINSTER the they should help us and get off their high horses and not hinder the YORKSHIRE FOLK[/p][/quote]I would be interested to know -- Who are the Chapter of York Minster , who is the Chairman ?? Where do they come from ? Are they York people ?? If anyone can help me i would be grateful as would the people who are interested in this concerning situation . Maybe The Press could help in naming these people and explaining their role --- Please .[/p][/quote]Well we know the new Dean of York Minster arrived in her post straight from being Dean of Leicester... I think that alone is enough for questions to be raised. Also, the descendents of Richard III are calling for his remains to be reinterred at York Minster: http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/uk-england-yor k-north-yorkshire-21 383950[/p][/quote]I think a public enquiry should be made to investigate The Dean and Chapter of York Minster . More corrupt than i could even imagine . Yes seems very CORRUPT . Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

2:39am Sat 9 Feb 13

Marsh41 says...

You might like to contact the York Minster website to comment on how inappropriate it is that the Dean of York has made this decision taking into consideration that she was the Dean of Leicester when the exhumation took place. There's a clear conflict of interest there. No abusive comments please.

info@yorkminster.org
You might like to contact the York Minster website to comment on how inappropriate it is that the Dean of York has made this decision taking into consideration that she was the Dean of Leicester when the exhumation took place. There's a clear conflict of interest there. No abusive comments please. info@yorkminster.org Marsh41
  • Score: 0

11:22am Sat 9 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

I notice that a Mr Stephen Galloway is a member of The Cathedral Council ??
I notice that a Mr Stephen Galloway is a member of The Cathedral Council ?? Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

11:41am Sat 9 Feb 13

Richard Andrew Foster says...

brummiebob wrote:
Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!!
Wrong Richard! That refers to Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York, and father of Richard III.

And an easy way to remember the colours of the rainbow!
[quote][p][bold]brummiebob[/bold] wrote: Did Richard of York gain battle in vain!!![/p][/quote]Wrong Richard! That refers to Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York, and father of Richard III. And an easy way to remember the colours of the rainbow! Richard Andrew Foster
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Sat 9 Feb 13

the_boy_03 says...

Why didn't CYC contact the organisers of the dig when it started?
This project wasn't kept a secret.
CYC could have contributed to it and done a deal with the uni and organised his burial in York.
Then the correct documentation could have been drawn up.
That way if the Minster didn't want anything to do with it he could have been buried at one of his other churches.

York has had hundreds of years to debunk the myths surrounding it's new favorite son and find his body but done nothing about it.
You can't really complain if you've missed your chance.

Pity we never treated him like the Tour De France and sent a delegation down the road to sort all this out last year and explain why it was important for York to have him back.

Also he wasn't murdered he was killed in battle as many of York's sons have they have been left where or near to where they fell as is the tradition.

Likewise the Queen's uncle died during WW1.
His burial site was lost until 2012 when a headstone was placed in the CWGC cemetary close to were he fell.
The Queen didn't get him moved back here she respecte the tradition.
I wouln't hold your breath that she'll intervine in this case.

BTW are CYC using this as a "Falklands" style smokescreen?
is James "Kertchner" Alexander using this to keep council tax rises and charges for green bins of the front page?
Why didn't CYC contact the organisers of the dig when it started? This project wasn't kept a secret. CYC could have contributed to it and done a deal with the uni and organised his burial in York. Then the correct documentation could have been drawn up. That way if the Minster didn't want anything to do with it he could have been buried at one of his other churches. York has had hundreds of years to debunk the myths surrounding it's new favorite son and find his body but done nothing about it. You can't really complain if you've missed your chance. Pity we never treated him like the Tour De France and sent a delegation down the road to sort all this out last year and explain why it was important for York to have him back. Also he wasn't murdered he was killed in battle as many of York's sons have they have been left where or near to where they fell as is the tradition. Likewise the Queen's uncle died during WW1. His burial site was lost until 2012 when a headstone was placed in the CWGC cemetary close to were he fell. The Queen didn't get him moved back here she respecte the tradition. I wouln't hold your breath that she'll intervine in this case. BTW are CYC using this as a "Falklands" style smokescreen? is James "Kertchner" Alexander using this to keep council tax rises and charges for green bins of the front page? the_boy_03
  • Score: 1

2:11pm Sat 9 Feb 13

deckhanddave says...

I wonder if the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu has any opinion on all this? If you read this, how about sharing your feelings on this subject.
I wonder if the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu has any opinion on all this? If you read this, how about sharing your feelings on this subject. deckhanddave
  • Score: 0

2:31pm Sat 9 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Surely it's up to the descendants of Richard III to decide where he should be buried, and apparenty they have spoken out in favour of York Minster. That must take precedence over the 'bit of paper' being waved around in Leicester.
Surely it's up to the descendants of Richard III to decide where he should be buried, and apparenty they have spoken out in favour of York Minster. That must take precedence over the 'bit of paper' being waved around in Leicester. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: 0

4:56pm Sat 9 Feb 13

Pishi1 says...

He grew up in Yorkshire, and as anyone knows - where you grow up is where you consider home. Quite frankly if I was buried in Leicester it'd be a fate worse than death, if it were not already death!
Could the reason York Minster don't want him interred there have something to do with the fact that The Dean, until recently was Dean of Leicester?! The Yorkist King should come home to rest and it's what his descendants want, surely they should have the final say.
He grew up in Yorkshire, and as anyone knows - where you grow up is where you consider home. Quite frankly if I was buried in Leicester it'd be a fate worse than death, if it were not already death! Could the reason York Minster don't want him interred there have something to do with the fact that The Dean, until recently was Dean of Leicester?! The Yorkist King should come home to rest and it's what his descendants want, surely they should have the final say. Pishi1
  • Score: -1

7:54pm Sat 9 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Pollyconn wrote:
I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York.

I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made.

Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him.

At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now?

As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?
Quite clearly you are not from Leicester or have ever been to St Mary De Castro or the Cathedral, or you would have seen that the Cathedral is next door to the greyfriars monastery ruins. Leicester was a city many centuries before St Martins became the cathedral, but it had it's city status removed long before King Richard, so we were robbed once, but shan't be again... he stays where he has been residing for the last 500 years! hands off grave robbers!
[quote][p][bold]Pollyconn[/bold] wrote: I find it very sad indeed that Richard's last wishes have not been taken into account, and neither has the fact that he donated funds to the Minster in his lifetime and was greatly loved by the people of York. I fully appreciate the law regarding the reburial having to take place in the nearest consecrated ground. However, it mustn't be forgotten this was an anointed king of England and I feel certain an exception could be made. Moreover, Leicester Cathedral isn't the actual nearest consecrated ground to where his body was unearthed. That would be the church of St Mary De Castro, but this fact has conveniently been overlooked. Leicester Cathedral didn't actually become a cathedral until 1927! It would not have been known as such to Richard. York Minster, however, apparently meant a great to deal to him. At the press conference on Monday it was stated that Richard was buried at Greyfriars as a form of insult, it being the mausoleum for the Lancastrian fallen. Must this insult be perpetuated now? As much as I would love to see Richard buried at York, however, would not Westminster Abbey be even more fitting for the last Plantagenet monarch?[/p][/quote]Quite clearly you are not from Leicester or have ever been to St Mary De Castro or the Cathedral, or you would have seen that the Cathedral is next door to the greyfriars monastery ruins. Leicester was a city many centuries before St Martins became the cathedral, but it had it's city status removed long before King Richard, so we were robbed once, but shan't be again... he stays where he has been residing for the last 500 years! hands off grave robbers! richardofleicester
  • Score: -1

8:17pm Sat 9 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

My dear faithfull citizens of York...

Great to hear from you all again... been a long time... thought you had forgotten me, especially as i didn't see you at the big bash... can't remember much about it... must have been a good one though cause i've got a splitting headache!

The strangest thing happened... must have fallen asleep cause i was dreaming i was lying on a beach in the sun, and then the next thing i knew there's this blinding light and here i am back in Leicester...

And what a great place it is too...
Friendly people - almost sound Northern!
and as for the food, wow i've never had gruel like it... really spicy! great for clearing the mud out your ears...

Anyway guess what i'm trying to say is...

Thanks ever so much for the invite, but i think i'll stay here...
After all it is the "heart of England" and from here I can see all of my loyal subjects in the North, South, East & West...

But please do come and see me, be great to see you again, after all it's only down the M1 road thingy...

and the Mayor has already spent a huge amount of wonga on a new home for me...

Yours Kingly

Richard of Leicester! ;-) xx
My dear faithfull citizens of York... Great to hear from you all again... been a long time... thought you had forgotten me, especially as i didn't see you at the big bash... can't remember much about it... must have been a good one though cause i've got a splitting headache! The strangest thing happened... must have fallen asleep cause i was dreaming i was lying on a beach in the sun, and then the next thing i knew there's this blinding light and here i am back in Leicester... And what a great place it is too... Friendly people - almost sound Northern! and as for the food, wow i've never had gruel like it... really spicy! great for clearing the mud out your ears... Anyway guess what i'm trying to say is... Thanks ever so much for the invite, but i think i'll stay here... After all it is the "heart of England" and from here I can see all of my loyal subjects in the North, South, East & West... But please do come and see me, be great to see you again, after all it's only down the M1 road thingy... and the Mayor has already spent a huge amount of wonga on a new home for me... Yours Kingly Richard of Leicester! ;-) xx richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

8:27pm Sat 9 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Sorry Yorkies... couldn't resist that,

Just sick and tired of all this sniping... after all we are all English / British arn't we?

Does it really matter if he's buried here in Leicester? the important thing is he's been found and can be given a fitting permanent memorial.

I'm sure he wouldn't want us starting a civil war over him!

I Love York, it's a beautiful old city, which was lucky to have escaped large industrialisation... which the people of Leicester undertook for the sake of the nation, so have some pity and let us keep our old Dickon, after all we've quite taken to him over the years, naming many of our srteets, buildings, & places after him, and we did erect a statue of him in our castle gardens, and a permanent memorial tombstone in the heart of our cathedral... so please just let him rest in peace with your brothers and sisters of Leicester, but please do come and see him and let us show you around some of the historic sites and fine buildings that do remain... we're not that bad u know! ;-)
Sorry Yorkies... couldn't resist that, Just sick and tired of all this sniping... after all we are all English / British arn't we? Does it really matter if he's buried here in Leicester? the important thing is he's been found and can be given a fitting permanent memorial. I'm sure he wouldn't want us starting a civil war over him! I Love York, it's a beautiful old city, which was lucky to have escaped large industrialisation... which the people of Leicester undertook for the sake of the nation, so have some pity and let us keep our old Dickon, after all we've quite taken to him over the years, naming many of our srteets, buildings, & places after him, and we did erect a statue of him in our castle gardens, and a permanent memorial tombstone in the heart of our cathedral... so please just let him rest in peace with your brothers and sisters of Leicester, but please do come and see him and let us show you around some of the historic sites and fine buildings that do remain... we're not that bad u know! ;-) richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

9:13pm Sat 9 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

http://www2.le.ac.uk
/projects/greyfriars
/images/R3%20Statue%
20Leics.JPG

picture of our statue of Dickon... as u can see it's very flattering and not at all like the character in Shakespears play.

http://news.images.i
tv.com/image/file/90
657/article_79436592
ab195228_1347446558_
9j-4aaqsk.jpeg

picture of his memorial in the heart of our Cathedral...

http://ww1.hdnux.com
/photos/17/61/71/413
6560/3/628x471.jpg

another one shows the place of reverence and honour it is given

http://www.richardii
i.net/images/richard
iii_pub.jpg

A great old fashioned drinking spot to raise a glass in his memory...

http://www.thisislei
cestershire.co.uk/im
ages/localpeople/ugc
-images/275788/Artic
le/images/17193968/4
259602.jpg

You can see how close to the cathedral he was buried (spire over top of buildings) and below in the map

http://upload.wikime
dia.org/wikipedia/co
mmons/thumb/1/1f/Gre
yfriars,_Leicester_s
ite.gif/220px-Greyfr
iars,_Leicester_site
.gif

http://maps.google.c
o.uk/maps?hl=en&rlz=
1C2AFAB_enGB491GB519
&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_
pw.r_qf.&biw=1366&bi
h=667&q=king+richard
s+road+leicester&um=
1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear
=0x487760e80b825279:
0x4743dad9ada5d545,K
ing+Richards+Rd,+Lei
cester&gl=uk&sa=X&ei
=XLcWUa7tJoua0QW9q4D
gCQ&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA

The road named after him, which he rode out to do battle from Leicester and returned along the same path

http://s0.geograph.o
rg.uk/geophotos/03/1
2/01/3120193_e9b5e5d
0.jpg

The fateful Bow Bridge

http://www.leicester
.gov.uk/EasySiteWeb/
getresource.axd?Asse
tID=4317&type=full&s
ervicetype=Inline&cu
stomSizeId=0

another memorial

http://www.timescolo
nist.com/polopoly_fs
/1.66624.1360025351!
/fileImage/httpImage
/image.jpg_gen/deriv
atives/landscape_804
/university-of-leice
ster-m-8-jpg.jpg

The memorial by Bow bridge stating the previously believed spot of his resting place

http://www.kingricha
rds.leicester.sch.uk
/

Infants school

http://www.friendsre
united.co.uk/king-ri
chard-iii-secondary-
school/b/85509bc1-a8
14-42c8-80d4-c25945f
cdfc1

secondary school

I think you can see the connection and how much a part he has played in our cities history and how his name has lived on in memorial in our daily lives

So please let him rest in peace in Leicester, thanks
http://www2.le.ac.uk /projects/greyfriars /images/R3%20Statue% 20Leics.JPG picture of our statue of Dickon... as u can see it's very flattering and not at all like the character in Shakespears play. http://news.images.i tv.com/image/file/90 657/article_79436592 ab195228_1347446558_ 9j-4aaqsk.jpeg picture of his memorial in the heart of our Cathedral... http://ww1.hdnux.com /photos/17/61/71/413 6560/3/628x471.jpg another one shows the place of reverence and honour it is given http://www.richardii i.net/images/richard iii_pub.jpg A great old fashioned drinking spot to raise a glass in his memory... http://www.thisislei cestershire.co.uk/im ages/localpeople/ugc -images/275788/Artic le/images/17193968/4 259602.jpg You can see how close to the cathedral he was buried (spire over top of buildings) and below in the map http://upload.wikime dia.org/wikipedia/co mmons/thumb/1/1f/Gre yfriars,_Leicester_s ite.gif/220px-Greyfr iars,_Leicester_site .gif http://maps.google.c o.uk/maps?hl=en&rlz= 1C2AFAB_enGB491GB519 &bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_ pw.r_qf.&biw=1366&bi h=667&q=king+richard s+road+leicester&um= 1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear =0x487760e80b825279: 0x4743dad9ada5d545,K ing+Richards+Rd,+Lei cester&gl=uk&sa=X&ei =XLcWUa7tJoua0QW9q4D gCQ&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA The road named after him, which he rode out to do battle from Leicester and returned along the same path http://s0.geograph.o rg.uk/geophotos/03/1 2/01/3120193_e9b5e5d 0.jpg The fateful Bow Bridge http://www.leicester .gov.uk/EasySiteWeb/ getresource.axd?Asse tID=4317&type=full&s ervicetype=Inline&cu stomSizeId=0 another memorial http://www.timescolo nist.com/polopoly_fs /1.66624.1360025351! /fileImage/httpImage /image.jpg_gen/deriv atives/landscape_804 /university-of-leice ster-m-8-jpg.jpg The memorial by Bow bridge stating the previously believed spot of his resting place http://www.kingricha rds.leicester.sch.uk / Infants school http://www.friendsre united.co.uk/king-ri chard-iii-secondary- school/b/85509bc1-a8 14-42c8-80d4-c25945f cdfc1 secondary school I think you can see the connection and how much a part he has played in our cities history and how his name has lived on in memorial in our daily lives So please let him rest in peace in Leicester, thanks richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

11:46pm Sat 9 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Can we please stop referring to Leicester's paltry parish church as a 'cathedral'. Yes, I know it is, technically speaking, but in reality it's a small Victorian structure of very little architectural merit.
Can we please stop referring to Leicester's paltry parish church as a 'cathedral'. Yes, I know it is, technically speaking, but in reality it's a small Victorian structure of very little architectural merit. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: 0

12:56am Sun 10 Feb 13

Scarlet Pimpernel says...

Offer Leicester a two-for-one deal.

Alexander and England in exchange for Dickie III...... think of the savings to York ? !!!

Leicester could then barter with Scotland and London to see if they will have the two interlopers back !
Offer Leicester a two-for-one deal. Alexander and England in exchange for Dickie III...... think of the savings to York ? !!! Leicester could then barter with Scotland and London to see if they will have the two interlopers back ! Scarlet Pimpernel
  • Score: 0

9:45am Sun 10 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Yes our Cathedral may have been modified by the victorians, but the victorians were master builders and created some fantastic architecture & structures in their time...

don't be a such a history snob... in several hundred years all Victorian architecture will be a national treasure if it isn't already!

Leicester was denied a grand Cathedral like Yorks when our city status was removed after being sacked by the vikings and losing our Bishop... until finally being righted.

Yes ours may be modest and smaller but in this case i think you'll find that although "big is beautiful" - "Less is more!"

I haven't heard all you yorkies demanding Richard Duke of York (his father) be dug up from Westminster and transported to York Minster... After all he was also a Yorkist...

So stop moaning about what you never had and get over it!
Yes our Cathedral may have been modified by the victorians, but the victorians were master builders and created some fantastic architecture & structures in their time... don't be a such a history snob... in several hundred years all Victorian architecture will be a national treasure if it isn't already! Leicester was denied a grand Cathedral like Yorks when our city status was removed after being sacked by the vikings and losing our Bishop... until finally being righted. Yes ours may be modest and smaller but in this case i think you'll find that although "big is beautiful" - "Less is more!" I haven't heard all you yorkies demanding Richard Duke of York (his father) be dug up from Westminster and transported to York Minster... After all he was also a Yorkist... So stop moaning about what you never had and get over it! richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

9:51am Sun 10 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Sorry if that's upset anyone, but there really is a hell of a lot more to worry about in this country, like rising unemployment, huge cuts to public services & rising homelessness...

Why don't you put as much effort into helping those less fortunate than yourselves, and channel that energy into something positive... try it - you'll feel better for it...

There rant over! ;-)
Sorry if that's upset anyone, but there really is a hell of a lot more to worry about in this country, like rising unemployment, huge cuts to public services & rising homelessness... Why don't you put as much effort into helping those less fortunate than yourselves, and channel that energy into something positive... try it - you'll feel better for it... There rant over! ;-) richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

10:02am Sun 10 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Oh and another thing...

correction to my previous statement... we don't want or need your pity...

After all we have a King of England!

nah nah nah nah nah ;-)
Oh and another thing... correction to my previous statement... we don't want or need your pity... After all we have a King of England! nah nah nah nah nah ;-) richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

10:10am Sun 10 Feb 13

deckhanddave says...

richardofleicester wrote:
Oh and another thing...

correction to my previous statement... we don't want or need your pity...

After all we have a King of England!

nah nah nah nah nah ;-)
You've almost converted me. It was the nah nah nah nah nah that did it! Eloquently put.
[quote][p][bold]richardofleicester[/bold] wrote: Oh and another thing... correction to my previous statement... we don't want or need your pity... After all we have a King of England! nah nah nah nah nah ;-)[/p][/quote]You've almost converted me. It was the nah nah nah nah nah that did it! Eloquently put. deckhanddave
  • Score: 0

12:29pm Sun 10 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

Thanks

& of course your all welcome to come & visit our Dickon and guess what - our Cathedral is free entry... and our museums...

although i'm sure there'll be plenty of tourist tat popping up to rival York

;-)
Thanks & of course your all welcome to come & visit our Dickon and guess what - our Cathedral is free entry... and our museums... although i'm sure there'll be plenty of tourist tat popping up to rival York ;-) richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Sun 10 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

“My parents are from Coventry...
My grandparents were from Durham and Wiltshire...
I was born in Rugby...
Lived my childhood in Coventry...
Spent my adult life in Leicester (more than half my life)...
What does this make me?...

A Rugbonian, Coventrian, or Leicesteranian?...
Certainly not a Durhamanian or Wiltshireanian...
Maybe English / British?

My point is it doesn't matter where he's from... it's where he is that counts!

...and that's in the Heart of England watching over all his people - North, East, South & West!
“My parents are from Coventry... My grandparents were from Durham and Wiltshire... I was born in Rugby... Lived my childhood in Coventry... Spent my adult life in Leicester (more than half my life)... What does this make me?... A Rugbonian, Coventrian, or Leicesteranian?... Certainly not a Durhamanian or Wiltshireanian... Maybe English / British? My point is it doesn't matter where he's from... it's where he is that counts! ...and that's in the Heart of England watching over all his people - North, East, South & West! richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

1:37pm Sun 10 Feb 13

Yorkie-Clifton says...

richardofleicester--
- Your getting boring now . You do not have an argument but are trying to create one . Very sad .
richardofleicester-- - Your getting boring now . You do not have an argument but are trying to create one . Very sad . Yorkie-Clifton
  • Score: 0

4:01pm Sun 10 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

richardofleicester wrote:
Thanks

& of course your all welcome to come & visit our Dickon and guess what - our Cathedral is free entry... and our museums...

although i'm sure there'll be plenty of tourist tat popping up to rival York

;-)
With all due respect, the only reason Leicester 'cathedral' is 'free entry' is because there's sod all there to see. I wonder if it will remain 'free' once Yorkshire's king is buried there.
[quote][p][bold]richardofleicester[/bold] wrote: Thanks & of course your all welcome to come & visit our Dickon and guess what - our Cathedral is free entry... and our museums... although i'm sure there'll be plenty of tourist tat popping up to rival York ;-)[/p][/quote]With all due respect, the only reason Leicester 'cathedral' is 'free entry' is because there's sod all there to see. I wonder if it will remain 'free' once Yorkshire's king is buried there. wolfpaw1972
  • Score: 0

8:57am Mon 11 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Leicester Cathedral is free to enter, because you shouldn't charge a fee to enter a religious building...
Leicester Cathedral is free to enter, because you shouldn't charge a fee to enter a religious building... Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 0

11:22pm Mon 11 Feb 13

wolfpaw1972 says...

Old_Town_Leicester wrote:
Leicester Cathedral is free to enter, because you shouldn't charge a fee to enter a religious building...
Oh please. As I said, what does Leicester 'cathedral' have to offer that would demand payment for entry?
[quote][p][bold]Old_Town_Leicester[/bold] wrote: Leicester Cathedral is free to enter, because you shouldn't charge a fee to enter a religious building...[/p][/quote]Oh please. As I said, what does Leicester 'cathedral' have to offer that would demand payment for entry? wolfpaw1972
  • Score: 0

9:11am Tue 12 Feb 13

Old_Town_Leicester says...

Well I guess in answer to your question, Leicester Cathedral will be able to offer the tomb of Richard III. I really do hope that no charge is made for this. Westminster Cathedral is free to enter. Is that a lesser monument than York Minster?

Leicester has a long history of not charging a fee to enter its museums. There is plenty of interest at Jewry Wall, Newarke Houses, New Walk etc...but no fee is charged. The Council supports their upkeep.
Well I guess in answer to your question, Leicester Cathedral will be able to offer the tomb of Richard III. I really do hope that no charge is made for this. Westminster Cathedral is free to enter. Is that a lesser monument than York Minster? Leicester has a long history of not charging a fee to enter its museums. There is plenty of interest at Jewry Wall, Newarke Houses, New Walk etc...but no fee is charged. The Council supports their upkeep. Old_Town_Leicester
  • Score: 0

4:32pm Tue 12 Feb 13

richardofleicester says...

well put Old Town

Actually i'm getting bored with all this, and anyway it's a non argument - He's staying in Leicester so get over it York...
well put Old Town Actually i'm getting bored with all this, and anyway it's a non argument - He's staying in Leicester so get over it York... richardofleicester
  • Score: 0

9:15pm Tue 12 Feb 13

RoseD says...

He usurped the throne: keep him!
He usurped the throne: keep him! RoseD
  • Score: 0

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