Route of new HS2 high-speed rail network unveiled (From York Press)

Paul Meoff says...
7:47am Mon 28 Jan 13

What is the prize to the poster who finds the most to moan about regarding this announcement.

Let the whining begin.

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pedalling paul says...
7:54am Mon 28 Jan 13

Whine whine......

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NoNewsIsGoodNews says...
7:59am Mon 28 Jan 13

Paul Meoff wrote:
What is the prize to the poster who finds the most to moan about regarding this announcement.

Let the whining begin.

Looks like you already started by moaning about people that have not even moaned.

Oh hang on, I have just moaned about you moaning, about people who haven't moaned.

Do I win?

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Madasanibbotson says...
8:04am Mon 28 Jan 13

I am confused by the headline. If the new line goes to Leeds not York then surely every station in the UK will be linked into it ?
Will York to Leeds be as it is now and then a high speed line ?
As expected JA is claiming the credit for improvements to the East Coast Line, but the line will be London,Birmingham, Manchester to Leeds, maybe my Geography is rusty but we go from York to London down the East Coast, and that doesn't include Manchester and Birmingham.
Perhaps JA can clarify this badly written "Headline"

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MrsHoney says...
8:07am Mon 28 Jan 13

Well I'm going to have a moan!! I don't see the point of this network. I really don't believe there is anyone that is so important that getting to their destination half an hour sooner is critical. We already have a rail network, why destroy more of the countryside, force people out of their homes and make others lives miserable from living next to it, just for the sake of getting their a bit faster.

Bloody ridiculous, use the money to improve the current rail network!

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YorkieTalkie says...
8:29am Mon 28 Jan 13

HS2 will be a step towards a more efficient rail network, but it's expensive and will take the best part of twenty years to complete.

I can't help but think splitting the investment to encourage companies to move out of the highly congested south-east and entice them to our area would help boost the local and national economy much faster...

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gmc_1963 says...
8:42am Mon 28 Jan 13

So...
1:46 Leeds to London HS2
1:50 York to London now

It better be no more than 4 mins to Leeds by HS2 or I won't bother

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BL2 says...
9:04am Mon 28 Jan 13

Moan Moan and Double Moan ... do I win a pencil?

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AngryandFrustrated says...
9:28am Mon 28 Jan 13

I am confused altho' that doesn't take much on a Monday morning! Every press release and news report I've heard this morning says nothing about the high speed line being extended to York - extended to Leeds, yes, but York, no. The line that will go to Leeds will not even go to the existing station, but a new one that is to be built "about 5 minutes" away from the existing one. If they are to put in a new high speed line from this new station to York, it would appear that half of Leeds city centre will have to be demolished to accomodate it! It will be interesting to see how they think they will be able to shoe-horn it into York, (unless of course there is also to be a wholesale demolition of York city centre) if indeed a high speed line is planned for York.

Currently, you can do York-Kings Cross in 1hr 50mins on the limited stop service. Call me thick, but how can you shave half an hour off that by going via Leeds on a service they seemingly haven't annouced is planned?

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voiceofnormalpeople says...
9:40am Mon 28 Jan 13

20 years to complete!!!! by the time that is done every other country will be using hover trains that cost nothing to run, quite and fast. all this money, all this time and still it just takes a little time off. if it was to halve times i could understand. if it was to start now or in the next year i could understand. even if it took just 10 years. but this seems like yet another second rate engineering ask yet again. 20 years tshh

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Peasoupage says...
9:45am Mon 28 Jan 13

https://www.gov.uk/h
s2-phase-two-initial
-preferred-route-pla
n-and-profile-maps#r
oute-map-west-midlan
ds-to-leeds

Route section HSL17 Cold Hiendley to Church Fenton
https://www.gov.uk/g
overnment/uploads/sy
stem/uploads/attachm
ent_data/file/69025/
hs2-arp-lr0-dr-rt-55
170_3-0.pdf

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Alpha Kenny Thing says...
9:57am Mon 28 Jan 13

The Chinese will have 11,000 mile of high speed track by 2015.
We will have a few hundred by 2030.
What a waste.

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pedalling paul says...
9:58am Mon 28 Jan 13

Hang on a mo...I seem to be the only whiner. Everyone else is moaning!!

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anti-rant says...
10:16am Mon 28 Jan 13

MrsHoney wrote:
Well I'm going to have a moan!! I don't see the point of this network. I really don't believe there is anyone that is so important that getting to their destination half an hour sooner is critical. We already have a rail network, why destroy more of the countryside, force people out of their homes and make others lives miserable from living next to it, just for the sake of getting their a bit faster.

Bloody ridiculous, use the money to improve the current rail network!

That is exactly what they are doing, you dodo - improving the network. Get a bus and get outta here.

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ReginaldBiscuit says...
10:24am Mon 28 Jan 13

Any large scale project like this is to be welcomed as it creates jobs and wealth.

Fraulein Kersten England should tweet better time sums though. 83 minutes on a non-high speed line from London - No, non, nein, niet, nada.

Actually, looking at the range of tweets kicking about on twitter this morning, she wouldn't appear to be alone. Self-styled 'leaders' of business and LA's are talking much potty-mouth today.

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oi oi savaloy says...
10:26am Mon 28 Jan 13

So ... Question, I work in the rail industry , what jobs will it bring to York?

Oh I get it... The 45 McJobs will be on the station ???

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robynd says...
10:46am Mon 28 Jan 13

If people bothered to look at the plans, you'll see the main East Coast Line will have a link to the HS2 at Ulleskelf.

So I'm guessing there will be HS2 trains from London to York. Whether this makes much of a difference in journey times is another matter.

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amike says...
10:47am Mon 28 Jan 13

As Angry and Frustrated says at the end of the day the effect on the journey time from York to London will be minimal once you allow for the fact that the service will stop on several occasions (each one adding at least five minutes to the times suggested), the time taken to change stations in Leeds and slow connection from York to Leeds.

Probably the only good point will be that this service might take some of the congestion off the East Coast Mainline which, in turn, might improve services.

Also no one seems to have mentioned what the cost of this service might be. Sadly it could become the preserve of Businesses and those for whom the cost of travel is not a problem.

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MrsHoney says...
11:08am Mon 28 Jan 13

anti-rant wrote:

MrsHoney wrote:
Well I'm going to have a moan!! I don't see the point of this network. I really don't believe there is anyone that is so important that getting to their destination half an hour sooner is critical. We already have a rail network, why destroy more of the countryside, force people out of their homes and make others lives miserable from living next to it, just for the sake of getting their a bit faster.

Bloody ridiculous, use the money to improve the current rail network!
That is exactly what they are doing, you dodo - improving the network. Get a bus and get outta here.

No they are ADDING to the network, not improving the CURRENT network. Which is what I said in my post.

You dodo!!!

It may be a good thing for a few people who think they're so busy and important that it's essential they get to London half an hour quicker. But I don't think the people that live along the route will be very happy about it.

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NoNewsIsGoodNews says...
11:11am Mon 28 Jan 13

Also no one seems to have mentioned what the cost of this service might be. Sadly it could become the preserve of Businesses and those for whom the cost of travel is not a problem.

I have just done a quick check on the train line web site, and if I wanted to take Mrs NoNews and the two ankle biters to London today, with a return this evening, it is going to cost me £582.
I could fly to Australia for that kind of money.

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anti-rant says...
11:16am Mon 28 Jan 13

MrsHoney wrote:

anti-rant wrote:

MrsHoney wrote:
Well I'm going to have a moan!! I don't see the point of this network. I really don't believe there is anyone that is so important that getting to their destination half an hour sooner is critical. We already have a rail network, why destroy more of the countryside, force people out of their homes and make others lives miserable from living next to it, just for the sake of getting their a bit faster.

Bloody ridiculous, use the money to improve the current rail network!
That is exactly what they are doing, you dodo - improving the network. Get a bus and get outta here.
No they are ADDING to the network, not improving the CURRENT network. Which is what I said in my post.

You dodo!!!

It may be a good thing for a few people who think they're so busy and important that it's essential they get to London half an hour quicker. But I don't think the people that live along the route will be very happy about it.

Can't really disagree with a fellow dodo, but quite a few people actually commute to London, and like it or not, most of my clients are in London and (unfortunately) I have to travel there frequently - an hour saved is an hour doing something better, like sitting in the pub and moaning about other dodos.

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Capt. Dobie says...
11:23am Mon 28 Jan 13

China, Germany, France and Japan already have faster trains than this. So all the dosh will be for an obsolete train before it carries it's first passenger.

I do think the rail network needs significant modernisation, but this bespoke line for the sake of 30 saved minutes does seem extreme, and perhaps not the best solution? 15 yrs is a long way off, and we could well be lumbered with an expensive white-elephant.

Heard on BBC R York that Church Fenton are cmpaigning against it already...

Also, just how much will the tickets be for this? The cheapest return to London is already a costly purchase for many; this could well develop into a 2-tier 'public' transport system...

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Carpet03 says...
11:47am Mon 28 Jan 13

The rhetoric about rebalancing the regions is good. It's mad that we're using aeroplanes for domestic travel, given Britain's geography and our carbon emissions. Big infrastructure investment is always going to upset some people, and it's always going to seem slow from conception to execution.

But... this feels like a lot of money for a technology that is basically from the nineteenth century. I worry that we're playing catch-up rather than innovating, which is what we used to do. The US-based inventor/entrepreneu
r/tech-visionary Elon Musk is promising to unveil his ideas for a 'hyperloop' system soon: ground-based travel three to four times faster than bullet trains, at approx. a tenth of the cost in track/infrastructure
. It sounds fantastical but his record (Tesla Motors, SpaceX -- and PayPal, for that matter) is impressive. If there's even a chance this could become viable in the next thirty years, shouldn't we look more closely into this before we break ground on HS2? Unlike most of Europe, we haven't already invested in bullet-train technology; so we'd be the perfect place (along with California) to pioneer something really game-changing in mass transportation.

I wonder, though, if the construction companies that will be salivating over these giant contracts would be interested in a system that would cost a fraction of the money to build?

Full disclosure: Elon Musk also thinks that he's going to retire on Mars.

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myselby says...
11:57am Mon 28 Jan 13

Just a thought, as a simple northerner, if I want to get to London in time for a meeting – well just catch a earlier train – simples

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greenmonkey says...
11:59am Mon 28 Jan 13

If the agenda was really to benefit the North the plan would be to start work from this end, not London! Birmingham is likely to benefit more than Leeds or Manchester. Investing the money in replacing the rolling stock, more carriages and removing capacity bottlenecks on the existing network, rather than current plan to bump up rail fares to pay for any such work would be far sounder plan. But then the minister would miss out on a shiney legacy in 20 years time!

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Capt. Dobie says...
12:01pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Carpet03- THAT is exactly what I'm talking about!

Trains are great, even if the idea is ~200yrs old, but we need an innovation.

Domestic airflight for the UK is just bonkers; hence BMI baby pulled out of DTVA.

Like Beeching swung the scythe, this seems to me to be the polar opposite. Heinously large invesment in a railway limited to a few cities.

Surely this level of investment should be spread nationally if the 'rustication' of jobs doesn't go ahead as planned...

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Carpet03 says...
12:17pm Mon 28 Jan 13

@Capt. Dobie
It's a grand irony that, having led the world in introducing railways two hundred years ago, we would be virtually the last major industrialized country to introduce high-speed rail -- around seventy years after the Japanese pioneered virtually the same system. (You can go and see one in the NRM, and ask yourself what we've been doing for sixty years!)

I know we have a capacity problem on UK trains, but it's not a smart idea to solve that with a huge investment in 1960s technology. At least, not if we have any ambitions to lead the world in tech, rather than to lag behind everyone else, and to pioneer inventions that might help to close our export gap.

One consolation: given their attitude to patent protection and their central planning system, I'd expect the Chinese to prove the viability (or otherwise) of the hyperloop long before we finish HS2!

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unearthlychild says...
12:26pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Where on Earth are all these wild claims of journey times coming from??

Those of you stupid enough to think it's going to take the same amount of time as now to get to London should go take a look at the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/g
overnment/uploads/sy
stem/uploads/attachm
ent_data/file/69738/
hs2-phase-two-comman
d-paper.pdf

In this it clearly states that the projected journey time to Leeds is 1:22 and to York is 1:23. That will already allow for stops at intermediate destinations so you don't need to go adding in an extra 5 minutes for each of the calls en-route. Similarly, not every train will stop at every station: the network will be capable of handling up to 16 trains per hour so there's more than enough scope for some to stop everywhere and others not.

In this it also clearly shows in all the maps released by the DfT (and there are several examples!) that Leeds and York are served by *separate* arms of the HS2 network. If you want to go from London to Leeds you'll board a London to Leeds train - as now; if you want to go to York you'll board a London to York/Newcastle/Edinb
urgh train - as now. If you want to go from Leeds to York you'll use the same service along the same route - as now. Investment in that "conventional" route has already been announced which will see more frequent and quicker journey times within the next 5 years as the route becomes electrified and see new, speedier trains brought in.

Yes, the fastest journey time between York and London is currently 1h50 but that's by knocking out all intermediate stops, hardly convenient for those wishing to travel to say Doncaster, Peterborough or beyond. Once HS2 is open, most trains from York to London via the ECML will include more intermediate stops with most of those heading for London transferring to the new, much faster route where trains will *regularly* take less that 90 minutes as opposed to the *occasional* 110 minutes currently available. If you want to go cross-country to say Sheffield or Birmingham those journey times will also be significantly reduced.

HS2 is vital to the future of the rail network in this country; without it the whole thing will be at full capacity within two decades will full-and-standing trains the norm throughout the day.

Perhaps those of you that doubt this could start by getting your facts straight before making wild claims about how pointless the whole thing is!

Where on Earth are all these wild claims of journey times coming from?? Those of you stupid enough to think it's going to take the same amount of time as now to get to London should go take a look at the link below: https://www.gov.uk/g overnment/uploads/sy stem/uploads/attachm ent_data/file/69738/ hs2-phase-two-comman d-paper.pdf In this it clearly states that the projected journey time to Leeds is 1:22 and to York is 1:23. That will already allow for stops at intermediate destinations so you don't need to go adding in an extra 5 minutes for each of the calls en-route. Similarly, not every train will stop at every station: the network will be capable of handling up to 16 trains per hour so there's more than enough scope for some to stop everywhere and others not. In this it also clearly shows in all the maps released by the DfT (and there are several examples!) that Leeds and York are served by *separate* arms of the HS2 network. If you want to go from London to Leeds you'll board a London to Leeds train - as now; if you want to go to York you'll board a London to York/Newcastle/Edinb urgh train - as now. If you want to go from Leeds to York you'll use the same service along the same route - as now. Investment in that "conventional" route has already been announced which will see more frequent and quicker journey times within the next 5 years as the route becomes electrified and see new, speedier trains brought in. Yes, the fastest journey time between York and London is currently 1h50 but that's by knocking out all intermediate stops, hardly convenient for those wishing to travel to say Doncaster, Peterborough or beyond. Once HS2 is open, most trains from York to London via the ECML will include more intermediate stops with most of those heading for London transferring to the new, much faster route where trains will *regularly* take less that 90 minutes as opposed to the *occasional* 110 minutes currently available. If you want to go cross-country to say Sheffield or Birmingham those journey times will also be significantly reduced. HS2 is vital to the future of the rail network in this country; without it the whole thing will be at full capacity within two decades will full-and-standing trains the norm throughout the day. Perhaps those of you that doubt this could start by getting your facts straight before making wild claims about how pointless the whole thing is! unearthlychild

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unearthlychild says...
12:28pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Correction: the HS2 network will be able to handle up to 18 trains per hour. Even those of us in favour of it can get our facts wrong - but at least mine was a right-side inaccuracy!

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nick clogg says...
12:32pm Mon 28 Jan 13

oi oi savaloy wrote:
So ... Question, I work in the rail industry , what jobs will it bring to York?

Oh I get it... The 45 McJobs will be on the station ???

Burger King and KFC in line for a new store>

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fixedfanatic says...
12:39pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Is this not just natural progression? surely we have to improve rail networks, had our forefathers not done the same we would all be travelling to the capital on horseback.

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Stevie D says...
12:40pm Mon 28 Jan 13

To those questioning what happens with the line stopping short of York ... this is common in France with the TGV. High speed tracks run most of the way but then in some cases trains use the 'old' normal lines for the last bit. So it's still a through service using the new high speed trains, but without the need to replace/duplicate the line into York itself.

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sparkseffect says...
12:45pm Mon 28 Jan 13

As usual, everybody is concentrating on how long the journey time will be. HS2 is much more than that - the West Coast Main Line is almost full to capacity and HS2 will create more space there for both local and freight trains (more freight from ports onto rail means fewer lorries on the motorways). Those who argue that more can be put on the WCML have forgotten the chaos of the recent rebuilding programme. There is also the little-mentioned benefit of using the route for other communications such as a high speed broadband network (to be laid in ducting alongside the railway line) - and that will even benefit the Nimbys in the Chilterns. There is no reason why the high speed trains should not use HS2 to Ulleskelf, then continue at normal speeds on the existing route to York and beyond. That's what happens in France, and don't forget that GNER used to use Eurostar trains between Kings Cross and York. On the time side, although the journey time from London won't be that much better (1hour 45min from London to York was not uncommon 15 years ago, before somebody thought that compensation for late running would be a good idea), the journey time from Birmingham and the East Midlands to York will be much faster than it has been in the past.

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nomadic85 says...
12:46pm Mon 28 Jan 13

well said unearthly child. this is great investment in the infrastructure and economy for this country. some poeple will moan about bloody everything, without really doing anything about it

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nick clogg says...
12:49pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Stevie D wrote:
To those questioning what happens with the line stopping short of York ... this is common in France with the TGV. High speed tracks run most of the way but then in some cases trains use the 'old' normal lines for the last bit. So it's still a through service using the new high speed trains, but without the need to replace/duplicate the line into York itself.

By the time this is actually built after delays, strikes, 30000 times over budget we'll all be dead

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oi oi savaloy says...
12:51pm Mon 28 Jan 13

nick clogg wrote:

oi oi savaloy wrote: So ... Question, I work in the rail industry , what jobs will it bring to York? Oh I get it... The 45 McJobs will be on the station ???
Burger King and KFC in line for a new store>

Also maybe now there will be a Starbucks on the station providing 12 jobs??

On a more serious note the manufacture of the hs2 trains was gift wrapped to agility trains in 2009 by labour, and Huge bayley did nothing to get the trains (which will be built abroad) fitted out in York!

I am actually interested to know what the great buda and baily have actually done other than write a letter and pose for the camera ??

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MarkyMarkMark says...
12:52pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Great idea.
More trains means less people on each one (maybe!) and/or more space for freight on the existing lines.

But is someone going to do something aboutthe unearthly high prices of rail fares to encourage people to use them in preference to using their cars?

And will there still be a problem with the signalling at Doncaster (which seems to be the cause of most of the compensation the train company have paid me in the last few years)? Oh no- there will probably also be problems with the signalling at Leeds instead!

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far2bizzy says...
12:56pm Mon 28 Jan 13

I can’t help wondering – in 30 year’s time, all these people who need to dash off to London for meetings, won’t they have abandoned travel altogether and be using some form of super-Skype?

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Wilyorkuk1983 says...
1:19pm Mon 28 Jan 13

far2bizzy - Priceless, a form of super-Skype.......I will tell the board of the multi-national engineering firm I work for about this.........oh wait we already have this on every computer it is called video conferencing.

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old_geezer says...
1:53pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Time saving is only part of the benefit. The West and East Coast Main Lines are nearing capacity, but could offer better stopping passenger services and increased freight capacity when freed from trying to be high speed lines as well.

Also, HS2 may terminate at Leeds, Crewe or wherever, but the trains running on it will continue, having run faster for the first leg of their journey to the Northwest or Scotland.

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The all seeing eye says...
2:01pm Mon 28 Jan 13

People struggle to afford the current service. Can't wait to see how much a ticket is. Communications technology is evolving at such a rapid rate that by the time this is completed commuting for business will probably be a thing of the past. Another white elephant courtesy of a government who doesn't have a clue.

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Batman4ever says...
2:11pm Mon 28 Jan 13

I lived near Reading for ten years and commutted into the City everyday. If I went by the superfast 125 train it took 20 minutes- not bad. BUT it took me 30 mins by car to get to the Station Car Park- 15 mins to get the platform and 30 mins after arriving at Paddington to get to the office. To get home in the evening add another 30 mins as half of Bershire was trying to get out of the Car Park. If I picked the right time to leave home when I took the car, parked in inner London and took the tube to my office. Max time each way 1 hour 30 mins door to door.
I now live near in Preston, travel by Virgin to Euston in 2 hours 8 mins, enjoy good breakfast and lunch or dinner on the way back. Same problem getting to the mainline station and home which is about two miles and takes half an hour each way. I hear everyone say "Use the Bus" however the Bus Station is across town and our inclement weather does'nt always allow for a walk in decent clothes. The problem the Government doesn't understand that we need an upgraded local transport system to get us to the mainline quicker then the 1, 1 hour 43 mins or 2 hours into London is acceptable. The Government also seems to have forgotten that most industries have moved out of the cities so its still necessary to drive from the mainline to the our destinations. I thought the intention of a superb transport system is to get cars off the road!!!! For me I'll settle for a good CB, leather seating, air condition and watch the trains fly past!

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Guy Fawkes says...
2:16pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Also no one seems to have mentioned what the cost of this service might be. Sadly it could become the preserve of Businesses and those for whom the cost of travel is not a problem.

+1. The existing West Coast Main Line is running three-quarters-empty trains most of the time, because the cost of using it has driven (literally!) most of its potential customer base onto the roads. Only just before Christmas it was reported in this paper that local business leaders had complained that the COST of York-London business travel, not the journey time, was damaging the city's economy.

And all you trainspotter fanboys out there, please don't respond with a sanctimonious lecture about how if I booked six months in advance and travelled at 5am on a Saturday morning I could go there for £20. People who have the sort of commitments that anyone apart from the unemployed and retired are likely to have simply can't do that - hence the reason these tickets are so cheap.

Later this week I have to make a business trip to Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire. The cheapest train ticket that meets my travel requirements costs £172.50 (I do not know when my meeting will finish, and therefore a cheap ticket that ties me to a specific train on the return journey is no good for me), according to the National Railways website. The journey takes around 3.5 hours. Alternatively, I can spend about £60 on petrol for the return trip and drive there in about the same time.

Let's assume for argument's sake that using HS2 will double the ticket price (which is about the cost of HS1 compared to slower trains in Kent) and take about an hour off the journey time each way. Those two saved hours are not worth £80 each of my time (I earn about half that per hour, and so it is cheaper for my employer to pay me my usual salary while I'm getting there more slowly), nor of anybody's except about the top 2% of the earning population.

In other words, the government is proposing to pour £30bn into a piece of infrastructure that only top public sector managers and senior executives in multinationals will be able to afford to use.

[quote]Also no one seems to have mentioned what the cost of this service might be. Sadly it could become the preserve of Businesses and those for whom the cost of travel is not a problem.[/quote] +1. The existing West Coast Main Line is running three-quarters-empty trains most of the time, because the cost of using it has driven (literally!) most of its potential customer base onto the roads. Only just before Christmas it was reported in this paper that local business leaders had complained that the COST of York-London business travel, not the journey time, was damaging the city's economy. And all you trainspotter fanboys out there, please don't respond with a sanctimonious lecture about how if I booked six months in advance and travelled at 5am on a Saturday morning I could go there for £20. People who have the sort of commitments that anyone apart from the unemployed and retired are likely to have simply can't do that - hence the reason these tickets are so cheap. Later this week I have to make a business trip to Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire. The cheapest train ticket that meets my travel requirements costs £172.50 (I do not know when my meeting will finish, and therefore a cheap ticket that ties me to a specific train on the return journey is no good for me), according to the National Railways website. The journey takes around 3.5 hours. Alternatively, I can spend about £60 on petrol for the return trip and drive there in about the same time. Let's assume for argument's sake that using HS2 will double the ticket price (which is about the cost of HS1 compared to slower trains in Kent) and take about an hour off the journey time each way. Those two saved hours are not worth £80 each of my time (I earn about half that per hour, and so it is cheaper for my employer to pay me my usual salary while I'm getting there more slowly), nor of anybody's except about the top 2% of the earning population. In other words, the government is proposing to pour £30bn into a piece of infrastructure that only top public sector managers and senior executives in multinationals will be able to afford to use. Guy Fawkes

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Scarlet Pimpernel says...
2:32pm Mon 28 Jan 13

HS2 announcement - great photo opportunity for Bayley and Alexander - trying to take credit for something the Con-Dem coalition government are responsible for.

York's own Controller has even changed his Twitter profile photo to one of him stood beside a choo-choo train. Awh bless him, hope he gets a one-way ticket to London soon.

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Scarlet Pimpernel says...
2:37pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Pros and Cons of HS2:-

On the plus side:-
Coun Alexander gets to London, and away from York even more quickly :-)

On the downside:-
He gets back to York more quickly too :-(

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TheTruthHurts says...
2:40pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Wilyorkuk1983 wrote:
far2bizzy - Priceless, a form of super-Skype.......I will tell the board of the multi-national engineering firm I work for about this.........oh wait we already have this on every computer it is called video conferencing.

As long as you are not head of innovation at your multi-national engineering firm they are probably safe.

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ReginaldBiscuit says...
2:59pm Mon 28 Jan 13

unearthlychild wrote:
Where on Earth are all these wild claims of journey times coming from??

Those of you stupid enough to think it's going to take the same amount of time as now to get to London should go take a look at the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/g

overnment/uploads/sy

stem/uploads/attachm

ent_data/file/69738/

hs2-phase-two-comman

d-paper.pdf

In this it clearly states that the projected journey time to Leeds is 1:22 and to York is 1:23. That will already allow for stops at intermediate destinations so you don't need to go adding in an extra 5 minutes for each of the calls en-route. Similarly, not every train will stop at every station: the network will be capable of handling up to 16 trains per hour so there's more than enough scope for some to stop everywhere and others not.

In this it also clearly shows in all the maps released by the DfT (and there are several examples!) that Leeds and York are served by *separate* arms of the HS2 network. If you want to go from London to Leeds you'll board a London to Leeds train - as now; if you want to go to York you'll board a London to York/Newcastle/Edinb

urgh train - as now. If you want to go from Leeds to York you'll use the same service along the same route - as now. Investment in that "conventional" route has already been announced which will see more frequent and quicker journey times within the next 5 years as the route becomes electrified and see new, speedier trains brought in.

Yes, the fastest journey time between York and London is currently 1h50 but that's by knocking out all intermediate stops, hardly convenient for those wishing to travel to say Doncaster, Peterborough or beyond. Once HS2 is open, most trains from York to London via the ECML will include more intermediate stops with most of those heading for London transferring to the new, much faster route where trains will *regularly* take less that 90 minutes as opposed to the *occasional* 110 minutes currently available. If you want to go cross-country to say Sheffield or Birmingham those journey times will also be significantly reduced.

HS2 is vital to the future of the rail network in this country; without it the whole thing will be at full capacity within two decades will full-and-standing trains the norm throughout the day.

Perhaps those of you that doubt this could start by getting your facts straight before making wild claims about how pointless the whole thing is!

I agree with what you are saying but 83 minutes is just as you say, projected and it is a highly debatable ball-park figure. Nothing is really predictable but chaos does indeed form patterns if it is constructed from an initial set of conditions. No one knows until it's all built anyhow. By that time, there may be new technology available to make the process even faster.

I think what's irking most people is the number of self-aggrandisers and pious individualists who have gone public trying to claim some sort of 'involvement credit' linked with H2's announcement. If you throw in the additional sound-bytes that are vomited and excreted by local upper echelon public-servant and carnie types, you can understand why folks get a bit sceptical.

[quote][p][bold]unearthlychild[/bold] wrote: Where on Earth are all these wild claims of journey times coming from?? Those of you stupid enough to think it's going to take the same amount of time as now to get to London should go take a look at the link below: https://www.gov.uk/g overnment/uploads/sy stem/uploads/attachm ent_data/file/69738/ hs2-phase-two-comman d-paper.pdf In this it clearly states that the projected journey time to Leeds is 1:22 and to York is 1:23. That will already allow for stops at intermediate destinations so you don't need to go adding in an extra 5 minutes for each of the calls en-route. Similarly, not every train will stop at every station: the network will be capable of handling up to 16 trains per hour so there's more than enough scope for some to stop everywhere and others not. In this it also clearly shows in all the maps released by the DfT (and there are several examples!) that Leeds and York are served by *separate* arms of the HS2 network. If you want to go from London to Leeds you'll board a London to Leeds train - as now; if you want to go to York you'll board a London to York/Newcastle/Edinb urgh train - as now. If you want to go from Leeds to York you'll use the same service along the same route - as now. Investment in that "conventional" route has already been announced which will see more frequent and quicker journey times within the next 5 years as the route becomes electrified and see new, speedier trains brought in. Yes, the fastest journey time between York and London is currently 1h50 but that's by knocking out all intermediate stops, hardly convenient for those wishing to travel to say Doncaster, Peterborough or beyond. Once HS2 is open, most trains from York to London via the ECML will include more intermediate stops with most of those heading for London transferring to the new, much faster route where trains will *regularly* take less that 90 minutes as opposed to the *occasional* 110 minutes currently available. If you want to go cross-country to say Sheffield or Birmingham those journey times will also be significantly reduced. HS2 is vital to the future of the rail network in this country; without it the whole thing will be at full capacity within two decades will full-and-standing trains the norm throughout the day. Perhaps those of you that doubt this could start by getting your facts straight before making wild claims about how pointless the whole thing is![/p][/quote]I agree with what you are saying but 83 minutes is just as you say, projected and it is a highly debatable ball-park figure. Nothing is really predictable but chaos does indeed form patterns if it is constructed from an initial set of conditions. No one knows until it's all built anyhow. By that time, there may be new technology available to make the process even faster. I think what's irking most people is the number of self-aggrandisers and pious individualists who have gone public trying to claim some sort of 'involvement credit' linked with H2's announcement. If you throw in the additional sound-bytes that are vomited and excreted by local upper echelon public-servant and carnie types, you can understand why folks get a bit sceptical. ReginaldBiscuit

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redbluelion says...
3:44pm Mon 28 Jan 13

ITS GOING TO MESS UP THE BEAUTIFUL COUNTRYSIDE OF YORKSHIRE..AND PLACES LIKE YORK WILL LOSE TOURISTS STAYING IN THE CITY,BY STAYING IN THE CAPITAL INSTEAD..MOAN OVER.

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south bronx red 2 says...
4:16pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
Pros and Cons of HS2:-

On the plus side:-
Coun Alexander gets to London, and away from York even more quickly :-)

On the downside:-
He gets back to York more quickly too :-(

With a but of luck you'll be able to whinge and moan when those southerners moving north wont pay the false price of your shanty town build houses.

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taffywilliams says...
4:17pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Complete and utter waste of £123billion and no doubt it will cost more! Put the money to much better use!

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Garrowby Turnoff says...
4:19pm Mon 28 Jan 13

redbluelion wrote:
ITS GOING TO MESS UP THE BEAUTIFUL COUNTRYSIDE OF YORKSHIRE..AND PLACES LIKE YORK WILL LOSE TOURISTS STAYING IN THE CITY,BY STAYING IN THE CAPITAL INSTEAD..MOAN OVER.

Does HS2 mean that Michael Portillo's TV program "Great British Railway Journeys" will only last 15 minutes instead of half an hour?

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Madasanibbotson says...
5:02pm Mon 28 Jan 13

The JA defenders are quiet. I thought they would all be drinking council tax paid Champagne at the launch. But it was a Conservative/Lib Dem decision so they wouldn't have been invited.
JA please only take the credit for things you have achieved. That would save the YP a lot of paper and help the planet.

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NoNewsIsGoodNews says...
5:08pm Mon 28 Jan 13

redbluelion wrote:
ITS GOING TO MESS UP THE BEAUTIFUL COUNTRYSIDE OF YORKSHIRE..AND PLACES LIKE YORK WILL LOSE TOURISTS STAYING IN THE CITY,BY STAYING IN THE CAPITAL INSTEAD..MOAN OVER.

I agree with this comment.
It must be true because he/she is shouting so loud about it.

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johnwill says...
5:53pm Mon 28 Jan 13

It absolutely doesn't matter how long the journey between York and London takes, business is Global many York companies are dealing with the far east, the States,South America. London in terms of generating business is becoming irrelevant, in fact many companies are moving out of the capital, Network Rail being one of them.

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nearlyman says...
6:27pm Mon 28 Jan 13

NoNewsIsGoodNews wrote:

Also no one seems to have mentioned what the cost of this service might be. Sadly it could become the preserve of Businesses and those for whom the cost of travel is not a problem.

I have just done a quick check on the train line web site, and if I wanted to take Mrs NoNews and the two ankle biters to London today, with a return this evening, it is going to cost me £582.
I could fly to Australia for that kind of money.

....And in 20 years time, in orbit, the journey time will be about the same !!

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redbluelion says...
6:46pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Total wast of money..surely the money would be better spent on creating jobs now not in ten years time..the country well the north anyway is on its knees with people finding it hard to put food on the table..and keep a roof over there heads..feeking tory posh boy forcing this on us..i want a feeking job now..

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oi oi savaloy says...
7:15pm Mon 28 Jan 13

By the time it's all finished it'll be time to dig it all up again as we are 20/30 years behind everybody else and we will beaming down to London by then! Beam me up Scotty

Still waiting for bailey and Alexander to tell us exactly what they did????

And is it really possible to get from York to Leeds in a minute??

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RoseD says...
7:27pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Take the 30 BILLION pounds (that's a lot, surely?) and
1. Buy down the overpriced portion of houses so younger ppl can get on prop, ladder
2. add train service to the north AFTER 10 pm to help eliminate the N-S apartheid
3. Increase subsidy to train tickets

Leave the countryside alone. It's England's wealth.

BY the way dwon in Hampshire the councils are raising taxes on empty and 2nd properties, such as the locals refused to do here. JA & Co are so dang good at turning down grants (Grants! not a loan) and refusing to investigate increased revenues from those best able to pay it. Sorry. Just an aside.

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jumbojet says...
7:55pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Not one of you in the previous comments have, obviously, got any property within a few yards of this 'new' line,if you had then you may have a different opinion. The total mess that the persons/properties/b
eautiful countryside, will be subject too, for the benefit of half an hour from York to London. What a total nonsense, I cannot believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence can be for this scheme, a political scheme, another Cameron bandwagon. We have 'video conferencing' now, we do not need to travel to London, we have meetings in York, and if we do travel down then 2 hours is perfect, breakfast and answer the e-mails, spot-on, but **** expensive, all deductable from total company profit. Re. full capacity, just go to York station after 0900 and have a look at the 8 or 9 EMPTY carriages, a few persons dotted here and there. The fares are so excessive, people, or companies, will not pay those amounts. Please fight against this total political con, before they dig soil.

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bloodaxe says...
8:10pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Stevie D wrote:
To those questioning what happens with the line stopping short of York ... this is common in France with the TGV. High speed tracks run most of the way but then in some cases trains use the 'old' normal lines for the last bit. So it's still a through service using the new high speed trains, but without the need to replace/duplicate the line into York itself.

Well said. You clearly have some experience of LGV. TGV Paris-Nice runs on LGV to Marseille then classic line to Nice. HSTs could do the same. Through trains from Scotland to mainland Europe would be perfectly feasible. As for points raised by some other posters here, the new line will free up space on existing classic lines, so that there is a double advantage.

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bloodaxe says...
8:12pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Madasanibbotson wrote:
I am confused by the headline. If the new line goes to Leeds not York then surely every station in the UK will be linked into it ?
Will York to Leeds be as it is now and then a high speed line ?
As expected JA is claiming the credit for improvements to the East Coast Line, but the line will be London,Birmingham, Manchester to Leeds, maybe my Geography is rusty but we go from York to London down the East Coast, and that doesn't include Manchester and Birmingham.
Perhaps JA can clarify this badly written "Headline"

Where does it say that the line from York will run via Manchester ? It's a Y shaped line, not a serpentine.

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south bronx red 2 says...
8:20pm Mon 28 Jan 13

The press comments as per usual are full of ludites.
Maybe we should rebuild the barwalls and KEEP THEM OUT
York the place which wants your cash but not the vistors or business

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Guy Fawkes says...
8:34pm Mon 28 Jan 13

The JA defenders are quiet. I thought they would all be drinking council tax paid Champagne at the launch. But it was a Conservative/Lib Dem decision so they wouldn't have been invited.

They certainly should have been, given that Labour backed HS2 enthusiastically during their final years in office. HS2 appears to be like Europe - all three political parties are on one side of the debate, and public opinion is on the other.

Medium and long distance travel within the UK is now probably among the most expensive intranational travel in the developed world (whereas its speed, in overall A to B terms, is around the same as it is everywhere else). That is the real problem which is dragging our economy and society backwards, one which HS2 will do nothing to solve.

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baldiebiker says...
9:22pm Mon 28 Jan 13

the bloke on the telly who was objecting about the damage it will cause to the country side, was older than me,we'll be pushing up daisies long before it's built, leave it for those who will be around, or is it something old people do, moan, moan, moan, not me I want to enjoy the time I've left.

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zaccwm says...
9:30pm Mon 28 Jan 13

The 1840s saw 'railway mania': by 1851 6,800 miles of track had been laid. Soon it was possible to travel from London to Bristol in hours rather than days at speeds of around 60 mph. http://www.bbc.co.uk
/history/british/vic
torians/speed_01.sht
ml
So why can this not be achieved in the lifetime of the next parliament rather than be lucky to see in my lifetime! Most of the network seems to be what the Victorians left us, less Beeching's sabotage of course. Beeching is the main reason we are almost totally reliant on the motor car today. Just get on with it please, or we will have no business left in the UK.

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Scarlet Pimpernel says...
10:30pm Mon 28 Jan 13

south bronx red 2 wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
Pros and Cons of HS2:-

On the plus side:-
Coun Alexander gets to London, and away from York even more quickly :-)

On the downside:-
He gets back to York more quickly too :-(
With a but of luck you'll be able to whinge and moan when those southerners moving north wont pay the false price of your shanty town build houses.

Not in 20-years time I won't !

Don't worry though, things are going to change in York very soon - there will be a building boom - Coun Alexander says so.

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Magicman! says...
3:50am Tue 29 Jan 13

The trains will be built to UK loading guage so they can use the ECML north from Ulleskelf, therefore York to Scotland will be on normal lines. Heading south of York, HS2 trains will not call at leeds, the first station being Meadowhall, then Toton (for Nottingham/Derby), Birmingham and then some other places I'm not interested about. York to London time savings aren't anything to shout about because the current ECML route is much more direct than HS2... but HS2 brings benefits for other journeys, as york-sheffield journey times will be almost halved (or more than halved if you compare it to the crosscountry 'revenue raker' that goes via leeds and wakefield instead of the quicker route via doncaster), current york-nottingham journeys take 2 hours or more, but HS2 to Toton will be about 45 minutes, and likewise york-birmingham journeys will be slashed in half: these are the important savings as it's speeding up journeys from one side of the country to the other rather than it just being london-centric. Now if only the original plan for a HS2 link from Leeds/York to Manchester had been retained....

My main concern is the timescale for this: the important part of HS2 (the bits to Leeds and York) will not be open for another 20 years. Compare this to how quickly the Japanese and Chinese can build rail lines and it makes this country look like we're back in Victorian times with just men in boiler suits with shovels to do the work. It shouldn't be any longer than 10 years to build the line, 6 years could be achieveable with enough people employed... but 20 years is simply having a laugh. the West Coast Main Line is already at capacity between Lancaster and Oxenholme, the East Coast Main Line will be at full capacity in about 5 years time... we need new routes to free up capacity now, not in 20 years time when we might have invented teleportation so no longer a need for trains!!

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Caecilius says...
6:14am Tue 29 Jan 13

Magicman, you say that York - Sheffield journey time will be almost halved but by the time you've transferred to a tram at Meadowhall and travelled into the city centre, that time saving will have been cancelled out. What you'll end up with is a less convenient journey that's no quicker than it is at present and for which, no doubt, you'll have paid considerably more in real terms than you do at the moment. As you have to change anyway to get to Nottingham by train from York, I expect there would be a time saving but even so, Toton is miles from the city centre and at present the only way of travelling between them is by bus which, I would guess, will take about half an hour.

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roy_batty says...
7:27am Tue 29 Jan 13

this news would have been a lot more welcome if this city would have benefited in it work wise, this once great rail city will only benefit by greedy estate agents banging up house prices even more hoping to entice more southerners up here to commute on a daily basis...i very much doubt that knocking off 30 minutes on the journey will be a big boom for tourism, specially when the train tickets will no doubt double.
as an ex employee of BREL (aka ABB) i'm a bit p***ed off to see Hugh Bailey posing on the station and claiming like he had a massive part in all of this, when in reality he will have done nothing! York should be building them trains, Labour were in power for 13 years and during the last year Labour had the chance to bring trainbuilding back to York, let it be known that Hugh Bailey and Lord adonis giftwrapped trainmaking to the germans and the japanese!

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pedalling paul says...
7:31am Tue 29 Jan 13

Someone moaned earlier about "problems" with the rail signalling at Doncaster and Leeds.The problems there are simply of inadequate capacity in terms of platforms and a lack of flyovers or dive unders at the junctions on either side. Peterborough is getting extra through platforms, but there is not much scope at the Doncaster & Leeds. But maybe HS2 will siphon off demand and allow the existing capacity to be used more effectively.

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far2bizzy says...
9:37am Tue 29 Jan 13

Wilyorkuk1983 wrote:
far2bizzy - Priceless, a form of super-Skype.......I will tell the board of the multi-national engineering firm I work for about this.........oh wait we already have this on every computer it is called video conferencing.

Yea I know - we use video conferencing as much as we can - but it's still clunky and has a long way to go to replace the 'meeting'. But what I am saying is that in 30 years time the technology will have improved (probably skpe based) and today's younger generation, who are skype-savvy, will be running industry and will be using screens and not trains.

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Ignatius Lumpopo says...
10:51am Tue 29 Jan 13

Caecilius wrote:
Magicman, you say that York - Sheffield journey time will be almost halved but by the time you've transferred to a tram at Meadowhall and travelled into the city centre, that time saving will have been cancelled out. What you'll end up with is a less convenient journey that's no quicker than it is at present and for which, no doubt, you'll have paid considerably more in real terms than you do at the moment. As you have to change anyway to get to Nottingham by train from York, I expect there would be a time saving but even so, Toton is miles from the city centre and at present the only way of travelling between them is by bus which, I would guess, will take about half an hour.

This all assumes you want to be in the city centre. Meadowhall is underneath the M1 as well as on the tram route. Toton will be built to serve 'classic' local trains too so you'll only be ten minutes from either Derby or Nottingham - and the latter may extend its tram network to Toton anyway. Onward connection concerns are totally dependant on where you want to end up.

It's like saying that at present "York to London in 1hr 42 minutes" is correct - providing you actually live on York station and your London destination is the buffer stops at Kings Cross.

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south bronx red 2 says...
12:47pm Tue 29 Jan 13

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:

south bronx red 2 wrote:

Scarlet Pimpernel wrote:
Pros and Cons of HS2:-

On the plus side:-
Coun Alexander gets to London, and away from York even more quickly :-)

On the downside:-
He gets back to York more quickly too :-(
With a but of luck you'll be able to whinge and moan when those southerners moving north wont pay the false price of your shanty town build houses.
Not in 20-years time I won't !

Don't worry though, things are going to change in York very soon - there will be a building boom - Coun Alexander says so.

Correct.
Whilst the vast majority have to work until death.
You'll be moaning that some spainish mayor wont bend over and let you build some cheap 10p millionaries mansion.
As for a housing boom.
There are 5 massive sites in York being sat on, because self interested people like you are only interested in maximum profits based on yesterdays house prices.
Your a joke Paul

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rodney'sdog says...
5:13pm Tue 29 Jan 13

This would have been brilliant for York had we still had the carriage works-which was the biggest disaster for employment in York ever when it was closed-taking an estimated million pounds a month out of our local economy. Who the hell wants to go to London any quicker than they have to nowadays? A total overspend of our money and an unecessary disruption for peoples lives and business's. Money should bve spent on repatraiation of the 200,000 or so europeans that have arrived in the last couple of years and that would give us some spare housing at least...

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Paul Meoff says...
10:00pm Tue 29 Jan 13

rodney'sdog wrote:
This would have been brilliant for York had we still had the carriage works-which was the biggest disaster for employment in York ever when it was closed-taking an estimated million pounds a month out of our local economy. Who the hell wants to go to London any quicker than they have to nowadays? A total overspend of our money and an unecessary disruption for peoples lives and business's. Money should bve spent on repatraiation of the 200,000 or so europeans that have arrived in the last couple of years and that would give us some spare housing at least...

Said Rodders while ranting through his little moustache while clicking his jackboots and fiddling with his lonely testicle.

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MadHaxMan says...
11:26am Wed 30 Jan 13

Guy Fawkes is the top post so far - accurate & realistic.
Real facts as follows:
Already 30 years too late.
The technology will be as outmoded as the steam train by the time it is built.
Will be yet another unquantifiable debt for all tax payers for generations to come, but only benefit a tiny minority who have the personal or business-backed wealth necessary to afford the horrendous cost of the tickets.

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meme says...
3:31pm Wed 30 Jan 13

I hope i try and add some gravitas to these discussions
There are complaints on here about estate agengs 'upping' York's hous eprices and 'greedy' developers hanging on to sites to maximise profits.
Well of course EA's try to get best money.That's what they are paid by their clients to do and sellers would soon complain if they did not so stop blaming them for doing their jobs.
As for developers holding land.. That is rubbish.Sites are not being devloped because of lack of funding AND Yorks affordable housing policies which make devlopment unviable.
People pay the market price. York is very desirable place to live. Housing supply is very low because development is a nightmare here partly because of planning and section 106 requirements and because we have a very restricted land supply
Its the law of supply and demand that makes the market price not devlopers or agents who are an easy target but the wrong one for the public to blame!

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Magicman! says...
12:18am Thu 31 Jan 13

Caecilius wrote:
Magicman, you say that York - Sheffield journey time will be almost halved but by the time you've transferred to a tram at Meadowhall and travelled into the city centre, that time saving will have been cancelled out. What you'll end up with is a less convenient journey that's no quicker than it is at present and for which, no doubt, you'll have paid considerably more in real terms than you do at the moment. As you have to change anyway to get to Nottingham by train from York, I expect there would be a time saving but even so, Toton is miles from the city centre and at present the only way of travelling between them is by bus which, I would guess, will take about half an hour.

I would well expect that by time the important part of HS2 is built (the bit that goes between Birmingham and York) I would well imagine that some local rail network development will have been undertaken so that a direct shuttle train to Sheffield would be waiting in a dedicated bay platform at Meadowhall just a few meters from the HS2 platform, it being timed so that passengers have about 8-10 minutes to change and are then whisked to Sheffield station. Also by that time the TramTrain will be in use and will be of benefit to Rotherham giving them a connection to HS2.
In Nottingham, the train station is due to be closed this summer for several weeks as part of a major resignalling and upgrade scheme - which is just the first stage in a rebuilding of the station... the station scheme will incorporate the NET trams gliding on a track over the top of the station connecting north to south, this being the first part of an expansion plan for NET - the plans do include a proposed line to Toton area.

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Route of new HS2 high-speed rail network unveiled (From York Press)

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Route of new HS2 high-speed rail network unveiled

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