Risk to ‘underused’ part of bus service

8:49am Saturday 12th January 2013 in News Photograph of the Author By Mark Stead, mark.stead@thepress.co.uk

A YORK bus service could be scrapped as transport chiefs claim it is underused.

City of York Council is looking at several services it subsidises, and part of the No 14 route is among those under review.

Bus operator First runs the daytime service between Acomb shops and the York Sport Village on weekdays and Saturdays, having introduced it last October.

However, the council decided to pay for extra hourly buses between Acomb and Piccadilly on Sundays, as well as two early-evening journeys on other days, as a trial.

Coun Dave Merrett, cabinet member for transport, has been advised to withdraw the subsidy for the Sunday and evening services because of “poor usage”.

The services would cost £36,000 if operated for a full year Service reductions over the last three years left the Beckfield Lane area without buses, prompting the trial, according to a report going before a meeting next week.

Officials have also recommended launching fresh tendering exercises to run the No 21 Colton to Foss Islands Retail Park service, currently operated by Harrogate Coach Travel, and the No 35 between Holme-on-Spalding Moor and Piccadilly in York, operated by Coastliner. The York authority splits the cost of these routes with neighbouring councils.

Meanwhile, Coun Merrett will be asked to approve a search for a firm to run new No 24 and No 26 services, which run from Fordlands Road in Fulford to Cornlands Road and Askham Bar respectively.

When First changed its network last autumn, it asked the council to withdraw some subsidies for these Coastliner services because they “duplicated” its new routes and could harm its business.

First also altered its No 11 service so it no longer passed through South Bank. A report by council transport manager Andrew Bradley said this caused public concern and led to a new trial No 15 service to fill the gap at an annual cost of £35,000.

Officers have said an operator should now be sought for a permanent Monday-to-Saturday hourly daytime service through South Bank.

Any proposed changes will be subject to public consultation before being introduced.

Mr Bradley’s report said current contract prices would lead to the council overspending its £774,000 budget for subsidised bus services by £61,000 if the new tenders were approved.

This could mean price rises on the No 21 and 35 routes, although money would be saved on running the No 14 and 15 services.

Comments(36)

heworth.28 says...
9:24am Sat 12 Jan 13

Only been running a few weeks, no? I always thought it was a half-baked attempt to take trade away from east yorkshire & the unibus services?

Report this post »

Stevie D says...
11:18am Sat 12 Jan 13

@heworth.28 - The 14 to the Sports Village is run by First York commercially – it doesn't seem to be all that well-used, but not surprising when Transdev/Unibus runs much more frequently. No, what the council have subsidised is the early evening and Sunday service to Beckfield Lane, where First have really whittled the service down over the years – this is subsidised because there are no other evening or Sunday buses to Beckfield Lane, but if passengers aren't using it then you have to question whether it's sensible to keep it running.

Not sure what's wrong with the 24/26 ... Transdev run these now, and they were running long before First started running the 5 up and down Leeman Road to Acomb. If they don't want the 24/26 competing with them then (a) maybe they shouldn't have started the competition, and (b) perhaps they want to provide a service to all the little back roads and estates that the 24/26 serve.

Report this post »

bob the builder says...
11:53am Sat 12 Jan 13

What and where is the York Sport Village - never heard of it before, is it the posh name for the Knavesmire?

Report this post »

Sawday2 says...
12:32pm Sat 12 Jan 13

bob the builder wrote:
What and where is the York Sport Village - never heard of it before, is it the posh name for the Knavesmire?
Never heard of Google Mr B?

Report this post »

Stevie D says...
12:38pm Sat 12 Jan 13

@bob - York Sport Village is the new sports complex between Grimston Bar and Heslington East, including a big new swimming pool and gym.

Report this post »

holgatebob says...
2:56pm Sat 12 Jan 13

Is there any need for the 14? Just get the 4 and walk a few hundred yards! You are going to a gym after all!

Report this post »

pedalling paul says...
4:46pm Sat 12 Jan 13

T'was Maggie who deregulated the buses......

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
2:02am Sun 13 Jan 13

I'd like the council to alter the sunday service 16, as it has harmed the Monks Cross service - the changes that have been in place for a week on these sunday services now mean there is NO bus to monks cross on a sunday that actually serves any areas of housing... The sunday version of the 12, the 16, only goes to Elmfield Avenue in an unusual loop route - and the reason for this cutting short is to have enough time to run the acomb end of the route... not wanting to sound like an ar$e here, but if the acomb end of the sunday 16 was cut then maybe we'd get sunday buses to Monks Cross again! Either that or combine the sunday service to Monks Cross with the sunday service 11 and run it via the train station, as the end-to-end time would work out at about 54 minutes each way.

The sports village is well served by the 44 going that way every 8 minutes from the train station... if you have a First bus ticket then just walk the rest of the way, unless you have an irony deficiency and can't see the humour in getting a bus right up to the front door of a gym!!

When First changed its network last autumn, it asked the council to withdraw some subsidies for these Coastliner services because they “duplicated” its new routes and could harm its business.

You really can't believe the attitude of this company can you? They start up competition between the city and acomb via leeman road, and then they ask the council to basically stop Transdev from running the routes they've made popular during their term by increasing the frequency over the core route (compared to when First had been running the subsidised route in previous years (back in the early 2000's the 26 was only run once every 2 hours from askham bar with a minibus)) just because it harms their patronage!! Here's an idea First, LOWER YOUR FARES and then you might see a few more people getting on.

Report this post »

York1900 says...
2:29am Sun 13 Jan 13

It is First up to it's old tricks of changing routes to push other operators out of York and try and get subsidised for routes
First do not have the interest of York people at hart they only look at how much they can make from them all the buses are listed as from Leeds depo
They are not as good the York - WestYorkshire Road Car Co Ltd which was the old councils run company that ran the buses before they were deregulated

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
3:00am Sun 13 Jan 13

If the 21 runs on a sunday why not retender it and combine it with the Monks Cross service so the bus runs to Morrisons and then back out the James Street link and down St Maurices Road and towards Monks Cross via Elmfield Avenue and New Lane (or just cut out the loop around Morrisons and run it on to Monks Cross)...?

Report this post »

roskoboskovic says...
9:58am Sun 13 Jan 13

the so called york sports village is there for the benefit of york university and its students.ycc would have you believe that it has given this brand new facility to the york residents when what we really wanted was somewhere nearer the city centre like the barbican.

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
3:44pm Sun 13 Jan 13

The york Council are wasting loads of money First services 14/15/16 and some other services that nobody uses and they is no point changing 24/26 to a NEW operator as Transdev have ran for ages and previously veolia and no other operator has Mini Solos and Transdev have painted they solos into the Blue colours which have costed them money so its just a waste of time changing them to another operator and First have a right cheek asking council to withdraw 24/26 to imporve there 14 which nobody uses and Acomb has loads of services anyway, 15 No point of as no body uses First just keep making services worse for no reason than they want council to pay for them which is a cheek, so 24/26 are good services and First are $h!t Company anyway and should not be making services worse and making council pay for them meaning other services get worse.

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
3:46pm Sun 13 Jan 13

14 - Awful

15- Awful

First Stop making services worse as people are abanding you and I have and now use Transdev

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
3:48pm Sun 13 Jan 13

First Say Transdev dilapidated here new routes well they shouldn't start a service that will then, First have no right to ask council to stop subsidies

Report this post »

Dolly Day Dream says...
4:16pm Sun 13 Jan 13

I live in Copmanthorpe and First changed our buses, No. 13/13A to 1 an hour. Thank goodness we still have the Coastliner coming into Copmanthorpe. They took off the 13A and now send the 13 to Haxby instead of Monks Cross. I do not use the buses as often now and have gone back to the car

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
4:21pm Sun 13 Jan 13

Stevie D wrote:
@heworth.28 - The 14 to the Sports Village is run by First York commercially – it doesn't seem to be all that well-used, but not surprising when Transdev/Unibus runs much more frequently. No, what the council have subsidised is the early evening and Sunday service to Beckfield Lane, where First have really whittled the service down over the years – this is subsidised because there are no other evening or Sunday buses to Beckfield Lane, but if passengers aren't using it then you have to question whether it's sensible to keep it running.

Not sure what's wrong with the 24/26 ... Transdev run these now, and they were running long before First started running the 5 up and down Leeman Road to Acomb. If they don't want the 24/26 competing with them then (a) maybe they shouldn't have started the competition, and (b) perhaps they want to provide a service to all the little back roads and estates that the 24/26 serve.
Yes First are making services worse each year and 24/26 are great services and Transdev have spent money painting all the sols so waste of time changing them and First what a Cheek asking council to stop funding 24/26 as it harms 14 well why did they even start it and 44 comes every 7-8 minuets and 14 doesn't even go to sports village on sundays and 44 they is always one in at the sports village and when its due out the next one comes in so people get on.

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
4:23pm Sun 13 Jan 13

holgatebob wrote:
Is there any need for the 14? Just get the 4 and walk a few hundred yards! You are going to a gym after all!
4 goes to Heslington Hall but 44 goes to sports village every 7-8 mins so no need for 14

Report this post »

Tragic Man! says...
8:17pm Sun 13 Jan 13

If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.

Report this post »

Andy77 says...
8:18pm Sun 13 Jan 13

If First have introduced a commercial service, then they are perfectly entitled to ask that the council to withdraw the subsidy or modify a subsidised service to avoid abstracting revenue from the commercial service

Report this post »

Andy77 says...
8:22pm Sun 13 Jan 13

York1900 wrote:
It is First up to it's old tricks of changing routes to push other operators out of York and try and get subsidised for routes
First do not have the interest of York people at hart they only look at how much they can make from them all the buses are listed as from Leeds depo
They are not as good the York - WestYorkshire Road Car Co Ltd which was the old councils run company that ran the buses before they were deregulated
All of the Transdev buses are listed as being from Harrogate, and WYRCC were listed as being from Leeds, so your point is what??????

WYRCC wasnt as good as people made out, or it wouldn't have split into Keighley, Harrogate, Coastliner etc in the early 90s, and wouldn't have sold the York operations off!!!!!!

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
1:07pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Tragic Man! wrote:
If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.
Yes but 14 would need supporting anyway as it hardly gets used so First might as well withdraw it and 26 is a great service as it goes round small streets and going to Tesco so they would waste money

Report this post »

Tragic Man! says...
4:44pm Mon 14 Jan 13

bicky98 wrote:
Tragic Man! wrote:
If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.
Yes but 14 would need supporting anyway as it hardly gets used so First might as well withdraw it and 26 is a great service as it goes round small streets and going to Tesco so they would waste money
the 14 is commercial apart from the two evening trips and the Sunday which the Council intend to withdraw.

So you are suggesting that First withdraw the 14 and the 5, which would attract no subsidy, so they can keep paying another firm to run over the same route?

Or can they save some money running the social elements of the route that need to be covered for less?

Or can us hard pressed tax payers see our money better spent?

Answers on a post card please!

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
8:16pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Tragic Man! wrote:
bicky98 wrote:
Tragic Man! wrote:
If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.
Yes but 14 would need supporting anyway as it hardly gets used so First might as well withdraw it and 26 is a great service as it goes round small streets and going to Tesco so they would waste money
the 14 is commercial apart from the two evening trips and the Sunday which the Council intend to withdraw.

So you are suggesting that First withdraw the 14 and the 5, which would attract no subsidy, so they can keep paying another firm to run over the same route?

Or can they save some money running the social elements of the route that need to be covered for less?

Or can us hard pressed tax payers see our money better spent?

Answers on a post card please!
No not 14

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
8:20pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Andy77 wrote:
If First have introduced a commercial service, then they are perfectly entitled to ask that the council to withdraw the subsidy or modify a subsidised service to avoid abstracting revenue from the commercial service
No they do not have the right at all when first will say fund the 14 when they stop funding 24/26 when they are better routes since they go down small streets and link up Tesco, york, Acomb and fulford

Report this post »

MouseHouse says...
7:39am Tue 15 Jan 13

pedalling paul wrote:
T'was Maggie who deregulated the buses......
...but not in London. Why? They knew the chaos it would, and has, caused.

Public transport - road, rail and air should be nationalised.

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
4:42am Wed 16 Jan 13

bicky98 wrote:
holgatebob wrote:
Is there any need for the 14? Just get the 4 and walk a few hundred yards! You are going to a gym after all!
4 goes to Heslington Hall but 44 goes to sports village every 7-8 mins so no need for 14
Exactly, and with the new buses which I have pictures of on Flikr having come across from Burnley (along with two original Coastliner single deckers and a Lancashire one which I have model of in Coastliner colours) the frequency has been increased so it is the most frequent service in York.... The only useful purpose of the 14 is that it doubles service frequency as it cannons with the 10 between Hull Road and the A59 Beckfield Lane junction... First could run a service from Clifton Moor to the A59 and then as the 14 to Hull Road and then serve the Badger Hill estate - as some areas of the estate are quite a walk away from a regular bus route, I expect that would see a fair emount of use.

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
4:55am Wed 16 Jan 13

Tragic Man! wrote:
If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.
Bear in mind that service 20 was originally a fully subsidised route between Monks Cross and Clifton Moor, whilst there was a service 55 (previously 29) between Monks Cross and the University, again fully subsidised.... for a couple of years now Transdev have been running these routes combined together in the new route 20 as an entirely commercial service with no subsidy, and last year they tried running sunday services 112 and 113 as commercial ones to save the council money (not enough people used them on sundays and they're now subsidised again) - do you honestly think First would take an underused subsidised route and try running it commercially??! Heck, they have subsidised evening services they got rid of even though they were being paid to run them (sunday services on 10, 11, 12, evening services on the 10 and 12)


(oh and I see what you done there with your name... wise guy eh?)

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
4:58am Wed 16 Jan 13

Andy77 wrote:
York1900 wrote:
It is First up to it's old tricks of changing routes to push other operators out of York and try and get subsidised for routes
First do not have the interest of York people at hart they only look at how much they can make from them all the buses are listed as from Leeds depo
They are not as good the York - WestYorkshire Road Car Co Ltd which was the old councils run company that ran the buses before they were deregulated
All of the Transdev buses are listed as being from Harrogate, and WYRCC were listed as being from Leeds, so your point is what??????

WYRCC wasnt as good as people made out, or it wouldn't have split into Keighley, Harrogate, Coastliner etc in the early 90s, and wouldn't have sold the York operations off!!!!!!
It was split in the 90's when deregulation laws forced municipals to be broken up. The operations as they are now were actually a lot different when they were first broken up (york and coastliner were one sector for example)

Report this post »

Tragic Man! says...
8:36am Wed 16 Jan 13

Magicman! wrote:
Tragic Man! wrote:
If the council can save some money paying for subsidies it does not need to, as a council tax payer, i'm all for it. Sorry if that upsets those who get aroused over the thought of the comings and goings of Transdev.
Bear in mind that service 20 was originally a fully subsidised route between Monks Cross and Clifton Moor, whilst there was a service 55 (previously 29) between Monks Cross and the University, again fully subsidised.... for a couple of years now Transdev have been running these routes combined together in the new route 20 as an entirely commercial service with no subsidy, and last year they tried running sunday services 112 and 113 as commercial ones to save the council money (not enough people used them on sundays and they're now subsidised again) - do you honestly think First would take an underused subsidised route and try running it commercially??! Heck, they have subsidised evening services they got rid of even though they were being paid to run them (sunday services on 10, 11, 12, evening services on the 10 and 12)


(oh and I see what you done there with your name... wise guy eh?)
Yet again you are not fully aware of the facts, the First evening and Sunday services to which you referer that were withdrawn in 2009 were commercial, 10 eves did not attract a subisdy until Pullman threatened to pull out on the evenings. 12 was only subisidised from Acomb Park to York, Haxby was commercial on an evening until First were going to pull it for carrying an average of 1 person per trip on the late evening journeys to Haxby.
10 was and never has been subsidised on a Sunday on the trips First operate.
The only tendered services that were de registered were ones that the company lost on tender, with the exception of service 35 which was deemed not to fit in with the operational profile.

Report this post »

Magicman! says...
2:09am Thu 17 Jan 13

I'm talking about the Current number 12 route to Monks Cross, which was previously the 13, the 16, the 17, the 16 again, the 13 again, the 6, 14, etc - I could go on as this service changes its number every 2 years. Sunday services on the route have always been subsidised.

By the way it's also more likely the routes that were commercially registered then had the tender removed simply because that makes more sense, rather than the company losing the tender and suddenly registering it as commercial just so no other company could have a service that isn't particularly profitable!

The old 'circle line' 55 that pullman operated, previously 28 and 29, which were previously the 128 (both variations operated by Top Line Travel) were subsidised services, as these followed on from the Y28 and Y29 which operated back into the 1990's as Pullman Easylink tendered services (served by purple and orange Dennis Darts) - these were all subsidised until the council decided to remove the tender for these routes a few years ago, along with retendering the 20. The 20 was awarded to Transdev who ran the Monks Cross to Clifton Moor with subsidy but tried the Monks Cross to Fulford section commercially, until recently when the entire route was changed to commercial.

Report this post »

Tragic Man! says...
8:11pm Thu 17 Jan 13

you really must learn not to comment about things you do not understand.

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
9:21pm Thu 17 Jan 13

in the booklet for the 20 it says this service runs with financial support and CYC helped make the new timetable and are aware of its lateness on Early morning journeys and have control over it and when it changes ovcourse Transdev have a say.

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
8:17am Fri 18 Jan 13

They are No commercial Journeys at all on route 20 as I have asked Paul Brand who works in the Tranport part of York Council and he says they is not any, "There are no commercial journeys on route 20 – they all operate under contract to the Council.

Regarding your query about routes 24 and 26, I’ll be producing a briefing note (with revised map) in the next week or so which will go on the website. I’ll try to remember to forward you a copy as well.

Regards
Paul

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
8:58pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Stagecoach can buy out first york or even better Transdev but I don't think Transdev would but I would like them to, arriva is also a good company but they run services 415 & 42 to York from selby

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
9:01pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Yorks best bus service is the 44 as its hardly ever late as 2 buses don't come at once (only at the terminus but that's as it's early) and its every 7-8 mins

Report this post »

bicky98 says...
9:02pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Magicman! wrote:
If the 21 runs on a sunday why not retender it and combine it with the Monks Cross service so the bus runs to Morrisons and then back out the James Street link and down St Maurices Road and towards Monks Cross via Elmfield Avenue and New Lane (or just cut out the loop around Morrisons and run it on to Monks Cross)...?
Service 21 would not be able to be funded but it could soon be Transdev York

Report this post »

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree