Longer car-free zones approved for York's city centre (From York Press)

We need more bike racks in town, NOWHERE to park today now the old railings have gone!

BertieBrompton wrote:
We need more bike racks in town, NOWHERE to park today now the old railings have gone!

Go on the bus!

Good move on increasing car free hours. Just need a 20mph limit inside the ring road to encourage cycling, make the streets safer and have a better place to live.

From the headlines I take it cyclists are free to go where they want through the 'car free zones'

No change there then......

Why would Deighton want a 40mph limit? There is only the pub that fronts onto the A19, the rest of the village is all to the west of the road with only one junction into it.
Skelton which is similarly situated to the north of York has a 50 limit which is perfectly adequate

Mullarkian wrote:
Why would Deighton want a 40mph limit? There is only the pub that fronts onto the A19, the rest of the village is all to the west of the road with only one junction into it.
Skelton which is similarly situated to the north of York has a 50 limit which is perfectly adequate

Exactly true, it makes NO sense at all

Do the Council not realise they are killing the city. If Engineers, Deliveries etc cannot get into town then the shops move out !!! A Parking area for service vehicles should be provided within the city walls.

Work will also be carried out at the junction of St Leonard’s Place, Gillygate and Bootham to make more space for cyclists, remove “unnecessary” guardrail sections...

Those would be the "unnecessary" guardrail sections that currently prevent cyclists from riding up onto the pavement at high speed as soon as they encounter a traffic jam, and pedestrians from trying to cross the road on the apex of a blind bend. If they are removed, I predict that serious accidents caused by these two activities will become commonplace.

Guy Fawkes wrote:

Work will also be carried out at the junction of St Leonard’s Place, Gillygate and Bootham to make more space for cyclists, remove “unnecessary” guardrail sections...

Those would be the "unnecessary" guardrail sections that currently prevent cyclists from riding up onto the pavement at high speed as soon as they encounter a traffic jam, and pedestrians from trying to cross the road on the apex of a blind bend. If they are removed, I predict that serious accidents caused by these two activities will become commonplace.

Exactly..

Congratulations to York Council on such a ridiculous decision. This does extend the footstreet hours by a small amount.

What it does, is severely restrict the delivery hours. For those shops that open at 10.00 it now becomes virtually impossible to deliver in the morning. it will be a mad rush with every delivery company trying to be everywhere for a mad half hour.

For those shops that close at 5.00, it will be impossible to deliver to in the evening.

For those shops where deliveries become a real chore moving out of town or to another town has to be real option.

To York Council, over the years many decisions you have made seem stupid but this REALLY takes the biscuit.

I drive through Deighton every day and can see no problem with a 40mph limit: safer for pedestrians, buses and their passengers, and people turning in and out of the side road and the pub. It's the people in Deighton itself who are asking for the lower limit and their views on what is appropriate should be respected.

It's the people in Deighton itself who are asking for the lower limit and their views on what is appropriate should be respected.

But it's a lot more than the people in Deighton itself who need to use the A19 for commuting, deliveries and all the other economic activity that an A-road has to facilitate. And the lengthened journey times have a real impact. Another five minutes per journey might not sound like much, but it's almost an hour on your weekly commute.

A few years ago, speed humps were installed in the housing development (300 Barratt boxes on the edge of a town) where a friend lives, after the residents campaigned for them. Shortly afterwards, the nearby supermarket announced a £2 surcharge on all online order/van delivery purchases if the delivery was in an area with speed humps, to cover the cost of increased journey times and wear and tear on the van. A bus route that served the estate was then re-routed to bypass it. The moral of the story: be careful what you wish for when you campaign for increasing restrictions and impediments on road use.

Guy Fawkes wrote:

It's the people in Deighton itself who are asking for the lower limit and their views on what is appropriate should be respected.

But it's a lot more than the people in Deighton itself who need to use the A19 for commuting, deliveries and all the other economic activity that an A-road has to facilitate. And the lengthened journey times have a real impact. Another five minutes per journey might not sound like much, but it's almost an hour on your weekly commute.

A few years ago, speed humps were installed in the housing development (300 Barratt boxes on the edge of a town) where a friend lives, after the residents campaigned for them. Shortly afterwards, the nearby supermarket announced a £2 surcharge on all online order/van delivery purchases if the delivery was in an area with speed humps, to cover the cost of increased journey times and wear and tear on the van. A bus route that served the estate was then re-routed to bypass it. The moral of the story: be careful what you wish for when you campaign for increasing restrictions and impediments on road use.

Sounds like someone needs to do their maths.

At 60mph a mile takes 60 seconds.
At 40mph a mile takes 90 seconds

To add 5 minutes to the journey, the reduced speed would need to be a 10 miles stretch. This would take you from the outer ring road to Selby.

Added journey time for a one mile 40mph stretch through Deighton would be 30 seconds. Not a life changing amount, but could be a life saving one.

The trouble with deliveries in York centra is that shops do not want to have 1 or 2 staff starting at 6am just to sort out deliveries but if they did

they would get the benefit that they did not have deliverier truck blocking there door way and Deliveries blocking the shop floor

If you take this that the shops would ready to serve people as soon as they open and may get more people shopping as they go to work

It would not take allot for shops in York to sort this out as they could require there delivers to have given a time slot for delivery and have there street clear of delivery trucks by opening time

Deighton residents who called for a 40mph limit have a good point it would also make it easer for them to get on to the A19 that drop of 20mph makes a lot of difference when you are trying to pull out of a junction

York1900 wrote:
The trouble with deliveries in York centra is that shops do not want to have 1 or 2 staff starting at 6am just to sort out deliveries but if they did

they would get the benefit that they did not have deliverier truck blocking there door way and Deliveries blocking the shop floor

If you take this that the shops would ready to serve people as soon as they open and may get more people shopping as they go to work

It would not take allot for shops in York to sort this out as they could require there delivers to have given a time slot for delivery and have there street clear of delivery trucks by opening time

As a delivery driver who already works from before 7.00am to after 6.00pm I am not prepared to deliver at 6.00 am as you suggest, nor would most couriers.

A shop can't demand timed a delivery slot. This is impracticle. Timed delivery slots are ok for artic. lorries who only have one delivery but not for multidrop drivers who work a "route". You can't deliver to drops a,b,d,e,f and them go back to "c". You simply don't have enough time to double back to make a "timed delivery".

This is a ridiculous plan that shows a complete lack of comprehension in how businesses operate and to do this in the name of safety is laughable. If the Council's aim is to drive shops out of York then they should give themselves a pat on the back.

While this will impact on disabled drivers the main problem is for delivery vehicles. Goods do not miraculously teleport themselves into shops. Yes, lorries and vans are unsightly and difficult to get round our historic streets but they are a necessity if we want to acquire goods from the city centre. It is plain daft to expect small businesses to open at hours when there are no customers and delivery drivers do not operate. Shops open for businesses hours, not just trading hours.

As for safety, what this does is create a narrow window where every van is trying deliver at a time when people are leaving work. In that high pressured environment of drivers rushing to make all their deliveries an accident is far more likely to occur and it will be due to this decision.

sheps lad wrote:

BertieBrompton wrote:
We need more bike racks in town, NOWHERE to park today now the old railings have gone!

Go on the bus!

I work nights and live in huntington. the last bus to my house leaves stonebow at 4.40pm. There is one lamp post I can lock my bike to which is anywhere near the staff entrance.

We all knew the council would pass this motion, as anything that will make a situation worse seems to go through (such as doubling Water End to two lanes despite Police arguing against it, which alone didn't reduce queues so the traffic light timings were fiddled with and now traffic from the A19/Rawcliffe Lane junction is no longer synchronised with Water End junction)... Be prepared for blocked streets in the morning and a huge queue of vans going down Goodramgate and blocking Monk Bar on an evening.

And I bet no signs stating the "car free" hours will be put up at the entrances either!
Also, stating this as "car free", does this mean cycles are now legally allowed to enter the area, or is this poor press journalism again?

York1900 wrote:
The trouble with deliveries in York centra is that shops do not want to have 1 or 2 staff starting at 6am just to sort out deliveries but if they did

they would get the benefit that they did not have deliverier truck blocking there door way and Deliveries blocking the shop floor

If you take this that the shops would ready to serve people as soon as they open and may get more people shopping as they go to work

It would not take allot for shops in York to sort this out as they could require there delivers to have given a time slot for delivery and have there street clear of delivery trucks by opening time

Is English your first language?

why does merrett get to make these decisions.the bloke is an idiot and seemingly oblivious to the effect that his measures have on the citys traffic flow.

The Govt. imposed Cabinet style decision making onto local Authorities, to cut red tape and speed up decision making. That's why many decisions are delegated to a single Councillor who is Cabuinet member for the relevant area of responsibility.

Tunnels. We need a lot of underground tunnels.

Dual the northern ring road, it is the only solution!

"Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours...

Talk about an over-reaction peoples.

Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade.

Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not.

Have some sense of proportion folks.

There's a 40 mph speed limit in Escrick that no-one sticks to - even when I'm walking alongside the road with small children lorries & cars hurtle past at incredible speeds. I am fairly certain this would be the case in Deighton too?

Von_Dutch wrote:
"Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours...

Talk about an over-reaction peoples.

Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade.

Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not.

Have some sense of proportion folks.

I do not know where you are talking of. I see plenty of cars, bikes and delivery vans occupying the same streets through the day in every european city I have ever visited!
It is not just about deliveries, if I want to buy a large item in the York, many shops are not open until 10am, I have to get into the city centre, buy the TV and load it into my car and get out of the City within 30 minutes...and people wonder why the in-town shopping experience is pound shops.

"Resident David Dickman said"

CHEAP AS CHIPS!!!

"residents say the road, where a teenager was killed earlier this year, is an accident blackspot and only a 40mph limit would solve its problems. "

Someone needs to read up on what an 'accident blackspot' actually is...

From Wikipedia..."For some decades treatment of accident blackspots (e.g. by signage, speed restrictions, improving sightlines, straightening bends, or speed cameras) was a mainstay of road safety policy, but current thinking has it that the benefits of these interventions are often overstated. Effects such as regression to the mean, risk compensation and accident migration combine to reduce the overall benefit.

In some cases it has been claimed that the end result is an increase in overall casualties. In one notable experiment, a number of accident blackspots were "treated" with a null treatment - placement of a garden gnome, according to some reports. Accident rates at these points were found to have decreased significantly in the following period, a finding which is taken as clear evidence supporting the theory of regression to the mean."

So - sticking a garden gnome by the side of the road will probably have as much effect on accidents as reducing the speed limit (do we know whether that motor cyclist that was killed as a result of exceeding the speed limit ?)

Finally, There are far more users of the road than a small group of residents. Shouldn't they have a say, after all any regular commuter on the route will be using the road far more than most of the residents?

eeoodares wrote:

Von_Dutch wrote: "Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours... Talk about an over-reaction peoples. Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade. Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not. Have some sense of proportion folks.

I do not know where you are talking of. I see plenty of cars, bikes and delivery vans occupying the same streets through the day in every european city I have ever visited! It is not just about deliveries, if I want to buy a large item in the York, many shops are not open until 10am, I have to get into the city centre, buy the TV and load it into my car and get out of the City within 30 minutes...and people wonder why the in-town shopping experience is pound shops.

If I were to go to Meadowhall and buy a TV from Currys, would i be expecting to be able to pull up immediately outside it's front entrance within the mall? (OK, so i know that was a bit pedantic, but my analogy is broadly similar...)

Let's be honest, there's not really many large-goods shops in the footstreets of York. And those there are offer home-delivery.

Von_Dutch wrote:
"Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours... Talk about an over-reaction peoples. Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade. Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not. Have some sense of proportion folks.

How many hours a day (if any) do you work?

Yes it is totally unreasonable to deliver at night. I would like to sleep some time. As I said in my previous post, I am at work from 07.00am until after 6.00 in the evening.

In a subsequent post you mention about home deliveries. Yes, I do those too. How can I collect your goods from these shops when delivery hours are so restrictive?

The biggest problem with the streets on the edge of the pedestrian zone are buses, I can't belive they are still allowed to use Coppergate, and further can't believe there hasn't been more accidents, when you could send buses down to Piccadilly and up to Stonebow that way?!

pedalling paul wrote:
The Govt. imposed Cabinet style decision making onto local Authorities, to cut red tape and speed up decision making. That's why many decisions are delegated to a single Councillor who is Cabuinet member for the relevant area of responsibility.

Maybe, it's such a shame that person doesn't think through all the consequences.

Von_Dutch wrote:
"Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours...

Talk about an over-reaction peoples.

Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade.

Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not.

Have some sense of proportion folks.

It might seem an over-reaction to some but these must be the same people that think goods magically teleport themselves into shops at midnight in an eco-friendly way. To anyone affected by the decision (shops, businesses, delivery drivers) it's fairly important.

Of course pedestrian shoppers are important but you actually need something to sell them. Small shops do not have the resources to open for longer hours. Maybe we aren't heading to a ghost town, just a city centre filled with large-chain shops and devoid of character. At this time of economic difficulty it'd be nice if we actually helped small ventures.

Kelly Smunt wrote:
Good move on increasing car free hours. Just need a 20mph limit inside the ring road to encourage cycling, make the streets safer and have a better place to live.

Oh get a grip! you want to spend twice as much on fuel and twice the time getting from say the College to Huntington then be my guest to stick to 20 all the way, I won't!

Cars barely obey the rules as it is, there's nothing to enforce it so the only time these 'rules' help anyone is if someone is knocked over and injured - even then they have to prey they're not killed so they have a chance of benefiting from the unimposed rules.

The '1 way system' for busses entering stonebow and leaving piccadilly would be a good idea tho..

Magicman! wrote:
We all knew the council would pass this motion, as anything that will make a situation worse seems to go through (such as doubling Water End to two lanes despite Police arguing against it, which alone didn't reduce queues so the traffic light timings were fiddled with and now traffic from the A19/Rawcliffe Lane junction is no longer synchronised with Water End junction)... Be prepared for blocked streets in the morning and a huge queue of vans going down Goodramgate and blocking Monk Bar on an evening.

And I bet no signs stating the "car free" hours will be put up at the entrances either!
Also, stating this as "car free", does this mean cycles are now legally allowed to enter the area, or is this poor press journalism again?

Yep. As anyone with a grain of common sense predicted, all that's been achieved by giving preference to traffic coming up Water End is to displace the problem - and of course to make the junction more dangerous. At busy times, the tailbacks along the other three roads meeting at the junction are longer than ever. At quiet times, people are kept waiting and waiting for nonexistent traffic to emerge from Water End, because the timing of the lights has been changed. The problem was always the sheer number of vehicles on the road. Anything that doesn't address that, won't solve the problem. And councillors knew it but didn't want to be bothered with the facts.

roskoboskovic wrote:
why does merrett get to make these decisions.the bloke is an idiot and seemingly oblivious to the effect that his measures have on the citys traffic flow.

No he is not oblivious to the effect these decisions have on traffic flows he knows exactly what it will do.

£1/4m pounds to mess up Fishergate and inflict more misery on the good people of York, and by the way, I thought it very bad taste to bring up a tragic story as your excuse for this change when we all know what it is about.
How much do a couple of 40mph signs cost to give the residents of Dieghton what they are seeking? You can spend what you like slowing down already slow traffic in York but you can’t do this small thing for Dieghton shame on you again.

Lolita wrote:
There's a 40 mph speed limit in Escrick that no-one sticks to - even when I'm walking alongside the road with small children lorries & cars hurtle past at incredible speeds. I am fairly certain this would be the case in Deighton too?

I drive home through Escrick most evenings and would struggle to do 40mph due to the volume of traffic, even if I wanted to. I do however feel that due to the proximity of the pavement and road at certain points in the village, you no doubt feel that vehicles are going faster than they actually are. A lot of lorries only do 40mph on the full stretch of A19 between Selby and York as that is their speed limit. On a related matter, you could then get in to the discussion that this actually causes accidents because car drivers get frustrated and overtake when they shouldn’t – a common problem on the A15 down to Lincoln. I believe the police have asked for a trial to increase the speed limit for LGV’s to see if it lowers the accident rate but have drawn a blank so far, but I don’t suppose the police know what they are talking about, instead lets listen to the likes of BRAKE.

Marvellous another tin pot stupid idea by York CC, lets cut off the delivery and maintenance engineers time to do work in the town centre shops.

Does this stupid council listen to those that pay their wages ? I would seem not.

I regularly have to do maintenance in the city centre, carrying tools and materials simply is not a viable option, nor is getting up at the crack of dawn or last thing at night, the 5pm time is ridiculous.

Steve, wrote:

Kelly Smunt wrote:
Good move on increasing car free hours. Just need a 20mph limit inside the ring road to encourage cycling, make the streets safer and have a better place to live.

Oh get a grip! you want to spend twice as much on fuel and twice the time getting from say the College to Huntington then be my guest to stick to 20 all the way, I won't!

Cars barely obey the rules as it is, there's nothing to enforce it so the only time these 'rules' help anyone is if someone is knocked over and injured - even then they have to prey they're not killed so they have a chance of benefiting from the unimposed rules.

The '1 way system' for busses entering stonebow and leaving piccadilly would be a good idea tho..

20mph uses twice as much fuel.

20mph doubles journey time in a 30mph zone where you could never complete the journey at 30mph going through town.

Grasp of physics and maths is second only to grasp of English.

Von_Dutch wrote:

eeoodares wrote:

Von_Dutch wrote: "Outrage" at miniscule tweak of pedestrian hours... Talk about an over-reaction peoples. Deliveries need to be made before 10.30am or after 5.00pm. Is this unreasonable? I think the vast majority of people would say no it is not. In such a thriving city as York there are far too many pedestrians in the narrow streets - these same shoppers who the stores rely on for their trade. Most other cities in the UK, and especially touristy historic ones such as ours, have far longer car-free hours than York (and in Europe they're pretty much night-time deliveries only). Do they turn into ghost-towns? I think not. Have some sense of proportion folks.

I do not know where you are talking of. I see plenty of cars, bikes and delivery vans occupying the same streets through the day in every european city I have ever visited! It is not just about deliveries, if I want to buy a large item in the York, many shops are not open until 10am, I have to get into the city centre, buy the TV and load it into my car and get out of the City within 30 minutes...and people wonder why the in-town shopping experience is pound shops.

If I were to go to Meadowhall and buy a TV from Currys, would i be expecting to be able to pull up immediately outside it's front entrance within the mall? (OK, so i know that was a bit pedantic, but my analogy is broadly similar...)

Let's be honest, there's not really many large-goods shops in the footstreets of York. And those there are offer home-delivery.

'Let's be honest, there's not really many large-goods shops in the footstreets of York'.... Thank you Dutch, you have just proved my point, there used to be plenty! Still like you say we can always drive to an out of town shopping centre.

Before imposing new traffic rules wouldn't it be cheaper to enforce those we currently have and study the effect? Everyday one sees drivers, cyclists, AND pdestrians(!!) floting the rules as they know they've an excellent chance of getting away with it.

BertieBrompton wrote:
We need more bike racks in town, NOWHERE to park today now the old railings have gone!

You should not be locking your bike to the railings you pleb

CyC is at it again, talking utter bull, it can not even enforce the traffic movement order that we have now, every one and his cat drives through the city centre. and nothing ever happens to them, delivery drivers are vermin parking up during in the loading ban bringing the city to a stand still, parking on the zigzags of a crossing thats just bloody dangerous parking in bus stops. elderly passengers can not board the bus safely nor them with buggies, if CyC is going to do some thing then ENFORCE that they have now