Risks of fracking

Risks of fracking

Risks of fracking

First published in Letters by

THE British Government has just launched a new bidding round for fracking licences which covers around half of the UK, and has smoothed the legal regulation and reduced the potential for costly legal challenges.

It has even created an undefined loophole of “exceptional circumstances” to pump toxic chemicals into our National Parks. I remember that David Cameron has pledged that Britain would go “all out” for shale gas.

On Wednesday, the public German Federal Environmental Agency (UBA) published an advisory opinion on oil and gas extraction through fracking. Its core message: at the moment Germany should abstain from fracking for gas extraction, until the risks are better explored and there is a comprehensive legal regulation. And even then, the technique should be used only under very strict conditions.

The UBA President Maria Krautzberger said “As long as there are significant risks of this technology that cannot yet be predicted with certainty and mastered, there should be no fracking in Germany to extract shale and coalbed methane.”

It is interesting to see which double standards are applied by different governments when it comes to calculating a risk for the health of their subjects and the environment.

Lars Kramm, Leven Road, Dringhouses, York.

Comments (18)

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11:25am Fri 1 Aug 14

SteveSCA says...

Oh well, if Germany are doing something then they must obviously be right and we must be wrong, and we should automatically do the same!
Oh well, if Germany are doing something then they must obviously be right and we must be wrong, and we should automatically do the same! SteveSCA
  • Score: 5

12:36pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Dave Taylor says...

The evidence from the USA is catastrophic. Whole communities are now reduced to having their water delivered in tankers as the aquifer has been polluted with fracking chemicals and radioactive isotopes flushed out of the shale bed. Hundreds of thousands of fish have been killed including 70,000 in one incident in Ohio. Fracking states like Kansas, Ohio and Oklahoma, where seismic activity had generally been infrequent, have seen a sudden increase in earthquakes, and methane is being released indiscriminately into the atmosphere adding to global warming (considerably worse than CO2 in this respect). Germany is right to take a precautionary approach. Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice. We can't afford to poison our small island.
The evidence from the USA is catastrophic. Whole communities are now reduced to having their water delivered in tankers as the aquifer has been polluted with fracking chemicals and radioactive isotopes flushed out of the shale bed. Hundreds of thousands of fish have been killed including 70,000 in one incident in Ohio. Fracking states like Kansas, Ohio and Oklahoma, where seismic activity had generally been infrequent, have seen a sudden increase in earthquakes, and methane is being released indiscriminately into the atmosphere adding to global warming (considerably worse than CO2 in this respect). Germany is right to take a precautionary approach. Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice. We can't afford to poison our small island. Dave Taylor
  • Score: -8

1:46pm Fri 1 Aug 14

ColdAsChristmas says...

Come off it Dave, our small islands are being poisoned by an unsustainable and growing population. What are you doing about that?
The truth is we need this energy ever more since your mob has been campaigning to close our coal mines and power stations.
Germany don't need to worry too much about fracking and why should they? They have an endless supply of Putin's Russian gas since Germany started closing down their nuclear generators.
Dave, you are an idealist, rather like Andy D but your ideals won't keep us warm in the Winter or keep what remains of our industry turning!
Come off it Dave, our small islands are being poisoned by an unsustainable and growing population. What are you doing about that? The truth is we need this energy ever more since your mob has been campaigning to close our coal mines and power stations. Germany don't need to worry too much about fracking and why should they? They have an endless supply of Putin's Russian gas since Germany started closing down their nuclear generators. Dave, you are an idealist, rather like Andy D but your ideals won't keep us warm in the Winter or keep what remains of our industry turning! ColdAsChristmas
  • Score: -8

2:45pm Fri 1 Aug 14

bravo whisky says...

Dead right ColdasChristmas, the Green party have backed the labour cronies all the way in polluting our Island with unrestrained immigration.
Dead right ColdasChristmas, the Green party have backed the labour cronies all the way in polluting our Island with unrestrained immigration. bravo whisky
  • Score: -5

3:25pm Fri 1 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Come on Dave Taylor. The Ohio incident you quote appears to have been caused by a fire at the site which caused chemicals to spill into a nearby creek. This could happen at a water treatment plant in the UK does that mean we stop treating water and go down to the river with buckets to get our own?.

On the letter itself. It is notable that the scaremongering minority only point to potential risks. Have a search of the web yourself to see if you can find any actual deaths directly attributable to the Fracking process that are not just claims which come from one of the minority environmentalist web sites. Keep in mind that Fracking has been going on since the 1940s so some official stats should be available.

Now lets have a look at some known risks that affect our citizens in the UK: -
From what I can see we have more than 20,000 actual deaths each year as a result of people being cold during the winter. These deaths are mainly amongst older more venerable people and reports say there is a direct correlation between cold and winter deaths.

I must admit it enrages me to see these scare mongering minority groups trying, and indeed succeeding, in ensuring that the cost of energy is kept high due to their unproven theories which will ensure we keep allowing our pensioners to be killed by cold in their own homes rather than using techniques which have been around since the 1940s to try to alleviate the pressure on fuel prices. What is even worse is that their scaremongering is largely done to dissuade us from the use of fossil fuels. This is their main priority and has been the cause of many thousands of deaths due to the fuel poverty it created in the first place.

So next time you see a bit of this scaremongering theory based propaganda just spare a small thought for the older generation who can no longer afford to heat their homes and who for a fact will killed due to these minority campaigners and there unproven causes.
Come on Dave Taylor. The Ohio incident you quote appears to have been caused by a fire at the site which caused chemicals to spill into a nearby creek. This could happen at a water treatment plant in the UK does that mean we stop treating water and go down to the river with buckets to get our own?. On the letter itself. It is notable that the scaremongering minority only point to potential risks. Have a search of the web yourself to see if you can find any actual deaths directly attributable to the Fracking process that are not just claims which come from one of the minority environmentalist web sites. Keep in mind that Fracking has been going on since the 1940s so some official stats should be available. Now lets have a look at some known risks that affect our citizens in the UK: - From what I can see we have more than 20,000 actual deaths each year as a result of people being cold during the winter. These deaths are mainly amongst older more venerable people and reports say there is a direct correlation between cold and winter deaths. I must admit it enrages me to see these scare mongering minority groups trying, and indeed succeeding, in ensuring that the cost of energy is kept high due to their unproven theories which will ensure we keep allowing our pensioners to be killed by cold in their own homes rather than using techniques which have been around since the 1940s to try to alleviate the pressure on fuel prices. What is even worse is that their scaremongering is largely done to dissuade us from the use of fossil fuels. This is their main priority and has been the cause of many thousands of deaths due to the fuel poverty it created in the first place. So next time you see a bit of this scaremongering theory based propaganda just spare a small thought for the older generation who can no longer afford to heat their homes and who for a fact will killed due to these minority campaigners and there unproven causes. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 8

6:01pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Dave Taylor says...

Oil & Gas companies have not claimed that prices would reduce in the UK so don't talk nonsense. Environmentalists do not expect old people to have cold homes or that energy prices should be high, so don't tell such blatant lies.

We SHOULD create jobs insulating older properties, and Green Councillors persuaded the Council to do some of this in York. This results in lower bills.

We SHOULD be investing in renewables like wind, wave, solar and biomass (but not shipping it around the world!) Britain is decades behind Scandinavia and Germany (recently hot a record of 72% of energy generated by renewables) and even Spain where wind power is the largest source of energy!

We SHOULD invest in Carbon Capture & Storage technology to improve our coal-fired stations.

I never mentioned fracking deaths, but 545 workers died in 4 years in the US frack-fields, and fatal road accidents have rocketed by up to 42% as it requires 2,300 to 4,000 truck trips per well to deliver mixtures of water, sand and chemicals to a drilling site. Health-wise, fracking is causing the deaths of fish and farm animals and people in the vicinity of wells have reported rashes, nosebleeds, severe headaches, difficulty breathing, joint pain, intestinal illnesses, memory loss and more. This is why they are either moving away or drinking from tankers and bottled water as the ground water is contaminated.

I really don't think we can risk this in our heavily-populated island.
Oil & Gas companies have not claimed that prices would reduce in the UK so don't talk nonsense. Environmentalists do not expect old people to have cold homes or that energy prices should be high, so don't tell such blatant lies. We SHOULD create jobs insulating older properties, and Green Councillors persuaded the Council to do some of this in York. This results in lower bills. We SHOULD be investing in renewables like wind, wave, solar and biomass (but not shipping it around the world!) Britain is decades behind Scandinavia and Germany (recently hot a record of 72% of energy generated by renewables) and even Spain where wind power is the largest source of energy! We SHOULD invest in Carbon Capture & Storage technology to improve our coal-fired stations. I never mentioned fracking deaths, but 545 workers died in 4 years in the US frack-fields, and fatal road accidents have rocketed by up to 42% as it requires 2,300 to 4,000 truck trips per well to deliver mixtures of water, sand and chemicals to a drilling site. Health-wise, fracking is causing the deaths of fish and farm animals and people in the vicinity of wells have reported rashes, nosebleeds, severe headaches, difficulty breathing, joint pain, intestinal illnesses, memory loss and more. This is why they are either moving away or drinking from tankers and bottled water as the ground water is contaminated. I really don't think we can risk this in our heavily-populated island. Dave Taylor
  • Score: -7

6:07pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Pinza-C55 says...

ColdAsChristmas wrote:
Come off it Dave, our small islands are being poisoned by an unsustainable and growing population. What are you doing about that?
The truth is we need this energy ever more since your mob has been campaigning to close our coal mines and power stations.
Germany don't need to worry too much about fracking and why should they? They have an endless supply of Putin's Russian gas since Germany started closing down their nuclear generators.
Dave, you are an idealist, rather like Andy D but your ideals won't keep us warm in the Winter or keep what remains of our industry turning!
Absolutely true.
Since having a heated discussion with a "warmer" on these pages I have looked around at a number of eco sites and at least one said that the UK had just over 5 years of oil left.
We have plenty of coal left of course but it is in flooded, concrete capped mines which Kellingley Colliery will shortly join.
Those nice Chinese people will shortly start building us a new nuclear power station at Hinkley but at least they won't be out of pocket because the energy it produces will not have a price ceiling!
I suppose if the worst comes to the worst Lars' mother can knit us all nice thick sweaters for the winter 8-)
[quote][p][bold]ColdAsChristmas[/bold] wrote: Come off it Dave, our small islands are being poisoned by an unsustainable and growing population. What are you doing about that? The truth is we need this energy ever more since your mob has been campaigning to close our coal mines and power stations. Germany don't need to worry too much about fracking and why should they? They have an endless supply of Putin's Russian gas since Germany started closing down their nuclear generators. Dave, you are an idealist, rather like Andy D but your ideals won't keep us warm in the Winter or keep what remains of our industry turning![/p][/quote]Absolutely true. Since having a heated discussion with a "warmer" on these pages I have looked around at a number of eco sites and at least one said that the UK had just over 5 years of oil left. We have plenty of coal left of course but it is in flooded, concrete capped mines which Kellingley Colliery will shortly join. Those nice Chinese people will shortly start building us a new nuclear power station at Hinkley but at least they won't be out of pocket because the energy it produces will not have a price ceiling! I suppose if the worst comes to the worst Lars' mother can knit us all nice thick sweaters for the winter 8-) Pinza-C55
  • Score: 5

6:10pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Pinza-C55 says...

Dave Taylor wrote:
The evidence from the USA is catastrophic. Whole communities are now reduced to having their water delivered in tankers as the aquifer has been polluted with fracking chemicals and radioactive isotopes flushed out of the shale bed. Hundreds of thousands of fish have been killed including 70,000 in one incident in Ohio. Fracking states like Kansas, Ohio and Oklahoma, where seismic activity had generally been infrequent, have seen a sudden increase in earthquakes, and methane is being released indiscriminately into the atmosphere adding to global warming (considerably worse than CO2 in this respect). Germany is right to take a precautionary approach. Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice. We can't afford to poison our small island.
"Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice."
How do you propose "Brits" do that Dave ?
The government and big business (essentially the same thing) want it and we have no power to stop them.
Are you going to start a revolution?
Or have a petition?
[quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: The evidence from the USA is catastrophic. Whole communities are now reduced to having their water delivered in tankers as the aquifer has been polluted with fracking chemicals and radioactive isotopes flushed out of the shale bed. Hundreds of thousands of fish have been killed including 70,000 in one incident in Ohio. Fracking states like Kansas, Ohio and Oklahoma, where seismic activity had generally been infrequent, have seen a sudden increase in earthquakes, and methane is being released indiscriminately into the atmosphere adding to global warming (considerably worse than CO2 in this respect). Germany is right to take a precautionary approach. Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice. We can't afford to poison our small island.[/p][/quote]"Brits should also put a stop to this dangerous practice." How do you propose "Brits" do that Dave ? The government and big business (essentially the same thing) want it and we have no power to stop them. Are you going to start a revolution? Or have a petition? Pinza-C55
  • Score: 5

6:35pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Dave Taylor says...

The Government and Big Business are working hand-in-hand on this, you're right. However, I do think that the public needs to know the facts about how dangerous this would be for human health, as well as farming, animals, fish, and 'the environment' generally.

We can object and we can say 'no'. A Tory Council has become the first to refuse a planning application, and I think more rural Conservatives have to understand the damage that Osborne, Britten, and their chums will do to their green and pleasant land.

http://www.independe
nt.co.uk/environment
/wisborough-green-be
comes-the-first-vill
age-in-britain-to-fi
ght-off-fracking-962
1857.html

Revolution, petition... whatever...
The Government and Big Business are working hand-in-hand on this, you're right. However, I do think that the public needs to know the facts about how dangerous this would be for human health, as well as farming, animals, fish, and 'the environment' generally. We can object and we can say 'no'. A Tory Council has become the first to refuse a planning application, and I think more rural Conservatives have to understand the damage that Osborne, Britten, and their chums will do to their green and pleasant land. http://www.independe nt.co.uk/environment /wisborough-green-be comes-the-first-vill age-in-britain-to-fi ght-off-fracking-962 1857.html Revolution, petition... whatever... Dave Taylor
  • Score: -5

7:08pm Fri 1 Aug 14

gwen4me says...

It would be a simple matter to subsidise energy prices for pensioners.
It would be a simple matter to subsidise energy prices for pensioners. gwen4me
  • Score: 10

9:33pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Go4Micklegate says...

Just to offer some thoughts regarding some questions of one aspect of fracking which is affecting us here in Yorkshire: Water.

1. Gas extraction through fracking is using a huge amount of water
An undeniable fact which also the companies who are doing it agree on. Maybe some of us still remember the the droughts we had in recent years and the prediction that due to the climate change we will have more of them. Who is getting the water resources in dry periods?
2. Which chemicals are mixed into the water that is used for fracking?
In the US there is still a legal battle going on about the disclosure of the chemical mix. Does someone know which chemicals are used? Maybe we can have then a more detailed discussion about it.
3. Is there a recycling or the reuse of the reflux water?
I am not aware that there is already a technology in place to reuse and recycle the fluid that is exiting the borehole after drilling. The liquid contains the used chemicals and toxic substances such as heavy metals from the substrate. Where and how do we store it safely?
4. Do we have sufficient groundwater protection legislation?
I think we all agree that the groundwater protection must be ensured. I do not see yet that the licensed companies have to analyse the condition of the water before a fracking project is approved, monitor the quality and are liable for any pollution.
5. What about an absolute fracking ban near special water sources?
I think fracking should be prohibited in any water protection side, water preserve, protected wetlands, and other sensitive areas such as catchment areas of lakes and reservoirs and nature reserves.

Only the attempt to discuss about arguments and not just exchange polemic. Looking forward to replies.
Just to offer some thoughts regarding some questions of one aspect of fracking which is affecting us here in Yorkshire: Water. 1. Gas extraction through fracking is using a huge amount of water An undeniable fact which also the companies who are doing it agree on. Maybe some of us still remember the the droughts we had in recent years and the prediction that due to the climate change we will have more of them. Who is getting the water resources in dry periods? 2. Which chemicals are mixed into the water that is used for fracking? In the US there is still a legal battle going on about the disclosure of the chemical mix. Does someone know which chemicals are used? Maybe we can have then a more detailed discussion about it. 3. Is there a recycling or the reuse of the reflux water? I am not aware that there is already a technology in place to reuse and recycle the fluid that is exiting the borehole after drilling. The liquid contains the used chemicals and toxic substances such as heavy metals from the substrate. Where and how do we store it safely? 4. Do we have sufficient groundwater protection legislation? I think we all agree that the groundwater protection must be ensured. I do not see yet that the licensed companies have to analyse the condition of the water before a fracking project is approved, monitor the quality and are liable for any pollution. 5. What about an absolute fracking ban near special water sources? I think fracking should be prohibited in any water protection side, water preserve, protected wetlands, and other sensitive areas such as catchment areas of lakes and reservoirs and nature reserves. Only the attempt to discuss about arguments and not just exchange polemic. Looking forward to replies. Go4Micklegate
  • Score: -4

12:28am Sat 2 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Sorry if my last post appears twice. It was acknowledged by the press site but did not appear despite my logging in and out of the site.
Sorry if my last post appears twice. It was acknowledged by the press site but did not appear despite my logging in and out of the site. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: -2

1:17am Sat 2 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Come on Dave Taylor. The Ohio incident you quote appears to have been caused by a fire at the site which caused chemicals to spill into a nearby creek. This could happen at a water treatment plant in the UK does that mean we stop treating water and go down to the river with buckets to get our own?.

On the letter itself. It is notable that the scaremongering minority only point to potential risks. Have a search of the web yourself to see if you can find any actual deaths directly attributable to the Fracking process that are not just claims which come from one of the minority environmentalist web sites. Keep in mind that Fracking has been going on since the 1940s so some official stats should be available.

Now lets have a look at some known risks that affect our citizens in the UK: -
From what I can see we have more than 20,000 actual deaths each year as a result of people being cold during the winter. These deaths are mainly amongst older more venerable people and reports say there is a direct correlation between cold and winter deaths.

I must admit it enrages me to see these scare mongering minority groups trying, and indeed succeeding, in ensuring that the cost of energy is kept high due to their unproven theories which will ensure we keep allowing our pensioners to be killed by cold in their own homes rather than using techniques which have been around since the 1940s to try to alleviate the pressure on fuel prices. What is even worse is that their scaremongering is largely done to dissuade us from the use of fossil fuels. This is their main priority and has been the cause of many thousands of deaths due to the fuel poverty it created in the first place.

So next time you see a bit of this scaremongering theory based propaganda just spare a small thought for the older generation who can no longer afford to heat their homes and who for a fact will killed due to these minority campaigners and there unproven causes.
First of all lets deal with the bit where you accuse me of being a blatant liar. I think you probably got a bit carried away here. The truth often stings a bit and we know how people react when stung – they tend to lash out. Despite my being very angry at the loss of life I see in our older more vulnerable generation caused by them being unable to afford to heat their homes now I shall not resort to name calling or put downs. Point out one actual lie and I will apologise if I was wrong.

You are right the energy companies have not said this will reduce prices, as I did not, and I wonder why? Could it be because the prices will remain high to dissuade us from use to meet carbon emission targets, or to pay for renewable energy (which is simply unaffordable), or to maintain the huge profits being made by energy companies?. I wonder what made the energy companies so sure of raising prices as they did? Could it have been that when Green levies were added there were few complaints as we were told it was for our own good as the world was about to get so hot there would be no water and we would soon become extinct. Did that triggered their confidence to raise prices? Even one of your supporter bragged in this very paper that his protest would help to increase the costs of Fracking which would ensure prices stayed high. I have helped elderly people to get their homes insulated but it has made little difference as prices are rising so fast their bills keep going up anyway.

Environmentalist would not have wanted or even thought about people having cold homes and to die in their thousands because of this but is this an inevitable consequence of years of lobbying and protests and gaining influence with governments which have lead us to huge increases in energy costs resulting in the old and vulnerable being unable to heat their homes?.

I have also seen the reports on people with rashes, nosebleeds, etc. I am also confident that wherever this activity takes place it will be followed by ambulance chasing solicitors who make claims on their behalf. Indeed if you Google to try to find some facts on this you are first presented with a paid find from a solicitors company who will help you with your claim. I see one family in America got 3m dollars compensation. I have seen their happy smiling faces in photographs in the reports. What is the going rate over here for being frozen to death? Paying for your own funeral I would imagine. Not much to smile at here then. As for 545 workers regrettably dying over 4 years in the US, which to your credit you do point out have mainly been through traffic accidents, lets balance that against the “excess deaths”, 107190 in England and Wales alone over the last 4 years. Sorry but something does not add up here.

Typically there are two sides to any argument and I could have been persuaded either way a few years ago. Seeing the facts about how many people are dying in the UK alone (over 100,000 in 4 years) from the effects of being cold and unable to afford to heat their homes, a trend that is increasing rapidly. This is somewhat compelling evidence to me rather than that of being influenced by arguments against Fracking which appear to be largely based on exaggerated perspective risk rather than fact.
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Come on Dave Taylor. The Ohio incident you quote appears to have been caused by a fire at the site which caused chemicals to spill into a nearby creek. This could happen at a water treatment plant in the UK does that mean we stop treating water and go down to the river with buckets to get our own?. On the letter itself. It is notable that the scaremongering minority only point to potential risks. Have a search of the web yourself to see if you can find any actual deaths directly attributable to the Fracking process that are not just claims which come from one of the minority environmentalist web sites. Keep in mind that Fracking has been going on since the 1940s so some official stats should be available. Now lets have a look at some known risks that affect our citizens in the UK: - From what I can see we have more than 20,000 actual deaths each year as a result of people being cold during the winter. These deaths are mainly amongst older more venerable people and reports say there is a direct correlation between cold and winter deaths. I must admit it enrages me to see these scare mongering minority groups trying, and indeed succeeding, in ensuring that the cost of energy is kept high due to their unproven theories which will ensure we keep allowing our pensioners to be killed by cold in their own homes rather than using techniques which have been around since the 1940s to try to alleviate the pressure on fuel prices. What is even worse is that their scaremongering is largely done to dissuade us from the use of fossil fuels. This is their main priority and has been the cause of many thousands of deaths due to the fuel poverty it created in the first place. So next time you see a bit of this scaremongering theory based propaganda just spare a small thought for the older generation who can no longer afford to heat their homes and who for a fact will killed due to these minority campaigners and there unproven causes.[/p][/quote]First of all lets deal with the bit where you accuse me of being a blatant liar. I think you probably got a bit carried away here. The truth often stings a bit and we know how people react when stung – they tend to lash out. Despite my being very angry at the loss of life I see in our older more vulnerable generation caused by them being unable to afford to heat their homes now I shall not resort to name calling or put downs. Point out one actual lie and I will apologise if I was wrong. You are right the energy companies have not said this will reduce prices, as I did not, and I wonder why? Could it be because the prices will remain high to dissuade us from use to meet carbon emission targets, or to pay for renewable energy (which is simply unaffordable), or to maintain the huge profits being made by energy companies?. I wonder what made the energy companies so sure of raising prices as they did? Could it have been that when Green levies were added there were few complaints as we were told it was for our own good as the world was about to get so hot there would be no water and we would soon become extinct. Did that triggered their confidence to raise prices? Even one of your supporter bragged in this very paper that his protest would help to increase the costs of Fracking which would ensure prices stayed high. I have helped elderly people to get their homes insulated but it has made little difference as prices are rising so fast their bills keep going up anyway. Environmentalist would not have wanted or even thought about people having cold homes and to die in their thousands because of this but is this an inevitable consequence of years of lobbying and protests and gaining influence with governments which have lead us to huge increases in energy costs resulting in the old and vulnerable being unable to heat their homes?. I have also seen the reports on people with rashes, nosebleeds, etc. I am also confident that wherever this activity takes place it will be followed by ambulance chasing solicitors who make claims on their behalf. Indeed if you Google to try to find some facts on this you are first presented with a paid find from a solicitors company who will help you with your claim. I see one family in America got 3m dollars compensation. I have seen their happy smiling faces in photographs in the reports. What is the going rate over here for being frozen to death? Paying for your own funeral I would imagine. Not much to smile at here then. As for 545 workers regrettably dying over 4 years in the US, which to your credit you do point out have mainly been through traffic accidents, lets balance that against the “excess deaths”, 107190 in England and Wales alone over the last 4 years. Sorry but something does not add up here. Typically there are two sides to any argument and I could have been persuaded either way a few years ago. Seeing the facts about how many people are dying in the UK alone (over 100,000 in 4 years) from the effects of being cold and unable to afford to heat their homes, a trend that is increasing rapidly. This is somewhat compelling evidence to me rather than that of being influenced by arguments against Fracking which appear to be largely based on exaggerated perspective risk rather than fact. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 3

1:19am Sat 2 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Dave Taylor wrote:
Oil & Gas companies have not claimed that prices would reduce in the UK so don't talk nonsense. Environmentalists do not expect old people to have cold homes or that energy prices should be high, so don't tell such blatant lies.

We SHOULD create jobs insulating older properties, and Green Councillors persuaded the Council to do some of this in York. This results in lower bills.

We SHOULD be investing in renewables like wind, wave, solar and biomass (but not shipping it around the world!) Britain is decades behind Scandinavia and Germany (recently hot a record of 72% of energy generated by renewables) and even Spain where wind power is the largest source of energy!

We SHOULD invest in Carbon Capture & Storage technology to improve our coal-fired stations.

I never mentioned fracking deaths, but 545 workers died in 4 years in the US frack-fields, and fatal road accidents have rocketed by up to 42% as it requires 2,300 to 4,000 truck trips per well to deliver mixtures of water, sand and chemicals to a drilling site. Health-wise, fracking is causing the deaths of fish and farm animals and people in the vicinity of wells have reported rashes, nosebleeds, severe headaches, difficulty breathing, joint pain, intestinal illnesses, memory loss and more. This is why they are either moving away or drinking from tankers and bottled water as the ground water is contaminated.

I really don't think we can risk this in our heavily-populated island.
First of all lets deal with the bit where you accuse me of being a blatant liar. I think you probably got a bit carried away here. The truth often stings a bit and we know how people react when stung – they tend to lash out. Despite my being very angry at the loss of life I see in our older more vulnerable generation caused by them being unable to afford to heat their homes now I shall not resort to name calling or put downs. Point out one actual lie and I will apologise if I was wrong.

You are right the energy companies have not said this will reduce prices, as I did not, and I wonder why? Could it be because the prices will remain high to dissuade us from use to meet carbon emission targets, or to pay for renewable energy (which is simply unaffordable), or to maintain the huge profits being made by energy companies?. I wonder what made the energy companies so sure of raising prices as they did? Could it have been that when Green levies were added there were few complaints as we were told it was for our own good as the world was about to get so hot there would be no water and we would soon become extinct. Did that triggered their confidence to raise prices? Even one of your supporter bragged in this very paper that his protest would help to increase the costs of Fracking which would ensure prices stayed high. I have helped elderly people to get their homes insulated but it has made little difference as prices are rising so fast their bills keep going up anyway.

Environmentalist would not have wanted or even thought about people having cold homes and to die in their thousands because of this but is this an inevitable consequence of years of lobbying and protests and gaining influence with governments which have lead us to huge increases in energy costs resulting in the old and vulnerable being unable to heat their homes?.

I have also seen the reports on people with rashes, nosebleeds, etc. I am also confident that wherever this activity takes place it will be followed by ambulance chasing solicitors who make claims on their behalf. Indeed if you Google to try to find some facts on this you are first presented with a paid find from a solicitors company who will help you with your claim. I see one family in America got 3m dollars compensation. I have seen their happy smiling faces in photographs in the reports. What is the going rate over here for being frozen to death? Paying for your own funeral I would imagine. Not much to smile at here then. As for 545 workers regrettably dying over 4 years in the US, which to your credit you do point out have mainly been through traffic accidents, lets balance that against the “excess deaths”, 107190 in England and Wales alone over the last 4 years. Sorry but something does not add up here.

Typically there are two sides to any argument and I could have been persuaded either way a few years ago. Seeing the facts about how many people are dying in the UK alone (over 100,000 in 4 years) from the effects of being cold and unable to afford to heat their homes, a trend that is increasing rapidly. This is somewhat compelling evidence to me rather than that of being influenced by arguments against Fracking which appear to be largely based on exaggerated perspective risk rather than fact.
[quote][p][bold]Dave Taylor[/bold] wrote: Oil & Gas companies have not claimed that prices would reduce in the UK so don't talk nonsense. Environmentalists do not expect old people to have cold homes or that energy prices should be high, so don't tell such blatant lies. We SHOULD create jobs insulating older properties, and Green Councillors persuaded the Council to do some of this in York. This results in lower bills. We SHOULD be investing in renewables like wind, wave, solar and biomass (but not shipping it around the world!) Britain is decades behind Scandinavia and Germany (recently hot a record of 72% of energy generated by renewables) and even Spain where wind power is the largest source of energy! We SHOULD invest in Carbon Capture & Storage technology to improve our coal-fired stations. I never mentioned fracking deaths, but 545 workers died in 4 years in the US frack-fields, and fatal road accidents have rocketed by up to 42% as it requires 2,300 to 4,000 truck trips per well to deliver mixtures of water, sand and chemicals to a drilling site. Health-wise, fracking is causing the deaths of fish and farm animals and people in the vicinity of wells have reported rashes, nosebleeds, severe headaches, difficulty breathing, joint pain, intestinal illnesses, memory loss and more. This is why they are either moving away or drinking from tankers and bottled water as the ground water is contaminated. I really don't think we can risk this in our heavily-populated island.[/p][/quote]First of all lets deal with the bit where you accuse me of being a blatant liar. I think you probably got a bit carried away here. The truth often stings a bit and we know how people react when stung – they tend to lash out. Despite my being very angry at the loss of life I see in our older more vulnerable generation caused by them being unable to afford to heat their homes now I shall not resort to name calling or put downs. Point out one actual lie and I will apologise if I was wrong. You are right the energy companies have not said this will reduce prices, as I did not, and I wonder why? Could it be because the prices will remain high to dissuade us from use to meet carbon emission targets, or to pay for renewable energy (which is simply unaffordable), or to maintain the huge profits being made by energy companies?. I wonder what made the energy companies so sure of raising prices as they did? Could it have been that when Green levies were added there were few complaints as we were told it was for our own good as the world was about to get so hot there would be no water and we would soon become extinct. Did that triggered their confidence to raise prices? Even one of your supporter bragged in this very paper that his protest would help to increase the costs of Fracking which would ensure prices stayed high. I have helped elderly people to get their homes insulated but it has made little difference as prices are rising so fast their bills keep going up anyway. Environmentalist would not have wanted or even thought about people having cold homes and to die in their thousands because of this but is this an inevitable consequence of years of lobbying and protests and gaining influence with governments which have lead us to huge increases in energy costs resulting in the old and vulnerable being unable to heat their homes?. I have also seen the reports on people with rashes, nosebleeds, etc. I am also confident that wherever this activity takes place it will be followed by ambulance chasing solicitors who make claims on their behalf. Indeed if you Google to try to find some facts on this you are first presented with a paid find from a solicitors company who will help you with your claim. I see one family in America got 3m dollars compensation. I have seen their happy smiling faces in photographs in the reports. What is the going rate over here for being frozen to death? Paying for your own funeral I would imagine. Not much to smile at here then. As for 545 workers regrettably dying over 4 years in the US, which to your credit you do point out have mainly been through traffic accidents, lets balance that against the “excess deaths”, 107190 in England and Wales alone over the last 4 years. Sorry but something does not add up here. Typically there are two sides to any argument and I could have been persuaded either way a few years ago. Seeing the facts about how many people are dying in the UK alone (over 100,000 in 4 years) from the effects of being cold and unable to afford to heat their homes, a trend that is increasing rapidly. This is somewhat compelling evidence to me rather than that of being influenced by arguments against Fracking which appear to be largely based on exaggerated perspective risk rather than fact. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 3

1:21am Sat 2 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Sorry about the mess above in my attempting to quote Dave. It would seem if you put a dollar sign in your text it will not be accepted.
Sorry about the mess above in my attempting to quote Dave. It would seem if you put a dollar sign in your text it will not be accepted. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 4

10:21am Sun 3 Aug 14

bonobo says...

Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange !
Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange ! bonobo
  • Score: -6

9:45pm Sun 3 Aug 14

strangebuttrue? says...

bonobo wrote:
Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange !
Oh well that's it then. The sheer force of your argument convinces me we should ignore the facts about our elderly population just as it seems our Green friends have been all along. After all if you ignore it it is not happening is it?.
[quote][p][bold]bonobo[/bold] wrote: Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange ![/p][/quote]Oh well that's it then. The sheer force of your argument convinces me we should ignore the facts about our elderly population just as it seems our Green friends have been all along. After all if you ignore it it is not happening is it?. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 5

1:16am Mon 4 Aug 14

ColdAsChristmas says...

bonobo wrote:
Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange !
Not strange at all, have you seen the subsidies on renewable energy and the tariffs on non renewables?
[quote][p][bold]bonobo[/bold] wrote: Bloody greens !!!.....its funny how the cheapest electricity tariff available in this country is provided by an green energy provider ....100% renewable .....strange ![/p][/quote]Not strange at all, have you seen the subsidies on renewable energy and the tariffs on non renewables? ColdAsChristmas
  • Score: 4

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