Bridge divide

Bridge divide

Bridge divide

First published in Letters by

I HAVE read the responses to my support (Letters, February 20) for the Lendal Bridge restrictions (it is wrong to call it a bridge closure).

Most follow the easy fallacy that there is a massive divide between cyclists and users of motor transport. Virtually every adult in York is either a cyclist or has a close family member who cycles: and virtually all use motor transport, too.

The supposed divide exists mostly in the letters page of The Press. It is not helpful to make Lendal Bridge into a cars-versus-bikes argument. Many correspondents put words in my mouth and then attacked what I have not actually said. It is also interesting that the online version of the letters page shows support for my views vastly outnumbering the critics. By the way, none of the anti-cyclist correspondents seem to have noticed that I did not mention cycling anywhere in my letter.

Jim McGurn, Get Cycling CiC, Hospital Fields Road, York.

Comments (20)

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11:03am Tue 25 Feb 14

pedalling paul says...

Pages 6 & 7 of today's "Press" have the first part of a two day debate on the bridge. Today the pro-closure lobby has its say. Presumably tomorrow will be for the anti-closure lobby.

I can't find the web version of this article (is there one?) but one very interesting group of statistics emerged in the printed version.

These are that, pre trial...............
......
38% of the total people crossing between 10.30 and 17.00 were pedestrians. Just over 9,700 of them
In the same time, 349 buses carried over 8,700 passengers.

But it took 3,345 cars to carry just over 5,000 people across. That's 70% single occupancy. And cars represented some 70% of vehicles crossing, but only carried 19% of the people who crossed.

In space terms, a sole car driver takes up 8 sq metres when bumper to bumper and stationary. That increases with the safety gaps required when driving, reaching 30 sq metres at 20 mph and 60 sq metres at 30 mph.
By contrast, a pedestrian occupies 1 sq. metre, a cyclist 2 sq. metres. A bus takes 32 sq. metres but can accommodate upwards of 90 passengers in the same space as four cars.

So it seems that we are now giving priority to the most efficient users of road capacity, and giving taxis and essential servicing vehicles a much better journey.

I'm sure that tomorrow will bring some interesting ripostes, that will try to equate private car access with economic and commercial success. But sadly the motoring paradise that some promise to deliver, will never be achieved.
Pages 6 & 7 of today's "Press" have the first part of a two day debate on the bridge. Today the pro-closure lobby has its say. Presumably tomorrow will be for the anti-closure lobby. I can't find the web version of this article (is there one?) but one very interesting group of statistics emerged in the printed version. These are that, pre trial............... ...... 38% of the total people crossing between 10.30 and 17.00 were pedestrians. Just over 9,700 of them In the same time, 349 buses carried over 8,700 passengers. But it took 3,345 cars to carry just over 5,000 people across. That's 70% single occupancy. And cars represented some 70% of vehicles crossing, but only carried 19% of the people who crossed. In space terms, a sole car driver takes up 8 sq metres when bumper to bumper and stationary. That increases with the safety gaps required when driving, reaching 30 sq metres at 20 mph and 60 sq metres at 30 mph. By contrast, a pedestrian occupies 1 sq. metre, a cyclist 2 sq. metres. A bus takes 32 sq. metres but can accommodate upwards of 90 passengers in the same space as four cars. So it seems that we are now giving priority to the most efficient users of road capacity, and giving taxis and essential servicing vehicles a much better journey. I'm sure that tomorrow will bring some interesting ripostes, that will try to equate private car access with economic and commercial success. But sadly the motoring paradise that some promise to deliver, will never be achieved. pedalling paul
  • Score: -13

11:07am Tue 25 Feb 14

joewatt says...

I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.
I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems. joewatt
  • Score: -11

11:08am Tue 25 Feb 14

bolero says...

Jim McGurn may not specifically mention cyclists but I think that we have learned by now to `read between the lines` as they say.
Jim McGurn may not specifically mention cyclists but I think that we have learned by now to `read between the lines` as they say. bolero
  • Score: 11

11:17am Tue 25 Feb 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat.

Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level.

The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.
Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat. Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level. The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 13

11:30am Tue 25 Feb 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Sorry Jim forgot to address your points.

The divide between cyclist and car users is being created by the anti car policies of this council which is a shame. When cyclist are used at every opportunity to constrict the flow of other vehicles it does follow that some motorist may become a little upset by them especially when having been given priority some then go on to ignore traffic signals. Also PP does not help this situation.

It may be you advert for your cycling business at the end of most of your letters which has made most think that cycling is the main theme of your letters.
Sorry Jim forgot to address your points. The divide between cyclist and car users is being created by the anti car policies of this council which is a shame. When cyclist are used at every opportunity to constrict the flow of other vehicles it does follow that some motorist may become a little upset by them especially when having been given priority some then go on to ignore traffic signals. Also PP does not help this situation. It may be you advert for your cycling business at the end of most of your letters which has made most think that cycling is the main theme of your letters. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 12

11:38am Tue 25 Feb 14

strangebuttrue? says...

joewatt wrote:
I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.
At risk of repeating myself: -

Here is an alternative for you. The council say volume of traffic in York is now less than it was in 2002 and since 2006 pollution has risen by up to 80%. Now correct me if I am wrong but was it not about 2006 that the council started with all this "nudging" (bullying) or as Mr Merrett put it "constraining". Now putting 2 and 2 together I would suggest we look at all of the anti car schemes put in since 2006 and take them out again, Lendal Bridge included. We did not need them to reduce the volume of traffic between 2002 and 2006 when traffic volumes decreased so why do we need them now?
[quote][p][bold]joewatt[/bold] wrote: I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.[/p][/quote]At risk of repeating myself: - Here is an alternative for you. The council say volume of traffic in York is now less than it was in 2002 and since 2006 pollution has risen by up to 80%. Now correct me if I am wrong but was it not about 2006 that the council started with all this "nudging" (bullying) or as Mr Merrett put it "constraining". Now putting 2 and 2 together I would suggest we look at all of the anti car schemes put in since 2006 and take them out again, Lendal Bridge included. We did not need them to reduce the volume of traffic between 2002 and 2006 when traffic volumes decreased so why do we need them now? strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 9

11:39am Tue 25 Feb 14

strangebuttrue? says...

Sorry meant 48% increase in pollution. getting my numbers mixed up with those against the closure that is 80%.
Sorry meant 48% increase in pollution. getting my numbers mixed up with those against the closure that is 80%. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 5

11:42am Tue 25 Feb 14

pedalling paul says...

Good news...the Lendal Bridge feature has now appeared on the main news website. Let's all dash across to that page and reignite the flames. Me first!!
Good news...the Lendal Bridge feature has now appeared on the main news website. Let's all dash across to that page and reignite the flames. Me first!! pedalling paul
  • Score: -21

1:25pm Tue 25 Feb 14

ColdAsChristmas says...

On Friday, I expect Jonthan to apologise for getting it wrong. The restrictions on the bridge will remain in place!
On Friday, I expect Jonthan to apologise for getting it wrong. The restrictions on the bridge will remain in place! ColdAsChristmas
  • Score: 9

1:57pm Tue 25 Feb 14

inthesticks says...

joewatt wrote:
I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.
I`m alright Jack! (or Joe)
"do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? "
Do you think it`s OK for the diverted traffic to be bumper to bumper on Leeman Rd, Rawcliffe and A1237 between Clifton Moor and Poppleton then?
Restrict it by all means but put alternatives in place first.
Personally, when you walk across mid day it`s not much better than it ever was, loads of taxis - mainly empty, loads of buses and still a lot of private cars. How does that make it a better experience for people on the footpath? I just don`t get it. The whole thing makes it worse for working people trying to get home on other routes and because of the back log from 5:30pm it has a knock on effect until at least 7pm. York council tax payers who don`t want the bridge closed. I have not met one person in the last 6 months + who thinks it is a good idea - not one.
[quote][p][bold]joewatt[/bold] wrote: I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.[/p][/quote]I`m alright Jack! (or Joe) "do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? " Do you think it`s OK for the diverted traffic to be bumper to bumper on Leeman Rd, Rawcliffe and A1237 between Clifton Moor and Poppleton then? Restrict it by all means but put alternatives in place first. Personally, when you walk across mid day it`s not much better than it ever was, loads of taxis - mainly empty, loads of buses and still a lot of private cars. How does that make it a better experience for people on the footpath? I just don`t get it. The whole thing makes it worse for working people trying to get home on other routes and because of the back log from 5:30pm it has a knock on effect until at least 7pm. York council tax payers who don`t want the bridge closed. I have not met one person in the last 6 months + who thinks it is a good idea - not one. inthesticks
  • Score: 19

2:31pm Tue 25 Feb 14

AnotherPointofView says...

Mr McGurn, you state that the online version of the letters page shows support for your views. Either you are blind or you are quoting the +ve and -ve thumbs up/down markers.

It's been obvious to everyone else who reads these online pages that there is a hacker who has been fixing these voting figures for a few months now in favour of the council's policies. If you think that the majority of readers support your views, you are sadly mistaken.

The point you make that I agree with is that a large number of people are motorists AND cyclists. It is trolls like Peddling Paul who gets up the noses of the motorists who then respond which gives the impression that so many are anti-cycling.
Mr McGurn, you state that the online version of the letters page shows support for your views. Either you are blind or you are quoting the +ve and -ve thumbs up/down markers. It's been obvious to everyone else who reads these online pages that there is a hacker who has been fixing these voting figures for a few months now in favour of the council's policies. If you think that the majority of readers support your views, you are sadly mistaken. The point you make that I agree with is that a large number of people are motorists AND cyclists. It is trolls like Peddling Paul who gets up the noses of the motorists who then respond which gives the impression that so many are anti-cycling. AnotherPointofView
  • Score: 21

3:39pm Tue 25 Feb 14

bolero says...

AnotherPointofView wrote:
Mr McGurn, you state that the online version of the letters page shows support for your views. Either you are blind or you are quoting the +ve and -ve thumbs up/down markers.

It's been obvious to everyone else who reads these online pages that there is a hacker who has been fixing these voting figures for a few months now in favour of the council's policies. If you think that the majority of readers support your views, you are sadly mistaken.

The point you make that I agree with is that a large number of people are motorists AND cyclists. It is trolls like Peddling Paul who gets up the noses of the motorists who then respond which gives the impression that so many are anti-cycling.
Yes, Peddling Paul is the cyclists worst enemy but he hasn't got the sense to see it or perhaps he has but he just has to have his pennyworth because he has no interest in any other subject in his own small world.
[quote][p][bold]AnotherPointofView[/bold] wrote: Mr McGurn, you state that the online version of the letters page shows support for your views. Either you are blind or you are quoting the +ve and -ve thumbs up/down markers. It's been obvious to everyone else who reads these online pages that there is a hacker who has been fixing these voting figures for a few months now in favour of the council's policies. If you think that the majority of readers support your views, you are sadly mistaken. The point you make that I agree with is that a large number of people are motorists AND cyclists. It is trolls like Peddling Paul who gets up the noses of the motorists who then respond which gives the impression that so many are anti-cycling.[/p][/quote]Yes, Peddling Paul is the cyclists worst enemy but he hasn't got the sense to see it or perhaps he has but he just has to have his pennyworth because he has no interest in any other subject in his own small world. bolero
  • Score: 15

7:23pm Tue 25 Feb 14

Silver says...

joewatt wrote:
I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.
In all fairness Joewatt you are a councillor so it may seem you are biased even if you are a Conservative and if you're cycling from Skelton to York I'll salute you for your healthy amount of cycling but travelling times into the city have not been improved to my own perception and I find it myself a lot longer to go and do my grocery shopping now.
[quote][p][bold]joewatt[/bold] wrote: I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.[/p][/quote]In all fairness Joewatt you are a councillor so it may seem you are biased even if you are a Conservative and if you're cycling from Skelton to York I'll salute you for your healthy amount of cycling but travelling times into the city have not been improved to my own perception and I find it myself a lot longer to go and do my grocery shopping now. Silver
  • Score: 8

10:02pm Tue 25 Feb 14

York Urban says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat.

Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level.

The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.
Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year.
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat. Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level. The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.[/p][/quote]Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year. York Urban
  • Score: 0

11:17pm Tue 25 Feb 14

strangebuttrue? says...

York Urban wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat.

Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level.

The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.
Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year.
To answer your first question - No

Your second. Quite reliable. It is completely random as I seldom drive at the same time of day every day. I use different routes and have been doing it since the bridge closed - some would say this is how statistics should be gathered. As for "off peak" well I am being honest and not hiding anything or misleading people but as I say off peak is the majority of the day. During peak it is usually better say 60% full but this is only for a short period at each end of the day. And what about all of those university buses!! Do we have any students they always seem to be empty? Who is paying for that?

Your third point. No I wont be concerned as electric buses will help reduce pollution. However this pollution reduction will be offset by the additional pollution that will be caused as these extra buses, I am thinking A59 P&R, run up and down Boroughbridge Road all day mainly empty I would suggest "off peak" triggering bus gates and stopping the rest of the nation moving then having to get going again using about 400% more fuel in the process.
Electric bus or not they still cause pollution because of the way the council uses them to constrain other traffic.
[quote][p][bold]York Urban[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat. Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level. The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.[/p][/quote]Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year.[/p][/quote]To answer your first question - No Your second. Quite reliable. It is completely random as I seldom drive at the same time of day every day. I use different routes and have been doing it since the bridge closed - some would say this is how statistics should be gathered. As for "off peak" well I am being honest and not hiding anything or misleading people but as I say off peak is the majority of the day. During peak it is usually better say 60% full but this is only for a short period at each end of the day. And what about all of those university buses!! Do we have any students they always seem to be empty? Who is paying for that? Your third point. No I wont be concerned as electric buses will help reduce pollution. However this pollution reduction will be offset by the additional pollution that will be caused as these extra buses, I am thinking A59 P&R, run up and down Boroughbridge Road all day mainly empty I would suggest "off peak" triggering bus gates and stopping the rest of the nation moving then having to get going again using about 400% more fuel in the process. Electric bus or not they still cause pollution because of the way the council uses them to constrain other traffic. strangebuttrue?
  • Score: 3

8:47am Wed 26 Feb 14

Starboard22 says...

I'm sure the 40,000+ motorists like myself don't give a toss whether Lendal Bridge has restricted access or not. That is for the people of York to decide. What the problem is, is signage and information. The signage before mid December 2013 was both confusing and illegal, hence the number of successful appeals. First offenders should have received a caution as many of us were from other parts of the country and indeed the world. Thousands of us who will not return to York will make no difference to the retail trade, you will still have enough visitors putting cash through the tills. Please York next time you play a prank like this, and I'm sure you will after having made such a killing please do it right or not at all.
I'm sure the 40,000+ motorists like myself don't give a toss whether Lendal Bridge has restricted access or not. That is for the people of York to decide. What the problem is, is signage and information. The signage before mid December 2013 was both confusing and illegal, hence the number of successful appeals. First offenders should have received a caution as many of us were from other parts of the country and indeed the world. Thousands of us who will not return to York will make no difference to the retail trade, you will still have enough visitors putting cash through the tills. Please York next time you play a prank like this, and I'm sure you will after having made such a killing please do it right or not at all. Starboard22
  • Score: 3

9:34pm Wed 26 Feb 14

Bo Jolly says...

Did Mr McGurn really just appeal to the nightly-hacked comment voting system to claim that people supported his views?!

Mr McGurn, you must surely realise that the comment voting has been 'adjusted' by a hacker every night since last December to create pretend support for the bridge closure, for 20mph zones etc.

Unfortunately for the anti-car campaigners, whenever a non-hackable system is in place the results don't go their way. Like the poll in the Press two weeks ago that showed 82% want Lendal Bridge re-opened, or the council's own consultation over blanket 20mph zones in West York in which 7 (yes, *seven*) people out of 13,000 households supported the zones. Of course the response to the latter of the tiny -but disproportionately powerful- 20s Plenty campaign was to demand an end to public consultations...
Did Mr McGurn really just appeal to the nightly-hacked comment voting system to claim that people supported his views?! Mr McGurn, you must surely realise that the comment voting has been 'adjusted' by a hacker every night since last December to create pretend support for the bridge closure, for 20mph zones etc. Unfortunately for the anti-car campaigners, whenever a non-hackable system is in place the results don't go their way. Like the poll in the Press two weeks ago that showed 82% want Lendal Bridge re-opened, or the council's own consultation over blanket 20mph zones in West York in which 7 (yes, *seven*) people out of 13,000 households supported the zones. Of course the response to the latter of the tiny -but disproportionately powerful- 20s Plenty campaign was to demand an end to public consultations... Bo Jolly
  • Score: 2

11:35pm Wed 26 Feb 14

Magicman! says...

strangebuttrue? wrote:
Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat.

Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level.

The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.
where the hell do you get these figures from? do you actually sit on the roadside (possibly in a red and white tent) and count people on buses, or do you randomly pick a number that favours your argument??
[quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat. Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level. The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.[/p][/quote]where the hell do you get these figures from? do you actually sit on the roadside (possibly in a red and white tent) and count people on buses, or do you randomly pick a number that favours your argument?? Magicman!
  • Score: 0

11:40pm Wed 26 Feb 14

Magicman! says...

York Urban wrote:
strangebuttrue? wrote:
Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat.

Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level.

The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.
Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year.
Quick correction - York already IS using electric buses, there is a pink and yellow one going around the university at the moment - and there's several photos online of it too (Transdev's 998).

The 6 electric buses First has will go on their assigned route in July unless the P&R site opens sooner, however they may see use for driver training on other routes too before then. And York alreayd has 1 of 5 Hybrid double deckers ready for service which are replacing buses bought in 2001.

strangebuttrue has admitted in another article's comments that he does not use the bus in York, and yet he seems to believe he is the font of all knoweledge regarding them - bizarre!
[quote][p][bold]York Urban[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]strangebuttrue?[/bold] wrote: Sorry Paul but all that space and road capacity nonsense just falls apart when you look at the space taken up on roads by seldom used bus and cycle lanes which cars cannot use. Add that into the equation and you may find the balance tips somewhat. Also buses do about 6 mpg so need, at a conservative estimate, to have about 6 passengers on board before they become less polluting. Have a count of passenger numbers in York off peak which is the majority of the day and you may notice that buses just about, if I am being generous, match cars on a pollution level. The council reports also say that buses are one of the main reasons York has missed it's pollution targets.[/p][/quote]Do you actually use the buses? If not, how reliable is your aneodotal metric? And just counting off peak buses I see? You will obviously be concerned when the bus companies start introducing electric buses - which will start this year.[/p][/quote]Quick correction - York already IS using electric buses, there is a pink and yellow one going around the university at the moment - and there's several photos online of it too (Transdev's 998). The 6 electric buses First has will go on their assigned route in July unless the P&R site opens sooner, however they may see use for driver training on other routes too before then. And York alreayd has 1 of 5 Hybrid double deckers ready for service which are replacing buses bought in 2001. strangebuttrue has admitted in another article's comments that he does not use the bus in York, and yet he seems to believe he is the font of all knoweledge regarding them - bizarre! Magicman!
  • Score: 2

11:03pm Thu 27 Feb 14

Silver says...

Silver wrote:
joewatt wrote:
I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.
In all fairness Joewatt you are a councillor so it may seem you are biased even if you are a Conservative and if you're cycling from Skelton to York I'll salute you for your healthy amount of cycling but travelling times into the city have not been improved to my own perception and I find it myself a lot longer to go and do my grocery shopping now.
Having no reply I'm going to ask the question, part of the closure's reasons were for reducing pollution which did not occur. Also to ease traffic BBC's Look North said ask that of the people on Leeman Road and Bootham the answer was not satisfactory. WHAT DO THE OTHER PARTIES OFFER? Answers on a post card please.
[quote][p][bold]Silver[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]joewatt[/bold] wrote: I cycle, I drive, I fly, I sail, I walk, I use the Train and I use the Bus. It is challenging getting to West offices on my bike when the Bridge is open; a joy to be on it when it is restricted. Travelling times by car into the City Centre have improved when the restriction is in force. The congestion at Clifton Green is no different to what it was prior to the trial. That could be relieved by reducing the cycle lane further. I fail to see what everyone is moaning about - do we really want bumper to bumper traffic all day on Lendal Bridge? What vision do those who want it unrestricted have? Please tell us, what is their solution to York's traffic problems.[/p][/quote]In all fairness Joewatt you are a councillor so it may seem you are biased even if you are a Conservative and if you're cycling from Skelton to York I'll salute you for your healthy amount of cycling but travelling times into the city have not been improved to my own perception and I find it myself a lot longer to go and do my grocery shopping now.[/p][/quote]Having no reply I'm going to ask the question, part of the closure's reasons were for reducing pollution which did not occur. Also to ease traffic BBC's Look North said ask that of the people on Leeman Road and Bootham the answer was not satisfactory. WHAT DO THE OTHER PARTIES OFFER? Answers on a post card please. Silver
  • Score: 0

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