Different energies and different costs

IN NORTH DAKOTA they’re having a right old punch-up about fracking and water.

At the confluence of the Missouri river and the Ohio, river depth is between four and seven metres below normal as the state’s politicians divert hundreds of millions of gallons of water to oil fracking companies.

It is expected the river will have to close for two months in order to feed the fracking companies’ thirst. Apart from the devastating impact on wildlife and wild plants, a closure will cause major headaches for those who are used to shipping $7 billion of products along this stretch of river.

There is also the issue of the pollution and destruction that occurs as countryside is turned into an industrial landscape.

All this is happening in a state roughly the same size as the UK but with a population of only 600,000, while we have more than 60 million.

I can only imagine the noise and protest in the shires once it becomes clear how fracking, with its huge reservoirs of polluted water, will impact on the countryside.

Rows of graceful, non-polluting wind turbines and the replacement of our existing nuclear power stations may, on reflection, appear far more appealing than fracking.

Christian Vassie, Blake Court, Wheldrake, York.

 

• I AM happy to agree to differ with Philip Roe (Letters, December 13) about the merits of the respective appearance of wind turbines and nuclear power stations, and I fully respect his opinions on this point.

My main concern, which the shortening of my published letter obscured, is that decisions about sustainable energy supplies in the face of global warming are too important to be made on the basis of aesthetic judgments alone, whether mine, Mr Roe’s, or anyone’s.

More serious is Mr Roe’s refusal to accept that man-made climate change is occurring. Yes, cyclical natural climate change also happens, but there is overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity has contributed to rapid global warming in recent decades.

This warming has resulted in climate instability whose effects are being seen worldwide in different ways – including this year’s washout summer in Britain.

Mark Gladwin, Huntington Road, York.

Comments (18)

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9:11am Sat 15 Dec 12

capt spaulding says...

Ah yes Mr Vassie predictable as ever going for the green line tree hugger vote.
Ah yes Mr Vassie predictable as ever going for the green line tree hugger vote. capt spaulding

10:14am Sat 15 Dec 12

jorvik says...

More serious is Mr Roe’s refusal to accept that man-made climate change is occurring. Yes, cyclical natural climate change also happens, but there is overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity has contributed to rapid global warming in recent decades.

This warming has resulted in climate instability whose effects are being seen worldwide in different ways – including this year’s washout summer in Britain.

Mark Gladwin, Huntington Road, York.



What a load of utter nonsense
More serious is Mr Roe’s refusal to accept that man-made climate change is occurring. Yes, cyclical natural climate change also happens, but there is overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity has contributed to rapid global warming in recent decades. This warming has resulted in climate instability whose effects are being seen worldwide in different ways – including this year’s washout summer in Britain. Mark Gladwin, Huntington Road, York. What a load of utter nonsense jorvik

10:36am Sat 15 Dec 12

The Great Buda says...

I see the flat-earthers are out in force today.
I see the flat-earthers are out in force today. The Great Buda

10:49am Sat 15 Dec 12

jorvik says...

The Great Buda wrote:
I see the flat-earthers are out in force today.
Your up early dole boy
[quote][p][bold]The Great Buda[/bold] wrote: I see the flat-earthers are out in force today.[/p][/quote]Your up early dole boy jorvik

11:15am Sat 15 Dec 12

Buzz Light-year says...

jorvik wrote:
More serious is Mr Roe’s refusal to accept that man-made climate change is occurring. Yes, cyclical natural climate change also happens, but there is overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity has contributed to rapid global warming in recent decades.

This warming has resulted in climate instability whose effects are being seen worldwide in different ways – including this year’s washout summer in Britain.

Mark Gladwin, Huntington Road, York.



What a load of utter nonsense
Square bracket then the word quote then another square bracket.
Then paste your quote.
Then square bracket /quote then square bracket.

Or just some ""
[quote][p][bold]jorvik[/bold] wrote: More serious is Mr Roe’s refusal to accept that man-made climate change is occurring. Yes, cyclical natural climate change also happens, but there is overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity has contributed to rapid global warming in recent decades. This warming has resulted in climate instability whose effects are being seen worldwide in different ways – including this year’s washout summer in Britain. Mark Gladwin, Huntington Road, York. What a load of utter nonsense[/p][/quote]Square bracket then the word quote then another square bracket. Then paste your quote. Then square bracket /quote then square bracket. Or just some "" Buzz Light-year

11:54am Sat 15 Dec 12

Matt_S says...

It's becoming clear to me that the people of Britain reject nuclear, wind, coal, gas, tidal, hydroelectric and solar.

I can only conclude that, in fact, we hate electricity.
It's becoming clear to me that the people of Britain reject nuclear, wind, coal, gas, tidal, hydroelectric and solar. I can only conclude that, in fact, we hate electricity. Matt_S

1:02pm Sat 15 Dec 12

YSTClinguist says...

I had read the other day that green projects were going to add £100 per annum to our bills over the next decade, but that the increases in the price of importing natural gas are likely to increase to £600 per annum unless fracking on our own soil discovers enough natural gas to fulfil our needs without haven't to import that expensive gas. The government are therefore taking the gamble on fracking that they find that volume of gas, whilst of course some say that the risk to countryside (disruption/pollutio
n) and homes (earthquakes) is small but present.

As a gamble, using that argument, it makes sense to go with green projects. However, wind turbines and solar panels, sea snakes and other tidal power projects don't create natural gas supplies. Are we to shift from gas cookers and gas central heating to fully electric homes? (my home is such, but I'm thinking of the rest of UK households here) I surmise that the cost of replacing these household systems/appliances is going to be a tad expensive.

ps. Battery cars, how does anyone think we're going to be able to recharge everyones batteries without building an extra 40 new nuke stations on top of the 4-5 we already need just to keep up on increasing consumption as we expand as a society?
I had read the other day that green projects were going to add £100 per annum to our bills over the next decade, but that the increases in the price of importing natural gas are likely to increase to £600 per annum unless fracking on our own soil discovers enough natural gas to fulfil our needs without haven't to import that expensive gas. The government are therefore taking the gamble on fracking that they find that volume of gas, whilst of course some say that the risk to countryside (disruption/pollutio n) and homes (earthquakes) is small but present. As a gamble, using that argument, it makes sense to go with green projects. However, wind turbines and solar panels, sea snakes and other tidal power projects don't create natural gas supplies. Are we to shift from gas cookers and gas central heating to fully electric homes? (my home is such, but I'm thinking of the rest of UK households here) I surmise that the cost of replacing these household systems/appliances is going to be a tad expensive. ps. Battery cars, how does anyone think we're going to be able to recharge everyones batteries without building an extra 40 new nuke stations on top of the 4-5 we already need just to keep up on increasing consumption as we expand as a society? YSTClinguist

4:06pm Sat 15 Dec 12

Sillybillies says...

Bring on the fracking -
WASHINGTON DC — The Institute for Energy Research, in a joint venture with The Heritage Foundation, released today a video telling the story of economic freedom, energy abundance, and job creation that are happening in North Dakota’s oil-rich Bakken shale formation. “A Fracking Miracle” provides first-person narratives of lives transformed, record employment, and economies bolstered by sensible state regulation, private land ownership, and safe drilling technologies.

“North Dakota is one of the nation’s most remarkable success stories — where free markets and American entrepreneurship are working together to create an economic miracle. The rising tide of robust energy development made possible by sensible regulation and private land ownership is truly lifting all boats — from farmers who were facing bankruptcy to unemployed machinists who are back catching up on their bills,” IER President Thomas Pyle noted.

“From all across the country, people are moving to North Dakota to find work and get a new start on life. Yet Washington is trying to limit hydraulic fracturing and stop the economic boom in North Dakota and other energy-rich parts of the country. From the Environmental Protection Agency to the Department of Interior, regulators are working overtime to close the pages on these success stories. ‘The Fracking Miracle’ explains why these regulators must be stopped to secure America’s private sector job creation, economic prosperity, and energy future.”
Bring on the fracking - [quote]WASHINGTON DC — The Institute for Energy Research, in a joint venture with The Heritage Foundation, released today a video telling the story of economic freedom, energy abundance, and job creation that are happening in North Dakota’s oil-rich Bakken shale formation. “A Fracking Miracle” provides first-person narratives of lives transformed, record employment, and economies bolstered by sensible state regulation, private land ownership, and safe drilling technologies. “North Dakota is one of the nation’s most remarkable success stories — where free markets and American entrepreneurship are working together to create an economic miracle. The rising tide of robust energy development made possible by sensible regulation and private land ownership is truly lifting all boats — from farmers who were facing bankruptcy to unemployed machinists who are back catching up on their bills,” IER President Thomas Pyle noted. “From all across the country, people are moving to North Dakota to find work and get a new start on life. Yet Washington is trying to limit hydraulic fracturing and stop the economic boom in North Dakota and other energy-rich parts of the country. From the Environmental Protection Agency to the Department of Interior, regulators are working overtime to close the pages on these success stories. ‘The Fracking Miracle’ explains why these regulators must be stopped to secure America’s private sector job creation, economic prosperity, and energy future.”[/quote] Sillybillies

4:57pm Sat 15 Dec 12

ColdAsChristmas says...

The letters of a couple of alarmists. Not that long ago they were telling us that we need to come off fossil fuel because we were at 'Peak oil.' Well now it seems we have plenty of it but they still don't want us to enjoy the benefits of the Earth's fruits. Let me remind the carbon phobics one more time: There has been NO global warming since 1997 and calling it climate change instead does not make that fact go away.
Mr Vassie hit the nail on the head when he compared the population of North Dakota to the UK, that is the problem he should be focusing on.
Philip Jones of the CRU admitted recently that he didn't really understand natural variation in climate, hence all these dooms day scenarios are based on a minute amount of man made CO2. Yes I'm talking about something like16 parts per million atmospherically.
Put simply as someone who understands a little Meteorology the current mild and damp, often windy weather is coming from the Atlantic, previously we endured very cold high pressure and still conditions from the East. Our record recorded freeze in December 2010 was a result of Polar oscillation. You name a weather phenomenon and there is a Meteorological explanation for it. The interesting thing is that man made CO2 doesn't even come into it though it does raise a lot of tax!
I wonder how many pensioners have lost their savings by being sold carbon credits, another spin off from this ponzi scheme.
Shale gas, bring it on and quickly before we all freeze to death.
The letters of a couple of alarmists. Not that long ago they were telling us that we need to come off fossil fuel because we were at 'Peak oil.' Well now it seems we have plenty of it but they still don't want us to enjoy the benefits of the Earth's fruits. Let me remind the carbon phobics one more time: There has been NO global warming since 1997 and calling it climate change instead does not make that fact go away. Mr Vassie hit the nail on the head when he compared the population of North Dakota to the UK, that is the problem he should be focusing on. Philip Jones of the CRU admitted recently that he didn't really understand natural variation in climate, hence all these dooms day scenarios are based on a minute amount of man made CO2. Yes I'm talking about something like16 parts per million atmospherically. Put simply as someone who understands a little Meteorology the current mild and damp, often windy weather is coming from the Atlantic, previously we endured very cold high pressure and still conditions from the East. Our record recorded freeze in December 2010 was a result of Polar oscillation. You name a weather phenomenon and there is a Meteorological explanation for it. The interesting thing is that man made CO2 doesn't even come into it though it does raise a lot of tax! I wonder how many pensioners have lost their savings by being sold carbon credits, another spin off from this ponzi scheme. Shale gas, bring it on and quickly before we all freeze to death. ColdAsChristmas

6:59pm Sat 15 Dec 12

ColdAsChristmas says...

I really should answer to what Mark calls 'overwhelming scientific consensus.' Science is data and evidence based not consensus. I'll give you an example of consensus: The BBC invited 28 Eco warriors (28gate) to a secret conference in January 2006 where of course they decided that global warming was happening and that the evidence was so overwhelming that the sceptic standpoint should not be heard on the BBC. (There was no sceptic invited to say otherwise)These 28 (Only 3 actual scientists and none in Climate or Meteorology) were reported as being experts. Such was the embarrassment of the BBC, they spent a fortune in trying to keep the names secret. At that point the BBC had heavily invested into renewable energy for their pension fund)
There is no evidence that man made CO2 causes global warming and all of the IPCC predictions have failed to materialise, the most exaggerated report was produced in 2007 and since then there has been a lot of back tracking.
As for consensus, it just depends on who is in and who is out. Climate gate December 2009 let the cat out of the bag where sceptics were excluded from the pal (peer) review system.
Mark mentions the washout Summer (2012) as a symptom of global warming, well, 1912 was an even wetter summer, was that down to man made CO2 also? Storm Sandy hitting New York, nothing unprecedented: In 1938 a category 5 Hurricane hit New York, was that global warming too?
The reason I write at length on this topic is because I can't stand back and see the population brainwashed like the Germans were in the 1930's.
I really should answer to what Mark calls 'overwhelming scientific consensus.' Science is data and evidence based not consensus. I'll give you an example of consensus: The BBC invited 28 Eco warriors (28gate) to a secret conference in January 2006 where of course they decided that global warming was happening and that the evidence was so overwhelming that the sceptic standpoint should not be heard on the BBC. (There was no sceptic invited to say otherwise)These 28 (Only 3 actual scientists and none in Climate or Meteorology) were reported as being experts. Such was the embarrassment of the BBC, they spent a fortune in trying to keep the names secret. At that point the BBC had heavily invested into renewable energy for their pension fund) There is no evidence that man made CO2 causes global warming and all of the IPCC predictions have failed to materialise, the most exaggerated report was produced in 2007 and since then there has been a lot of back tracking. As for consensus, it just depends on who is in and who is out. Climate gate December 2009 let the cat out of the bag where sceptics were excluded from the pal (peer) review system. Mark mentions the washout Summer (2012) as a symptom of global warming, well, 1912 was an even wetter summer, was that down to man made CO2 also? Storm Sandy hitting New York, nothing unprecedented: In 1938 a category 5 Hurricane hit New York, was that global warming too? The reason I write at length on this topic is because I can't stand back and see the population brainwashed like the Germans were in the 1930's. ColdAsChristmas

12:38pm Sun 16 Dec 12

last of the mandms says...

Are you seriously comparing a debate about climate change with the rise of national socialism in the 30's? Come on CAC I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this but a little less hysteria might just help your "crusade".
Are you seriously comparing a debate about climate change with the rise of national socialism in the 30's? Come on CAC I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this but a little less hysteria might just help your "crusade". last of the mandms

2:25pm Sun 16 Dec 12

ColdAsChristmas says...

Not in totality last of but some of the techniques are there such as a mass propaganda campaign, control of most of the media inc the BBC. Then consider the schools of learning: Algore's PowerPoint slide show including major errors at the cost of £Millions were sent to every state secondary school. There was no balance such as also sending out Channel 4's 'the great global warming swindle to contrast with. State funding means the Universities are in on the act too.
The Church has also got onto this bandwagon and to some this is the new religion.
Where as the Nazi's turned their hate towards Jews and minorities the warmers do this to non believers in global warming.Gordon Brown even used the term 'flat earther's.' He was also keen on the 'New world order!
I could go on but I hope you can see some similarity.
Not in totality last of but some of the techniques are there such as a mass propaganda campaign, control of most of the media inc the BBC. Then consider the schools of learning: Algore's PowerPoint slide show including major errors at the cost of £Millions were sent to every state secondary school. There was no balance such as also sending out Channel 4's 'the great global warming swindle to contrast with. State funding means the Universities are in on the act too. The Church has also got onto this bandwagon and to some this is the new religion. Where as the Nazi's turned their hate towards Jews and minorities the warmers do this to non believers in global warming.Gordon Brown even used the term 'flat earther's.' He was also keen on the 'New world order! I could go on but I hope you can see some similarity. ColdAsChristmas

5:04pm Sun 16 Dec 12

last of the mandms says...

Hysteria to hysterical in one move "Mornington Crescent".
Hysteria to hysterical in one move "Mornington Crescent". last of the mandms

9:46pm Sun 16 Dec 12

Jam tomorrow says...

It's a bit risky breaking 'Godwins Law' Coldaschristmas but in this case you may be correct. I don't believe in Man-made-Global-warm
ing but if I worked in the public sector I would probably think twice before making a post (albeit anonymous) like this one.
It's a bit risky breaking 'Godwins Law' Coldaschristmas but in this case you may be correct. I don't believe in Man-made-Global-warm ing but if I worked in the public sector I would probably think twice before making a post (albeit anonymous) like this one. Jam tomorrow

10:39am Mon 17 Dec 12

The Great Buda says...

Its alright, when he gets banned and needs a new user name he can use "Mad as a March Hare".
Its alright, when he gets banned and needs a new user name he can use "Mad as a March Hare". The Great Buda

11:17am Mon 17 Dec 12

Jam tomorrow says...

But he isn't mad Buda, you have missed the point. Thousands upon thousands do not believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming but are afraid to say so as it could effect their employment. Google 'warming denial', it's frightening. Freedom of speech is on the line with this one.
But he isn't mad Buda, you have missed the point. Thousands upon thousands do not believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming but are afraid to say so as it could effect their employment. Google 'warming denial', it's frightening. Freedom of speech is on the line with this one. Jam tomorrow

6:15pm Mon 17 Dec 12

strangebuttrue? says...

See I said a couple of weeks ago that it would not be long before some lobbyist came on and told me that the unusual climatic conditions, it has been freezing for the last two years, are due to global warming. Off to get another jumper on BRRRRRRRR.
See I said a couple of weeks ago that it would not be long before some lobbyist came on and told me that the unusual climatic conditions, it has been freezing for the last two years, are due to global warming. Off to get another jumper on BRRRRRRRR. strangebuttrue?

12:35am Tue 18 Dec 12

ColdAsChristmas says...

Thanks jamT, you have a sound mind. Interestingly, I wanted to give a talk on Global Warming, the facts and the fiction to my University but was told it would break the constitution. Yet they can award a PhD for a dissertation with evidence based around the Michael Mann 'Hockey Stick.'
Check out the psychology of global warming, it starts with scaring children with nursery rhymes and bed time stories and ends with worse case scenarios that are then massively exaggerated. But if you don't buy it the men in white coats might take you away. It is called the bandwagon effect except the wheels of this waggon are coming off as they always do.
I'll just paste you an extract of a letter from the Global Warming foundation (Sceptical) to the DG of the BBC with regard to their so called panel of 28 climate experts they are trying to keep secret.(Available on the Internet):

'We refer to the now notorious seminar on global warming held in 2006, involving 28 senior BBC staff and 28 outsiders. As the BBC Trust subsequently explained, ‘The BBC has held a high-level seminar with some of the best scientific experts, and has come to the view that the weight of evidence no longer justifies equal space being given to the opponents of the consensus ‘. Ever since then, the BBC has fought tooth and nail, at considerable public expense, to keep secret the identity of ‘the best scientific experts’.

As you may be aware, it now emerges that, of the 28 present, there were only two (hand-picked) climate scientists; and the bulk of the rest were either green activists (including two from Greenpeace alone) or non-scientists with a vested interest in promoting renewable energy. So the BBC stands convicted not only of culpable imbalance, but also of rank dishonesty.'
Thanks jamT, you have a sound mind. Interestingly, I wanted to give a talk on Global Warming, the facts and the fiction to my University but was told it would break the constitution. Yet they can award a PhD for a dissertation with evidence based around the Michael Mann 'Hockey Stick.' Check out the psychology of global warming, it starts with scaring children with nursery rhymes and bed time stories and ends with worse case scenarios that are then massively exaggerated. But if you don't buy it the men in white coats might take you away. It is called the bandwagon effect except the wheels of this waggon are coming off as they always do. I'll just paste you an extract of a letter from the Global Warming foundation (Sceptical) to the DG of the BBC with regard to their so called panel of 28 climate experts they are trying to keep secret.(Available on the Internet): 'We refer to the now notorious seminar on global warming held in 2006, involving 28 senior BBC staff and 28 outsiders. As the BBC Trust subsequently explained, ‘The BBC has held a high-level seminar with some of the best scientific experts, and has come to the view that the weight of evidence no longer justifies equal space being given to the opponents of the consensus [on climate change and climate change policies]‘. Ever since then, the BBC has fought tooth and nail, at considerable public expense, to keep secret the identity of ‘the best scientific experts’. As you may be aware, it now emerges that, of the 28 present, there were only two (hand-picked) climate scientists; and the bulk of the rest were either green activists (including two from Greenpeace alone) or non-scientists with a vested interest in promoting renewable energy. So the BBC stands convicted not only of culpable imbalance, but also of rank dishonesty.' ColdAsChristmas

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