York traders face ban on A-boards (From York Press)
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York traders face ban on A-boards
10:15am Wednesday 6th March 2013 in Business news
By Mark Stead, Political Reporter
Jason Hawkins, landlord of the Three Tuns and Blue Boar pubs with one of his signs
ADVERTISING A-boards could be banned from York’s city-centre pavements, four years after traders and the council struck a compromise deal.
City of York Council said a recent check on A-boards found about 150 causing obstructions, and the authority said they had hampered attempts to reduce street clutter. A “zero-tolerance” policy may now be introduced.
City-centre businesses who use boards said the suggestion was “ridiculous” and would hit trade.
In 2008, the council threatened businesses who did not remove A-boards with a £2,500 fine over fears they would block pavements and cause accidents, but relented the following year, telling traders no action was likely if boards were propped against buildings.
A report by scrutiny officers which will go before the council’s community safety overview and scrutiny committee next week said a “reduction in resources” meant the issue was “not being as vigorously acted upon as in the past”.
It said: “This level of obstruction of the footway is becoming a growing concern and is seen as a very real problem for those who are blind or partially sighted, or need to use a wheelchair.
“Bearing in mind the re-emergence of A-boards in the city centre, much of the benefit of the council’s de-cluttering work has also been lost.”
The report said Coun Dave Merrett, the council’s cabinet member for transport, planning and sustainability, was considering a city-centre zero tolerance zone.
It said: “It has been recognised the viability of some businesses which benefit from boards, due to their location being off the beaten track, may be affected, so this is being looked at to try to overcome the problem while still ensuring the majority of boards are removed.”
It said A-boards had also become a problem in other areas, including Clifton Green. A city-centre A-board policy is set to come into force early in 2013/14.
Jason Hawkins, who runs the Three Tuns and Blue Boar pubs in Coppergate and Castlegate, within the provisional zero-tolerance zone, and who uses A-boards at both, said: “It’s utterly ridiculous, especially in the current economic climate when the council should be supporting local businesses.
“Times are difficult enough and A-boards are a really good and relatively cheap way for businesses to promote themselves. Most are responsible and ensure they don’t block pavements.”
Sue Hardie, owner of the Hairy Fig cafe and delicatessen in Fossgate, which is also within the potential banning area, said: “Our boards are not in anybody’s way - small businesses have to advertise and should be allowed to.”
Comments(48)
monkeyhanger
says...
10:32am Wed 6 Mar 13
tives will be considered.
Pete the Brickie
says...
10:54am Wed 6 Mar 13
Throwing away all purpose made advertising boards and replacing them with crude, badly cut cardboard.
Onto the cardboard draw an arrow in felt pen pointing in the general direction of your business.
Underneath the arrow write a generic description of your trade and price of your service, Butcher, Steak £5.00lb for instance.
Attach the carboard to an old mountain bike and secure the bike to any item of street/safety furniture maintained by the council.
An example of this can be seen on Melrosegate pointing in the direction of Fourth Avenue although I have to admit I have actually struggled to find an establishment whose owner fitted the description "Barber" when I followed it.
wilko27
says...
11:12am Wed 6 Mar 13
If the A boards are causing an obstruction then reposition them not remove them.
HeidTheBa'
says...
11:59am Wed 6 Mar 13
Maquis
says...
12:12pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963
says...
12:13pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Maquis
says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
It is intentionally vague to give sensible bureaucrat a way to prevent unnecessary serious obstructions, and avoid loopholes created by specific rules.
This is just another anti business decision made by a council who want to punish anybody who chooses to set up a business, employ people in York, and pay the massive rates that they charge.
What we need are guidelines as to what size a-boards are acceptable, the quantity and locations. An outright ban is a ridiculous anti business decision.
Buzz Light-year
says...
12:56pm Wed 6 Mar 13
HeidTheBa' wrote:
Or is this just another solution in search of a problem?
Nice turn of phrase, very apt.
Theoutsider21
says...
1:06pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Buzz Light-year wrote:Spot on, typical of most local authorities - making cuts but still have staff with nothing better to do than hound local businesses!
HeidTheBa' wrote:
Or is this just another solution in search of a problem?
Nice turn of phrase, very apt.
alfie
says...
1:54pm Wed 6 Mar 13
PKH
says...
1:57pm Wed 6 Mar 13
bob the builder
says...
2:31pm Wed 6 Mar 13
captain_nick
says...
2:39pm Wed 6 Mar 13
But a way for them to quickly get rid of A-boards would be to use an A-hole...there's plenty of those at the Council currently doing nothing worthwhile.
mjr119
says...
2:52pm Wed 6 Mar 13
We haven't got the staff, so your business will have to suffer.
An A-board outside a business where the size and shape has been thought about so as to minimise disruption is completely reasonable.
When the streets of City Centre are as narrow as they are in York, most people don't notice the name above the door of the shop - so at least an A-Board gives them a chance.
Agree on size and placement, put a fine in place for acting outside of the parameters. Then just send someone round once a month to monitor - it doesn't take up much of a resource.
Silver
says...
2:55pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Pete the Brickie wrote:Pete you forgot to mention that when they pull you in front of court for said acts do not pay the fine issued
There is a simple solution for the traders here to avoid fines. I recommend:
Throwing away all purpose made advertising boards and replacing them with crude, badly cut cardboard.
Onto the cardboard draw an arrow in felt pen pointing in the general direction of your business.
Underneath the arrow write a generic description of your trade and price of your service, Butcher, Steak £5.00lb for instance.
Attach the carboard to an old mountain bike and secure the bike to any item of street/safety furniture maintained by the council.
An example of this can be seen on Melrosegate pointing in the direction of Fourth Avenue although I have to admit I have actually struggled to find an establishment whose owner fitted the description "Barber" when I followed it.
/kev/null
says...
3:10pm Wed 6 Mar 13
It's harder to come up with a solution for wheelchair users but my first thought is A boards set at a shallow enough angle for them to be driven over. Taking care not to hit the Safety Buskers of course.
GixerGaz
says...
3:58pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Ichabod76
says...
4:08pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Overproof
says...
4:55pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Not many, if any.
I suspect the council are trying to imagine a problem that isn't really there.
eeoodares
says...
5:56pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Maquis
says...
6:33pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Overproof wrote:The sole reason of A-Boards existence is to be seen, so anybody using the blind and partially sighted argument is onto a looser from the off.
I wonder how many blind or disabled people have actually complained to the council about the problem of A-boards ?
Not many, if any.
I suspect the council are trying to imagine a problem that isn't really there.
If they are difficult to see, then they are not doing their job. The blind do not go out without the assistance of a dog or a stick, so they should not have the problem of tripping over an inanimate object.
This argument was brought out last time the council tried to harm the local businesses with this issue and other than to the group who want all kerbs, lamp posts, and other people removed from their way just in case, it was proved that this was not enough of a problem, in fact it helped some people navigate as street signs and shop names are usually placed at a height making it difficult to see.
Buzz Light-year
says...
7:00pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Back and Beyond
says...
7:54pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Sillybillies
says...
8:02pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Maquis says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
It's the law and as such should be strictly enforced as parliament intended. Also applies to cars parked on pavements.
PinzaC55
says...
8:05pm Wed 6 Mar 13
I will make a private prediction that in 5 years the A boards will still be there and COYC will still need "new powers" to tackle them. At the rate they are going COYC will have more powers than Superman, Batman and the Green Lantern combined.
Magicman!
says...
9:21pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Maquis wrote:The council administration: from LibDem to labour. And we all know Labour don't actually listen to what the people want and do their own thing.
This fight was had in 2008-9 and won by the traders. The council admitted that it was wrong back then, what has changed now?
--
A city-centre A-board policy is set to come into force early in 2013/14.
As far as vague timescales go, this is a pretty good example! if it's early 2014 then it's not early 2013, if it's later in 2013 then it's not 'early' at all!
--
The council is doing a blanket scheme to get rid of anything seen as 'street clutter' according to Ron Cooke, who must have OCD or something as quite literally everything is being marked for removal: street lights, CCTV Camera columns, traffic light poles, sign poles....
Maquis
says...
9:29pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:If it was the law was as cut and dry as you imply, it would criminalize anybody who stopped on the pavements for any reason whatsoever, and those mothers who dare stop with a pushchair should be locked up straight away.
Maquis says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
It's the law and as such should be strictly enforced as parliament intended. Also applies to cars parked on pavements.
The "law" as you call it is not at all a law, it is a guideline and someone once again in the council has decided to push it to its limits to punish those who want to create jobs and income for the city.
Maquis
says...
9:31pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Daley Mayall
says...
10:01pm Wed 6 Mar 13
I'd ban them during school hols and at weekends, definitely.
harrygilmore
says...
10:05pm Wed 6 Mar 13
HRH Lady Muck
says...
10:08pm Wed 6 Mar 13
pedalling paul
says...
10:22pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Geoffers
says...
11:14pm Wed 6 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:Laws are for the guidance of Wise Men and the obeyance of Fools!
Maquis says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
It's the law and as such should be strictly enforced as parliament intended. Also applies to cars parked on pavements.
akaroa
says...
11:39pm Wed 6 Mar 13
ouseswimmer
says...
6:56am Thu 7 Mar 13
postie89
says...
8:38am Thu 7 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:Completely agree as a postie i come across this problem day in day out mainly cars sometimes have to walk on the road to get around the car, but as far as A boards goes i don't see the problem all this will do is damage businesses at a time when trade is most needed.
Maquis says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
It's the law and as such should be strictly enforced as parliament intended. Also applies to cars parked on pavements.
Yorkie41
says...
9:06am Thu 7 Mar 13
postie89 wrote:As an Ex postman of some 37 years I agree with you to the extent that if I where a Partial sited or Blind person then I could have problems also mums and dads trying to negotiate the footpath with a pram or buggy . Also Just like ugly dustbins in streets they can look very unsightly.
Sillybillies wrote:Completely agree as a postie i come across this problem day in day out mainly cars sometimes have to walk on the road to get around the car, but as far as A boards goes i don't see the problem all this will do is damage businesses at a time when trade is most needed.
Maquis says...
12:24pm Wed 6 Mar 13
gmc_1963 wrote:
Obstruction of ANY pavement is an offence and not just in the city centre.
That is an interpretation of a rule, taken to an extreme and this is not how it is intended to be used.
It's the law and as such should be strictly enforced as parliament intended. Also applies to cars parked on pavements.
Mr Trellis
says...
11:33am Thu 7 Mar 13
If CYC are concerned about safety they first need to get all the bikes off the pavement then their s***** markets that permenantly block Parliament Street.
/kev/null
says...
12:21pm Thu 7 Mar 13
Sillybillies
says...
3:04pm Thu 7 Mar 13
Maquis says...
9:29pm Wed 6 Mar 13
If it was the law was as cut and dry as you imply, it would criminalize anybody who stopped on the pavements for any reason whatsoever, and those mothers who dare stop with a pushchair should be locked up straight away.
The "law" as you call it is not at all a law, it is a guideline and someone once again in the council has decided to push it to its limits to punish those who want to create jobs and income for the city.
It's the law full stop, and it's about time it was enforced -
Highways Act 1980
S148 Penalty for depositing things or pitching booths etc. on highway.
If, without lawful authority or excuse—
(a)a person deposits on a made-up carriageway any dung, compost or other material for dressing land, or any rubbish, or
(b)a person deposits on any highway that consists of or comprises a made-up carriageway any dung, compost or other material for dressing land, or any rubbish, within 15 feet from the centre of that carriageway, or
(c)a person deposits any thing whatsoever on a highway to the interruption of any user of the highway, or
(d)a hawker or other itinerant trader pitches a booth, stall or stand, or encamps, on a highway.
he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding .
S149 Removal of things so deposited on highways as to be a nuisance etc.
(1)If any thing is so deposited on a highway as to constitute a nuisance, the highway authority for the highway may by notice require the person who deposited it there to remove it forthwith and if he fails to comply with the notice the authority may make a complaint to a magistrates’ court for a removal and disposal order under this section.
(2)If the highway authority for any highway have reasonable grounds for considering—
(a)that any thing unlawfully deposited on the highway constitutes a danger (including a danger caused by obstructing the view) to users of the highway, and
(b)that the thing in question ought to be removed without the delay involved in giving notice or obtaining a removal and disposal order from a magistrates’ court under this section,the authority may remove the thing forthwith.
etc etc
monkeyhanger
says...
5:56pm Thu 7 Mar 13
7:54pm Wed 6 Mar 13
I think A boards are discriminatory they should be allowed with the proviso that they also display the text in Braille.”
Also in all world languages,audio for the blind,sign language for hearing dogs,writing at a low level for dwarfs,etc etc.
Carch690
says...
7:19pm Thu 7 Mar 13
Funnyian
says...
8:07pm Thu 7 Mar 13
LEAVE YORK BUSINESSES ALONE
PinzaC55
says...
8:48pm Thu 7 Mar 13
Carch690 wrote:I noticed the sign on the takeaway in North Street too. I find it difficult to believe it was given planning permission.
What is more concerning than A boards are the despicable neon boards that have appeared on a takeaway on Matmer House - Hull Road and one on the corner of North Street. The council need to rid of these before we begin to look like Blackpool and become visual from space. Disgusting!
Maquis
says...
1:15am Fri 8 Mar 13
Sillybillies wrote:You have proved my point for me. It is open for interpretation.
Maquis says...
9:29pm Wed 6 Mar 13
If it was the law was as cut and dry as you imply, it would criminalize anybody who stopped on the pavements for any reason whatsoever, and those mothers who dare stop with a pushchair should be locked up straight away.
The "law" as you call it is not at all a law, it is a guideline and someone once again in the council has decided to push it to its limits to punish those who want to create jobs and income for the city.
It's the law full stop, and it's about time it was enforced -
Highways Act 1980
S148 Penalty for depositing things or pitching booths etc. on highway.
If, without lawful authority or excuse—
(a)a person deposits on a made-up carriageway any dung, compost or other material for dressing land, or any rubbish, or
(b)a person deposits on any highway that consists of or comprises a made-up carriageway any dung, compost or other material for dressing land, or any rubbish, within 15 feet from the centre of that carriageway, or
(c)a person deposits any thing whatsoever on a highway to the interruption of any user of the highway, or
(d)a hawker or other itinerant trader pitches a booth, stall or stand, or encamps, on a highway.
he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding .
S149 Removal of things so deposited on highways as to be a nuisance etc.
(1)If any thing is so deposited on a highway as to constitute a nuisance, the highway authority for the highway may by notice require the person who deposited it there to remove it forthwith and if he fails to comply with the notice the authority may make a complaint to a magistrates’ court for a removal and disposal order under this section.
(2)If the highway authority for any highway have reasonable grounds for considering—
(a)that any thing unlawfully deposited on the highway constitutes a danger (including a danger caused by obstructing the view) to users of the highway, and
(b)that the thing in question ought to be removed without the delay involved in giving notice or obtaining a removal and disposal order from a magistrates’ court under this section,the authority may remove the thing forthwith.
etc etc
If it constitutes a nuisance. It's only a nuisance if it causes problems. Most do not. There are some which do and that is why basic guidelines are necessary, not a blanket ban.
If it were anything that causes obstructions then the German market and food markets on parliament street must go. In this case the council "choose" to not class this as an obstruction and allow them.
Again it is deliberately vague to allow for sensible interpretation, not to prevent employers from making a living.
ChilliPepper87
says...
4:54pm Fri 8 Mar 13
alfie wrote:too right. So called established businesses like the hairy fig take up too much space, leaving nothing for others. the banner above fossgate is advertising enough for them.
Ban them all! its not fair some business's get free advertising and some are not allowed.
why do they need to obstruct way for prams, disabled people etc?
There are so many a boards in the streets, i nearly fell over one on Goodramgate today outside a clothes shop. Its becoming ridiculous.
Maquis
says...
5:25pm Fri 8 Mar 13
ChilliPepper87 wrote:How the hell can you "nearly fall over" something 3-4 foot high, designed to be seen?
alfie wrote:too right. So called established businesses like the hairy fig take up too much space, leaving nothing for others. the banner above fossgate is advertising enough for them.
Ban them all! its not fair some business's get free advertising and some are not allowed.
why do they need to obstruct way for prams, disabled people etc?
There are so many a boards in the streets, i nearly fell over one on Goodramgate today outside a clothes shop. Its becoming ridiculous.
Walking without due care and attention methinks.
The big banner across fossgate does little to advertise individual businesses and what their day to day offerings are.
Perhaps if the shops closed their doors and went away your walk would be less disturbed, it would also have the side benefit of removing the annoying people from the streets so you can walk about in your own little world, as lets not forget, nothing else matters to you!
asd says...
10:26am Wed 6 Mar 13